Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: feeutfo on 04 May 2012, 01:50:06
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03 year. Where is it? Behind glove box?
...or I've also seen mention if drivers side kick panel. :-\
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I believe it's as Robs guide by the way, but thought I'd check model variants...? :)
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I believe it's as Robs guide by the way, but thought I'd check model variants...? :)
Don't know if this varies by which side the steering wheel is but in my late 2,6 (which I expect to be exactly as yours) it is behind the fuse box :y Must remove the panel covering the steering rack/shaft to reach it.
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03 year. Where is it? Behind glove box?
...or I've also seen mention if drivers side kick panel. :-\
Could be either Chris, but late one`s tend to be up under cabin fusebox
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03 year. Where is it? Behind glove box?
...or I've also seen mention if drivers side kick panel. :-\
Could be either Chris, but late one`s tend to be up under cabin fusebox
Yep. What he said. ^
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Cheers chaps. Off for a butchers. :)
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mine's up under the fusebox - in the "down the footwell on your head" position. It's red and says servotronic on it.
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Drove TB's briefly yesterday. Much easier to steer than mine.
So it's not servotronic relay.
What's next easiest to check..?
Baring in mind symptoms are complete opposite of a tired pas pump. In that the assistance is greater at low revs, and much heavier at high revs. Is sumat wired up backwards...? :-\
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Just rang the dealer, and there is mention of warranty work on a steering linkage. But there are no further details available.
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Well, its pump or box. Pump easier.
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Just a thought Chris, have you changed the idler on that one yet :-\ iirc there are different lengths...not sure what effect that would have though.
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What's the electrical connection to box? :-\
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Just a thought Chris, have you changed the idler on that one yet :-\ iirc there are different lengths...not sure what effect that would have though.
I have never done an idler, believe it or not. But the Dealer "could" have changed it I suppose.
Only other thing in my mind is the known to be pitted top mount bearings. :-\
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That wouldn't help because you'd be trying to turn against the springs :-\ thinking about it, migght it be worth changing them :-\
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They do turn, but they will do when jacked. Not sure how to check while driving at 40mph. :(
As you say though, might be worth changing them. :-\ I even tried driving up the road with the top mount nuts loose, knocked like hell but still stiff steering. :( loose nuts wouldn't affect the load of the car on the bearings though I suppose.
But my gut feeling is an on going issue.
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What's the electrical connection to box? :-\
Modulator valve on steering box controlled by the servotronic relay
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What's the electrical connection to box? :-\
Modulator valve on steering box controlled by the servotronic relay
Thanks Rob. :)
So some wires to it that could be open circuit or valve sticking/wired backwards?
I think someone's been in there, because the sheer bolts on the column still had the sheer heads on. Going by 2woodys comments when he checked steering box alignment.
Guessing the balve is between the box and chassis rail, facing outboard..?
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Should add tech 2 shows no codes in servo tronic. :(
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Drove TB's briefly yesterday. Much easier to steer than mine.
So it's not servotronic relay.
What's next easiest to check..?
Baring in mind symptoms are complete opposite of a tired pas pump. In that the assistance is greater at low revs, and much heavier at high revs. Is sumat wired up backwards...? :-\
That`s how it should be if servotronic is working correctly, faster the car is going the more the valve opens to release the pressure from the pump
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chrisgixers does seem heavier when driving around. Noticibly heavier.
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What's the electrical connection to box? :-\
Modulator valve on steering box controlled by the servotronic relay
Thanks Rob. :)
So some wires to it that could be open circuit or valve sticking/wired backwards?
I think someone's been in there, because the sheer bolts on the column still had the sheer heads on. Going by 2woodys comments when he checked steering box alignment.
Guessing the balve is between the box and chassis rail, facing outboard..?
#10 in this diag.
(http://opeloem.com/imgs/illustrations/VX/V94/L/VX_V94_L_4.png)
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Tech 2 set s-tronic to max assist, and it's made no odds at all. Other than a slight gyroscopic sensation at dead ahead.
So' if its as it should be, but just heavier, top mounts next would be logical, by the sound of it...?
I just can't see them making that much odds so close to dead ahead. :-\
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And a loom plug to connector on the valve. :)
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Tech 2 set s-tronic to max assist, and it's made no odds at all. Other than a slight gyroscopic sensation at dead ahead.
So' of its as it should be, but just heavier, top mounts next would be logical, by the sound of it...?
Not too good with "inexplicable" steering probs so can`t really add any more input :-\
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Not sure exactly where No 10 is, or if it needs PAS fluid drained. But wonder if thats worth swapping over...
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Tech 2 set s-tronic to max assist, and it's made no odds at all. Other than a slight gyroscopic sensation at dead ahead.
So' of its as it should be, but just heavier, top mounts next would be logical, by the sound of it...?
Not too good with "inexplicable" steering probs so can`t really add any more input :-\
Yeah it's annoying, just thinking aloud really.
Pic from eBay
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-OPEL-OMEGA-3-0-V6-POWER-STEERING-BOX-9227770-/350224425236
So from that, if I haven't got me dizzy hat on, it is up near the bulk head, engine side. :-\
Purple and black wires.
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Not sure exactly where No 10 is, or if it needs PAS fluid drained. But wonder if thats worth swapping over...
Yes I have a spare. Although it will be two fairly major oil leaks. :)
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I wonder if the relief valve in the PAS pump is opening too soon, or sticking open, so pressure is less at higher engine speeds?
Wierd one, as you say.
Have you tried removing the Servotronic unit and comparing 2 cars with minimum assistance, just to get a baseline without any electrickery involved?
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As mine is set to max assist, and presumably his is set to the usual min assist, we where expecting a rather marked difference when we swapped servo t relay with Tunnies car at the Wycombe meet. Made no odds to either car. We didnt even bother swapping it back.
Or rather Tunnie didn't. ;)
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Oh sorry. Remove the st relay altogether.
No. Good shout Kev. I could try that today.
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Only other thing I noticed driving TB's was mine has a much more pronounced squish noise when releasing full locking.
Very little noise on his.
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Oh sorry. Remove the st relay altogether.
No. Good shout Kev. I could try that today.
Yep, doesn't matter if the ECU is set to max or min. assist, it's still varying the output to the valve with speed. If you can eliminate that, you are back to steering box, pump and mechanical linkages, etc.
However, TIS states that steering boxes are coded to indicate what level of assistance they should be set to, implying that they do vary, and this is compensated for by the assistance setting.. or that's the way I read it, anyway.
Full lock is where the pressure relief valve operates, of course. Maybe there's a clue in the noise you have?
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I didnt know the relief valve operates at full lock. I thought it just strained the pump until the lock was released. :-\
So it will presumably have a max pressure relief via a spring loaded valve, as well as servo operation?
I wonder if holding/repeatedly bouncing it off full lock might help aggravate the valve. Or just force it open further if it's sticking.
As you can tell I haven't got my simple brain around this yet. ;D
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There will be a relief valve in the PAS pump. Normally, fluid pressure only builds a little when the steering box is working into a load (i.e. forces from the tyres) but when it hits the end stop, obviously, there's an immovable object the box is trying to overcome so the pressure must be limited somewhere. This will indeed be a spring loaded valve in the pump.
On some systems you can connect a gauge and check the pressures are in spec. Not sure on this one. Might have to do a TIS.
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This should help you get your head around it.....
there's a valve in the system, a rotary one. One side is connected to the wheels and the other side connected to the steering wheel. They're joined with a flexible shaft.
If you're going straight ahead, the two halves of the valve are both aligned and the valve is effectively closed. The pump produces a nominal pressure which is quite low and most of it is short-circuited past the steer valve.
If you steer either way, your steering input twists the flexible shaft, allowing the two halves of the steer valve to move relative to each other and this opens the valve. The nominal pressure from the pump is fed to the steering box and the pressure assists your steering input.
Now here's the important bit. As soon as you stop moving the steering wheel, the wheels will become aligned to where you want and the two halves of the steer valve catch up to each other. The assistance drops to near nothing, but of course the car is now going round in a circle. You need to reverse the process to get back to a straight line.
It's actually easy to think about it as "steer input" or "no steer input". A steer input is when you're actually moving the steering wheel and the valve is open. Merely holding the steering wheel to one side isn't an input as nothing is happening inside either the box or the pump.
The steering pump is sized to provide the greatest pressure when the valve is fully open, which is either when the steering wheel is being moved fast enough to open the steer valve fully or when you've reached full lock. The pump has a "trick" pressure-setting valve in it, providing the nominal pressure at all times irrespective of the flow rate, only being overloaded at full output ( i.e. full lock ). There is also a master pressure relief valve, preventing the pump stalling out. The normal tests for a power-assisted steering system are for the nominal pressure ( as a guess 5 bar ) and for the master pressure relief ( as a guess 125bar ). It's quite a big pump.
The servotronic valve is a bit of a fudge in that it allows some of the nominal pressure to bleed back to the reservoir without going near the steer valve. It opens and shuts regularly, at a rate controlled by the "relay". More "open", less "closed" = harder to turn steering = more steer "feel".
Removing the relay or disconnecting the solenoid is a good way to diagnose the system as for safety's sake it reverts to a non-servotronic mode whenever there's a fault.
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Removed both s t relays from very similar spec cars I have here and drove them both with no assistance. Mine bring 3.2 elite. Other being 3.2mv6.
Not as bad as I thought it would be. Initially I thought mine was still stiffer. But after jumping between both cars at least a dozen times. I can't really say I can tell them apart.
Both gave my dodgy shoulders arm ache to the same level. ;D
Re fitted the relays to the opposite cars. So they are swapped. No different. Mine still stiff. Tother normal. So no change.
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So guessing that means we have a difference in hydrolics on mine.
Suggests swap relief valve. ...?
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Was there ANY difference in yours with either ST relay to without a relay .... I'm wondering if something is up with yours and you are effectively driving with no assistance all the time ??? ie ... no electronics/electrics ???
If this is the case (and its nowt but a guess) .. then going by 2Woody's script ....
The servotronic valve is a bit of a fudge in that it allows some of the nominal pressure to bleed back to the reservoir without going near the steer valve. It opens and shuts regularly, at a rate controlled by the "relay". More "open", less "closed" = harder to turn steering = more steer "feel".
perhaps your servotronic valve itself is stuck ??? .. or not "bleeding back" ... because it has no power ??
(or its plain FUBAR ??)
:(
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Replacing str brought back some assistance. Back to where it was. But with the mv6 str fitted.
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mmm so some assistance seems to imply the valve is moving .. but is "open" more than it should be .. going by 2woody's script again .... or perhaps the valve is leaking internally and bypassing when it shouldn't ??? .... :(
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mmm so some assistance seems to imply the valve is moving .. but is "open" more than it should be .. going by 2woody's script again .... or perhaps the valve is leaking internally and bypassing when it shouldn't ??? .... :(
Yes it does seem to point to that valve. If changed and resolved, I would then expect the pas to be massively over assisted as its currently set to max assist. But it is stiffer than minimum assist/lighter than no assistance at all.
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Why would they do this? Btw.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/d3ba9806.jpg)
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/90ccff5a.jpg)
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All depends who clipped the relay carriers in as to their arrangement, as it`s only 3 relays guess the orientation isn`t that important :-\
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Same boat as I am in.
TIS2000 explains, remove plastic engine tray, remove heatsheild from steering box, unplug solenoid, remove 4 screws, and remove filter aswell, replace solenoid with cleaned filter, tighten screws to 2.5 Nm and refit heatsheild.
No mention of fluid loss, unless you'd expect it anyway?
Thinking of swapping mine out myself, as didn't feel any difference after purchasing and fitting new ZF servotronic relay from vauxhall at the weekend.
Will follow your post with interest!!!
If you replace the solenoid, let me know if it can be done in situ as TIS explains.
Cheers
Dean
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Same boat as I am in.
TIS2000 explains, remove plastic engine tray, remove heatsheild from steering box, unplug solenoid, remove 4 screws, and remove filter aswell, replace solenoid with cleaned filter, tighten screws to 2.5 Nm and refit heatsheild.
No mention of fluid loss, unless you'd expect it anyway?
Thinking of swapping mine out myself, as didn't feel any difference after purchasing and fitting new ZF servotronic relay from vauxhall at the weekend.
Will follow your post with interest!!!
If you replace the solenoid, let me know if it can be done in situ as TIS explains.
Cheers
Dean
and the cost ???
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I know Rob
I got it through car parts conexion for £40 all in instead of £120
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Same boat as I am in.
TIS2000 explains, remove plastic engine tray, remove heatsheild from steering box, unplug solenoid, remove 4 screws, and remove filter aswell, replace solenoid with cleaned filter, tighten screws to 2.5 Nm and refit heatsheild.
No mention of fluid loss, unless you'd expect it anyway?
Thinking of swapping mine out myself, as didn't feel any difference after purchasing and fitting new ZF servotronic relay from vauxhall at the weekend.
Will follow your post with interest!!!
If you replace the solenoid, let me know if it can be done in situ as TIS explains.
Cheers
Dean
Will do, but it won't be for at least a week now, as I need the car. Although I mite get the chance to jack it up and see if it looks remotely acessable.
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Given the pics, and the non sheared off shear bolts. I do wonder if somebody's been in there before. :-\
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Gixer, reckon someone has changed the box? Wonder if an early one went on, and thus needing the earlier style confit programmed onto the ECU/Relay??
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I can take a pic of the id plate.
Would that help? Not sure we know what to make of the various differences. :-\
Although I am only suspicious of the disterbances inside the car so far. I haven't looked under it yet. It's too hot for jacking up cars. :)
(although they would have to move most of it to change the box I guess)
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Same boat as I am in.
TIS2000 explains, remove plastic engine tray, remove heatsheild from steering box, unplug solenoid, remove 4 screws, and remove filter aswell, replace solenoid with cleaned filter, tighten screws to 2.5 Nm and refit heatsheild.
No mention of fluid loss, unless you'd expect it anyway?
Thinking of swapping mine out myself, as didn't feel any difference after purchasing and fitting new ZF servotronic relay from vauxhall at the weekend.
Will follow your post with interest!!!
If you replace the solenoid, let me know if it can be done in situ as TIS explains.
Cheers
Dean
Will do, but it won't be for at least a week now, as I need the car. Although I mite get the chance to jack it up and see if it looks remotely acessable.
have the same trouble, pump broke up,pump changed, fluid changed. after a couple of dry turns assistance runs out.
had planned a look at the filter/ solenoid on the steering box and it looked as if the bits you need to get at are against the chassis/ box out.
edit . relay changed first with a good one from the Bristol boy
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I can take a pic of the id plate.
Would that help? Not sure we know what to make of the various differences. :-\
Although I am only suspicious of the disterbances inside the car so far. I haven't looked under it yet. It's too hot for jacking up cars. :)
(although they would have to move most of it to change the box I guess)
Wonder if its worth trying to program an earlier config ;)
I'd need to check if its possible...
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Best pic I could manage with a gay phone. Glare off the badge didn't help. Not to mention all the LPG gubbins some eejit put in the way. ::)
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/0499062c.jpg)
Digit under the rivet, bottom left is a "1"4817 - 0103 on the right.
No idea if this is of any use at all. :-\
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I can confirm you can accidently set the 'old' config codes to a 'new' servotronic, run for a few months, then set the correct code with no ill effects (or noticable difference actually)
Mine was at 010 (normal), then set to 007 (old code for min), then finally reset to the correct 009 (new min code)
should add, I have a steering box in the garage if you need any other pics for reference :y
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Was aware there where 3 different codes for min med max assist. It is currently set to max assist, unless we have it arse backwards. ;D
Well ya never know. :-\ :)
Thanks Jimbob. Might come in handy at some point. :y
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I can confirm you can accidently set the 'old' config codes to a 'new' servotronic, run for a few months, then set the correct code with no ill effects (or noticable difference actually)
Mine was at 010 (normal), then set to 007 (old code for min), then finally reset to the correct 009 (new min code)
should add, I have a steering box in the garage if you need any other pics for reference :y
blown that theory then ;D
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This should help you get your head around it.....
Every day's a schoolday! Ta very much for that, 2w - very informative. :y
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Further to this, yesterday, while turning into Kevin's drive i noticed a squish noise from the pas pump, as if it was on full lock.
Except the steering was nowhere near full lock in order to make the turn. Revered back out on the same turning circle to repeat the sensation, and noticed the steering get stiffer, much stiffer, about 90 degrees of steering wheel movement up to full lock was impossibley stiff. This had caused the squish noise fom the pas pump, because the resistance had caused the relief valve on the pas pump to open, and did so long before full lock was reached.
After discussion with Kev we concluded a couple of things iirc.
1 the pump appears to be working fine, as it is generating enough pressure to open the relief valve at tickover speeds
2 the squish noise comes from the breather hole in the pas reservoir cap as the pressure releases.
3 the pas fluid was bloody hot. Only marginally cooler than touching the plenum after a blast. Not sure this normal tbh.
4 need to check we have the right pipes but the steering box cooling pipes where cold. The ones running across the front of the rad, behind the screen wash reservoir.
This is starting to look like fit another box. :(
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On checking Opel oem the pipes are feed/return between pas pump and box/box to reservoir.
Odd they should be at ambient, and the reservoir be so warm to the touch. :-\
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I know on one of my previous cars (can't remember which) the PAS bottle fluid used to get quite hot. Someone explained the reason was because the pump is constantly pressuring it, causing heat. No idea if this is correct.
Wonder if its worth disconnecting rods from box, and moving by hand, seeing if any tight spots, causing the pressure valve to open beford condeming the valve itself? Esp as there is a suspicion this isn't the first box in that car?
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Should add, on re reading, I haven't mentioned the extra stiffness approaching full lock on bith sides disappeared as we drove off at slow speed around the close to test It further.
As if the problem was building up with aggressive use of lock, but drive sensibly and the problem whent away.
I shall have to try and find a big empty car park and try turning circles left then right etc. see what happens.
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I shall have to try and find a big empty car park and try turning circles left then right etc. see what happens.
Yep, you can test the LSD at the same time, and lose some more release agent from those tyres. :P
I would be interested how it feels when turned lock to lock with the front wheels off the ground, both engine on and off.
On checking Opel oem the pipes are feed/return between pas pump and box/box to reservoir.
Odd they should be at ambient, and the reservoir be so warm to the touch. :-\
Engine had been stopped for a few minutes. I'm guessing they had already cooled off. We should have fired it up again to double check. There must be flow through them, or the system wouldn't work at all.
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will 0103 on the box be a date code ?
I have on occasion been able to get the PAS fluid to boil if the steering box is mal-adjusted (too tight on the damper usually)
isn't it approaching the time where you should just change the box and pump anyway, to save any more wasted effort ?
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Time...? No I don't think so. Identifying the exact fault seems more important to me, esp when it comes to wasting effort. Tbh.
All I've done so far is change the relay.
Pump and box I'd expect two see out 150k normally. And change to what? New parts? Anything available will be older from a breakers.
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Should add, on re reading, I haven't mentioned the extra stiffness approaching full lock on bith sides disappeared as we drove off at slow speed around the close to test It further.
As if the problem was building up with aggressive use of lock, but drive sensibly and the problem whent away.
I shall have to try and find a big empty car park and try turning circles left then right etc. see what happens.
Hot oil is less viscous than cold oil so it makes sense that the available pressure drops off as the oil heats up.
There are so many possible ways in which you could be losing pressure that I can't see how you can positively identify the problem without stripping down the pump & steering box :-\
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Given the pressure relief valve is operating, as Kev says, there doesn't appear to be a problem with lack of pressure.
Must admit I'm a little suprised at the pile and change this and that approach.
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So......
Pump believed to be good
Relief valve believed to be good
Servotronic relay probably OK
Servotronic valve probably OK
how about
piston seal?
Shuttle valve?
Have you considered using a stethoscope to try and identify where the shushing noise emanates from?
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Why do we think the servo tronic valve is ok?
Piston seal? Shuttle valve? Where are they? :-\
There is whirring noise from the pas pump when the relief valve opens. There is a suction noise coming from the breather hole in the pas reservoir cap when the pressure is released...Ie as the pressure is taken off/released from full lock.
Both noises where quite audible, and repeated on Kevs car. So considered normal I guess...?
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Ps. Intend to play around with this tomorrow.
Test the lock to lock stiffness and try and see what aggravates that.
When it occurs jack the wheels immediately and see if the stiffness is still there.
When jacked remove the heat shield to box, if I can, and see where this bloody solenoid is, and see of it can be removed, filter cleared or whatever etc.
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Why do we think the servo tronic valve is ok?
Piston seal? Shuttle valve? Where are they? :-\
There is whirring noise from the pas pump when the relief valve opens. There is a suction noise coming from the breather hole in the pas reservoir cap when the pressure is released...Ie as the pressure is taken off/released from full lock.
Both noises where quite audible, and repeated on Kevs car. So considered normal I guess...?
There is a big piston that drives a rack to turn the output shaft. When I rebuilt the power steering box on my Range Rover it had a piston seal that looked like big plastic piston ring. I wasn't sure if it was made of Nylon or PTFE :-\
l don't know if I got the name right for the control valve :-\ I am fairly certain that I have seen it called a shuttle valve somewhere :-\
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Spool valve..............
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Time...? No I don't think so. Identifying the exact fault seems more important to me, esp when it comes to wasting effort. Tbh.
Once you have ruled out problems in steering system beyond the box, you are running low on options ;). That leaves pump or box
Pump and box I'd expect two see out 150k normally. And change to what? New parts? Anything available will be older from a breakers.
Never really heard of boxes needing replacing, so assume they are normally good for the life of the car. MV6 is on 189k, no apparent issues with steering, aside from the PAS pump being replaced 2 or 3 years ago (usual low speed lack of assistance)
Thinking aloud, not sure if its been done, worth loosening the damper signifiacantly, in case thats causing stiffness in it - enough to cause hydraulic pressure to be too high?
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Yes that's next job after writing this.
After another test drive...
On a quiet. Business park, driving as slowly as tick over would allow, turning from lock to lock as quickly as possibles from side to side and trying to turn as hard as possible, caused no real change in stiffness. Although it is stiffer than a normal car as we know. Pas reservoir was roughly the same temp to touch as on Kevs drive, but the pipes behind the bumper where equally warm.
Pulling up to an uphill junction with full lock, and the car not creaping as the hill is holding the car stationary, provides a noticeable increase in stiffness almost exactly as it showed approaching Kevs drive. That being almost too heavy to turn in the last 90degrees of steering wheel rotation.
Now, allowing the car to roll back while turning the steering back and forth in the last 90degrees of steering wheel travel with car in neutral, to allow the revs to rise to about 3000rpm on the throttle, showed a marked improvement, the steering was much lighter. But still showed an increased stiffness in the last 90 degrees of travel.
Thinking change pump.
There may be other issues as well, but the increase in rpm on lock with no engine load does make the steering lighter. The last 90 is stiffer anyway on a normal pas car is it not? Due to the.... Now how the hell am I going to explane this in words ;D ...the end of the travel of the outside ball joint works on a radious. So the easiest point of travel will be with wheel straight ahead like so
wheel|_______|wheel
But as the lock is reached in the last 90 degrees of steering wheel travel like so
wheel/______/wheel
the outer ball joint is travelling forward at the end of it's radious
So it WILL get stiffer at the end of travel near full lock. Add in a reduction of say 30% assitance and the last 90 becomes very stiff indeed.
Does that make sense. :)
Edit to alter the upside ball joint to outside ball joint. Bloody crapple.
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Time...? No I don't think so. Identifying the exact fault seems more important to me, esp when it comes to wasting effort. Tbh.
Once you have ruled out problems in steering system beyond the box, you are running low on options ;). That leaves pump or box
Pump and box I'd expect two see out 150k normally. And change to what? New parts? Anything available will be older from a breakers.
Never really heard of boxes needing replacing, so assume they are normally good for the life of the car. MV6 is on 189k, no apparent issues with steering, aside from the PAS pump being replaced 2 or 3 years ago (usual low speed lack of assistance)
Thinking aloud, not sure if its been done, worth loosening the damper signifiacantly, in case thats causing stiffness in it - enough to cause hydraulic pressure to be too high?
Damper?
There should be two adjustments on the steering box
1. adjusts the height of the sector arm to take out the free play between the worm and roller
2. adjusts a pad that holds the rack on the piston in engagement with the gear teeth on the sector arm/output shaft.
If either of these are too tight they will cause the box to bind.
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Damper loosened. Good half turn. Eeeeyerchh not nice to drive at all, loose and unresponsive dead ahead. But crucially no different lock to lock. Re adjusted to where it was. Can't see a problem there...
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Having looked long and hard for the servo on the box it's clear any work in that area is going to be a total nightmare.
Change pump first.
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Damper loosened. Good half turn. Eeeeyerchh not nice to drive at all, loose and unresponsive dead ahead. But crucially no different lock to lock. Re adjusted to where it was. Can't see a problem there...
I can't find a good photograph of the steering box. This one only shows one adjustment.
By it's location it has to be the sector shaft height adjustment. It should be adjusted so that there is a tiny amount of play at the tight point (which should be straight ahead, but might not be).
Too loose and the steering will be diabolical (as you discovered).
Too tight and immense forces are imposed on the components in the steering box.
If someone has been messing with the adjustment without understanding its purpose I don't think I would ever be totally confident about that steering box again :(
(http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~aholter/DSCF0737.jpg)
PS this photo was of my old 1994 2.5 V6 CD. I cannot see any servotronic gubbins but I don't know if you would see it from this angle :-\
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As far as the damper adjustment goes, there's no problem there. :y
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Servo is directly under the two pipes bolted to the side. Behind the heat shield.
As you can imagine, with engine in place, somewhat tricky to get to. ESP as there are a load of LPG pipes routed found the back of the engine, and straight over the top of the damper adjuster nut and the servo. :(
Good pic though. :y
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In fact, I think that's the wires too the servo plug, going down behind the brake pipes.
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I can see how access might be a problem :(
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Just hurry up and come up with a solution so i can fix mine. ;)
(parts fitted so far, pump and relay)
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Ain't going to be for a while. Sadly. I'm on 12hours for a week and a half. >:(
Does anyone work for a company that can organise a piss up in brewery...?
But as you've changed the pump...
If you fancy a look at the servo, on mine there are two nuts holding the heat shield to the steering box accessed from undernieth, and a 10 mm nut from the top. Under there , from the top/engine bay I'm sure you'll see the servo, under the two power steering pipes.
4 small Allen key bolts to remove... And I'm not sure what happens next... ? ;D
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It's actually 2 x 2.5mm cap bolts, diagonally positioned, other 2 bolts are to hold solenoid together. Absolute git of a job, need a 2.5mm Allen key, but mine were so tight the Allen key snapped, so game over. I sourced what might of been the only remaining solenoid in UK for £55 new from Vauxhall parts specialist who buy up ex stock dealerships.
Expect to part with nearly £200 from Vauxhall, on order from Germany, and waiting time. They are available in USA for cadillacs, but again are couple of hundred dollars.
Attack job from top mostly, remove heater matrix pipes is a must, heat shield can damage wiring to solenoid if not careful as I found out, needs bending and removing from underneath. Working room is non existent, may try 2.5mm hex bit using a ratchet spanner. Bolts x2 only meant to be 2.5 ft/lb but mine were tight enough to shear Allen key.
Will have another go soon.
Best of luck.
Dean
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Hi Dean, do you know which two bolts to undo to remove the unit? As opposed to the two that hold it together...?
Luckily I have a bit set and adapter to work with a ratchet spanner.
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Why are we still considering the solenoid? IMHO, that has been proven to be working as expected given that the steering is heavy in places but still affected by removal of the servotronic box.
IMHO, stiffness in certain parts of the steering travel while the pump pressure relief valve operates points to the box, although there's an outside chance that the pump relief valve could be opening early. I don't think I'd be struggling to get to the servotronic valve given what we know of the problem.
I'd be swapping the pump with a known good (just because it's easy), then it's the box.
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I agree with Mr Wood.
Kevin - I think gayboy is delaying it until he has more cutting discs for his grinder, you know how he has to saw everything open when he takes it off ;D
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I agree with Mr Wood.
Kevin - I think gayboy is delaying it until he has more cutting discs for his grinder, you know how he has to saw everything open when he takes it off ;D
Well, the steering box will keep him out of mischief for a while. ;D
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just until I'm next in town :P
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just until I'm next in town :P
Well, if there is a demo being shown... ::)
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just until I'm next in town :P
Well, if there is a demo being shown... ::)
Yep. :y We'd be happy to demo "curry eating" in return. ::)
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Will have to check on the bolt orientation. Will check my new one, you may find the bolts to be stuck solid as I have! Hence snapped Allen key! Can you send me a pic Chris of tools used, cos I'm struggling to find some to work in a tight space as the job is.
Read all about servotronic solenoids on the Internet, sold it to me where a guy with a volvo v70r had exact troubles, he replaced his and bobs you auntie. The. Volvo didn't have a steering box, but it made sense for me to buy one, albeit not swapped yet, but not too bad if it don't sort it for £55 spent!
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On re reading I havent added...
...while holding a constant 3000 rpm box in neutral, as it would have to be or things might get lively ;D turn the steering towards full lock and it drags the rpm down to 2500 rpm.
Let go of the steering and it goes back up to 3k again.
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That would suggest that the pump is struggling :-\ in the same way that a weak alternator might struggle with meeting a sudden high current draw :-\
Have you tried spinning the pump with the aux belt off with both ignition on and off :-\
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(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k536/tidla1/filter.png)
Behind these screws apparently is a gauze filter. Tis my guess. (pump broke up, lots of bits)
How you get at it is another question.
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C'mon Chris ..... haven't you found this relay yet? ??? This is getting to be a loooooooooooooooooooooong thread1 ::) ::) ::) ;D
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Why are we still considering the solenoid? IMHO, that has been proven to be working as expected given that the steering is heavy in places but still affected by removal of the servotronic box.
IMHO, stiffness in certain parts of the steering travel while the pump pressure relief valve operates points to the box, although there's an outside chance that the pump relief valve could be opening early. I don't think I'd be struggling to get to the servotronic valve given what we know of the problem.
I'd be swapping the pump with a known good (just because it's easy), then it's the box.
sorry, busy day, er... In response to Tidla, as he's changed the pump already, seems a logical step short of changing the box itself. ESP as there's talk of a filter involved.
And yes, as I will be intrigued to know what can happen to a steering box in the space of 60k since I've owned it, that can cause this problem, I will be looking to dismantle the bugger at some point. But only once it's proved faulty. Needless to say I will be somewhat miffed if the box comes out and it's not at fault. :-\ so while it may be making work, and taking longer, I want to be sure it's the box before breaking ball joints, moving LPG gubbins and jacking up engines to get the swine out. :)
I'd rather try the servo first, but that opinion may well change if I had the previous experience of removing a box complete, I guess. :-\
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.
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just until I'm next in town :P
Well, if there is a demo being shown... ::)
Well seeing as I saved him a job doing the dif, it's only fair. :)
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There's a possibility of a "South" trip in the next couple of weeks.
Plus I'll need a parking space while we're in the USA......!
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I'm sure we can all take turns in looking after anything with a V8 in it.. ;)
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Do you think he'll notice if we swap a v6 into his Holden..? :-X
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I won't tell if you don't :-X besides with my misfire it won't sound any different ::)
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oh dear - V8 is the only option at the moment. Got 4 cars on the road just now and they're all V8s
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One each then? ;D
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;D currently have space for a couple here if your drive is a bit busy Chris :y
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One each then? ;D
;D ;D Works for me!
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Today I are be mostly...
Taking the Servo off the steering box to find this filter. After 2woody and I fitted another box I can fiddle with the old one on the bench.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/B3C617B4-3848-4ED6-B46B-D1CDDFF1B5C5-273-0000000D0AF1697B.jpg)
...and found it. Two Allen key bolts remove the servo from the box. Then two Torx dismantle the servo itself. Although dismantling the servo is pointless as the filter was left in the box itself. It's not blocked. Can't see anything obviously wrong, not that I know what I'm looking at.
Filter can just be seen in the recess in the box. Can't see how to get it out without damage. :-\
Might try an airline in one of the other holes and see if it will blow out.
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Grind it in half, you know you want to.
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There a tiny little pilot hole in that grey screw. Wouldn't take much to block it. And there very little movement in the servo needle that covers same hole. Wouldn't take much for it to stick.
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Trying to work out how it works. Presumably a solenoid lowers long needle to close hydraulic pressure (or other way around), but can't see solenoid.
Wonder if the coils on your solenoid were creating a weak field.
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If solenoid fails closed, it would follow that oil pressure can't escape through the "pilot jet" grey screw. So less pressure would mean less assistance...? :-\ I think? :-\
It's such a small hole though. If bigger than 0.5mm I'd be suprised. Can it make that much difference? If so I can see how the slightest change in tolerances would make a big difference in feel at the steering wheel.
Car is so much better now with a different box complete. Thanks to 2woody again. :y
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If solenoid fails closed, it would follow that oil pressure can't escape through the "pilot jet" grey screw. So less pressure would mean less assistance...? :-\ I think? :-\
It's such a small hole though. If bigger than 0.5mm I'd be suprised. Can it make that much difference? If so I can see how the slightest change in tolerances would make a big difference in feel at the steering wheel.
Car is so much better now with a different box complete. Thanks to 2woody again. :y
Good news :y
I can't see where that piston normally lives, any chance of some more photos?
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Yes that was a poor pic just before the phone battery died.
More to follow...
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Grind it in half, you know you want to.
+ 1 (http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j90/rkortes/Fall%202009/smiley2eatingpopcorn.gif)
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Will have to get cracking on my steering box.
Can the solonoid be tested for movement??
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There a tiny little pilot hole in that grey screw. Wouldn't take much to block it. And there very little movement in the servo needle that covers same hole. Wouldn't take much for it to stick.
A little help from sammy sledge before removal?
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More pics
Solenoid, partially dismantled
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/581C0A52-D8EE-420F-A22A-292D7BC582F8-273-000000EFDCC82828.jpg)
Internal parts removed
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/B3C617B4-3848-4ED6-B46B-D1CDDFF1B5C5-273-0000000D0AF1697B.jpg)
Small grey screw has the small hole through the centre that the needle locates in.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/A7A8B02C-7706-4527-A2FE-B1FA11BF8BDF-273-000000EFCCA66002.jpg)
Grey screw like like a main jet in a carburettor, and the needle is also similar except it's actuated by the solenoid instead if a throttle cable.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/9EB837A6-3EBB-415E-96D5-60DA8B3A02B8-273-000000EF99100FF9.jpg)
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Is the needle tapered like a carb needle?
I guess the ECU modulates the solenoid feed to control the position of the needle in the orifice, and this bypasses the box to bleed off pressure?
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Parts involved. In order and removed from the solenoid which is set aside. Needle runs through the middle of the solenoid.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/D43AA680-0BB6-486B-9B3E-F3A79685B65E-273-000000EFC0661054.jpg)
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Is the needle tapered like a carb needle?
I guess the ECU modulates the solenoid feed to control the position of the needle in the orifice, and this bypasses the box to bleed off pressure?
needle is not tapered, it's quite a blunt end on the point of the needle. So it's an on or off situation going by the minimal amount if travel possible. No more than a millimetre movement on the needle.
Then the side holes in the grey screw allow the fluid to pass back into the hole in the box recess immediately to the side of the filter. Afaict.
So yes thats Bout the size of it.
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There a tiny little pilot hole in that grey screw. Wouldn't take much to block it. And there very little movement in the servo needle that covers same hole. Wouldn't take much for it to stick.
A little help from sammy sledge before removal?
worth a go with the heat shield removed I suppose. Problem is its very tight between the box and the engine/manifold, so can't really get a decent swing on it.
To remove the solenoid from the box will be tricky too, as one of the Allen key bolts was seized. I had to drill the head off the bolt to get it off the box. And bent the Allen key undoing the other. Iirc it's only a 2.5 mm Allen bolt.
Worst part of the box removal was getting the servo out and rummaging about in the foot well removing Clevis pins and bulk head bolts.
Provided of course that the box will sqeaze past the coolant transfer pipe. It will on the 3.2 if the Torx to lifting eye bolt is removed. Not sure that will work on other v engines. Egr's might affect things maybe...? :-\
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I hope you are going to post a copy of these photos in the test section for an "inside the power steering box" guide :y
Looking forward to more installments. I am curious to see the condition of the spool valve and also the sector arm and piston.
(http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/steering-rotary-valve.jpg)
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Makings of a guide in here for box removal.
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=106942.0