Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Entwood on 07 April 2008, 19:40:23
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Hi
As most of you know by now I'm researching the LPG conversion - and probably boring you all to bits ... :(
Latest question... regards mapping...
In a conversation today with a possible contender ... he said the BRC system did NOT require ANY mapping as the LPG ECU took its signals directly from the petrol injector ECU and so used the "normal" signals as required ... if the petrol ECU decides the system nedes more fuel, the gas ECU provides it, the only additional thing done is to actually turn off the petrol injectors when they are not required.
This makes the BRC system simpler and more reliable as it never requires fiddly re-mapping.
Does that make any sense ?? and is it true ???
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I was always under the impression that LPG settings were always richer than those of petrol, as a result the injectors had to be open for longer.
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I wouldn't say it's 100% true. If you sized the LPG injector nozzles exactly you could make them work on the same pulse width as the petrol injectors. However, my experience with the couple I've done is that the LPG injectors need different correction at different levels of engine load.
There is also only a limited amount of adjustment the main ECU will do based on the lambda sensor output before it decides something is wrong and puts the EML on.
Another issue is that if the ECU winds on a load of long term fuel trim when on gas, it'll run like a dog for a while when you switch back to petrol, until the fuel trim reverts to normal.
In summary, they need some tweaking IME. However, yesterday we had Marie's running perfectly after about 8 or 9 miles on the road with yours truly fiddling with the laptop on the passenger seat.
Kevin
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Thanks KW .. so he's telling porkies .. another one off the list ... :)
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Thanks KW .. so he's telling porkies .. another one off the list ... :)
He may do the fiddling but not count it
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Hi
As most of you know by now I'm researching the LPG conversion - and probably boring you all to bits ... :(
Latest question... regards mapping...
In a conversation today with a possible contender ... he said the BRC system did NOT require ANY mapping as the LPG ECU took its signals directly from the petrol injector ECU and so used the "normal" signals as required ... if the petrol ECU decides the system nedes more fuel, the gas ECU provides it, the only additional thing done is to actually turn off the petrol injectors when they are not required.
This makes the BRC system simpler and more reliable as it never requires fiddly re-mapping.
Does that make any sense ?? and is it true ???
AFAIK the LPG ECU needs to apply fiddle factors at different loads and engine speeds due to the different way gas injectors work, and the different burning properties of propane
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Thanks Martin, confims that guy is off the list .. his "selling point" was "never need to remap, no need for checks, 100 % adjustment free etc etc" ....
Flying bacon ???
Looks like I'll be going for the BRC system done by the guys near Winchester .. £1850 + VAT :(
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Hi
As most of you know by now I'm researching the LPG conversion - and probably boring you all to bits ... :(
Latest question... regards mapping...
In a conversation today with a possible contender ... he said the BRC system did NOT require ANY mapping as the LPG ECU took its signals directly from the petrol injector ECU and so used the "normal" signals as required ... if the petrol ECU decides the system nedes more fuel, the gas ECU provides it, the only additional thing done is to actually turn off the petrol injectors when they are not required.
This makes the BRC system simpler and more reliable as it never requires fiddly re-mapping.
Does that make any sense ?? and is it true ???
Come now, you know the only TRUE condendor is the wonder full Mr Kevin Wood! or JayW! ;)
I would honestly, bribe a few people here, who know how to LPG the V6, and to do it RIGHT, bribe them with either some notes, beer, women, or all of the above to get the job done right.
Poor Danny here had a tough experiance, and i would hate to see the same thing happen again.
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Thanks Martin, confims that guy is off the list .. his "selling point" was "never need to remap, no need for checks, 100 % adjustment free etc etc" ....
Flying bacon ???
Looks like I'll be going for the BRC system done by the guys near Winchester .. £1850 + VAT :(
If you're coming up this way it might be worth talking to these guys : http://www.amsautogas.com.
He's only a couple of miles up the road from me and James and I have popped in there for bits and pieces before. He gave us a load of advice and seemed knowledgeable and the type who would do things properly or not at all. You could have a bed for the night here while he's doing it too.
Have you thought about DIY?
Kevin
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Hi
As most of you know by now I'm researching the LPG conversion - and probably boring you all to bits ... :(
Latest question... regards mapping...
In a conversation today with a possible contender ... he said the BRC system did NOT require ANY mapping as the LPG ECU took its signals directly from the petrol injector ECU and so used the "normal" signals as required ... if the petrol ECU decides the system nedes more fuel, the gas ECU provides it, the only additional thing done is to actually turn off the petrol injectors when they are not required.
This makes the BRC system simpler and more reliable as it never requires fiddly re-mapping.
Does that make any sense ?? and is it true ???
Come now, you know the only TRUE condendor is the wonder full Mr Kevin Wood! or JayW! ;)
I would honestly, bribe a few people here, who know how to LPG the V6, and to do it RIGHT, bribe them with either some notes, beer, women, or all of the above to get the job done right.
Poor Danny here had a tough experiance, and i would hate to see the same thing happen again.
A few little points to make here :)
1. I just don't think its right to burden folks with major work that I'm too incompetent to even help with, and I have no facilities to offer. I know KW, James and Marie have just done one in "nearly" a weekend .. but I can't expect folks to run around after me... and I would not be rude enough to expect any warranty .. lets face it .. the guys would be doing me a big enough favour in the first place !!
2. As my intention is to keep the car for about 10 years (if I can), my research, so far, indicates that the BRC system appears to be the present "top-of-the-range" and has the least problems - long term.
3. The BRC system is not available for DIY but will come with a 2 year warranty.
Those are my present thoughts ... always willing to listen to counter arguments ... this is a major learning process for me .... :)
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KW .. those are the guys who top the list at the moment ... I've spoken to "Patrick" and he seems to know what he's on about ..... he reckons a week to do the job, but provides a courtesy car, a 1000 mile check, "flashlube" included...
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I`m watching this and other LPG posts with growing interest in the 'possibilites'.
I have a large stored-source of cheap(ish) Liquid Propane in my garden; from the 1000 ltr. central heating fuel-tank!.
I pay significantly less than the petrol station prices for bulk LPG delivery, but wonder what pressure the car system`s LPG tanks accept for refueling: anyone know?
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Debs .. you lucky sod !!!
You buy a simple "liquid transfer pump" which allows you to fill your car from the bulk installation !!
If you don't have LPG yet .. get it soon you can save a fortune !! You just don't tell anyone you have the pump ... :(
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A few little points to make here :)
1. I just don't think its right to burden folks with major work that I'm too incompetent to even help with, and I have no facilities to offer. I know KW, James and Marie have just done one in "nearly" a weekend .. but I can't expect folks to run around after me... and I would not be rude enough to expect any warranty .. lets face it .. the guys would be doing me a big enough favour in the first place !!
2. As my intention is to keep the car for about 10 years (if I can), my research, so far, indicates that the BRC system appears to be the present "top-of-the-range" and has the least problems - long term.
3. The BRC system is not available for DIY but will come with a 2 year warranty.
Those are my present thoughts ... always willing to listen to counter arguments ... this is a major learning process for me .... :)
i didnt have any experiance with lpg. i followed james and kevs lead. There are things that you could do like run the fuel and power lines under the car. dependent on the tank drill the holes in the boot secure the tank and fit the filler and make tea!
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KW .. those are the guys who top the list at the moment ... I've spoken to "Patrick" and he seems to know what he's on about ..... he reckons a week to do the job, but provides a courtesy car, a 1000 mile check, "flashlube" included...
Patrick's the chap we spoke to. Only had a chat with him as I said but he seemed competent and was happy to advise us despite the fact we only bought a couple of bits and pieces.
Whilst I would be happy to help, this weekend has shown it requires 3 people who are confident with working on cars to get close to doing one in a weekend and even then we were in the garage all waking hours and I felt a little sorry for Mrs. KW because the only time she saw us all weekend was to bring us food to eat on the job, bless her.
James being out of circulation when he would probably have been happy to come and help in return for a contribution to his "guzzler petrol fund" is also an issue.
I also feel a little uneasy about doing a conversion "for" someone rather than "helping" them if that makes sense? There's some fairly major surgery involved and I'd prefer to share the responsibility. :-/
Anyway, if you do come down this way you'll have to pop in. As I say, he's only a couple of miles up the road. I'd also be very interested in having a look over the result.
Kevin
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I`m watching this and other LPG posts with growing interest in the 'possibilites'.
I have a large stored-source of cheap(ish) Liquid Propane in my garden; from the 1000 ltr. central heating fuel-tank!.
I pay significantly less than the petrol station prices for bulk LPG delivery, but wonder what pressure the car system`s LPG tanks accept for refueling: anyone know?
Go for it. Storage pressure is determined by the vapour pressure of the gas, so it will be the same. You just need a transfer pump, and to make sure that there is an outlet for liquid from the botom of your tank. A central heating system will probably be fed from vapour from the top of the tank.
Do a search for "transfer pump" on ebay. :y
Oh, and unlike heating oil, red diesel, etc. there is no way to trace LPG.
We have a setup at the gliding club for filling our winches, which run on LPG. It's a large bulk tank exactly like a central heating tank with an electric pump feeding a fairly standard filling nozzle. Connect it up, switch on the pump until the tank's full.
Kevin
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I`m watching this and other LPG posts with growing interest in the 'possibilites'.
I have a large stored-source of cheap(ish) Liquid Propane in my garden; from the 1000 ltr. central heating fuel-tank!.
I pay significantly less than the petrol station prices for bulk LPG delivery, but wonder what pressure the car system`s LPG tanks accept for refueling: anyone know?
Go for it. Storage pressure is determined by the vapour pressure of the gas, so it will be the same. You just need a transfer pump, and to make sure that there is an outlet for liquid from the botom of your tank. A central heating system will probably be fed from vapour from the top of the tank.
Do a search for "transfer pump" on ebay. :y
Oh, and unlike heating oil, red diesel, etc. there is no way to trace LPG.
We have a setup at the gliding club for filling our winches, which run on LPG. It's a large bulk tank exactly like a central heating tank with an electric pump feeding a fairly standard filling nozzle. Connect it up, switch on the pump until the tank's full.
Kevin
So kevin when are we converting yours. :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ i dont mind helping you. rolling around under the car dont bother me. ;D ;D ;D
i would like to return the help at some point :)
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KW .. those are the guys who top the list at the moment ... I've spoken to "Patrick" and he seems to know what he's on about ..... he reckons a week to do the job, but provides a courtesy car, a 1000 mile check, "flashlube" included...
Patrick's the chap we spoke to. Only had a chat with him as I said but he seemed competent and was happy to advise us despite the fact we only bought a couple of bits and pieces.
Whilst I would be happy to help, this weekend has shown it requires 3 people who are confident with working on cars to get close to doing one in a weekend and even then we were in the garage all waking hours and I felt a little sorry for Mrs. KW because the only time she saw us all weekend was to bring us food to eat on the job, bless her.
James being out of circulation when he would probably have been happy to come and help in return for a contribution to his "guzzler petrol fund" is also an issue.
I also feel a little uneasy about doing a conversion "for" someone rather than "helping" them if that makes sense? There's some fairly major surgery involved and I'd prefer to share the responsibility. :-/
Anyway, if you do come down this way you'll have to pop in. As I say, he's only a couple of miles up the road. I'd also be very interested in having a look over the result.
Kevin
These points are all in line with my thinking. I have just invested quite a large amount in buying this car, and if you price the "commercial" fit versus the "DIY fit" as well as the car cost, then spread that over even 5 years (ok I'd like 10 but lets be sensible/cautious/realistic) then the difference is very small in either monthly cost or cost-per-mile.
I could get a £1200 1 day job done in cardiff - but I don't trust that quote at all - If the job is being done it is being done properly - so its a decent garage or the OOF-ers
I'm in the fortunate position of being able to afford to do this, and I'd rather not risk the goodwill/friendship of folks on the forum if something were to go wrong, so the decent garage option is winning.
I am happy ( :) ) to steal your thoughts and advice, but I won't steal your time and effort ....
I'd love to drop in for a coffee if/when we eventually get the job done.
It's good to know you rate "Patrick" as it instantly moves him even further ahead of the others ...
I take Maries points as well, but she is obviously far more capable than I, and can do the little jobs to finish her install off, even those are probably beyond my knowledge, unless there is a "how to" with photo's !!
Does any of that make sense ??
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Hi
As most of you know by now I'm researching the LPG conversion - and probably boring you all to bits ... :(
Latest question... regards mapping...
In a conversation today with a possible contender ... he said the BRC system did NOT require ANY mapping as the LPG ECU took its signals directly from the petrol injector ECU and so used the "normal" signals as required ... if the petrol ECU decides the system nedes more fuel, the gas ECU provides it, the only additional thing done is to actually turn off the petrol injectors when they are not required.
This makes the BRC system simpler and more reliable as it never requires fiddly re-mapping.
Does that make any sense ?? and is it true ???
Come now, you know the only TRUE condendor is the wonder full Mr Kevin Wood! or JayW! ;)
I would honestly, bribe a few people here, who know how to LPG the V6, and to do it RIGHT, bribe them with either some notes, beer, women, or all of the above to get the job done right.
Poor Danny here had a tough experiance, and i would hate to see the same thing happen again.
A few little points to make here :)
1. I just don't think its right to burden folks with major work that I'm too incompetent to even help with, and I have no facilities to offer. I know KW, James and Marie have just done one in "nearly" a weekend .. but I can't expect folks to run around after me... and I would not be rude enough to expect any warranty .. lets face it .. the guys would be doing me a big enough favour in the first place !!
2. As my intention is to keep the car for about 10 years (if I can), my research, so far, indicates that the BRC system appears to be the present "top-of-the-range" and has the least problems - long term.
3. The BRC system is not available for DIY but will come with a 2 year warranty.
Those are my present thoughts ... always willing to listen to counter arguments ... this is a major learning process for me .... :)
I can understand your thinking...
However, you could buy the best kit in the known Universe, BUT, if its fitted by a Monkey, it will be the crappest system!
The kit is only as good as the person who fits it.
I have taken JamesV6's old 2.5 V6 LPG for a spin, now that run amazingly well on gas! Thats the £450 eBay jobbie. JayW has seen good stuff with it too.
I own a 2.2 and do about 400 miles a month, so for me LPG would take an age to re-coup the costs, however if i did need to LPG, i would be getting that eBay kit and asking for some big favours from people here.
I also know sod all about LPG, but i can pitch in, and learn, often just more hands help.
I would seriously consider an DIY LPG job..... why not do it at the Lakes meet, plenty of experts around! :)
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..... why not do it at the Lakes meet, plenty of experts around! :)
I'm sure KW and Marie might have views on THAT statement !!!
:)
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Debs,
Be very careful that you don't advertise the idea of filling from home otherwise HMRC will be knocking on the door for the unpaid duty!! It is perfectly legal to use a home bulk installation but you must pay the duty. ;) ;) ;) ;) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
As for DIY installation... That's definately the way I intend to go but I'll be asking someone from here to fit nozzles to a "spare" manifold for me as that is really the only bit I'm not 100% confident with!
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..... why not do it at the Lakes meet, plenty of experts around! :)
I'm sure KW and Marie might have views on THAT statement !!!
:)
Might be a bit too much beer flowing there ;D
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..... why not do it at the Lakes meet, plenty of experts around! :)
I'm sure KW and Marie might have views on THAT statement !!!
:)
Lakes meet would not be a good idea as you would be working flat out to get it done and thats if you had the faclitys.
i was very lucky that Kevins garage is a small gold mine and anything we had overlooked was quickly sorted.
Yes its is a massive favour to ask and a favor that you can return at some point.
i knew nothing about LPG ether but god i have learnt so much and Kevin was a god send as he took the lead with the electrics which made me happy cos i really didnt want that job even though i could have completed it but it would have taken twice as long. ;D
we all bounced of each other to over come the problems we occured and making decisions when required.
like the tank securing fitting. Top tip the spare wheel tank has holes in specific places for a reason! i made a bad decision which cost us a good 2 hours to fix.
Each of us having our own veiws but going with the best idea/solution!
if you are in the position to have a professional fit then go for it but as you are doing make sure you do your home work.
Go and see the work they have done before. and see if you can get to speak to past customers to see what they thought. i the garage value their work they will point you in the right direction.
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Thanks Martin, confims that guy is off the list .. his "selling point" was "never need to remap, no need for checks, 100 % adjustment free etc etc" ....
Flying bacon ???
Looks like I'll be going for the BRC system done by the guys near Winchester .. £1850 + VAT :(
It may have just been the way he described it
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Hi
As most of you know by now I'm researching the LPG conversion - and probably boring you all to bits ... :(
Latest question... regards mapping...
In a conversation today with a possible contender ... he said the BRC system did NOT require ANY mapping as the LPG ECU took its signals directly from the petrol injector ECU and so used the "normal" signals as required ... if the petrol ECU decides the system nedes more fuel, the gas ECU provides it, the only additional thing done is to actually turn off the petrol injectors when they are not required.
This makes the BRC system simpler and more reliable as it never requires fiddly re-mapping.
Does that make any sense ?? and is it true ???
Come now, you know the only TRUE condendor is the wonder full Mr Kevin Wood! or JayW! ;)
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>:( >:( >:( >:(
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Gold mine = Full of junk and sh!te ;D
The lakes meet is for socialising and a little tinkering. Despite having spent practically the whole weekend in a garage it felt like we didn't do any socialising by the time we'd finished. And it's just NOT the type of job you can do in a grassy field.
Kevin
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I`m watching this and other LPG posts with growing interest in the 'possibilites'.
I have a large stored-source of cheap(ish) Liquid Propane in my garden; from the 1000 ltr. central heating fuel-tank!.
I pay significantly less than the petrol station prices for bulk LPG delivery, but wonder what pressure the car system`s LPG tanks accept for refueling: anyone know?
Dream position - do it
Pressure is actually quite low - what you require is a transfer pump to pump propane from the tank into the car.
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ive fitted two of these systems,i fitted a omvl to "bumblebee"(works great) and also a u-fit lpg system as fitted to maries omega to a v8 sts caddy and that works bl++dy great.i would recommend u-fit lpg kit anytime
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>:( >:( >:( >:(
You forgot the man who started us all off. >:(
Kevin
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Gold mine = Full of junk and sh!te ;D
The lakes meet is for socialising and a little tinkering. Despite having spent practically the whole weekend in a garage it felt like we didn't do any socialising by the time we'd finished. And it's just NOT the type of job you can do in a grassy field.
Kevin
That was my fault :'( :'( sorry
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Given all the information I have collected over the past few weeks, the valuable comments made tonight, and the important fact that he is rated highly by KW, methinks I'll be phoning Patrick tomorrow - got a couple more questions for him - but he's looking favourite right now... :)
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ive fitted two of these systems,i fitted a omvl to "bumblebee"(works great) and also a u-fit lpg system as fitted to maries omega to a v8 sts caddy and that works bl++dy great.i would recommend u-fit lpg kit anytime
i agree i cant tell the difference between petrol or gas buy the price and which tank is emptying.
we had to pull over and listen hard to figure out whether we were on gas or petrol.
the u-fig guys have said to me that they will do a fitting report for the insruance too. which is great. for the certificate he said i might have to part with a few more pennies.
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ive fitted two of these systems,i fitted a omvl to "bumblebee"(works great) and also a u-fit lpg system as fitted to maries omega to a v8 sts caddy and that works bl++dy great.i would recommend u-fit lpg kit anytime
OMVL - I hope you have a filter as those injectors aren't the most reliable
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two filters in fact!!
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two filters in fact!!
Better safe than sorry!
Those blocks are not cheap - but I have been told get new ones from Poland - they are cheaper.
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not wishing to hijack your thread but how did your ac problems go?
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not wishing to hijack your thread but how did your ac problems go?
Badly ... :( Not got the car back yet ... seems they had major problems changing the "expansion valve" and the flush has taken longer than anticipated. The guy said the compressor, when removed, they poured a mixture of gunge and metal bits out. Supposed to be finished tomorrow.
I feel a rather large bill approaching at fairly high speed... :(
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all the more reason to diy your lpg and level the wallet a bit
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all the more reason to diy your lpg and level the wallet a bit
Totally accepted, however it does not change any of the arguments above... I just wish it did .. :(
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Gold mine = Full of junk and sh!te ;D
The lakes meet is for socialising and a little tinkering. Despite having spent practically the whole weekend in a garage it felt like we didn't do any socialising by the time we'd finished. And it's just NOT the type of job you can do in a grassy field.
Kevin
That was my fault :'( :'( sorry
Not at all. Just full of random nuts, bolts and bits of metal that would "come in handy" sometime. And they did. :)
the u-fig guys have said to me that they will do a fitting report for the insruance too. which is great. for the certificate he said i might have to part with a few more pennies.
Which insurance company are you with? And did they ask for a certificate?
Kevin
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Given all the information I have collected over the past few weeks, the valuable comments made tonight, and the important fact that he is rated highly by KW, methinks I'll be phoning Patrick tomorrow - got a couple more questions for him - but he's looking favourite right now... :)
I should stress that James and I only popped in there and had a chat with him so not enough to form an accurate opinion, but he was talking sense. No bull about drilling manifolds on the engine and the like. He did say he normally tries to persuade people not to DIY LPG V6 Omegas and wished us luck. ;D
I'd still want to be seeing some of his work first, personally.
Giving himself a week to do the job will mean that he won't be rushing it. The kit he was fitting looked top notch, and he said for a professional install he wants people not to come back so he uses what he finds to be most reliable!
Kevin
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Gold mine = Full of junk and sh!te ;D
The lakes meet is for socialising and a little tinkering. Despite having spent practically the whole weekend in a garage it felt like we didn't do any socialising by the time we'd finished. And it's just NOT the type of job you can do in a grassy field.
Kevin
That was my fault :'( :'( sorry
Not at all. Just full of random nuts, bolts and bits of metal that would "come in handy" sometime. And they did. :)
the u-fig guys have said to me that they will do a fitting report for the insruance too. which is great. for the certificate he said i might have to part with a few more pennies.
Which insurance company are you with? And did they ask for a certificate?
Kevin
That they did. still cant figure out where James put the bolt for the fuel tank. ;D ;D
the insurance didnt ask for one. but i was just thinkin it might be a good idea just incase .
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That they did. still cant figure out where James put the bolt for the fuel tank. ;D ;D
Found that. It was in his toolbox, which he forgot to take with him. ::)
the insurance didnt ask for one. but i was just thinkin it might be a good idea just incase .
Absolutely. For peace of mind and in case it's required at a later date.
Another thing occurred to me, BTW. When we were mapping the LPG the vapour pressure was a little lower than I expected. It was down at 0.8-0.9 Bar and I had a feeling that kit was supposed to run at 1 Bar. Might be worth asking Jeremy if that's Ok of if it needs adjusting.
Kevin
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Just got of the phone to jeremy. your right it should be 1.1 bar, i have to remove the red label of the tank value and turn it inwards 1/4 of a turn while its pluged in to the computer.
As or the amount of gas that went in the tank hes said to fill her a couple of times and let the system settle and if i am still short on fillin to take the car to him and he will sort the tank value for me as you have to take it back off in a special way after it has been filled with gas due to the pressure. if i try and do i and get it wrong i could seriously hurt myself. :(
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Hi Marie,
OK. It will probably need to have the map tweaked when the pressure has been adjusted. The adjustment is under a red cap on the evaporator. I remember seeing it.
The tank will be pressurised now so I guess it needs to be purged of LPG before taking the multivalve off!
Kevin