Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Bionic on 02 March 2012, 06:09:13
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:-\
Having read most posts that appear to be interesting I am now absolutely gobsmacked that a member has been dealt a hand of cards, that was to me, stacked.
I will mention no names and so cause no offence or reason for my being reprimanded in any manner. If I am reprimanded due to this post then all it serves to prove is that the forum has indeed lost its perspective and fairness to all members and a select few can do as they wish.
Someone please inform me exactly how a moderator can 'moderate' in a situation that involves a partner?
Logic and personal experience with my own tells me that no matter how it may be said that the moderation was an impartial process it cannot be simply because the moderators life would be made hell on earth if the moderator failed to support fully the partner even if the partner was at fault. That is how life is! The ones who have caused this latest kangaroo court to happen know who they are and other members who have read the relevant locked post will too.
I have read all of the content and nowhere within it can I see any reason for the victim to have to apologise. It is the complainant who needs to look in the mirror and turn down the over sensitive retaliation for a reply that was innocuous at best. How can 'terribly sorry old boy, I am a little tired' be offensive? Funnily enough the complainant has used the same term in previous posts many times ('boring' too if I remember correctly).
In future can we not expect that any moderation is performed by a totally independent person NOT related in any manner to the complainant? That would ensure that the process was fair and completely above board.
In closing I can understand what has happened because it happened very much the same way for me some time ago and by the same persons. The 'moderation' in that case was also biased due to the relationship. Some people can, and like to give it out but throw the rattle out of the cot when it is gave back to them. For the sake of the forums' reputation please grow up and act like adults.
Finally if the victim has been made by one means or another to have a 'rest' then so should the complainant. That has happened before too if I remember correctly. If the heat of the kitchen is too much to bear then the best thing would be to leave the kitchen would it not?
That’s enough said now, I will wait patiently for my ban, then if banned or reprimanded take it to the Global level to achieve fairness and true impartiality.
I make no apologies for the following text because it is in my best interests.
I have copied this post to ensure that if it is deleted then I will still retain the content to raise the matter until justice is seen to be done.
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+1
and very well said :y
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As said in numerous other posts, the matter is being dealt with.
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I'm probably going to regret this, but here goes ............
1) How do we mere humble "normal" members know that this isn't some contrived stunt by the seniors of OOF as has happened before? Simple, we don't and I wouldn't be surprised if everybody comes back and says that they were just having a laugh between themselves. Ha ha ha ..... NOT.
2) Car support = 100%, but TBH I get nervous about some other dialogue which often goes off at a tangent with opinions, opinions, opinions. People post and get replies on non car subjects - that's great, I've done it myself and contributed replies. Also via general discussion moral support sometimes sought and given. I have also received practical car support and 1:1 advice from members including purchase and loan of parts/tools advice etc and am very thankful and truly appreciative of that. I hope that I've also been able to reciprocate where I can. Can't be faulted and long may it continue - to me that's the true spirit of OOF.
3) However - I have also been burnt on more than one occasion where I've provided parts and not been paid. What can you do? It's not ebay and you go on trust, assuming people to be as good as their word - but they are not always. I've kept this to myself so far. In fact I'm not actually complaining - just using it as an example that things are not always as they seem and we all need to be careful.
I'll get off my soapbox now - but just wanted to express my views as a member of almost 3 years.
Sorry if I've offended anyone. :-[
Robert
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I'm probably going to regret this, but here goes ............
1) How do we mere humble "normal" members know that this isn't some contrived stunt by the seniors of OOF as has happened before? Simple, we don't and I wouldn't be surprised if everybody comes back and says that they were just having a laugh between themselves. Ha ha ha ..... NOT.
2) Car support = 100%, but TBH I get nervous about some other dialogue which often goes off at a tangent with opinions, opinions, opinions. People post and get replies on non car subjects - that's great, I've done it myself and contributed replies. Also via general discussion moral support sometimes sought and given. I have also received practical car support and 1:1 advice from members including purchase and loan of parts/tools advice etc and am very thankful and truly appreciative of that. I hope that I've also been able to reciprocate where I can. Can't be faulted and long may it continue - to me that's the true spirit of OOF.
3) However - I have also been burnt on more than one occasion where I've provided parts and not been paid. What can you do? It's not ebay and you go on trust, assuming people to be as good as their word - but they are not always. I've kept this to myself so far. In fact I'm not actually complaining - just using it as an example that things are not always as they seem and we all need to be careful.
I'll get off my soapbox now - but just wanted to express my views as a member of almost 3 years.
Sorry if I've offended anyone. :-[
Robert
Just my opinion ...but from the private conversations I have had with several people ... this is not, in any, way, shape, or form, a wind up. It is extremely serious and could, potentially, lead to the end of OOF.
I jest not.
I really wish I was wrong about this .. but I don't think I am .. :(
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Lets just hope that common sense prevails in that case then .............
Fingers crossed
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Entwood, I do hope you are wrong but....
:(
If this storm does turn out to be the end of the OOFers then it will be a very sad day for all of the members who support it. The pity is that it is the few who will see it become a reality due to their own over inflated opinions on how important they believe themselves to be. No-one is more important than anyone else and everyones opinion is a valid one in their own eyes. The opinion of others is may well be different but that does not affect the view of the poster and that is the view that should be respected. It is a real fool who could dispute that fact. What a sad and sorry this world would be if we all thought and acted alike :'(.
Only time will tell if can be healed at all, perhaps the damage already caused has now gone too far for too long without intervention.
I hope not.
One problem we could all do without and be better off for it are those who take offence too easily, and cry foul, yet do not hesitate to hand it out to someone else by the bucket load then run and hide. Add to that the overenthusiastic use of the 'quote' facility and there is a recipe for upset.
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TB has asked to leave the subject alone guys. It would make life easier for admin if we did.
Please? :)
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To the best of my knowledge and belief, there are no plans to close OOF.
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as passionate as everyone is about OOF as said and i would expect very time consuming Admin are trying to ressolve things
i have sat on the side lines and await a ressoloution that i very much hope moves on from this very sad sequence of events..before making my own mind up :y
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Talk of the end of OOF is both unfounded, ill-informed and premature.
That an incident, which is now under control, should result in such an outcome is scaremongering in my opinion.
Lets not take the same approach as the majority of the Uk press when posting ! ;D ;D :y
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If the incident is under control is there going to be some sort of announcment or post explaing what is happening or something similar
thanks
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Your right paul.lovejoy. The members should have some form of notice as to what is happening considering that the problem affect us all.
Hope it happens soon because it is quite obviously not going to go away or be forgotten. Too much damage has been done by either the lack of control or biased control in my view.
At least a formal notice would stop the presumptions and scaremongering.
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To the best of my knowledge and belief, there are no plans to close OOF.
thats good news.. a problem between members/admins can be solved within time.. and I must note
I dont see a big problem here as big as to end the forum.. everyone have bad times and every one can make mistakes..
a simple excuse of the both sides can make things simpler imo.. :)
however if the forum comes to an end thats disaster for all members.. :(
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Well said Cem :y
I blew up at a member on here for what I thought was him getting at me. A few nicely worded PM's and apologies exchanged and we get on, what I would say is we get on very well now, even though we have never met, it is possible to resolve differences with the written word only.
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Well said Cem :y
I blew up at a member on here for what I thought was him getting at me. A few nicely worded PM's and apologies exchanged and we get on, what I would say is we get on very well now, even though we have never met, it is possible to resolve differences with the written word only.
thanks Manta :y
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Before anyone else puts words into my mouth ... my ACTUAL words above were :
It is extremely serious and could, potentially, lead to the end of OOF.
At no point did I say OOF was closing.
I'm sure I am not the only person who was sat at Newent when a previous, and IMHO, less damaging "spat" was being debated.
Jamie (TB) expressed the view, as I recall, that he was so pissed of that he had been tempted to pull the plug, but had been dissuaded by other Admin. He alo expressed the view that he had better things to do with his time than babysit adults and it wouldn't happen again - I think those were his words but I could be wrong.
Given those views, I would be very surprised if the same thoughts were not present in his mind right now. I hope I'm wrong. However it is on that basis that my comment was made ...
If I'm right ... potentially, TB could pull the plug ... it is that serious.
So, ... please read the WORDS, and nothing else ???
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Before anyone else puts words into my mouth ... my ACTUAL words above were :
It is extremely serious and could, potentially, lead to the end of OOF.
At no point did I say OOF was closing.
I'm sure I am not the only person who was sat at Newent when a previous, and IMHO, less damaging "spat" was being debated.
Jamie (TB) expressed the view, as I recall, that he was so pissed of that he had been tempted to pull the plug, but had been dissuaded by other Admin. He alo expressed the view that he had better things to do with his time than babysit adults and it wouldn't happen again - I think those were his words but I could be wrong.
Given those views, I would be very surprised if the same thoughts were not present in his mind right now. I hope I'm wrong. However it is on that basis that my comment was made ...
If I'm right ... potentially, TB could pull the plug ... it is that serious.
So, ... please read the WORDS, and nothing else ???
its not hard to estimate as IT workers all have this in dreams ;D
I hope TB also wont have a wind up as he is still suffering from accident pains :-\
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Is there one person who has the last say on this forum ?
Who are the founder members who got it all up and running ?
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Is there one person who has the last say on this forum ?
Who are the founder members who got it all up and running ?
The Administrators on here are a team, and as such make joint decisions on major matters.
The Admin team are:- TheBoy, MarksDTM, Hotel21 and myself.
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To qualify the above, the Admin Team have total control of the forum.
Moderators, as the name applies, moderate posts, members etc, some have control of all boards, some have restricted control of boards.
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To qualify the above, the Admin Team have total control of the forum.
Moderators, as the name applies, moderate posts, members etc, some have control of all boards, some have restricted control of boards.
Thanks for that :y
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Your right paul.lovejoy. The members should have some form of notice as to what is happening considering that the problem affect us all.Hope it happens soon because it is quite obviously not going to go away or be forgotten. Too much damage has been done by either the lack of control or biased control in my view.
At least a formal notice would stop the presumptions and scaremongering.
If my take on the recent events is correct (two members have had a dispute), I don't see why there should be any explanation as it has sod all to do with any of us IMHO.
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If the incident is under control is there going to be some sort of announcment or post explaing what is happening or something similar
thanks
I doubt it, as it's a private matter being dealt with by the Admin team, and as such, should not now concern any of the other members.
As Mark said, in an earlier post 'The matter is under control'.
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Your right paul.lovejoy. The members should have some form of notice as to what is happening considering that the problem affect us all.Hope it happens soon because it is quite obviously not going to go away or be forgotten. Too much damage has been done by either the lack of control or biased control in my view.
At least a formal notice would stop the presumptions and scaremongering.
If my take on the recent events is correct (two members have had a dispute), I don't see why there should be any explanation as it has sod all to do with any of us IMHO.
Exactly so. There is a distinct difference between concern and curiosity. As regards concerning the forum and saying what's happening then that is a matter for those involved and nothing to do with those simply looking on from the sidelines. It's not exactly going to compete with Olympic female beach vollyball, is it!
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Your right paul.lovejoy. The members should have some form of notice as to what is happening considering that the problem affect us all.Hope it happens soon because it is quite obviously not going to go away or be forgotten. Too much damage has been done by either the lack of control or biased control in my view.
At least a formal notice would stop the presumptions and scaremongering.
If my take on the recent events is correct (two members have had a dispute), I don't see why there should be any explanation as it has sod all to do with any of us IMHO.
Exactly so. There is a distinct difference between concern and curiosity. As regards concerning the forum and saying what's happening then that is a matter for those involved and nothing to do with those simply looking on from the sidelines. It's not exactly going to compete with Olympic female beach vollyball, is it!
Swmbo has been taking a interest in all this
She suggests ...........
3 rounds of semi naked mud wrestleing to sort out any future bitch fights between members ;D ;D
Can she have a job on here ? :D :D
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:y :y i agree with martian let the admins sort it out and the rest of us just cary on with the forum and enjoy it
ozzycat :y :y :y
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Swmbo has been taking a interest in all this
She suggests ...........
3 rounds of semi naked mud wrestleing to sort out any future bitch fights between members ;D ;D
Can she have a job on here ? :D :D
Excellent, could you please arrange a demo event in your garden and send me the picture for hosting.
Also, the concensus is that it should be fully naked.......purely to give the female competitors more 'hand holds' you understand
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Your right paul.lovejoy. The members should have some form of notice as to what is happening considering that the problem affect us all.Hope it happens soon because it is quite obviously not going to go away or be forgotten. Too much damage has been done by either the lack of control or biased control in my view.
At least a formal notice would stop the presumptions and scaremongering.
If my take on the recent events is correct (two members have had a dispute), I don't see why there should be any explanation as it has sod all to do with any of us IMHO.
Exactly so. There is a distinct difference between concern and curiosity. As regards concerning the forum and saying what's happening then that is a matter for those involved and nothing to do with those simply looking on from the sidelines. It's not exactly going to compete with Olympic female beach vollyball, is it!
Swmbo has been taking a interest in all this
She suggests ...........
3 rounds of semi naked mud wrestleing to sort out any future bitch fights between members ;D ;D
Can she have a job on here ? :D :D
As long as Captain Zok doen't take part ;)
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Your right paul.lovejoy. The members should have some form of notice as to what is happening considering that the problem affect us all.Hope it happens soon because it is quite obviously not going to go away or be forgotten. Too much damage has been done by either the lack of control or biased control in my view.
At least a formal notice would stop the presumptions and scaremongering.
If my take on the recent events is correct (two members have had a dispute), I don't see why there should be any explanation as it has sod all to do with any of us IMHO.
Exactly so. There is a distinct difference between concern and curiosity. As regards concerning the forum and saying what's happening then that is a matter for those involved and nothing to do with those simply looking on from the sidelines. It's not exactly going to compete with Olympic female beach vollyball, is it!
Swmbo has been taking a interest in all this
She suggests ...........
3 rounds of semi naked mud wrestleing to sort out any future bitch fights between members ;D ;D
Can she have a job on here ? :D :D
As long as Captain Zok doen't take part ;)
Why just Captain Zok? ??? I'd want to extend the non-participation a whoooole lot further. :o
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Having started this thread I have only this last comment to make.
OK, we have all had a good go and some really decent interchanges showing how the OOFers can come together but can we now lay this to rest?
I am reassured that the matter has been taken seriously and that the Admin team are well on top of the matter, no doubt they may make some announcement if they feel it necessary to make their findings public. With the concern shown I think it would be nice to put the minds of those upset by this to rest and let normal oofing commence. (Can we have oofing added to the next dictionary please?)
No doubt time will heal the wounds but memories will be a far different matter methinks.
Thanx all for participating.
:y
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Excellent, could you please arrange a demo event in your garden and send me the picture for hosting.
Also, the concensus is that it should be fully naked.......purely to give the female competitors more 'hand holds' you understand
Sod still images, let's have it in full 1080p @ 30fps with 7.1 DTS audio ;D
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Ridiculous. The whole thing.
If an opinion is given which you don't agree with, you ain't gonna get the other party to agree with yours. Why would you want to? For what cause? They think this, you think that. So what?
Remember you cannot change other people, you cannot get other people to agree with you if they don't want to ...... and most all remember the simple fact that it takes more than one person to argue. Others think what they want - your only responsibility is to be true to yourself and keep believing whatever it is you believe. If others don't agree, hey, that's life. If someone is "insulting", so what. It will stop if you don't respond.
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explain that to the harpie if you can!! :y
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The Administrators on here are a team, and as such make joint decisions on major matters.
The Admin team are:- TheBoy, MarksDTM, Hotel21 and myself.
While we have been asked to let the Admin team make the joint decisions on the forum and for the good of the forum, I think it's hugely important that the feelings running through the core membership of this forum are taken into account, if those feelings are not taken into consideration I think this place we all spend our time contributing to may become a very quiet place indeed.
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The Administrators on here are a team, and as such make joint decisions on major matters.
The Admin team are:- TheBoy, MarksDTM, Hotel21 and myself.
While we have been asked to let the Admin team make the joint decisions on the forum and for the good of the forum, I think it's hugely important that the feelings running through the core membership of this forum are taken into account, if those feelings are not taken into consideration I think this place we all spend our time contributing to may become a very quiet place indeed.
I think everybody feeling are well known by now :y
But at the end of the day it is nobodys business but the admins / jimbob / Ljay and Pinkys ;)
Its the admins forum and we only visit for the info and banter / abuse ;D ;D
At the end of the day, nobody makes anybody post on here.
We do it out of choice :y
If you don't want to talk to someone you don't have too ;)
I could say a hell of alot about all this but why get so wound up ?
Right you lot ............... who is going to be first in the mud pit with me and swmbo ;D
Martian, your in charge of filming it :y
Dvd's will be sold in the club shop and all proceeds will go to the food / beer fund for the next meet ;D ;D
If it comes out ok, maybe tunnie can get us a good broadcasting deal with sky :D :D
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well i am keeping out off it :y :y :y
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:y :y how cold is the mud :D :D :D
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if there's a warm shower on hand, i'm sure we could persuade JamesV6CDX and Tunnie to have a go.
...
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:-\
Having read most posts that appear to be interesting I am now absolutely gobsmacked that a member has been dealt a hand of cards, that was to me, stacked.
I will mention no names and so cause no offence or reason for my being reprimanded in any manner. If I am reprimanded due to this post then all it serves to prove is that the forum has indeed lost its perspective and fairness to all members and a select few can do as they wish.
Someone please inform me exactly how a moderator can 'moderate' in a situation that involves a partner?
Logic and personal experience with my own tells me that no matter how it may be said that the moderation was an impartial process it cannot be simply because the moderators life would be made hell on earth if the moderator failed to support fully the partner even if the partner was at fault. That is how life is! The ones who have caused this latest kangaroo court to happen know who they are and other members who have read the relevant locked post will too.
I have read all of the content and nowhere within it can I see any reason for the victim to have to apologise. It is the complainant who needs to look in the mirror and turn down the over sensitive retaliation for a reply that was innocuous at best. How can 'terribly sorry old boy, I am a little tired' be offensive? Funnily enough the complainant has used the same term in previous posts many times ('boring' too if I remember correctly).
In future can we not expect that any moderation is performed by a totally independent person NOT related in any manner to the complainant? That would ensure that the process was fair and completely above board.
In closing I can understand what has happened because it happened very much the same way for me some time ago and by the same persons. The 'moderation' in that case was also biased due to the relationship. Some people can, and like to give it out but throw the rattle out of the cot when it is gave back to them. For the sake of the forums' reputation please grow up and act like adults.
Finally if the victim has been made by one means or another to have a 'rest' then so should the complainant. That has happened before too if I remember correctly. If the heat of the kitchen is too much to bear then the best thing would be to leave the kitchen would it not?
That’s enough said now, I will wait patiently for my ban, then if banned or reprimanded take it to the Global level to achieve fairness and true impartiality.
I make no apologies for the following text because it is in my best interests.
I have copied this post to ensure that if it is deleted then I will still retain the content to raise the matter until justice is seen to be done.
agree :y
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:-\
Having read most posts that appear to be interesting I am now absolutely gobsmacked that a member has been dealt a hand of cards, that was to me, stacked.
I will mention no names and so cause no offence or reason for my being reprimanded in any manner. If I am reprimanded due to this post then all it serves to prove is that the forum has indeed lost its perspective and fairness to all members and a select few can do as they wish.
Someone please inform me exactly how a moderator can 'moderate' in a situation that involves a partner?
Logic and personal experience with my own tells me that no matter how it may be said that the moderation was an impartial process it cannot be simply because the moderators life would be made hell on earth if the moderator failed to support fully the partner even if the partner was at fault. That is how life is! The ones who have caused this latest kangaroo court to happen know who they are and other members who have read the relevant locked post will too.
I have read all of the content and nowhere within it can I see any reason for the victim to have to apologise. It is the complainant who needs to look in the mirror and turn down the over sensitive retaliation for a reply that was innocuous at best. How can 'terribly sorry old boy, I am a little tired' be offensive? Funnily enough the complainant has used the same term in previous posts many times ('boring' too if I remember correctly).
In future can we not expect that any moderation is performed by a totally independent person NOT related in any manner to the complainant? That would ensure that the process was fair and completely above board.
In closing I can understand what has happened because it happened very much the same way for me some time ago and by the same persons. The 'moderation' in that case was also biased due to the relationship. Some people can, and like to give it out but throw the rattle out of the cot when it is gave back to them. For the sake of the forums' reputation please grow up and act like adults.
Finally if the victim has been made by one means or another to have a 'rest' then so should the complainant. That has happened before too if I remember correctly. If the heat of the kitchen is too much to bear then the best thing would be to leave the kitchen would it not?
That’s enough said now, I will wait patiently for my ban, then if banned or reprimanded take it to the Global level to achieve fairness and true impartiality.
I make no apologies for the following text because it is in my best interests.
I have copied this post to ensure that if it is deleted then I will still retain the content to raise the matter until justice is seen to be done.
agree :y
I also agree but as I said earlier, the lads who run this forum have one hell of a problem to sort out.
They can't for obvious reasons get drawn into this argument.
Lets let it go and see what happens ;)
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Manners makeith man. :y :y :y
Very sad what has happened and even sadder that dirty washing is being done in public in front of a global audience. >:(
I sincerely hope it can all be resolved amicably.
We all make mistakes in life and it is the big people that are not afraid to apologize, make up and move on. :y :y
I spent over 10 years on my local social club committee and like the admin job on here it was a thankless task and I lost friends, when they had to be punished in an even handed way when they had misbehaved. >:(
I would like to thank all those that put the time and effort into running OOF, what they do does make a difference and improvement to society by providing the facilities for the technical help, maintenance, general car chat and general rant / p-take discussion sections and I'm sure it is appreciated by all OOF members.
In the General Discussion section, some things interest me and some don't, so I read and comment in those that do and ignore those that don't and appreciate what interests me is more boring than watching paint dry to others, but I think part of the richness of the area is its diversity and the OOF banter, so there is hopefully something of interest for everyone.
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Manners makeith man. :y :y :y
Very sad what has happened and even sadder that dirty washing is being done in public in front of a 1.global audience. >:(
I sincerely hope it can all be resolved amicably.
We all make mistakes in life and it is the big people that are not afraid to apologize, make up and move on. :y :y
I spent over 10 years on my local social club committee and like the admin job on here it was a thankless task and I lost friends, when they had to be punished in an even handed way when they had misbehaved. >:(
I would like to thank all those that put the time and effort into running OOF, what they do does 2.make a difference and improvement to society by providing the facilities for the technical help, maintenance, general car chat and general rant / p-take discussion sections and I'm sure it is appreciated by all OOF members.
In the General Discussion section, some things interest me and some don't, so I read and comment in those that do and ignore those that don't and appreciate what interests me is more boring than watching paint dry to others, but I think part of the richness of the area is its diversity and the OOF banter, so there is hopefully something of interest for everyone.
1.No worries , my local forums are like war zones ;D invaded by keyboard warriors from every age..
2.it makes a big difference.. especially when I show/explain our mechanics how to do a particular job and see the surprise in their face ;D
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sorry, but can we get back to the mud wrestling now please?
;D
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sorry, but can we get back to the mud wrestling now please?
;D
in frillies :-*
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sorry, but can we get back to the mud wrestling now please?
;D
Agreed, can we get this back on top.i..c....ow.... :-[
Well, what the hell!
(http://www.lux-limo.co.uk/limo-articles/mudwrestling.jpg)
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sorry, but can we get back to the mud wrestling now please?
;D
Agreed, can we get this back on top.i..c....ow.... :-[
Well, what the hell!
(http://www.lux-limo.co.uk/limo-articles/mudwrestling.jpg)
why is it that pic gives me a stirring in the lower region :-*
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can i be the one to hose them down
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sorry, but can we get back to the mud wrestling now please?
;D
Agreed, can we get this back on top.i..c....ow.... :-[
Well, what the hell!
(http://www.lux-limo.co.uk/limo-articles/mudwrestling.jpg)
why is it that pic gives me a stirring in the lower region :-*
Well, there's not much up top to stir, is there? ;D
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id like to see her stood up ::)
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id like to see her stood up ::)
I'd like to see my old man stand up. :(
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id like to see her stood up ::)
Push gently back with the heels so the chair moves away from the desk.
Place both hands on the edge of the desk in front of you.
Place both feet frmly on the floor directly beneath the mkees
Pressing down firmly with the arms, straighten the knees without moving the feet.
This will cause your body to rise to the vertical .. a.k.a "standing up"
Look at the monitor.
There you go .. you've achieved what you wanted ... ...... :)
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id like to see her stood up ::)
Push gently back with the heels so the chair moves away from the desk.
Place both hands on the edge of the desk in front of you.
Place both feet frmly on the floor directly beneath the mkees
Pressing down firmly with the arms, straighten the knees without moving the feet.
This will cause your body to rise to the vertical .. a.k.a "standing up"
Look at the monitor.
There you go .. you've achieved what you wanted ... ...... :)
go on nige ;D
you beat steve to it ;D