Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: kcl on 15 April 2012, 18:54:19
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A few words to start: As some may remeber I've been having intermittent stiffness in steering, only when turning right and only every now and then, mainly noticed it low speed and around one quarter turn.
I do assume it is related to Servotronic somehow, no play in any suspension parts, nor in any joints/track rods, nor the idler. Is there some kind of sensor for steering angle for Servotronic or ESP? If there is a turning angle sensor that might be my problem. Other candidate is Servotronic relay.
So, today I noticed a slight play in steering. Engine off and there is play, measured visually on steering wheel about 1-2 cm. Now this can't be right? Or can it? Engine on and no play.
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when was the last time you changed the power steering fluid? changed mine when it was getting hard now can turn sterring with my little finger. :y
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it was changed in the winter but I don't think its that because I only have one "blind spot" and only turning left.
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They all do that in my experience.
Steering box is "looser" away from the straight ahead position where it's damped so you'll feel an alarming amount of play away from the straight ahead position. Fluid pressure does take up some of the play, so it's worse without the engine running.
EDIT: It would be well worth making sure the pitman arm is straight ahead when the steering wheel is central. If the wheel has been moved on the steering column to correct the wheel position, it could mean the damping effect now happens away from the straight ahead position, giving a stiff spot in the steering.
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Normal.
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I have a similar issue :'( Same symptoms, but at higher speeds when turning right and the suspension is loaded, also intermittent wandering under braking :-\ It was abrupt and unexpected enough to make Kevin go "Ooh that's not right" :-\
For reference the car was set up last Thursday, using WIMs settings, almost perfectly set :y
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I have a similar issue :'( Same symptoms, but at higher speeds when turning right and the suspension is loaded, also intermittent wandering under braking :-\ It was abrupt and unexpected enough to make Kevin go "Ooh that's not right" :-\
For reference the car was set up last Thursday, using WIMs settings, almost perfectly set :y
Two words...
First line
At a guess.
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Which bit? :-\
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They all do that in my experience.
Steering box is "looser" away from the straight ahead position where it's damped so you'll feel an alarming amount of play away from the straight ahead position. Fluid pressure does take up some of the play, so it's worse without the engine running.
EDIT: It would be well worth making sure the pitman arm is straight ahead when the steering wheel is central. If the wheel has been moved on the steering column to correct the wheel position, it could mean the damping effect now happens away from the straight ahead position, giving a stiff spot in the steering.
What would be the best and easiest method to make sure the pitman arm is straight ahead? Take a measure from points where it and idler connect to frame and then measure the the points where they connect to steering arm?
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Which bit? :-\
Oh dear. First place I'd look is rear wb bush, tbh.
I've had nothing but agro with first line parts. ESP wishbones.
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Which bit? :-\
Oh dear. First place I'd look is rear wb bush, tbh.
I've had nothing but agro with first line parts. ESP wishbones.
:'(
Boglox. Not sure the wishbones are first line :-\ top mounts are. Weren't an issue at mot 4 weeks ago. Polys taking their toll then perhaps :-\ wishbones discs and pads at the bucks
meet ::) Would've thought with the polys they might have lasted better than 30k :-\
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I think it's something at the front end. Could feel something "shifting" through the steering. Wish we'd thought to put it up on the ramp on Saturday and give it a once-over. ::)
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Check the rear bush on front wishbone, plus all the usual stuff, before concluding.
If it is the rearward bush, it will bu due to the quality of the bush itself, nout to do with poly.
Could be a number of things, but iirc the ones fitted at the lakes, you said where first line. I did wince at the time. They might be fine, needs a check over, but thats what I'd bet on.
Needs the front wheel off to exmine fully.
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As said, I have no play whatsoever on wishbones, track rods, idler and still the blind spot. Will have to re-re-re-check the pitman arm pointing straight but still I'd like to find some information about servotronic ans ESP system.
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No noticable (stationary at least) play in w/b, either on the ground or up in the air :-\ but rubber is split around the tops of both rear bushes :-\
I've also drained the power steering reservoir and refilled with fresh fluid. Will see how car behaves tonight :-\
As said, I have no play whatsoever on wishbones, track rods, idler and still the blind spot. Will have to re-re-re-check the pitman arm pointing straight but still I'd like to find some information about servotronic ans ESP system.
Centre line of the Pitman arm is parallel to the chassis rail when straight ahead :y
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I think maybe start a thread Al. :)
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Re servo tronic, if there is an electrical fault, tech 2 will read the ecu and show a code.
Sounds mechanical to me though. (he said cautiously) :-\
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Servotronic is as basic as it gets. Servotronic ECU receives a road speed signal from ABS/TC as its' only input and applies a variable PWM signal to modulate a valve in the steering box which varies hydraulic pressure and hence the level of steering assistance.
Only real symptoms of a problem are lack of assistance e.g. when speed signal is not present or supply fuse has blown. I can imagine it might raise a code if the electrical circuit to the valve is at fault but, again, lack of assistance at low speeds is really the only noticeable symptom.
ESP might be another matter. I haven't ever seen it fitted to a UK car, so can't really comment.
I don't recall whether ESP replaces Servotronic or sits alongside it. If the former, then you might be losing assistance due to a problem with the steering angle sensor that's making the ESP system hiccup but I doubt it. It sounds like a tight spot in the steering box or some other part of the mechanism to me.
As said before, the level of play is normal IMHO but check alignment of the steering wheel and box input. The best way to do this is apparently to check where the steering column joins the steering box input shaft, where there is a marking indication the centre position but some dismantling is required to get there.
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Steering box input shaft is the brassy "looking" shaft on the left poking through the rubber seal. In order to see the mark on the input shaft, the steering column has to be removed from it mounts and the knuckle shown removed to the side.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/cb4de386.jpg)
IMO, given the coarseness of the splines on the column and knuckle, the easiest way to check the box is central to the wheels is to straighten the wheels and visually check the pitman arm is straight ahead.
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More than peculiar thing I remebered. I canged the wishbones 'cause they were shot and the problem kind of disappeared for a while... UNTIL the geometry was set up again. So, it seems it is mechanical but I have no idea how and why. No play in any component, fresh fluid in PAS system, wheels are ok (have tried it with three different sets). Next is to re-chekc the pitman arm but visually checking will only be more or less objective evaluation... "it seems to be straight..." :-\ How straight is straight and how to measure? Will also measure the lengths of track rods, that might give an idea if the pitman arm is straight or not :-\ Mostly I'm confused with the fact that this "stiff spot" is ALWAYS in same position and ALWAYS to left, never to right nd that's why I did suspect Servotronic or ESP. But, as said in peoples answers, servotronic will either work or not as it's very simple setup. BUT, then again, ESP and (if Omega has one) its "steering wheel sensor/input/whatever it's called" MIGHT be the issue here but then again, how it would affect PAS as these systems are not connected :-\
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It must be mechanical, going by your description.
Is the problem there with wheels jacked/car off the floor? While checking pitman arm it might be worth moving the steering trough ots full travel from underneath. If noticeable, could undo the steering track rod to stub axle, remove nut and tap the ball joint out with a hammer, then move the wheel through it's movement separately from the rest of the steering. See if it can be isolated/diagnosed that way.
Might point to a top shock mount or a component sticking. Trouble is top shock mounts tend to behave when unloaded.
Food for thought. :)
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Ps, provided the track rod adjuster clamps are tight the above shouldn't affect toe setting.
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It must be mechanical, going by your description.
Is the problem there with wheels jacked/car off the floor? While checking pitman arm it might be worth moving the steering trough ots full travel from underneath. If noticeable, could undo the steering track rod to stub axle, remove nut and tap the ball joint out with a hammer, then move the wheel through it's movement separately from the rest of the steering. See if it can be isolated/diagnosed that way.
Might point to a top shock mount or a component sticking. Trouble is top shock mounts tend to behave when unloaded.
Food for thought. :)
Top mounts were changed (the yellow bearing kind of part) along the wishbones. Old ones seemed to be ok but still replaced them. Any other parts that I should have renewed in top mounts? Wheels off the floor and all is fine, which does point to the top mounts though ???
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Just the rubber mount and the bearing.
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Just the rubber mount and the bearing.
Ok. Rubbers were "good", no cracks or anything, and the bearings were changed. Will crawl under the car in the evening...again... SWMBO must think something about this continious lying under the car... :D
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Update: Pitman arm is 100% straight. Both track rods are same length. No play in idler. BUT: now I found play in left wheel but can not pinpoint it anywhere. It is steering related play, defo not bearing, only in 9-3 direction. Not much but noticable. And on left side. So, it's either inner our outer track rod end, huh? Does the "main rod" (the big part of steering in the middle of car, whatsitsnamethen) joints wear? And, if these are in good condition, how can I make sure the play is not in the box itself?
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Does sound like track rod/ball joint play. Would that cause a stiff spot?.... unless it's binding. Still reckOn it's worth tapping the ball joint off the stub axle and checking components individually by hand.
Steering box play , engine running, stand outside the car, turn steering wheel through the open window with one hand, while feeling the movement of the road wheel with the other hand.
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Ps won't work on the passenger side.
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Does sound like track rod/ball joint play. Would that cause a stiff spot?.... unless it's binding. Still reckOn it's worth tapping the ball joint off the stub axle and checking components individually by hand.
Steering box play , engine running, stand outside the car, turn steering wheel through the open window with one hand, while feeling the movement of the road wheel with the other hand.
I was wondering the same, how could it cause the stiff spot ??? Well, I won't give up, new track rod on the list and while doing that can also check all other possibilities. Quite confusing this one though...
One more thing: when putting a new track rod in I assume I can make it to equal legth with the old one and do not need tracking adjusted?
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The only reference you have is to compare length, but massive errors are likely.
There's an unfinished guide in test zone for toe. Then it MUST be set correctly after.
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The only reference you have is to compare length, but massive errors are likely.
There's an unfinished guide in test zone for toe. Then it MUST be set correctly after.
Why massive errors would be likely? Reason I'm fighting this is that I do not want to pay another 90 euros for geometry check...
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What would be the odds that the strut top has failed? I mean the rubber part? As said, bearing was replaced but I got somehow suspicious about this other part... And, this would explain the blind spot. But would it explain the feel of play also? Because I could not determine which ball joint in track rods would have been faulty...
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When i got my 2.2 dti i had loads of steering play it was horrendous but after looking at the tyres they were all diferent speed ratings and one of the fronts was a winter tyre so after just switching front to backs it has lost 95% of play and also you can play in the corners a wee bit more :y :)
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The only reference you have is to compare length, but massive errors are likely.
There's an unfinished guide in test zone for toe. Then it MUST be set correctly after.
Why massive errors would be likely? Reason I'm fighting this is that I do not want to pay another 90 euros for geometry check...
Don't be tight. ;D
Up to you though, but I suspect you'll need to start again once sorted. A fraction of a turn on the track rod will give a lot of travel on the toe setting. It's simply not possible to measure track rod length that accurately. If the track rod is off rotate the wheel and stub axle through the steering range. See if there a tight spot, or anything odd. Could be top mount or wishbone ball joint.
With the steering components isolated from the steering assembly you should be able to narrow it down to one side or other.
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Damn. And I'm embarresed. It's the lower ball joint on wishbone. :-[ :-[ :-[ I could not believe it would be that, only a few months since I repalced the whole wishbone with a complete new part!
I did change the track rod however, well the inner joint felt quite loose anyway.
So, tonight I will be trying to drill the rivets out and put a new ball joint in, the I will be booking to full alignment. Can the ball joint be done in-situ without removing wishbone and/or without opening the strut -to- knuckle - bolts?
Something learned: never ever mislook the obvious. Even if you are sure the fault is not in certain component it still can be :y I could not have imagined it would be the lower ball but there is play in it and seems like a fair reason for this blind spot in steering.
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Which wishbones fitted...?
Strut to knuckle/stub axle bolts do not need to be undone. Although the wb ball joint will affect camber setting slightly.
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Ps, check everything else IMO. Don't want to find the blind spot or another fault still exists after another set up cost.
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Nor do I want to find that blind spot ever again :D I have so far done and checked following:
- new wishbones a few months back, pattern cheapos
- left track rod (complete)
- strut top bearings, rubbers seemed ok
- while undoing track rod I checked strut rotation and could not feel any issues
- wheel bearings are ok
- tyres: have tried 3 sets
- complete alignment after wishbone job
- pitman arm is pnting very straight
- idler is ok, no up-down movement
- PAS fluid changed (or at least 75% of it)
- no play in steering box with engine running, though ni idea if it is "too tight"?
- right side feels to be ok in all above items when wheels are off the floor
So, if the new lower BJ does not cure it I really do not have ANY ideas what it could be :-\ Hoping for the best but expecting the worst :D
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I'd drill out the rivets holding the bottom balljoint on and bolt in a new one. I can't see that affecting the geometry badly enough to warrant another geometry check as long as only the ball joint is replaced, and it needs doing anyway... It might have a tight spot, especially as it has failed early and therefore potentially had a manufacturing defect.
Check the one on the other side carefully, too!
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Thanks guys for your help and comments and giving the good spirit to my "project" :y :y :y
At least I know what I will be doing tonight, another night under the car :D And still I love the Omegas :D
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Ok, weekends (last nights) result. Put the old track rod back because the play was not there and to avoid tracking. Put in new lower ball joint and, so far, the stiff point is gone. The LBJ was really bad. But, as I am not at all satisfied nor convinced its in all good condition I will be watching it very carefully. One note I made: passenger side strut rod nut had worked loose :o I opened the top nuts from engine bay just to make sure they are correctly torqued and I found the other side lower nut (tha one actually keeping the shock in place) was loose. Well I torqued it up also (70Nm, is it right?) but now I started thinking that I didi it wrong. I must compress the spring and THEN tighten it, right? This can be done in-situ, right? Do NOT want to remove the strut from knuckle...
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Top shock mount and spring nuts can be tightened in place, no need to remove from the car. Wheels loaded though. I'd only expect it to knock anyway, if at all.
Although things could get awkward if it came fully loose and the car was jacked up.
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Ps, how did you get a torque wrench on the top shock mount nuts? The centre strut needs to be heald to tighten it properly, so a torque wrench would cover the 11(?)mill hex on the shock shaft on GM shocks...?
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Top shock mount and spring nuts can be tightened in place, no need to remove from the car. Wheels loaded though. I'd only expect it to knock anyway, if at all.
Although things could get awkward if it came fully loose and the car was jacked up.
It was "hand tight" so I expect it not to be or caused any problems.
Always some issues with my car, now I have intermittetly the ESP light on the dash >:( Only when I have driven on motorway for a good while. Must get the codes read. My "not-allowed-to-discuss-here" -code reader can not detect my ABS/TC/ESP system correctly, if anyone has any ideas for this I'm glad to hear.
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Ps, how did you get a torque wrench on the top shock mount nuts? The centre strut needs to be heald to tighten it properly, so a torque wrench would cover the 11(?)mill hex on the shock shaft on GM shocks...?
I did it "vice versa": holding the 24mm nut with a spanner, put torque wrench to the 11mm centre and ratchet "backwards"
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Ps, how did you get a torque wrench on the top shock mount nuts? The centre strut needs to be heald to tighten it properly, so a torque wrench would cover the 11(?)mill hex on the shock shaft on GM shocks...?
I did it "vice versa": holding the 24mm nut with a spanner, put torque wrench to the 11mm centre and ratchet "backwards"
Aha, ok. Although the 11mill will have some friction on it due to the shock internals etc. not sure what the torque setting is for those. I just nip em up tight ish ;D
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Ps, how did you get a torque wrench on the top shock mount nuts? The centre strut needs to be heald to tighten it properly, so a torque wrench would cover the 11(?)mill hex on the shock shaft on GM shocks...?
I did it "vice versa": holding the 24mm nut with a spanner, put torque wrench to the 11mm centre and ratchet "backwards"
Aha, ok. Although the 11mill will have some friction on it due to the shock internals etc. not sure what the torque setting is for those. I just nip em up tight ish ;D
True but as for the result it is same as you would be tightening the nut: relevat torque is achieved. Mor eor less.
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Some update: the blind spot is now gone (for now), seems it was the lower ball joint which was completely busted. However, all is not ok. Still have a "knock" on steering, only when turning left, just aside straight ahead position. No play anywhere. I am really confused with this one. Tracking is ok, pitman arm visually checked straight. Am I just gonna live with this or is there still something I could do or check?
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Have you replaced the droplinks , had similar issues with mine ... Droplinks appeared to be ok whilst on the car and i was getting similar knocking through the steering after replacing the ball joints that were shot . Once the droplinks were replaced the knocking was cured .
Just a thought ;)
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Have you replaced the droplinks , had similar issues with mine ... Droplinks appeared to be ok whilst on the car and i was getting similar knocking through the steering after replacing the ball joints that were shot . Once the droplinks were replaced the knocking was cured .
Just a thought ;)
hmmm... that might be a good idea, not too expensive to "test". Droplinks are the ones from anti roll bar to wishbone ones? Not always sure what different components are called in english :-[
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Drop link play has no real effect on handling or steering, they just knock randomly as the roll bar twists through the level position, or while the car is level they knock over bumps. Load the roll bar while in a corner and the play is taken up and the knock disappears.
If the knock is triggered by turning the steering to the left, or while the steering is left of centre in a certain position, I'd say not drop links.
But it's easy to test drop links for play. Both wheels must be off the floor, grab the roll bar as close the end by the drop link as you can and pull up and down. You'll feel any play.
Roll bar MUST be level though. If its twisted by jacking ones side of the car only, the roll bar will be loaded and the play will be taken up. Due to the torsion of the roll bar, which is massive, it's then impossible to feel the play as described as described above.
Your symptoms sound almost similar AA's at this stage.
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Drop link play has no real effect on handling or steering, they just knock randomly as the roll bar twists through the level position, or while the car is level they knock over bumps. Load the roll bar while in a corner and the play is taken up and the knock disappears.
If the knock is triggered by turning the steering to the left, or while the steering is left of centre in a certain position, I'd say not drop links.
But it's easy to test drop links for play. Both wheels must be off the floor, grab the roll bar as close the end by the drop link as you can and pull up and down. You'll feel any play.
Roll bar MUST be level though. If its twisted by jacking ones side of the car only, the roll bar will be loaded and the play will be taken up. Due to the torsion of the roll bar, which is massive, it's then impossible to feel the play as described as described above.
Your symptoms sound almost similar AA's at this stage.
Yes, I saw his thread and am watching it carefully. Luckily he is having the Master helping...