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Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: feeutfo on 15 May 2012, 12:06:11

Title: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 15 May 2012, 12:06:11
...from All German Parts. Said to be oe supplier. Comes with the dust cap going by the pics.
Needed drop links any way so stuck a couple of barings on the order. Hopefully that's that annoyance sorted.  :)

Lots of nice pics on the web site now.
http://www.allgermanparts.co.uk/ourshop/cat_277900-Steering-and-suspension-components.html
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: TheBoy on 15 May 2012, 20:28:40
Interested how you get on, as the Contitech ones are shite.
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 15 May 2012, 20:41:50
Aaeye conti tech on there now, it's banging away as well as the drop link ATM.
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 22 May 2012, 16:37:18
F.A.G. been on two weeks. All fine. No play.
Now fitted the other side.

As you an see, exactly the same as oe.  Baring numbers the same.  Afaict
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/a47b2fff.jpg)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 22 May 2012, 16:53:05
How much?

Plus can we get the old hubs and see about fitting new bearings?
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 22 May 2012, 17:45:04
£66 each
http://www.allgermanparts.co.uk/ourshop/prod_2034000-Front-wheel-bearing-FAG-brand-OEM-713-6445-40.html

Got an old conti and old oe here.

What are we saying for procedure?
Belt the old ones out with a drift?
Freeze the new baring?
Heat the hub?
Hope the new one pushes in?
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 22 May 2012, 19:12:13
Where are we getting these "barings on thier own" from by the way? ;D
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 22 May 2012, 19:25:41
Number 24

http://opeloem.com/opel/omega_b_1994_2003/front_axle_and_suspension/front_hub.html
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: GmasterT on 22 May 2012, 20:21:54
Yeah, never had an issue with FAG... thats not a double entendre!  ;D
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 22 May 2012, 20:23:35
Yeah, never had an issue with FAG... thats not a double entendre!  ;D
I am waiting for TB to pipe up. ;D
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Gaffers on 22 May 2012, 20:26:45
F.A.G = Film Actors Guild? ::)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 22 May 2012, 20:49:57
So, i put it to oof...

The inner race does not exist separately. It is machined into the hub itself, and the races pop in to that, then the outer races in turn pop in to those.

There is no separate baring complete, that presses into the hub.


Tell me I'm wrong. :)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Entwood on 22 May 2012, 20:56:57
So, i put it to oof...

The inner race does not exist separately. It is machined into the hub itself, and the races pop in to that, then the outer races in turn pop in to those.

There is no separate baring complete, that presses into the hub.


Tell me I'm wrong. :)

You're wrong.

The inner race often gets "left behind" on the stub shaft on removing the old bearing .. but must be removed.

Given the "right" kit a complete bearing can be pressed into the ABS ring that is really just a bearing carrier. Most places though sell the ABS ring/hub + bearing as a complete unit.

the bearing itself is shown as one of the portions of 24 here..VX don't sell it as a seperate item

http://opeloem.com/opel/omega_b_1994_2003/front_axle_and_suspension/front_hub.html
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 22 May 2012, 21:13:31
So, i put it to oof...

The inner race does not exist separately. It is machined into the hub itself, and the races pop in to that, then the outer races in turn pop in to those.

There is no separate baring complete, that presses into the hub.


Tell me I'm wrong. :)

You're wrong.

The inner race often gets "left behind" on the stub shaft on removing the old bearing .. but must be removed.

Given the "right" kit a complete bearing can be pressed into the ABS ring that is really just a bearing carrier. Most places though sell the ABS ring/hub + bearing as a complete unit.

the bearing itself is shown as one of the portions of 24 here..VX don't sell it as a seperate item

http://opeloem.com/opel/omega_b_1994_2003/front_axle_and_suspension/front_hub.html
vx don't sell it as it doesn't exist. If it does I can't find it.

I should add we are talking about the same thing. The inner race that gets left on the hub has been removed. Both of them. Then there the barings with plastic cage thing.
With all that romeved that leaves what I called the inner race, as I'm working my way into the baring, if you see what I mean. ( actually the outer race from the centre)

As you say, item 24 shows the hub with reluctor ring built in. Between that and the stub axle there is what appears to be a baring. A complete baring. Where do we get this complete baring...?

Theres no sign of it on the web. There for I dont believe the complete baring exists. There for there is nothing to press in.
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 22 May 2012, 21:39:51
Does that make sense.... ? :-\
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Entwood on 22 May 2012, 21:48:16
Does that make sense.... ? :-\

I see what you are getting at for sure ... but I'm sure MarkDTM was on about pressing new bearings into old hubs when mine were re-replaced after Newent when he tried to take out the play in the so called new one.... to the extent that I have kept the hub at his request to give to him as and when so he could play.... it's just a matter of finding someone who will sell the bearings ... :(
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 22 May 2012, 22:03:47
Parts in the pic...

Conti Shite jobby
Hub at the top
Barring races on the left
Inboard inner race at the bottom
Outboard inner race on the right
Seal bottom right corner

There is nothing else to take apart, afaict...?
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/641a49ca.jpg)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 22 May 2012, 22:06:12
Parts in the pic...

Conti Shite jobby
Hub at the top
Barring races on the left
Inboard inner race at the bottom
Outboard inner race on the right
Seal bottom right corner

There is nothing else to take apart, afaict...?
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/641a49ca.jpg)

that bearing outer shell looks like it will knock out
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 22 May 2012, 22:07:07
Close up of the outer race in the hub. If we are to replace a complete baring, those races in the hub have to come out. And I can't see how they can. :-\
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/bb56e191.jpg)

Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 22 May 2012, 22:10:09
the shiny bit in that photo should tap out through the back if you chisel from the wheel side
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 22 May 2012, 22:15:17
the shiny bit in that photo should tap out through the back if you chisel from the wheel side
That is the wheel side. The hole at the back of the picture is the outboard smaller side.
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 22 May 2012, 22:18:48
......And I can't see how they can. :-\
.......

A run of stick/MMA weld around the bearing inner normally helps or weld something across the middle that you can then hit!  :y :y :y
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 22 May 2012, 22:20:17
the shiny bit in that photo should tap out through the back if you chisel from the wheel side
That is the wheel side. The hole at the back of the picture is the outboard smaller side.

is there a lip in that bearing ring that you could knock it out(if you can imagine lifting the ring you see in your picture up towards the abs ring,sorry I'm shite at trying to describe what i mean :'()
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 22 May 2012, 22:23:12
.....

is there a lip in that bearing ring that you could knock it out .....

there would be if you welded one in  ;) ;) ;) :y
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 22 May 2012, 22:24:04
.....

is there a lip in that bearing ring that you could knock it out .....

there would be if you welded one in  ;) ;) ;) :y

aye,true enough :y :y
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 22 May 2012, 22:26:57
.....

is there a lip in that bearing ring that you could knock it out .....

there would be if you welded one in  ;) ;) ;) :y

aye,true enough :y :y

It's often the heat from the welding that helps the bearing inners fall out ........... especially if you crank the amps up!!  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 22 May 2012, 22:39:57
If that race was seperate to the hub, the hub (and the wheel) would fall off. Leaving the bearing on the stub axle.

The outer race is machined into the hub. Or put it another way, the hub IS the outer race.
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Kevin Wood on 22 May 2012, 22:47:22
I reckon the races will come out.  ;)

The whole lot is sandwiched together by the hub nut so it can't move, that's why the wheel doesn't come off.
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 22 May 2012, 22:47:42
If that race was seperate to the hub, the hub (and the wheel) would fall off. Leaving the bearing on the stub axle.

The outer race is machined into the hub. Or put it another way, the hub IS the outer race.

Which side are you talking about?
the race shown in this picture HAS to be a separate seat, it'll seat right up to a shoulder machined in the hub (& presumably the same on the other side so that as you tighten the hub nut you load up the pair of bearings) (http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/641a49ca.jpg)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 22 May 2012, 22:50:10
If that race was seperate to the hub, the hub (and the wheel) would fall off. Leaving the bearing on the stub axle.

The outer race is machined into the hub. Or put it another way, the hub IS the outer race.

Which side are you talking about?
the race shown in this picture HAS to be a separate seat, it'll seat right up to a shoulder machined in the hub (& presumably the same on the other side so that as you tighten the hub nut you load up the pair of bearings) (http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/641a49ca.jpg)

the bearing race will be hardened steel but the rest of the hub isn't therefore its seperate
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 22 May 2012, 22:51:31
....
the bearing race will be hardened steel but the rest of the hub isn't therefore its seperate

That too!  :y :y
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 22 May 2012, 23:04:22
If that race was seperate to the hub, the hub (and the wheel) would fall off. Leaving the bearing on the stub axle.

The outer race is machined into the hub. Or put it another way, the hub IS the outer race.

Which side are you talking about?
the race shown in this picture HAS to be a separate seat, it'll seat right up to a shoulder machined in the hub (& presumably the same on the other side so that as you tighten the hub nut you load up the pair of bearings) (http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/641a49ca.jpg)
There are two races in the pic. The one you see, and one behind it. It's double sided one either side of the same central ridge.

So think of ot this way,there's the inner inboard race on the stub axle, the the ball race with plastic cage, then the hub goes on which forms one side of the double race baring complete...then the second ball race with plastic cage goes in on the race you can see. Then the outboard inner race goes in followed by the nut that squeezes the two inner races together onto the single ridge in the hub(the one you can see) there by holding the hub in place. If the central ridge was separately pressed in, the weight of the car would lever the hub off the baring.

1.Is there any reason the inside of the hub couldn't be hardened in a seperate process?
2. Can somebody show me the baring complete to be pressed in?
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 22 May 2012, 23:18:39
... If the central ridge was separately pressed in, the weight of the car would lever the hub off the baring.
The shoulder is machined (or not - whichever way you look at it) into the hub  :y



1.Is there any reason the inside of the hub couldn't be hardened in a seperate process?
Cost.  ;) ;)


2. Can somebody show me the baring complete to be pressed in?
Sorry! I just bought my hub/bearing & paid someone else to fit it on the basis I was too bone idle to do it myself.  ::) ::)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 22 May 2012, 23:37:16
... If the central ridge was separately pressed in, the weight of the car would lever the hub off the baring.
The shoulder is machined (or not - whichever way you look at it) into the hub  :y



1.Is there any reason the inside of the hub couldn't be hardened in a seperate process?
Cost.  ;) ;)


2. Can somebody show me the baring complete to be pressed in?
Sorry! I just bought my hub/bearing & paid someone else to fit it on the basis I was too bone idle to do it myself.  ::) ::)
;D Right, so you argued earlier, which bit of the hub pictured needs to be removed? There's nothing left to remove Andy. ;D
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 22 May 2012, 23:45:40
.....
;D Right, so you argued earlier, which bit of the hub pictured needs to be removed? There's nothing left to remove Andy. ;D

Did I  ??? ::)
Still say that the bearing outers back up to a central shoulder inside the hub. If you remember back to Newent, MarksDTm was trying to 'polish' a little off the mating faces of the two inners to take up the slack in the hub as a whole - an alternative to that would be a few 'thou' shim under one of the outers.

Or buy OE  ;) ;)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 22 May 2012, 23:55:15
.....
;D Right, so you argued earlier, which bit of the hub pictured needs to be removed? There's nothing left to remove Andy. ;D

Did I  ??? ::)
Still say that the bearing outers back up to a central shoulder inside the hub. If you remember back to Newent, MarksDTm was trying to 'polish' a little off the mating faces of the two inners to take up the slack in the hub as a whole - an alternative to that would be a few 'thou' shim under one of the outers.

Or buy OE  ;) ;)
What?  ;D
You'll be telling me it turns 360 degrees next. Maybe it's a Bury thing ;D
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 22 May 2012, 23:59:12
I reckon the races will come out.  ;)

The whole lot is sandwiched together by the hub nut so it can't move, that's why the wheel doesn't come off.
The races are already out. ;)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 00:00:34

Plus can we get the old hubs and see about fitting new bearings?
No! ;D
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 23 May 2012, 00:10:29
I'll sort you out with a large slitting disc & then you can cut one in half to see what goes where ..............  ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 23 May 2012, 00:11:35
I reckon the races will come out.  ;)

The whole lot is sandwiched together by the hub nut so it can't move, that's why the wheel doesn't come off.
The races are already out. ;)

Kevin means the outers ..........   ::)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 00:14:17
I reckon the races will come out.  ;)

The whole lot is sandwiched together by the hub nut so it can't move, that's why the wheel doesn't come off.
The races are already out. ;)

Kevin means the outers ..........   ::)

Ffs, I know ;D
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 00:15:51
I'll sort you out with a large slitting disc & then you can cut one in half to see what goes where ..............  ;) ;) ;)
I'll send you the hub and you can waist your time as well. :)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 23 May 2012, 00:18:38
I'll sort you out with a large slitting disc & then you can cut one in half to see what goes where ..............  ;) ;) ;)
I'll send you the hub and you can waiste your time as well. :)

I you like ............... it can be a 'project' for one of the apprentices at work  ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Kevin Wood on 23 May 2012, 00:22:52
I reckon the races will come out.  ;)

The whole lot is sandwiched together by the hub nut so it can't move, that's why the wheel doesn't come off.
The races are already out. ;)

Kevin means the outers ..........   ::)

Actually I meant all 4 races. You've only got the outer races out so far. ;)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 23 May 2012, 08:19:26
I reckon the races will come out.  ;)

The whole lot is sandwiched together by the hub nut so it can't move, that's why the wheel doesn't come off.
The races are already out. ;)

Kevin means the outers ..........   ::)

Actually I meant all 4 races. You've only got the outer races out so far. ;)

Surely you mean the two inners  :-\ :-\ ie the two parts that butt up to each other when you tighten the hub nut
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: andyc on 23 May 2012, 08:58:36
If you can get FAG Hub assy for sixty five quid is it really worth mucking about trying to fine bearings that fit and to try and fit them?

Andy

Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Kevin Wood on 23 May 2012, 09:31:20
Surely you mean the two inners  :-\ :-\ ie the two parts that butt up to each other when you tighten the hub nut

Arhh. I'm confused too now. Anyone on this thread not confused? ::)

Bottom line, as said, the bearing consists of 4 races and 2 bearings, all of which will separate from the hub since, as henryd said, the hub is cast iron and the races will be hardened steel.

Chris, if you want to try the welding trick to get them out you're welcome to pop over. :y
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 10:40:23
Right last time.
I have the two inner races out that fit on the shaft of the stub axle. That's the inboard and out board inner stub axle ones as you can see. Then the two baring cages are out.

That still leaves two races still in the hub. Now, those two races are part of a central ridge, one side of which you can see in the pic taken from the wheel side/back of the hub. One race either side of the ridge. That ridge is part of the hub.
The hub is steel btw.

Look at it another way. The hub rotates as it must with the wheel fixed to it. If a baring complete is pressed into that, only the inner stub axle races are held by the nut. (There's no denying that otherwise the wheel won't turn.)there for only the inner stub axle races are attached to the car! The barings spin obviously then there's the hub spinning with the wheel. Now, as I've said before, ALL the cornering forces of the car go through that centre ridge in the hub. Can you imagine the strain thats under esp with TB driving? ;D The leverage will be incredible. More than enough leverage to over come any pressing in tonnage used to force a complete baring in.

We know over tightening the nut has a slight influence on wheel baring play. That means the two stub axle inner races are being forced onto that central ridge of the hub taking out some of that play.

The outer races in the hub as pictured need to be replaced if we are to refurb the hub with completely new baring. There for two more races need to come out of the hub. Yes?


Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 10:47:43
If you can get FAG Hub assy for sixty five quid is it really worth mucking about trying to fine bearings that fit and to try and fit them?
Andy
Hi Andy, we used to use conti tech barings for £35 odd, but these turned to shite as soon as I started using them for some reason. It transpires these are not oe quality, and it was not possible to tighten out all the play.
 Hence a search for oe quality barings.
 
There is an oof legend, similar to the Carlton bush legend, that the baring can be pressed out of the hub. This a myth. :)

Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 23 May 2012, 11:01:55
Right last time.
I have the two inner races out that fit on the shaft of the stub axle. That's the inboard and out board inner stub axle ones as you can see. Then the two baring cages are out.

That still leaves two races still in the hub. Now, those two races are part of a central ridge, one side of which you can see in the pic taken from the wheel side/back of the hub. One race either side of the ridge. That ridge is part of the hub.
The hub is steel btw.

Look at it another way. The hub rotates as it must with the wheel fixed to it. If a baring complete is pressed into that, only the inner stub axle races are held by the nut. (There's no denying that otherwise the wheel won't turn.)there for only the inner stub axle races are attached to the car! The barings spin obviously then there's the hub spinning with the wheel. Now, as I've said before, ALL the cornering forces of the car go through that centre ridge in the hub. Can you imagine the strain thats under esp with TB driving? ;D The leverage will be incredible. More than enough leverage to over come any pressing in tonnage used to force a complete baring in.

We know over tightening the nut has a slight influence on wheel baring play. That means the two stub axle inner races are being forced onto that central ridge of the hub taking out some of that play.

The outer races in the hub as pictured need to be replaced if we are to refurb the hub with completely new baring. There for two more races need to come out of the hub. Yes?

yes, one from front and one from back :y incidently a lot of modern kit(ie focus) have the bearing pressed in but have no circlips to retain them, ???
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 23 May 2012, 11:10:50
....
Arhh. I'm confused too now.  ....

Not just me then ...........  :-\ :-\ ;D
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 23 May 2012, 11:18:51
Just did a search Chris on the bearing number in your picture of the complete hub DACF1018L and it comes up with this

http://www.gasgoo.com/showroom/delfuparts/auto-products/1010444.html

not sure if the bearings themselves will be easy to find ???
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 11:21:43
Right last time.
I have the two inner races out that fit on the shaft of the stub axle. That's the inboard and out board inner stub axle ones as you can see. Then the two baring cages are out.

That still leaves two races still in the hub. Now, those two races are part of a central ridge, one side of which you can see in the pic taken from the wheel side/back of the hub. One race either side of the ridge. That ridge is part of the hub.
The hub is steel btw.

Look at it another way. The hub rotates as it must with the wheel fixed to it. If a baring complete is pressed into that, only the inner stub axle races are held by the nut. (There's no denying that otherwise the wheel won't turn.)there for only the inner stub axle races are attached to the car! The barings spin obviously then there's the hub spinning with the wheel. Now, as I've said before, ALL the cornering forces of the car go through that centre ridge in the hub. Can you imagine the strain thats under esp with TB driving? ;D The leverage will be incredible. More than enough leverage to over come any pressing in tonnage used to force a complete baring in.

We know over tightening the nut has a slight influence on wheel baring play. That means the two stub axle inner races are being forced onto that central ridge of the hub taking out some of that play.

The outer races in the hub as pictured need to be replaced if we are to refurb the hub with completely new baring. There for two more races need to come out of the hub. Yes?

yes, one from front and one from back :y incidently a lot of modern kit(ie focus) have the bearing pressed in but have no circlips to retain them, ???
Yes in order to refurb the baring fully. But that's the thing, the hub race is part of the hub. It's not a baring shell separate to the hub, there for it can not be removed. In turn, there is no refurbing the hub with a new baring, as the hub itself IS the outer baring shell.
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 23 May 2012, 11:24:36
Right last time.
I have the two inner races out that fit on the shaft of the stub axle. That's the inboard and out board inner stub axle ones as you can see. Then the two baring cages are out.

That still leaves two races still in the hub. Now, those two races are part of a central ridge, one side of which you can see in the pic taken from the wheel side/back of the hub. One race either side of the ridge. That ridge is part of the hub.
The hub is steel btw.

Look at it another way. The hub rotates as it must with the wheel fixed to it. If a baring complete is pressed into that, only the inner stub axle races are held by the nut. (There's no denying that otherwise the wheel won't turn.)there for only the inner stub axle races are attached to the car! The barings spin obviously then there's the hub spinning with the wheel. Now, as I've said before, ALL the cornering forces of the car go through that centre ridge in the hub. Can you imagine the strain thats under esp with TB driving? ;D The leverage will be incredible. More than enough leverage to over come any pressing in tonnage used to force a complete baring in.

We know over tightening the nut has a slight influence on wheel baring play. That means the two stub axle inner races are being forced onto that central ridge of the hub taking out some of that play.

The outer races in the hub as pictured need to be replaced if we are to refurb the hub with completely new baring. There for two more races need to come out of the hub. Yes?

yes, one from front and one from back :y incidently a lot of modern kit(ie focus) have the bearing pressed in but have no circlips to retain them, ???
Yes in order to refurb the baring fully. But that's the thing, the hub race is part of the hub. It's not a baring shell separate to the hub, there for it can not be removed. In turn, there is no refurbing the hub with a new baring, as the hub itself IS the outer baring shell.

I'd be very surprised if it is ???
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 11:25:43
Just did a search Chris on the bearing number in your picture of the complete hub DACF1018L and it comes up with this

http://www.gasgoo.com/showroom/delfuparts/auto-products/1010444.html

not sure if the bearings themselves will be easy to find ???
As I said earlier, somebody show me a bearing to press in, available on the market. Non exists.
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 11:27:23
Right last time.
I have the two inner races out that fit on the shaft of the stub axle. That's the inboard and out board inner stub axle ones as you can see. Then the two baring cages are out.

That still leaves two races still in the hub. Now, those two races are part of a central ridge, one side of which you can see in the pic taken from the wheel side/back of the hub. One race either side of the ridge. That ridge is part of the hub.
The hub is steel btw.

Look at it another way. The hub rotates as it must with the wheel fixed to it. If a baring complete is pressed into that, only the inner stub axle races are held by the nut. (There's no denying that otherwise the wheel won't turn.)there for only the inner stub axle races are attached to the car! The barings spin obviously then there's the hub spinning with the wheel. Now, as I've said before, ALL the cornering forces of the car go through that centre ridge in the hub. Can you imagine the strain thats under esp with TB driving? ;D The leverage will be incredible. More than enough leverage to over come any pressing in tonnage used to force a complete baring in.

We know over tightening the nut has a slight influence on wheel baring play. That means the two stub axle inner races are being forced onto that central ridge of the hub taking out some of that play.

The outer races in the hub as pictured need to be replaced if we are to refurb the hub with completely new baring. There for two more races need to come out of the hub. Yes?

yes, one from front and one from back :y incidently a lot of modern kit(ie focus) have the bearing pressed in but have no circlips to retain them, ???
Yes in order to refurb the baring fully. But that's the thing, the hub race is part of the hub. It's not a baring shell separate to the hub, there for it can not be removed. In turn, there is no refurbing the hub with a new baring, as the hub itself IS the outer baring shell.

I'd be very surprised if it is ???
I'm not. Consider the forces on that centre race in the hub.
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Kevin Wood on 23 May 2012, 11:36:01
.. and I thought I was confused before! ;)

Right, let's get the terminology consistent. What are we referring to with inner and outer? Here's my take on it:

A bearing consists of 2 races with a roller assembly sandwiched between them. In the hub you effectively have 2 bearings, hence you've ended up with 2 roller assemblies (the ball bearings).

Each of these bearings has an inner race and an outer race. The outer races have a fairly loose fit over the stub axle protruding from the suspension upright/knuckle, over which they slide. One buts against the upright on the inside, the other against the hub nut which is then tightened, drawing the two together. They are therefore firmly fixed to the car and don't move. These are the two races you have on the bench in the photo.

The inner races are a press fit into the hub, one is inserted from the inside, one from the outside. Once fully home they butt up against either side of a ridge in the centre of the bore through the hub so they can' pull right through and liberate the wheel. These inner races are still present in the hub in your photo.

The roller assemblies, which, again, you have in your photo, sit between the inner and outer races. Once the hub nut is tight, the two outer races butt together, and the two inner races butt against the ridge inside the hub. This establishes the correct clearance for free running of the bearing without it getting tight or having significant play.

The forces from the wheel are transferred from the inner races to the outer races through the roller assemblies and, with the bearing clearance correct, this is distributed around the circumference of both sets of races meaning it's very strong.

To replace the whole bearing in a hub, you need to press out the inner races, as these are wear items along with the outer races and roller assemblies. This might currently be a challenge as there might not be much of a lip between the race and the ridge inside the hub, hence the recommendation to weld something onto the race which you can then use to drift it out. The heat from the weld will also loosen the fit of the race in the hub.

For the bearing to run with the correct clearance, you are relying on the clearance between the two outer races and the clearance between the two inner races being very consistent. Note that the hub is also a variable here, as the thickness of the lip inside the hub contributes to the running clearance.

Now, the conti bearings exhibited play from day one, so something was not correct there. The assembly was too loose. Shaving a bit of material off the centre of the outer races where they butt together would tighten the bearing up a little, and I suspect this is what Mark did on Entwood's car.

Buying the hub with the bearing might help in this respect, because all the variables are in the control of the bearing supplier - hub, races and rollers, so they can engineer them for the correct clearance. Clearly didn't help with conti, though. ::)

But.. back to the point. If you bought just a bearing, intending to fit it to your existing hub, you would be supplied with 4 races and 2 roller assemblies. ;)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 23 May 2012, 11:40:12
What Kev says  :y

.......... but I'd consider the inner & outer to be the other way round  ;)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 11:45:04
If it(the bearing) existed. Which it doesn't, because the hub is part of the bearing itself.
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 23 May 2012, 11:46:24
The inners/outers that are pressed into the hub will look something like these .......... I know the whole thing looks different, but the forces on the ball race will be similar.

(http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/thrust-ball-bearing-559197.jpg)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 11:46:49
I was using kevs terminology until wing commander bloody Entwood intervened ;) ;D
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 23 May 2012, 11:47:10
If it(the bearing) existed. Which it doesn't, because the hub is part of the bearing itself.

Have you got an old hub?  :-\
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 11:49:16
If it(the bearing) existed. Which it doesn't, because the hub is part of the bearing itself.

Have you got an old hub?  :-\
yes Andy. The one in the picture.
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 23 May 2012, 11:54:37
If it(the bearing) existed. Which it doesn't, because the hub is part of the bearing itself.

Have you got an old hub?  :-\
yes Andy. The one in the picture.

Take it to somewhere that can run a good bead of weld along the outer (Kev's inner ;)) ie where the bearing race runs, and watch it fall out.  :y :y :y :y
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 11:59:48
If it(the bearing) existed. Which it doesn't, because the hub is part of the bearing itself.

Have you got an old hub?  :-\
yes Andy. The one in the picture.

Take it to somewhere that can run a good bead of weld along the outer (Kev's inner ;)) ie where the bearing race runs, and watch it fall out.  :y :y :y :y
If all it takes for it to fall out is a bead of Weald then we are all driving round in death traps.

And if heat expands, why will it fall out? Do we not need to heat the hub?
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 23 May 2012, 12:02:45
If it(the bearing) existed. Which it doesn't, because the hub is part of the bearing itself.

Have you got an old hub?  :-\
yes Andy. The one in the picture.

Take it to somewhere that can run a good bead of weld along the outer (Kev's inner ;)) ie where the bearing race runs, and watch it fall out.  :y :y :y :y
If all it takes for it to fall out is a bead of Weald then we are all driving round in death traps.

And if heat expands, why will it fall out? Do we not head to heat the hub?

No we are not,doesn't matter if the bearings press in and out easily,once fitted to the stubaxle and bolted up they are retained :y
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 23 May 2012, 12:05:39
This is what the exploded view of the hub will look like

http://www.timken.com/en-us/products/bearings/productlist/integrated/PublishingImages/wheel-pac-exploded.gif
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 12:06:08
There no point discussing this, nobodys listening
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 12:09:55
Right, all that aside...

I'll look further into this, IF somebody can prove to me that a complete baring is available to buy.
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Lazydocker on 23 May 2012, 12:24:00
If you can get FAG Hub assy for sixty five quid is it really worth mucking about trying to fine bearings that fit and to try and fit them?
Andy
Hi Andy, we used to use conti tech barings for £35 odd, but these turned to shite as soon as I started using them for some reason. It transpires these are not oe quality, and it was not possible to tighten out all the play.
 Hence a search for oe quality barings.
 
There is an oof legend, similar to the Carlton bush legend, that the baring can be pressed out of the hub. This a myth. :)

Can't see how it's a myth. It must be possible because they are not cast into the hub assembly, they are a separate item from a different material ;) Whether it's worthwhile or not is a different question, but it will be possible ;)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: omega3000 on 23 May 2012, 12:38:33
There no point discussing this, nobodys listening

 ;D
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: YZ250 on 23 May 2012, 13:30:18
Chris,
To satisfy your curiosity, why don't you pop in to a bearing company and ask them. When we cannot match bearings for machines at work from a catalogue, we ask someone like 'Bolts & Bearings' for their advice.
On a side note, when I was a toolmaker for MOD, I have fitted parts that appear to not come off.  A quick example would be a spigot dipped in Liquid Nitrogen (in a controlled area of course) and a bearing/bush at just above room temperature. Push the two together, let them settle to normal temperature and you would swear that they were inseparable. A large company would cruise a process like this as I am talking years ago.
Failing that, as others have said, you'll have to dissect it to satisfy your curiosity.  :y

Just a thought.  :-\

Regards
Alan
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: andyc on 23 May 2012, 14:04:54
Ok i think i know what Chris is talking about

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w245/andyc2411/wheel-pac-exploded1.gif)

Although the pic is a taper bearing set it give you an idea. I think what Chris is trying to say is that item No1 is the outer race and its this part that is part of the hub assy so won't come out

No3 is the inner race and its this part that have the shaft running through it. from the pics Chris has posted he has got No3 out and No2 but not No1

Anywhere close Chris?

Andy

Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: 05omegav6 on 23 May 2012, 14:28:59
Is it possible that GM are unable to supply the bearings and hubs seperately because they were only ever supplied as a complete unit  :-\ therefore VX would only ever be able to sell a complete hub assembly...

I think that Andy C understands the point that Chris is trying to make :y

Only two solutions

1. Fight :P

2. Slice one in half and see what falls out :y
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 15:20:13
That's it Andyc.  Correct.

 Search the baring number. A baring on its own does not come up. Only the complete unit. That is because they are one in the same.

As said, I'm not waisting any more time tools etc with this until a supplier can be found for a complete baring unit that presses in to the hub. Show me one of those purchased ready for pressing and I'll take it further.


But don't waist your time. All you'll find is the complete unit.
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 23 May 2012, 15:31:52
That's it Andyc.  Correct.

 Search the baring number. A baring on its own does not come up. Only the complete unit. That is because they are one in the same.

As said, I'm not waisting any more time tools etc with this until a supplier can be found for a complete baring unit that presses in to the hub. Show me one of those purchased ready for pressing and I'll take it further

But don't waist your time. All you'll find is the complete unit.



It will be two separate bearings similar to andyc's picture,but as you say if the bearings cant be sourced then its a pointless exercise


just found this on fleabay,wondering now if its a monoblock bearing fitted like the one in the add.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vauxhall-Omega-Saloon-94-04-Front-Wheel-Bearing-Kit-/230785929035?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSI%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%252BFICS
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 15:47:54
That's it Andyc.  Correct.

 Search the baring number. A baring on its own does not come up. Only the complete unit. That is because they are one in the same.

As said, I'm not waisting any more time tools etc with this until a supplier can be found for a complete baring unit that presses in to the hub. Show me one of those purchased ready for pressing and I'll take it further

But don't waist your time. All you'll find is the complete unit.



It will be two separate bearings similar to andyc's picture,but as you say if the bearings cant be sourced then its a pointless exercise


just found this on fleabay,wondering now if its a monoblock bearing fitted like the one in the add.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vauxhall-Omega-Saloon-94-04-Front-Wheel-Bearing-Kit-/230785929035?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSI%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%252BFICS

Looks like a rear to me tbh. I know it says front, but there's no red seal like that involved on the front that I've seen.
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 23 May 2012, 15:49:32
That's it Andyc.  Correct.

 Search the baring number. A baring on its own does not come up. Only the complete unit. That is because they are one in the same.

As said, I'm not waisting any more time tools etc with this until a supplier can be found for a complete baring unit that presses in to the hub. Show me one of those purchased ready for pressing and I'll take it further

But don't waist your time. All you'll find is the complete unit.



It will be two separate bearings similar to andyc's picture,but as you say if the bearings cant be sourced then its a pointless exercise


just found this on fleabay,wondering now if its a monoblock bearing fitted like the one in the add.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vauxhall-Omega-Saloon-94-04-Front-Wheel-Bearing-Kit-/230785929035?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSI%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%252BFICS

Looks like a rear to me tbh. I know it says front, but there's no red seal like that involved on the front that I've seen.

Yeah,could be that they've ballsed up
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Kevin Wood on 23 May 2012, 15:50:41
I'm guessing the picture is a generic bearing not an Omega one, but at that price would you be getting the hub as well? :-\
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: andyc on 23 May 2012, 15:59:34
Interesting! The Carlton Hub is the same as the Omega, gone on chris you know you want to :y
 
Andy
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 23 May 2012, 16:06:34
Interesting! The Carlton Hub is the same as the Omega, gone on chris you know you want to :y
 
Andy

And are the bearings available separately or is it a complete hub as well ?
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 23 May 2012, 16:09:07
There no point discussing this, nobodys listening

least of all ......... you!  ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 16:26:09
Interesting! The Carlton Hub is the same as the Omega, gone on chris you know you want to :y
 
Andy
The only thing removable from the hub is the abs stator, that's pressed on.

Other than that there is no break in the internal machining surfaces to allow a baring race to be removed. There's bluing from hardening process evident.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/9c6eee35.jpg)

(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/93d51645.jpg)


Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 16:30:21
There no point discussing this, nobodys listening

least of all ......... you!  ;) ;) ;)
Andy that's just obtuse. I have the thing here in front of me on the bench.
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 23 May 2012, 16:34:38
.....
Andy that's just obtuse. I have the thing here in front of me on the bench.

Moi  ::) ::) ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obFHu7DCsEs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obFHu7DCsEs)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 16:42:08
.....
Andy that's just obtuse. I have the thing here in front of me on the bench.

Moi  ::) ::) ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obFHu7DCsEs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obFHu7DCsEs)
.....
Andy that's just obtuse. I have the thing here in front of me on the bench.

Moi  ::) ::) ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obFHu7DCsEs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obFHu7DCsEs)
ah, the Shawshank education system live and well in Bury I see. ;D
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 23 May 2012, 17:43:25
Your wrong Chris, the race you consider to be part of the hub isnt, its an insert and can be removed.

AndyC.....can you please confirm what part number 90510542 is  :y

I know I could get that race out in about 30 mins tops.
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: RobG on 23 May 2012, 17:49:30
http://173.201.23.239/vauxhall.php?partnumber=90510542&manufacturerinfo=true
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 23 May 2012, 17:52:42
http://173.201.23.239/vauxhall.php?partnumber=90510542&manufacturerinfo=true

Lol, I will have to login to channel21, the description I had was 'Front; Saloon; Wheel Bearing Kit; Ø 74mm'
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 23 May 2012, 17:57:01
Just to put an engineering slant on this, bearing steel has to be hard and hence is brittle, if the whole hub was made of it then it would potentialy crack and fracture, it would also be very pricey.  :y
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: RobG on 23 May 2012, 17:58:07
Fits a Calibra front ???
http://www.vauxhall-car-parts.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_copy_of_copy_of_copy_of_copy_of_Bearings.html
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Gaffers on 23 May 2012, 18:00:23
F.A.G = Film Actors Guild? ::)

My talent is wasted here......
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: RobG on 23 May 2012, 18:01:31
F.A.G = Film Actors Guild? ::)

My talent is wasted here......
Bugger off then ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 23 May 2012, 18:02:34
Your wrong Chris, the race you consider to be part of the hub isnt, its an insert and can be removed.

AndyC.....can you please confirm what part number 90510542 is  :y

I know I could get that race out in about 30 mins tops.

Mark,do you reckon its two separate bearings or one one double bearing?
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 23 May 2012, 18:04:49
Your wrong Chris, the race you consider to be part of the hub isnt, its an insert and can be removed.

AndyC.....can you please confirm what part number 90510542 is  :y

I know I could get that race out in about 30 mins tops.

Mark,do you reckon its two separate bearings or one one double bearing?

There a double race ball bearing made of a single outer race, two sets of balls and twin inner races.

I took one apart 4+ years ago when we did one of TB's and hence how I know you can remove the item in question (I run a bead of weld around the inside and they then pretty much fall out)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 23 May 2012, 18:06:20
.....
(I run a bead of weld around the inside and they then pretty much fall out)

Sir ......... I thank you  ;) ;) ;)

Chris .....................  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 23 May 2012, 18:12:56
.....
(I run a bead of weld around the inside and they then pretty much fall out)

Sir ......... I thank you  ;) ;) ;)

Chris .....................  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Its simples Andy  :y ;D
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Gaffers on 23 May 2012, 18:16:14
F.A.G = Film Actors Guild? ::)

My talent is wasted here......
Bugger off then ;D ;D ;D

Haven't you got a sister you need to shag? :P
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 23 May 2012, 18:16:34
.....
(I run a bead of weld around the inside and they then pretty much fall out)

Sir ......... I thank you  ;) ;) ;)

Chris .....................  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Its simples Andy  :y ;D

.......
Take it to somewhere that can run a good bead of weld along the outer (Kev's inner ;)) ie where the bearing race runs, and watch it fall out.  :y :y :y :y

It is indeed.  ;) :y :y :y
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 19:22:02
Your wrong Chris, the race you consider to be part of the hub isnt, its an insert and can be removed.

AndyC.....can you please confirm what part number 90510542 is  :y

I know I could get that race out in about 30 mins tops.
I asked you at Newent how the race came out and you said you didn't know.  ???

Right, if you say so, disc cutter time? Or is the disc going the shatter?
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 20:04:49
Is this piece deep enough to show this none existent baring shell ?
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/51e83f06.jpg)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: TheBoy on 23 May 2012, 20:52:36
chrisgixer, hard to tell from pics, but where blue arrow is, is that a 'join'

(http://images.omegaowners.com/members/theboy/bearing-front.JPG)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: 05omegav6 on 23 May 2012, 21:34:54
Surely then the bearing shell between the 2 cuts should simply fall off :-\ only gravity holding it in place :-\

Unless it's part of the casting...
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 23 May 2012, 21:37:40
Surely then the bearing shell between the 2 cuts should simply fall off :-\ only gravity holding it in place :-\

Unless it's part of the casting...

the cut on the right isn't deep enough, I'm not even sure the cut on the left is quite deep enough either  :-\ :-\
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 21:40:25
Surely then the bearing shell between the 2 cuts should simply fall off :-\ only gravity holding it in place :-\

Unless it's part of the casting...
Exactly as Al says. If that is join marked by TB, why hasn't the shell/race fallen away from the part removed?


Unless its part of the casting/hub?
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 23 May 2012, 21:47:17
Surely then the bearing shell between the 2 cuts should simply fall off :-\ only gravity holding it in place :-\

Unless it's part of the casting...
Exactly as Al says. If that is join marked by TB, why hasn't the shell/race fallen away from the part removed?


Unless its part of the casting/hub?

As above ......... you ain't gone deep enough. Nearly through on the left, but no where near on the right cut.  :y
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 23 May 2012, 21:54:26
Chris as Mdtm said the outer races that you chopping away at are all one piece so you need to cut more :D :y
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 21:55:27
More detailed pics hopefully

The pic of the part in my hand shows that baring race surface is included in the part removed.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/09d765d2.jpg)
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/31d4218b.jpg)
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/76a4fde1.jpg)
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/4ad67831.jpg)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 21:56:10
Chris as Mdtm said the outer races that you chopping away at are all one piece so you need to cut more :D :y
break off you ;D ;)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 23 May 2012, 21:57:14
Chris as Mdtm said the outer races that you chopping away at are all one piece so you need to cut more :D :y
break off you ;D ;)

 ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 23 May 2012, 21:59:40
I'm just thinking,I replaced a wheel hub on my Discovery last week of the same type as the omega,i might chop that up to see whats inside tomorrow :y
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 23 May 2012, 22:01:44
What soft clean hands you have ........  ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/76a4fde1.jpg)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 22:06:38
And how wrong you ALL are!  ;D
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 23 May 2012, 22:17:16
And how wrong you ALL are!  ;D

From the bit you are holding in that clean hand :D you may well be right although Markdtm said he had pressed one out ???
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: andyc on 23 May 2012, 22:19:04
Chris you could alway contact FAG press office, if anyone knows they will.

Typing FAG into Google is a bit iffy so i've saved you the hassel

http://www.fag.com/content.fag.de/en/index.jsp

Cheers
Andy

Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 22:33:13
Only thing at the back of my mind is, that this is a conti tech after market quality baring.
Oe or fag or other oe quality baring "might" be a different construction in some way. In fact I would hope theres something more to the construction of oe to justify the extra cost.
But I still say that the leverage forces put through the car by hard cornering would be way more than enough to overcome any pressing in forces used. But we will see tomorrow, I have an old oe factory fit here just removed, but I'm not sparking up the angle grinder at this time of night. ;D
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: andyc on 23 May 2012, 22:41:11
and if the bearing was pressed in then it should have something to stop it coming out again in use. 
On the FWD Cavalier they have a big single bearing that you have to press in and that is held in by two ruddy great circlips.

Think i'm with you on this one chris but i stand to be corrected

Andy
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 23 May 2012, 22:42:52
and if the bearing was pressed in then it should have something to stop it coming out again in use. 
On the FWD Cavalier they have a big single bearing that you have to press in and that is held in by two ruddy great circlips.

Think i'm with you on this one chris but i stand to be corrected

Andy

yet a focus front bearing is pressed into a shoulder but no other means to secure it ???
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 22:52:29
and if the bearing was pressed in then it should have something to stop it coming out again in use. 
On the FWD Cavalier they have a big single bearing that you have to press in and that is held in by two ruddy great circlips.

Think i'm with you on this one chris but i stand to be corrected

Andy

yet a focus front bearing is pressed into a shoulder but no other means to secure it ???

No! It isn't. It will be part of the hub. ;D

Seriously though...I'm not about to tell you anything I havent seen for meself. :)
So I'll take your word for it, but with a pinch of salt if i may until experience proves the point. These rumours seem to start with assumptions. Like the Carlton bush myth, like the immovable subframe myth, like all front pads are the same myth, like ... A couple of others I cant remember but could two minutes ago :-[ ;D

But let's see what the oe ortopsy brings tomorrow. I might prove AndyP right yet. ;)

Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 23 May 2012, 22:53:15
Oh yeah, copper slip cures brake squeal, another myth busted with help from TB. ;)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 23 May 2012, 23:07:17
and if the bearing was pressed in then it should have something to stop it coming out again in use. 
On the FWD Cavalier they have a big single bearing that you have to press in and that is held in by two ruddy great circlips.

Think i'm with you on this one chris but i stand to be corrected

Andy

yet a focus front bearing is pressed into a shoulder but no other means to secure it ???

No! It isn't. It will be part of the hub. ;D

Seriously though...I'm not about to tell you anything I havent seen for meself. :)
So I'll take your word for it, but with a pinch of salt if i may until experience proves the point. These rumours seem to start with assumptions. Like the Carlton bush myth, like the immovable subframe myth, like all front pads are the same myth, like ... A couple of others I cant remember but could two minutes ago :-[ ;D

But let's see what the oe ortopsy brings tomorrow. I might prove AndyP right yet. ;)

Re the focus,couldn't believe it myself until I changed one recently,most of the block bearings do indeed have circlips either side of the bearing
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Jimbob on 24 May 2012, 08:30:48
http://173.201.23.239/vauxhall.php?partnumber=90510542&manufacturerinfo=true

Lol, I will have to login to channel21, the description I had was 'Front; Saloon; Wheel Bearing Kit; Ø 74mm'

I reported that fault to VX about a year ago ;D
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 24 May 2012, 14:55:00
Very shocked, no wonder they fail.

The one I had off TB's was certainly a seperate insert, I wonder if they changed them at the facelift model (the facelift ones certainly dont appear as robust as the older models).

I shall have to get one and do a few tests on it.
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 24 May 2012, 15:01:47
Is there a different part number for model years...?

Structural chassis stuff the same across the range I thought...?





Anyway...
WRONG!WRONG!WRONG!WRONG!WRONG!WRONG!WRONG!WRONG!WRONG!WRONG!WRONG!WRONG!WRONG!WRONG!WRONG!WRONG!
  ;D  ;)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 24 May 2012, 15:03:50
But more seriously, I'll measure the two centre race total length and compare with same on the oe baring. Expect to see the conti to be fractionally longer. I guess. :-\
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 24 May 2012, 15:08:22
And to add, this particular baring was failed from new. Even with major over tightening we could never get all the play out.
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 24 May 2012, 15:49:34
..... Expect to see the conti to be fractionally longer. I guess. :-\

Or the two seats that you tried to remove  :-X :-X  ::) are that bit closer together.  :y :y :y
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 24 May 2012, 15:53:10
..... Expect to see the conti to be fractionally longer. I guess. :-\

Or the two seats that you tried to remove  :-X :-X  ::) are that bit closer together.  :y :y :y
oh the two races you said where removable, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, but are part of the hub as I said all along. ;D

Yes it could be a machining issue. Not sure how to measure that though. :-\
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 24 May 2012, 15:57:32
...oh the two races you said where removable, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, but are part of the hub as I said all along. ;D

Yes those two races ....  ;D ;D ;D It certainly looked like that from where we were all standing. It must've been your photos .........  ::) ;D ;D



Yes it could be a machining issue. Not sure how to measure that though. :-\
Me neither  :-\ You'd need a ball bearing perhaps in each side & measure ball to ball (ooer  ::)) & then take off the dia of both ball bearings from your measurement.  :-\
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 24 May 2012, 15:58:49
And to add, this particular baring was failed from new. Even with major over tightening we could never get all the play out.

The bearing play is set by the two centre races, to reduce play you could surface grind the inner face of the races.

Tightening will only do so much as once these faces are hard against each other then thats it (hence why overtightening wont hurt the bearings in this case but may risk the stub).

At Newent last year I sanded one of the faces on a bearing (on a flat surface with wet and dry) of a members car and it did help but would ahev taken a lot of work to get it right.
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 24 May 2012, 16:02:06
....
The bearing play is set by the two centre races,  ......

and the ability of the machinist/CNC lathe to get the outer races the correct distance apart.  ;)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Kevin Wood on 24 May 2012, 16:05:44
....
The bearing play is set by the two centre races,  ......

and the ability of the machinist/CNC lathe to get the outer inner races the correct distance apart.  ;)

Fixed that for you. ;)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: Andy B on 24 May 2012, 16:16:35
.....
Fixed that for you. ;)

 ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 24 May 2012, 17:02:22
Ok, oe bearing disected.

Same! Can't see any difference in measurements either.

Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: henryd on 24 May 2012, 17:53:01
Ok, oe bearing disected.

Same! Can't see any difference in measurements either.

Kin ell,sorry for doubting you Chris  :-[ :-[ but thats a really odd (and shite!)setup
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 24 May 2012, 18:04:09
Ok, oe bearing disected.

Same! Can't see any difference in measurements either.

Kin ell,sorry for doubting you Chris  :-[ :-[ but thats a really odd (and shite!)setup

There does appear to more bluing on the oe. So maybe it's the hardening process that costs the money. But I'd prefer a hub race as part of the hub compared to a pressed in effort for reasons mentioned earlier.

So to sum up, the baring is not pressed in to the hub. The baring IS the hub! They are one and the same.


Pleased with my FAG ones though. No knocks or rattles. No play. ...so far. ;)
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: TheBoy on 24 May 2012, 21:27:46
I was going to say maybe the OE and the Cont ones are very different, based on MDTM's findings with what came off the MV6 a while ago. But chrisgixer say OE is same.  Sometimes its really hard to tell from the photos, not the same as having it in your hand.

Unless there is an age variance....
Title: Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
Post by: feeutfo on 24 May 2012, 22:13:39
Here's the KOYO marked oe one.

Considerably more bluing as you can see. That lip that TB marked in blue earlier is the ledge the seal sits on. Any baring purchased would have to have the seal pressed onto on the stub axle race, and a seal pressed into the hub. By nature, given that lip. The seal would have to be seperate to the baring shell in the hub. If one existed which it clearly doesn't. ...oh sigh.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/232d3604.jpg)