Omega Owners Forum

Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Latchie_3.0v6 on 29 February 2012, 13:13:13

Title: Diff questions
Post by: Latchie_3.0v6 on 29 February 2012, 13:13:13
Going to look at a LSD out of a 98 mv6 on Saturday.
Will this fit my car 99 elite
How can I tell if it is a LSD not just welded.
What would be best diff oil to use
Think that's bout it, but if anyone has any other thing I should look for just let me know

Cheers
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 29 February 2012, 13:17:53
 best oil question : factory spec, ep80 grade oil but too thick especially in winter .. so 75W90 is recommended..

got the question wrong  its for gearbox, for differential EP 90 or ep140 depending on climate..

 
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: Kevin Wood on 29 February 2012, 13:18:14
If it's an LSD you will see two planetary gear shafts at 90 degrees, if you look into the hole where the driveshafts locate. Open diffs have just a single shaft.

If it's welded, you won't be able to turn the driveshafts individually. If it's an open diff, this will be possible. If it's an LSD, it might be stiff to turn one wheel independently of the other, but should be possible.

BOA90LS is a common recommendation for the oil.
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: Kevin Wood on 29 February 2012, 13:22:18
best oil question :  factory spec, ep80 grade oil but too thick especially in winter .. so 75W90 is recommended..

My understanding is that EP oils are not necessarily compatible with plate LSDs. You need an oil with an "LS" suffix which will have the correct friction modifiers and won't contaminate the clutch plates.
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 29 February 2012, 13:27:36
best oil question :  factory spec, ep80 grade oil but too thick especially in winter .. so 75W90 is recommended..

My understanding is that EP oils are not necessarily compatible with plate LSDs. You need an oil with an "LS" suffix which will have the correct friction modifiers and won't contaminate the clutch plates.

dont know about contamination but  a quick search brings too many ep 90  or ep140 type oils for lsd

http://ebookbrowse.com/ep-90-gl5-limited-slip-msds-2-pdf-d107846895
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 29 February 2012, 13:49:46
Omega LSD requires an EP90 with friction modifiers.

Original fit would have been EP90 with seperate additives (and this is what a dealer will supply) but LSD oils are available which have the friction modifiers already in and hence the recommendation of BOA90LS
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: zirk on 29 February 2012, 13:56:42
Also worth checking what Diff Ratio your going to end up with, if its ex plod could be different, not to mention swapping between Manual  / Auto etc.

 ;)
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 29 February 2012, 14:00:19
I have checked the ep type lsd oils..

seems like they use a special type of EP modifiers and their sulphur content is non-active as fas as I understand..

"EP mineral gear oils are used more extensively in worm gears. Under conditions of high pressure and temperature, the EP (antiscuff) additive reacts with the metal surface to form a soft, slippery chemical layer which prevents severe wear and welding. Previously, there was a concern that sulfur-phosphorous EP additives would react with the bronze gear. However, new EP additive technology used by most of the major lubricant suppliers has reduced the corrosive attack by utilizing nonactive sulfur. EP lubricants work particularly well when shock loading occurs. EP gear oils also protect steel gears better than compounded gear oils. "

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/169/worm-gear-lubrication

Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: 2woody on 29 February 2012, 15:54:49
it is the "hypoid" additive in most axle oils which poisons LSD plates.
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: Latchie_3.0v6 on 29 February 2012, 16:40:19
Thanks for all the quick answers. Just another Q how much oil does diff take or is there a marker on side or anything.
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: tigers_gonads on 29 February 2012, 18:38:45
I got just over 1 ltr in my standard dif plus a tube of additive
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: Latchie_3.0v6 on 04 March 2012, 16:23:45
Just fitted the LSD that I bought and it doesn't seem to lock, would there be any reason for this, I was thinking maybe low on oil
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: bootie on 04 March 2012, 16:28:48
When you say it doesn't seem to lock, what have you tried doing?

Best test is on gravel, plenty of revs then pop the clutch, should get a nice long 11, i.e. both rears spinning and leaving tracks.
Seeing where you live it might be easier to find some wet grass! LOL
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: Latchie_3.0v6 on 04 March 2012, 16:34:29
I tried doing a few donuts in a private place :P. Wheels only spun one wheel but I was told that unless diff in tightened it can take quite a bit to get diff to lock.
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: bootie on 04 March 2012, 16:43:08
I would do a straight line test rather than donuts, see if that gets the desired results.
As for 'tightening up' I'm afraid I have no knowledge of this, sorry.
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: Latchie_3.0v6 on 04 March 2012, 17:59:22
Does anyone know if omega diff is a VicsousLSD
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: HockeyDave55 on 04 March 2012, 18:09:10
I have a similar problem, should be an LSD but jack one wheel off the ground and I would think I could turn it with a load of resistance, I have none???
Not trying to hijack your thread, just getting in here so I can pick up the tips. :)
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: Latchie_3.0v6 on 04 March 2012, 18:24:39
I have a similar problem, should be an LSD but jack one wheel off the ground and I would think I could turn it with a load of resistance, I have none???
Not trying to hijack your thread, just getting in here so I can pick up the tips. :)

No problem mate.

My mate has ex plod with tightened diff and she will go round on the spot. So I'm thinking of getting it tightened soon. I know for my skyline the shims to tighten were £3 each so hope the same for miggy.
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: aaronjb on 04 March 2012, 18:53:14
Does anyone know if omega diff is a VicsousLSD

Nope it's a plate diff.
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: mv6tom on 04 March 2012, 20:16:12
you have any luck yet with the boy that shims them 
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: Latchie_3.0v6 on 04 March 2012, 20:21:48
you have any luck yet with the boy that shims them

Hasn't got back to me mucker :y
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: Latchie_3.0v6 on 05 March 2012, 18:13:32
Does anyone know if omega diff is a VicsousLSD

Nope it's a plate diff.

Can the diff be refubished by any chance
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: aaronjb on 05 March 2012, 18:38:13
Does anyone know if omega diff is a VicsousLSD

Nope it's a plate diff.

Can the diff be refubished by any chance

I don't see why not - I imagine the bits are all available.. I'm no expert, though - 2woody (here) has probably forgotten more about diffs than I know. Maybe he'll show up here now I've mentioned his name.. :)
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: ngrainqey on 05 March 2012, 19:30:27
it should lock up after a certain degree of slip, IIRC is it 45% or something?
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: Latchie_3.0v6 on 05 March 2012, 19:37:09
Thats what I was expecting but I think maybe inside diff is worn down possibly. There is a little bit of resistance when turning wheel by hand. But when I try to throw her round she only spins one wheel so thinking maybe diff is loose or something, I don't know anything about diff's but I do know that my mates locks nearly straight away.
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: ngrainqey on 05 March 2012, 19:46:09
have you replaced oil? how many miles has it done with plod and since? i dont know how long the friction plates last but if very high milage and a donut fanatic previously then might need new friction plates
alex
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: Latchie_3.0v6 on 05 March 2012, 20:03:05
There was 130,000 miles on the car it came off. 
Can you buy friction plates separate and are they specialist job to fit.
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: ngrainqey on 05 March 2012, 21:07:10
Vx i think or gearbox rebuilders wil beable to do it i think
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: Latchie_3.0v6 on 05 March 2012, 22:42:09
Ok thanks I'll leave it at that. I'll have a nosy about and see what I can get done. Thanks everyone for all the feedback.
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: Zippy2012 on 06 March 2012, 00:48:42
Ok thanks I'll leave it at that. I'll have a nosy about and see what I can get done. Thanks everyone for all the feedback.

if you can find anybody who can refub an lsd let me know as i think mine is also buggered or contaminated plates in mine??
when cold it leaves lovely 11s up the tarmac but when hot it only spins 1 & intermitant on other how can i explane??
ok 1 wheel does _______ other ,,,,,,,,,, but its always the o/s that does the ,,,,,,,, n/s does ______ ???
& other thing it does on rounderbouts it snatches on cornering locking a wheel bringing on traction control but with TC off its a complete bitch when its hot!
i wonder if they do a Diff flush?? or once contaminated there fked...???
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: HockeyDave55 on 06 March 2012, 06:11:13
I've had a look at the workshop manual and it shows a great exploded view showing all the assembly including the plates, I will try to get a look down one side to see the "X" then go from there, maybe a rebuild is coming my way????
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: 2woody on 07 March 2012, 22:42:14
apologies for the absence....

yes, Omega B limited-slip differentials can be refurbished, but at the current cost of parts, you'll be able to buy a replacement diff and the car to which it's attached for less money. Sorry, but rebuilding one is going to appeal to only the most hardcore of enthusiasts. The plate set is about £175, whilst the bearings are around £90 each and there's four of them.

The plate-type limited-slip diff works through a ramp and the plates. There's a ramp, up which the pivot shafts for the planet wheels move - and when they move, they impart an axial force to the clutches, hence the slip-reducing action. So, the locking factor depends on the angle of the slope and the "rate" of the clutches ( for that, read pre-load ). In the Omega B diff, the plate pre-tension can be changed by machining, but the slope angle cannot. You may get a small tightening through the plate tension.

I can build a diff to order, but please remember that there's my time on top of the parts prices.
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: HockeyDave55 on 08 March 2012, 06:07:41
Great explanation 2woody! Well... When I say great that is with exception to the costs you list!!! Holy cow!!! That is not cheep!
Ok, bottom line from you.... How do I check my LSD is working or indeed still fitted without taking shafts off?
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: HockeyDave55 on 08 March 2012, 20:04:41
2woody, are there alternative suppliers of parts? Who supplied the diff's to VX??
GKN makes all kinds of diff's and one looks exactly like the Omega unit, I might drop them a line...
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: 2woody on 08 March 2012, 20:55:40
Correction to your post - GKN made all kinds of diffs, the last being the Jaguar XJ40 unit, shortly before the diff-making facility was sold to Dana. Opel made their own I'm afraid. It could be ZF-related, but its certainly not a GKN product.

There is another possibility - but probably no cheaper. The Australian BTR diff ( now also owned by Dana ) is fitted into a casing that'll bolt directly into an Omega A rear subframe ( i.e. Carlton ). So if you can find a Carlton or Senator subframe and the corresponding BTR diff ( Lotus Carlton, Holden Commodore or Monaro, or TVR since 1994 ) and some Monza driveshafts ( as the diff has output flanges ), you can build yourself a very robust alternative. That's what I have in the Omega A race car.

The only reliable way to tell is by removing a driveshaft I'm afraid. Even so, it's not difficult.

Ignore what people will tell you about a wheel spinning backwards or vice-versa with the rear end suspended --- that's all bunkum.

you could do a mini-roundabout test - that's driving around the smallest mini roundabout you can find. The object is to spin up the inside rear wheel ( no LSD ) or get it sideways ( LSD ).

also, you'll find that if you set off from rest at full lock, slowly on a dry road, you'll hear the diff locking and unlocking, or rather you'll hear the tyres grabbing at the road surface - that's a good test if its still working
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: HockeyDave55 on 08 March 2012, 22:52:03
Thanks for the info (and the correction)  ;) you've given me/us plenty to think about.
Right, I'm off to eBay (.au).....
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: 2woody on 08 March 2012, 23:06:10
just don't get Holden driveshafts - the subframe on a Holden, although looking identical to the Carlton one is actually a couple of inches wider.

When I had the subframe off one of the Holdens, I did a bit of experimentation.
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: Zippy2012 on 08 March 2012, 23:21:02
sorry to hijak post but how can you easy find out the diff ratios? as the seller is not prepaired to strip it down!!

ive found a 3.0 auto diff as a cheep replacement till i can get my lsd fixed but they dont know the ratio...??

i need a 3.45 out of im told a 2.2dti as atmo im running a 3.90 but its crap on the motorway on a manual box!!

is it just the 2.2dti that uses a 3.45??? & what poss ratio is the 3.0 auto diff??

cheers  :y
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: Latchie_3.0v6 on 27 March 2012, 23:12:19
car seems to go round no bother now. ive noticed that when i give her a good going, the abs light comes on and then i cant turn t/c back on again.
ive also noticed that the car will go round better when this happens. when i turn car off and on again everything is back to normal.
just wondering is there any way i could have the abs disabled all the time just so the car will go round better all the time.
Title: Re: Diff questions
Post by: omegra on 13 April 2014, 14:03:39
casing that'll bolt directly into an Omega A rear subframe ( i.e. Carlton ). So if you can find a Carlton or Senator subframe and the corresponding BTR diff ( Lotus Carlton, Holden Commodore or Monaro, or TVR since 1994 ) and some Monza driveshafts ( as the diff has output flanges ), you can build yourself a very robust alternative. That's what I have in the Omega A race car.



i supose this has been tried but i take it that the monza diff wont take omega driveshafts if the output flanges are removed??