Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: jtypecav on 22 June 2012, 20:36:17
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Still buzzing from my new acquisition. Still has new car smell, is just under 70k. But it has a crazy problem which is going to do ky head in until I can get it plugged into a scanner.
Car is great for about 15 mins or until hits 70mph+ or 3k+ rpm sustained. s smooth powerful, even throaty until this point.
Stage one. Eml flashes comes on, performance is still unaffected.
Stage two. About 5mins later car starts to feel like its missing. This gradually gets worse until 70mph is an absolute maximum and on idle its a shuddering wreck.
Heres the kicker! Pull over, ignition off, then start her up again and its fine again, go back to before stage one! If kept below 3k or 50mph it doesn't recur either! Felt like coil pack hg and by leads all at once. Is this a known phenomenon? It's ky first fly by wire in a mig but I have a complete y26se at home if spares are read!
Any thoughts?
Regardless, its done 400 miles home and its a lively example! Will take some pics shortly!
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What comes up when you do the pedal trick ? Paperclip Test and Pedal Trick (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90581.0)
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As Andy has suggested, the 'pedal trick' should yield codes that will help you. I would be expecting a 0300 and single or multiple 030x (i.e. 0301, 0304) These relate to a missfire.
I am to be in Bath at some point on Sunday to collect some items, whilst I am no mechanic, I know enough and would be more than happy to look at the vehicle if you're about? Pedal trick will reveal codes, and my code reader can clear them so we can see what returns.
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Almost certainly a misfire. Oil and/or water in the plug wells or just a degraded ignition system.
But check for codes as said. No code reader required for engine codes. Just the pedal trick.
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check exhaust and make sure its not blocked :y
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As chrisgixer said, sounds like a misfire. Very likely a 0300. A scan tool might tell you if it is a specific cylinder that is misfiring.
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Pedal trick will give cylinder specific info.
0301 = cylinder1
0306 = cylinder6
etc
But ultimately it's which bank you want to know. Diag of cylinder lay out is printed on the cam cover by cylinder 1, which is nearest the air box.
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Thanks for the offer of help with the new purchase everyone!
Great to know other owners happy to help out too (I'll keep you posted Josh, than you for your kind offer!)
Pedal trick is a fantastic temporary out in the field whilst no laptop is available!
I'm getting 300 and 305 so that tallies with the help above, and I know which cylinder now too. Although would one yl being out reduce the cars ability to maintain 60mph that much?
I definitely doubt it is oil build up as I literally can not state this enough:
If you go over 3k sustained doing 50mph the light comes on and it gets worse in two stages. Clutch in, off and on and you have bang loads of power again until you breach those precise conditions. Accelerate hard from standing through the entire rev range (but below motorway speed) and you don't get it either, so it's not load. If you off and on again oily plugs would still be oily and fluids still leaky but it's not. Its a fantastic up together wee beastie actually and I'm really happy you guys were on the money on the code front too!
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It does sound very specific.
How old are the plugs and coil pacs, how many miles? Is the history known?
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Only bought it yesterday so still going through the paperwork. She's a beauty though!
I think the issue is definitely ancillary not core engine functionality / mechanics if that makes sense. Engine bay looks very clean too and like it's had what it needs when it needs, but I'm assuming it could be due a coil pack or leads. Are there known issues with the management / ecu on the SE at all?
69k 3 former keepers, looks like it's had everything it is supposed to have had and most of it is at main dealers at full price too. New car smell makes my day every time I get in the bloody thing. Definitely a full omega convert!
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No leads. 3 gang Coil PAC. See the tip on removing them in the guides section, they are easy to damage otherwise. Pot 5 being the easy side, so your in luck.
Wip the cp out, see what the plugs look like, any carbon scoring on the porcelain, are the plugs tight as they do come loose signified by soot around the base. Check cp for damage, splits, cracks, or split boots. ...IMO. :)
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Blocked exhaust wouldnt give your symptoms imo.It has the effect of holding back throughout the rev range. Feels like a big hand has grabbed the rear bumper and is trying to stop the car from moving forwards.No misfire etc.
As said,sounds very much like HT trouble.Probably find evidence of oil or water in plug wells and.or rust damage to coil packs.
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re. leads, of course - too used to my X30s.
Will take a look at the coil pack following the guides when I'm home on Monday and have some tools. I have another Y26SE in m
y old vectra I can swap some bits out on quickly to diagnose too. Will get a pic on the gallery!
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Right! Changed both coil packs out today, and the plugs (had evidence of the water from skuttle ingress I've heard of) but there was no change.
Pedal test was only telling 1/3 of the problem.
Turns out, boot it to 4k once you loose cyl 4 & 6, repeat the "test" without clearing and you loose cyl5. even with new packs.
Changed out crank and cam for known good, no change at all either.
So tapped into ecu for traction control and get a couple unknown errors (one I looked up as torque control error undefined..) Cleared them, and they didn't come back although the problem persisted.
Basically it's coming down to traction control or abs or something. It is machine limited, it's precise and still clearable via ign. off and on again. Feels just like a non-fly by wire sl;apping your hands for using too much throttle and loosing traction. Except once it has, it forgets to let go!
Only thing that has me doubting this theory is that I'd have thought the FBW V6's would have used throttle not killing injectors off (which this problem is!)
Realising that the "2stages to this problem" for feel alone is corroberated against this as first bank goes then the second bank and only ever these cyls. It is so strange, but that legacy code of torque control is lingering in my mind!
Any thoughts?!
*Edit!* Changed the heater valve at the back of the top of the lump too as the diaphragm had perished and it was where I was loosing my coolant from!
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It's a miss fire. The fact ignition off resets the fault proves it IMO. Or at least as much it can from the wrong end of a keyboard.
Once the ecu sees a misfire for long enough according to a set parameter it will shut that cylinder down completely. No fuel, no spark. Re start the car and the cylinder is live again, until the fault repeats.
Injector faults give cylinder specific codes too.
tc is so crude on these I very much doubt it's that.
What engine codes are you seeing?
What about plugs?
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New packs, new plugs, checked connections best I could for connectivity.
Only codes are 300, 305 on pedal. 304, 6, 5 repeatedly on solus regardless of the above.
What's bizarre is that it runs the opposite way to an HT fault.
HT usually has issues down low where a miss starts and gets at least a little easier at higher RPM as the engine picks up.
This is RPM specific, but only when rolling. On idle, there is nothing, no miss all live data is within sensible ranges. All data graphs are smooth when left too. :-\
The reason I'm thinking ABS / Traction isn't just because of the errors on the read of it, but that it cuts in at the sort of rebs (and sort of surface) that TC would.
Load it up ridiculously heavily wrong gear, steep hill etc.. and keep it below 4k and it pulls like a train. Lay off or change down and kit 4k it decides 2 cyls on bank 1 should be shut down, then get rpm to 4k again and it will shut down 5. (and I mean 4000 RPM exactly. Not 200 more, not 200 less! << smacks of electronic fault?)
I repeated this test with different combinations of components all day. Every time it is 4, 6, then if you do it again without clearing it will do 5. If you do clear after 4 and 6 it will do 4 then 6 again. There is NO variation in this, it is TOO regular to be a miss and is not dependent on critical amounts of load like HT. :-\ :-\
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Tech 2 session might be your best bet ? :-\
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Hmmn yeah proper diagnosis session required! Don't really want to start taking more from the Gold mig on a hunch! Coilpacks and sensors from my spare Y26se have come in handy!
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Yes i see your point now, sorry. :-[
Will it drive to Brackley? Near Silverstone? See if TheBoy can get his tech2 on it.
He's on holiday now I believe, but due back soon.
Or Kevin Wood in Alton? Both very competent with tech2 diags.
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I'd love to get my head around it but it's getting beyond me / soon so fantastic to hear such expertise is available here! Love learning too though!
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I've had a quick look, but am on my phone in the dark! Anyone have a wiring diagram containing the injector setup? If I can work out the multiplug I can check they are getting voltage when it's missing I guess. Noticed a TPS error - swapped the throttle body and the fly by wire sender for the pedal - was clutching at strings!
Could the crank sensor (changed cam) be causing something like this in a bizarre way?
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Saw this on another forum..
"On my way to work, as soon as the car hit 4k revs in 5th, so roughly 70mph, the car wouldn't stall but the engine light would flash and the engine would seem to pull back, so the car would slow down and it would be nigh on impossible for me to accelerate.
The only way to make a temporary solution to this would be to turn the engine off and back on, and I'd be able to accelerate as normal and continue without a problem as long as I stuck to about 60mph. I took the car to the garage and the diagnostic kit said that the car was misfiring, though it wasn't. Only when I hit 4k revs and the power would reduce, after which it would be very hesitant whilst accelerating.
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And this:
"10-06-09, 01:04 AM
hi mate i had a problem with my v6 gsi sounds very similar to the one your having. my car was running fine up until 4k revs and as soon as it got to around those revs it would act as if i was taking my foot on and off the throttle. my problem was my crank sensor. my ecu light didnt come on once. if you are going to change it put a genuine vauxhall one in it because motor factor copies arent very good."
Anyone give me a last shred of hope here?! ;)
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Does the engine actually exceed 4K rpm Andy
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Hi Rob,
On idle stationary (or coasting) it will fly round to the red with no hesitation.
Moving is a different kettle of fish. I've not tried persistently to breach it, but I'm pretty sure 4k - 4.5k is about it! It I get a sec tonight I'll go round the block to confirm. TBH, it's so rough on limit mode that I thought I was going through the screen when it first cut in! It's crazy when you do it twice (revving round to 4 moving) and it drops to 3 and continues to idle!!
I have spreadsheets of live data of 3 test runs if anyone wants a look?
Run one. ECU Recording - Cleared codes run down the lane until hit 4k and ECU light comes on. Drops 4 & 6.
Run two. ABS +Trac recording (same conditions after re-setting codes as above) Drops 4 & 6
Run three. Didn't clear codes and repeated the same run (60secs or so) now dropped and coded 300, 305 but has codes for clys 4, 6 and 5.
Run four. Cleared everything. Drove back down the lane not exceeding 4k.
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Also.. the TPS reading "invalid" right up to the second the light comes on (but only on full throttle) is still bothering me!!
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Right.
Changed the crank sensor today (it looked original so figured it was worth a shot!). For a fleeting second I thought it had cured it as I launched it up to 4k. Bizzarely it let me do it. Then again. So I went to the shops as I'd been ordered to buy a Lemon (not the omega kind!).
Came out to the car and drove home with a massive grin, only to find it's back to putting the light on all the time every time when in gear above 4k. :'(
Anyone want to see the data from the runs I drove to see if they spot anything?
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Sorry I've just seen this.
Going from the initial symptoms, not the muddled ones after some random part swapping, do you have the facilities to see what the Long Term Fuel Trims are doing on Bank 2. This is in the Engine Management ECU.
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Sorry I've just seen this.
Going from the initial symptoms, not the muddled ones after some random part swapping,
To be honest the symptoms haven't changed throughout, they are pure and undiluted!
(Everything I had was to hand in spares and every part had a justification or a theory behind it. I love learning from this stuff!) Servers and subsequently games development before academe was my bread and butter so I don't get enough excuses to get my hands dirty!
Do you have the facilities to see what the Long Term Fuel Trims are doing on Bank 2. This is in the Engine Management ECU.
What sort of numbers would you expect here? I'll take a look. I'll also upload the data from the run too.
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Sorry I've just seen this.
Going from the initial symptoms, not the muddled ones after some random part swapping,
To be honest the symptoms haven't changed throughout, they are pure and undiluted!
(Everything I had was to hand in spares and every part had a justification or a theory behind it. I love learning from this stuff!) Servers and subsequently games development before academe was my bread and butter so I don't get enough excuses to get my hands dirty!
Do you have the facilities to see what the Long Term Fuel Trims are doing on Bank 2. This is in the Engine Management ECU.
What sort of numbers would you expect here? I'll take a look. I'll also upload the data from the run too.
Random part changing clouds the waters, thus I'm going purely on initial post :)
For Long Term Trims, I'd expect both to be at 0% +-1%, both now, and after a 20min drive. Try different driving styles as well, eg Miss Daisy, and "the chrisgixer method" ;D
The Short Term Trims will be all over the place, ignore them for now.
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Haha! I'm learning names on the forum by driving style! Chrisgixer as opposed to Tunnie then?!
Long and short term are in the data. TB / anyone if you could take a look it'd be awesome.
1st Run From idle to 4K and EML (90 seconds) (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2011453/ECU_Good_to_Bad_Livedata_2001_Omega-B_Engine__Y%2026%20SE_201206261444.xlsx) Cly 4 & 6 injectors seem to shut down
Excuse my colour coding highlighting things changing and when the management light came on.
2nd Run Already missing 4,6 accellerate to 4K and EML (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2011453/Bad_to_Terrible_Livedata_2001_Omega-B_Engine__Y%2026%20SE_201206261450.xlsx) Cly 5 seems to shut down
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Can't work through that crap, Excel is an office self-abuser's tool I have managed not to master.
Besides, your code reader is not legal in the UK ;)
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Long term trims look OK, though. Although I slightly suspicious of some of the readings around the short term trims.
Wonder if the stupid code reader is struggling to gather so much info. Try again, just gathering o2 and trim related data
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OK used a really cheap and nasty sensor to double check. Software didn't support recording - but had a passenger watch it closely!
Generally tracking in line with use of accellerator pedal. From -1.X% up to about 12% near full throttle. When the EML comes on and cyl 4/6 cut out this becomes dead 0 and doesn't vary at all.
Interestingly, with a long enough stretch of road on 3clys it will rev above 4k rather than drop another one. ANy use?
Going to go back to the other sensor and just record out xls of data for fuel trim if required!
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Right.
Something that has been niggling me since the start is corroborated by the TPS load
If you keep it at PARTIAL LOAD it will pull cleanly to the red in motion with no EML!
If you depress the accelerator more the TPS displays INVALID
Not only does it not display "FULL LOAD" like my Ascona does (X30) but if TPS states INVALID, it's only then at 4K that it goes into limp?!
So this issue only occurs when more throttle is in play. (Hence why I'd swapped throttle body AND pedal senders earlier!)
This has got to lock it down a bit more I hope!
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So this issue only occurs when more throttle is in play. (Hence why I'd swapped throttle body AND pedal senders earlier!)
Still the wrong diagnostics method. Are you getting exactly same readings with original sensors?
What is MAF reading at idle, and at 2000 rpm?
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I've never diagnosed something like this before, happy to learn from a boss! :y
Original sensors read pretty much exactly the same - just added up to 5v a bit more and the symptoms prevailed.
On last run 10 mins ago MAF @ idle was:
RPM 646 V 1.37 KG/H 14
In motion at 2K RPM upwards till EML:
RPM V KGH
1.847 2.16 56
1.899 2.1 56
1.941 2.14 55
2.021 2.1 53
2.05 2.12 54
2.11 2.1 54
2.159 2.33 73
2.262 2.61 107
2.436 3 158
2.647 3.31 205
2.924 3.41 256
3.212 3.61 262
3.476 3.73 262
3.765 3.73 262
4.033 3.8 262
4.326 3.92 262
4.52 4.04 262
4.626 4.02 262
4.824 4.08 262
EML ON - RELEASE ACC THEN final reading
4.636 1.96 44
Is the 262 a healthy maximum?
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MAF looks OK, but whats it like at 2k in neutral, on the drive :)
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On idle on drive
2.09 1.82 36
2.057 1.8 34
2.004 1.78 33
1.962 1.73 31
1.945 1.78 33
1.936 1.78 34
1.945 1.82 35
1.995 1.82 36
2.092 1.9 41
2.161 1.88 40
2.202 1.9 39
2.242 1.88 39
2.272 1.88 40
2.296 1.9 39
2.317 1.88 40
2.321 1.92 41
2.334 1.86 38
2.339 1.88 40
2.356 1.88 38
2.356 1.88 39
2.35 1.86 39
2.317 1.84 36
2.263 1.78 34
2.2 1.84 36
2.067 1.69 27
Quick Rev:
2.099 2.22 63
3.427 3.55 262
5.878 3.71 262
6.34 2.18 59
5.741 2.25 65
5.142 2.2 61
4.45 2.14 57
3.803 2.04 52
4.152 3.78 262
6.28 4.2 262
6.267 2.18 59
5.652 2.2 62
5.056 2.1 62
4.367 2.1 55
3.747 1.98 44
3.183 1.9 41
2.634 1.75 32
2.132 1.67 27
1.636 1.53 20
1.282 1.57 25
1.077 1.45 16
907 1.41 14
845 1.71 28
Any use?
The invalid TPS reading bringing on the EML is still bugging me. It's the only event that correlates directly to the limp.
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The invalid TPS reading bringing on the EML is still bugging me. It's the only event that correlates directly to the limp.
With live data (& engine not running) you should be able to gradually open the throttle & watch the TPS reading increase smoothly from 0% to 100%. I think the TPS on a DBW engine has two potentiometers inside it so if one decides to read full throttle when it shouldn't the ECU can decide that it has an invalid TPS reading.
On a DBW engine the TPS has to fail safe so the ECU probably watches the mass flow reading and declare the TPS reading as invalid if the mass flow reading doesn't make sense for the given throttle position. Cheaper for GM to sell you a new TPS (even if it isn't necessary) than fight a class action over cars zooming off at full throttle .
MAF failures are much more common than TPS failures hence the interest in the mass flow.
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This is really interesting. Makes a lot of sense too.
I have an X30XE MAF here. Is it the same? Do those figures look OK? Any other figures of interest?
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Steady; treat the problem like a crime scene, gather the evidence first and work out what caused the problem. If you go changing items at random you risk destroying the evidence you need to fix it.
The DBW MAF has a built in air flow temperature sensor that the cable throttle MAF doesn't have.
Finally: I am just spouting theory, TB has the equipment and the practical experience to use it properly. I would wait for his response. While you are waiting you could search for some threads (from about a year ago) when people posted up their live readings to help in this situation.
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My enthusiasm stems from the fact I'm two weeks into having the car.
It has a (not worth the paper it wasn't written on) 30 day or 1000 mile warranty and if I don't fix it in this time I won't be able to claim back the bits that were wrong with it, or at at least get some compensation for my time as it had thrown the light and lost coolant 20 mins from the dealer. Only reason I didn't take it back there and then was because I realised the leak wasn't the block and had assumed despite they fact they had deleted the codes knowningly that with the help of the forum I was pretty sure we could get to the bottom of it!
Despite sounding to the contrary, I'm fully signed up to following expert advice on here step by step! :y
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My enthusiasm stems from the fact I'm two weeks into having the car.
It has a (not worth the paper it wasn't written on) 30 day or 1000 mile warranty and if I don't fix it in this time I won't be able to claim back the bits that were wrong with it, or at at least get some compensation for my time as it had thrown the light and lost coolant 20 mins from the dealer. Only reason I didn't take it back there and then was because I realised the leak wasn't the block and had assumed despite they fact they had deleted the codes knowningly that with the help of the forum I was pretty sure we could get to the bottom of it!
Despite sounding to the contrary, I'm fully signed up to following expert advice on here step by step! :y
Excellent!
TPS is attached to the throttle pedal pivot & therefore a pig to get to (unless you like lying on your back in the drivers footwell ::)) I seem to recall someone getting a quote for a new TPS and being surprised by how expensive it is :o
I hadn't realised that the clock was ticking. Given the cost of a TPS that might explain why the codes had been cleared :-\
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My enthusiasm stems from the fact I'm two weeks into having the car.
It has a (not worth the paper it wasn't written on) 30 day or 1000 mile warranty and if I don't fix it in this time I won't be able to claim back the bits that were wrong with it, or at at least get some compensation for my time as it had thrown the light and lost coolant 20 mins from the dealer. Only reason I didn't take it back there and then was because I realised the leak wasn't the block and had assumed despite they fact they had deleted the codes knowningly that with the help of the forum I was pretty sure we could get to the bottom of it!
Despite sounding to the contrary, I'm fully signed up to following expert advice on here step by step! :y
Excellent!
TPS is attached to the throttle pedal pivot & therefore a pig to get to (unless you like lying on your back in the drivers footwell ::)) I seem to recall someone getting a quote for a new TPS and being surprised by how expensive it is :o
I hadn't realised that the clock was ticking. Given the cost of a TPS that might explain why the codes had been cleared :-\
DBW`s have two, top of throttle pedal & incorporated into throttle body
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MAF looks approx right, but still looking for that steady 2000rpm reading ;)
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TB - I'll give it another shot in a bit. Lead foot and all that!
As for the throttle body and the sender on the pedal - I'd thought this and that's why both had been temporarily swapped out and tested with known working to no avail.
Next step? :o
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If getting TPS codes, with ign on (engine off), carefully watch APS and TPS sensors over full range several times
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Not getting any adverse actual TPS codes active or stored. Although I was told the two tracks should total approx 5v and they sometimes look more like 3v total.
As for the APP TPP readings, here is the last run dumped into word and tidied up somewhat (it's pretty typical value wise)
(http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/mk2cavalier/Andy/Mega/typical_footdown.jpg)
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Sorry, didn't realise you meant stationary there. Is it any use?
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I think TB means that you need to slowly open & close the throttle, several times, while watching the data. If the data jumps or sticks that is not good. You want to see smooth progression in the numbers in response to smooth input by the throttle pedal.
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OK I'll take a go at this. The calculated numbers don't stack up in this anyway!
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I think TB means that you need to slowly open & close the throttle, several times, while watching the data. If the data jumps or sticks that is not good. You want to see smooth progression in the numbers in response to smooth input by the throttle pedal.
On second thoughts, a crazy late night "do I have to drive it again as it" kinda thought..
As both APP and TPP have been changed and the numbers were very close and the problem prevailed, does that put this problem at the door elsewhere?
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I think TB means that you need to slowly open & close the throttle, several times, while watching the data. If the data jumps or sticks that is not good. You want to see smooth progression in the numbers in response to smooth input by the throttle pedal.
On second thoughts, a crazy late night "do I have to drive it again as it" kinda thought..
As both APP and TPP have been changed and the numbers were very close and the problem prevailed, does that put this problem at the door elsewhere?
NO!!!
This is why proper disgnostics must precede random part changine. Why is the TP Load going invalid? ;)
As AndyH says, smooth idle to full throttle and gently back a few times (hence ign on, engine off, so as not to rev the tits off the thing).
When you have done that, just take it for a test drive with the MAF unplugged, to see if it misses.
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OK, will do this on my lunchbreak! :D
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OK! :o
The headline is that apart from the car thinking that it's inlet was -40c and running quite lumpy compared to normal. It revved through the range (second image / third graph) with no EML - even though invalid TPS readings continued. Starts to feel like you are zeroing in here!
Pic1: Multiple cycles of throttle APP / TPP Raw Data
(http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/mk2cavalier/Andy/Mega/apptpp_typical.jpg)
Pic2: All combined: Calculated APP (blue) Calculated TPP (red) with TP Status (green) and RPM (purple) overlaid.
(http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/mk2cavalier/Andy/Mega/no_maf.jpg)
NB Green Line shows IDLE (10%) PARTIAL (40%) and INVALID (100%) TP Status on ECU
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So does unplugging the MAF make the ECU calculate air flow based on throttle position and engine speed alone? So a lot more rough and ready? And the lack of discrepancy between the two no longer being present means that the limp mode wasn't being engaged? This is me naively assuming that the MAF reading is lower or higher or less responsive somehow than it should be.
On top to the above does the ecu lean on the MAF more heavily in general as a compass in it's actions so a faulty MAF makes the ECU accuse throttle FBW components?
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So does unplugging the MAF make the ECU calculate air flow based on throttle position and engine speed alone? So a lot more rough and ready? And the lack of discrepancy between the two no longer being present means that the limp mode wasn't being engaged? This is me naively assuming that the MAF reading is lower or higher or less responsive somehow than it should be.
On top to the above does the ecu lean on the MAF more heavily in general as a compass in it's actions so a faulty MAF makes the ECU accuse throttle FBW components?
Its pointing towards a duff MAF IMHO. Only I'm struggling to prove it. Some readings at different revs, whilst stationary, may help, if we can compare to a known good one. Or if a nearby 2.6 member could do a temp swap?
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Hmmn. Is Vectra 2.6 the same? If so I have one on an old vectra I saved (knowing I wanted a 2.6 mig one day) that my brother wrecked! It's 45 mins away but worth the drive if so.. I'd even go now *almost*..
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Hmmn. Is Vectra 2.6 the same? If so I have one on an old vectra I saved (knowing I wanted a 2.6 mig one day) that my brother wrecked! It's 45 mins away but worth the drive if so.. I'd even go now *almost*..
I'm afraid I don't know without firing up EPC
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PN is same on 2.6 Vectra-B
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Cheers TB - I'd simultaneously checked the world's most reliable source *(eBay) seems to think so: (and a few others besides..) if true, well worth noting for other members models perhaps!
Application List
Vehicle Year CC Engine Code
OPEL - SINTRA 2.2 DTI Jul 1997 to Apr 1999 2171 X 22 DTH
OPEL - FRONTERA B 2.2 DTI (6B_ZC, 6B_VF, 6B_66, 6B_76) Oct 1998 to Sep 2002 2171 X 22 DTH
OPEL - FRONTERA B 2.2 DTI (6B_ZC, 6B_VF, 6B_66, 6B_76) Oct 1998 to Sep 2002 2171 X 22 DTH
OPEL - FRONTERA B 2.2 DTI (6B_ZC, 6B_VF, 6B_66, 6B_76) Oct 1998 to Sep 2002 2171 X 22 DTH
OPEL - FRONTERA B 2.2 DTI (6B_ZC, 6B_VF, 6B_66, 6B_76) Oct 1998 to Sep 2002 2171 X 22 DTH
OPEL - FRONTERA B 2.2 DTI (6B_ZC, 6B_VF, 6B_66, 6B_76) Oct 1998 to Sep 2002 2171 Y 22 DTH
OPEL - FRONTERA B 2.2 DTI (6B_ZC, 6B_VF, 6B_66, 6B_76) Oct 1998 to Sep 2002 2171 Y 22 DTH
OPEL - FRONTERA B 2.2 DTI (6B_ZC, 6B_VF, 6B_66, 6B_76) Oct 1998 to Sep 2002 2171 Y 22 DTH
OPEL - FRONTERA B 2.2 DTI (6B_ZC, 6B_VF, 6B_66, 6B_76) Oct 1998 to Sep 2002 2171 Y 22 DTH
OPEL - VECTRA B 2.6 i V6 Sep 2000 to Apr 2002 2597 Y 26 SE
OPEL - VECTRA B 2.6 i V6 Sep 2000 to Jul 2003 2597 Y 26 SE
OPEL - VECTRA B 2.6 i V6 Sep 2000 to Jul 2003 2597 Y 26 SE
OPEL - OMEGA B 2.6 V6 Sep 2000 to Jul 2003 2597 Y 26 SE
OPEL - OMEGA B 2.6 V6 Sep 2000 to Jul 2003 2597 Y 26 SE
OPEL - OMEGA B 2.6 V6 Sep 2000 to Jul 2003 2597 Y 26 SE
OPEL - OMEGA B 2.6 V6 Sep 2000 to Jul 2003 2597 Y 26 SE
OPEL - OMEGA B 2.6 V6 Sep 2000 to Jul 2003 2597 Y 26 SE
OPEL - OMEGA B 2.6 V6 Sep 2000 to Jul 2003 2597 Y 26 SE
OPEL - OMEGA B 3.2 V6 Feb 2001 to Jul 2003 3175 Y 32 SE
OPEL - OMEGA B 3.2 V6 Feb 2001 to Jul 2003 3175 Y 32 SE
OPEL - OMEGA B 3.2 V6 Feb 2001 to Jul 2003 3175 Y 32 SE
OPEL - OMEGA B 3.2 V6 Feb 2001 to Jul 2003 3175 Y 32 SE
OPEL - OMEGA B 3.2 V6 Feb 2001 to Jul 2003 3175 Y 32 SE
OPEL - OMEGA B 3.2 V6 Feb 2001 to Jul 2003 3175 Y 32 SE
Well I can try it!
(As an aside I did see two silver omegas with omegaowners.com stickers in Radstock near the mini roundabout when I was getting a lift to work the other week! '_' )
I'll head across tomorrow and unplug it!
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I'm slightly hesitant, because normally duff MAFs, which 'almost' work tend to throw the trims out. My initial thoughts from the 1st post symptoms were MAF, but I'm still a bit wary of the trims staying 0% ish. And thus struggling to prove to myself (let alone anyone else) that its the MAF.
I've been trying, as much as anything, to teach correct diags process on this thread, yet embarrassingly had to go on a hunch in the end (exactly what I wasn't encouraging :-[) and unplug the MAF. :-[ :-[ :-[
The fact that it runs without error when the ECU is substituting calculated MAF values, rather than using actual readings, certainly narrows it down in that area.
I hope the MAF sorts it.
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Here's an update!
It RAN smoothly until warm, and then basically seemed to go back to how it was running without MAF connected up to 4K eml (except seemed slightly higher now and with more power)! It was almost as if it bought me more time / revs.
This almost made me want to turn around on my random mission into the dark, but I've returned with a 1yr old known working MAF.
If it's any consolation, I'm now not sure about resorting to the hunch either. (see I'm learning!). But in my defence mechanic mates have been shouting ECU at me since the offset and I've chosen to at least try to be logical. (thanks to your help!)
Will fit before work tomorrow morning if I get a chance and report back by 9am. Seriously, the wave of jubilation as it pulled strongly past the previous limit was immense, only for it to be stolen five-ten minutes later again! :'(
Just shows I have much to learn from slow and steady wins the race. But I'm ever hopeful. ;D ;D
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I changed this before work in the rain and...
So far so good. Only had 60 seconds to test it but it was fantastic to see the right kind of orange flash. TC!
Will "test" tonight and feedback. Think I owe a few of you a pint (and myself for the self infliction!)
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As to those mates shouting ECU, remind me not to let them touch my car. "ECU fault" is the mechanics favourite if they don't understand the symptoms, or how the system works.
Here's hoping the MAF testing is successful :y
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Properly * potentially* buzzing right now. I've learnt a lot more about FBW systems and how they interact with an ECU now too.
Whilst I always keep a spare ECU around for any older car (speaking of old MK2 Cavs here mind) where things like the old SRI 18SE's break regularly this never felt like the management.
Bizarrely, because the readings seemed OK they dismissed it out of hand (a proper scanner not my *cough* attempt). Regardless, a pint is owed. Come over and say hello on the MK2CAV.COM stand this year if you are going to Billing!
(even if it hasn't sorted it haha!)
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Weren't the old Cavs using Lucas Jetronic injection systems, and dizzy based sparks, complete with inertia advance? They were pretty fragile, both with the Jetronic part, and the dizzy parts.
The Bosch Motronic is a full engine management, and is, in Omega form, pretty robust from an ECU point of view.
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I don't know what it is about the ECU build in the 2.6 but I've seen loads of weird symptoms surrounding the MAF sensor. Always on a 2.6. :-\
On a couple, where I've had a hunch, but no conclusive evidence, I've swapped the MAF with my 3.2's MAF (same part, different ECU config) and whilst my MAF has transformed the 2.6, my 3.2 has driven fine on the "faulty" MAF.
Last one I tried, my MAF didn't improve it, but the owner eventually bought a new one, and that did.
That config appears to be very sensitive to the performance of the MAF sensor.
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Weren't the old Cavs using Lucas Jetronic injection systems, and dizzy based sparks, complete with inertia advance? They were pretty fragile, both with the Jetronic part, and the dizzy parts.
The Bosch Motronic is a full engine management, and is, in Omega form, pretty robust from an ECU point of view.
Yup, as soon as they wen't motronic for the last few years they were transformed! Also, moving the ECU to the footwell was a good idea from the 1980's engine bays!
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I don't know what it is about the ECU build in the 2.6 but I've seen loads of weird symptoms surrounding the MAF sensor. Always on a 2.6. :-\
On a couple, where I've had a hunch, but no conclusive evidence, I've swapped the MAF with my 3.2's MAF (same part, different ECU config) and whilst my MAF has transformed the 2.6, my 3.2 has driven fine on the "faulty" MAF.
Last one I tried, my MAF didn't improve it, but the owner eventually bought a new one, and that did.
That config appears to be very sensitive to the performance of the MAF sensor.
This makes a lot of sense in the context of everything else that's gone on with this 2.6!
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Goddammit.
All we've done is given the car the ability to rev through the range in 1st gear.
It still behaves exactly the same in 2nd still. :-[
From now on will only get excited if I can keep the light off for a whole day.
ahh-bugger. Help!
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This sounds similar to an issue Taxi Al had. Boot it and it's fine until a certain speed when it goes into some sort of limp home with a lot of retard. Runs like a dog until you restart engine, then fine again.
Unfortunately we haven't got the the bottom of that yet. Vaguely knock sensor related, IIRC. ::)
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Weren't the old Cavs using Lucas Jetronic injection systems, and dizzy based sparks, complete with inertia advance? They were pretty fragile, both with the Jetronic part, and the dizzy parts.
The Bosch Motronic is a full engine management, and is, in Omega form, pretty robust from an ECU point of view.
Yup, as soon as they wen't motronic for the last few years they were transformed! Also, moving the ECU to the footwell was a good idea from the 1980's engine bays!
Only its still in the engine bay ;)
Bugger. Any new codes?
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Yeah, they moved it back. Just put it in a box!
As for codes. No, but I have a "pretty" image with a couple of questions! Please don't run away though(!) Areas around the RED / YELLOW in the right hand margin are where things look like they are going awry!
(http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/506/1stgeargood2ndgearbadsp.png)
1). Speed pulse disappearing about same time as TPS Invalid and other things
2). Is it speed related as revs cleanly in 1st but not in second / third etc.
2). Engine load sounds like a very low number generally?
3). Do intake valve openings look appropriate?
Obviously happy to come to some arrangement if we get this sorted!
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This sounds similar to an issue Taxi Al had. Boot it and it's fine until a certain speed when it goes into some sort of limp home with a lot of retard. Runs like a dog until you restart engine, then fine again.
Unfortunately we haven't got the the bottom of that yet. Vaguely knock sensor related, IIRC. ::)
Could a trapped/damaged knock sensor cable cause these symptoms? Quite common for the cable that runs in the cable duct in the cam belt cover to get damaged during a cam belt change IIRC.
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Unfortunately we haven't got the the bottom of that yet.
That's the bit that worries me! ???
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It would be interesting to see ignition advance and knock sensor output on that table plot if you have them.
..And you're right, engine load does look low, assuming it's reporting it in %. Not familiar with that software.
Intake valve operation looks as expected (it's only based on engine speed and TPS so should be right).
Oh, and did any codes pop up when the EML started flashing?
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Yup, our friend 300 and 304 and 306! That was all.
What stumps me is that it's speed (or gear / load) related as it'll rev to 5 easily with no light in 1st. Hence all the colour coding.
I do have the ignition advance and knock sensor output for the same period. Will edit and get it up.
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An engine accelerating in a low gear is effectively more lightly loaded than in a higher gear, though, since the rate of change of speed is higher. If knock or a misfire are to occur they are more likely in a higher gear than in a lower gear because the conditions exist for longer as the engine accelerates.
Was a misfire evident when it starting blinking the EML?
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The blinking seems to indicate "oi you have issues" and very quickly - almost instantaneous - we are cut. Bizarrely the drive it up to 4.5k againa dn you loose 5th cyl too thing continues too!
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Hmmm, how convinced are we that the replacement MAF is 100% good?
And, can you confirm, this has a bog standard air filter, not a silly cone, or an oiled filter?
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Yup 100% certain AFM is known good. Bought it about a year ago GM new and was driving up till a month or two ago.
Filter looks clean and is a FRAM or similar generic. I checked the piping this morning when doing the AFM in the rain.
Oiled filters kill MAF I know this as the Ascona doesn't have room for an airbox so runs a pipercross and uses a MAF every 2-3 years give or take as it's more and much closer to the filter too. Would never do that to the MIG! :)
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OK, so changing MAF has made a difference
So, either we're on the right lines, or maybe Kevin Wood's 2.6 experience is skewing the results :-\
Wonder if a reset of the BLMs would be worthwhile, now another MAF is on :-\
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It occured to me that it could be cold start that skewed it working in 1st gear. So as it's so close I think your right and we assume we have modified slightly but the symptoms and cause remain the same unhindered.
However, slightly worryingly, there is no data in the table for Knock Sensor 1 & 2! Is this the cam sensor that connects near the front cam cover on a FWD Vectra etc?
Here's the ignition data I had from that run.
Ignition Dwell Angle - Always 1.7ms
Injector Time from 7-25ms on average
Spark Angle -12 to 25 CA throughout the run.
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No knock sensor data from past runs whatsoever. What sort of values are typical here?
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No knock sensor data from past runs whatsoever. What sort of values are typical here?
Active or inactive I believe. Shouldn't be Active at any point, if all is well.
Given that there has been a difference, I wonder if the fuel trim up at heavier loads is still leaning it off too much, resulting in a misfire or knock which the ECU, rightly, responds very aggressively to, since such things kill engines. Can you read and clear the engine codes? That usually clears the fuel trims on a DBW car. If the code reader won't do it with no codes, fire it up with a multiram solenoid disconnected to create a code.
Then again, I've seen MAFs change symptoms on a 2.6 before with out a total cure. As I said, they seem very fussy.
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The AFM discon this AM gave me codes, as did the misfire 0300 which got stored, which I've cleared to be able to drive it back from testing etc.
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Drove this to work today. I simply can not get my head around how well it drives, how well it pulls to the limiter if you avoid "full load / Invalid". :)
It runs so smoothly for this to be anything major. It's killing me not knowing. Damn my OCD. It just doesn't add up. :'(
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I'm starting to wonder if it's a drive-by-wire failure.. but if that were causing it to go into limp it would certainly raise some codes. :-\
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And swapping out the TB from a 3.2 and a pedal sender didn't change the symptoms either. :-\
Unless there is something about a 3.2 not working on a 2.6 and vice versa - but my bits seemed fine on his 3.2 too!
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Well I've send a pleading message to Kevin who is about 2 hours away. Or I take it to billing and if there was a Tech2 techie there.. maybe they could shed some light. The only car I've ever owned that I love it, despite the fact it get's slower when you hit the pedal!
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OK. Trying to take another look at this.
Here is the question!
What on earth is different between full throttle through first gear compared to second? Load? Speed? Something more technical?
Surely the difference between 1st and 2nd is marginal in the overall scope of the setup?
1st results in the car taking off like a rocket ship. 2nd, a shuddering wreck with EML etc..
Am totally stumped!
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or I was!
Looks like the auto programme has a slightly different idle, or this ECU does at least.
Runs like a charm now though. Thanks everyone for your help. :y :y