Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: jonnycool on 04 July 2012, 20:46:02
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My wife has just received an email from Axa Insurance,
A routine audit check on your policy has highlighted that the vehicle you currently have insured with us, <describes car> was previously declared an insurance Category D write off on 20/09/2008. This information is recorded on the HPI website.
A vehicle is often declared a write off when an Insurance Company decides the vehicle is damaged beyond economical repair. There are 4 write off categories, Category A and B vehicles should be scrapped as they are no longer roadworthy and Category C and D vehicles can be repaired and placed back on the road.
As detailed in the Terms and Conditions, your vehicle is unacceptable for cover and we will be unable to continue to insure this vehicle due to it’s history. Your policy will be cancelled in 7 days with effect from 23:59 on 11/07/2012 unless a change of vehicle is made on your policy.
What do we do now? :-\ :-\ Do I just re-insure it, declaring that it has previously been written off??
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2 questions instantly come to mind ...
1) Was it written off to your knowledge ??
if Yes
2) Did you inform the insurers when you insured it
If you did not know it was written off AND there is nothing on the V5 (logbook) saying it has been .. then you have much scope for an argument !!!! :)
If you knew and it is on the V5 but you just didn't tell them, they are completely within their rights, and could actually "have you" for fraud if they so wished ...... :(
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If its category D it basically means it could have been fixed but insurer decided not to. As far as I know it just needs a new MOT to get it back on the road, some insurers ask for a more advanced MOT test but should still be fairly simple. Some insurers will refuse to insure it though even if its classed as roadworthy and you may find that your premium will be more than it was. Ask AXA what you need to do they will tell you exactly what they need to continue insuring it.
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You could try, but tbh the way that reads is that they choose not to insure cat c or d right offs. If it had been declared prior to the policy being taken out, they might not have offered the insurance in the first place :-\
If they covered the car when it was written off, then they should have been aware of the cars status when they renewed the policy. :-\
Doubtless someone wiser and better looking will be along shortly :y
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No, I would never knowingly try to insure (or buy, for that matter) a car that I knew to be previously written off - just off to find the V5......
No, I didn't do a HPI check either :-[
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No, I would never knowingly try to insure (or buy, for that matter) a car that I knew to be previously written off - just off to find the V5......
No, I didn't do a HPI check either :-[
If you didn't know, and there is nothing on the V5, then AFAIK it has not been "written off" according to the DVLA ... might be worth contacting DVLA to confirm ... and then contact insurers and point out that it is NOT written off and they have no reason to cancel the policy. If they try tell them you will issue proceedings in the county court.
It might well be worth a quick phone call to the insurers to check you have not been spammed as well ... e-mails being notoriously unreliable ...... actually .. the more I think on it .. I doubt they can legally cancel your policy by e-mail.
I would be ringing the insurers PDQ to ensure it is correct :)
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Where on the V5 would it indicate that it has been written off? There's nothing on it to indicate this as far as I can see :-\
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See my above comments typed at the same time .... I really think you may have been spammed .... phone the insurers.
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Where on the V5 would it indicate that it has been written off? There's nothing on it to indicate this as far as I can see :-\
In the box at the bottom of the front page :y mine, by way of example, says: Category C recorded, Substantial damage/repair to OSR quarter :y
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See my above comments typed at the same time .... I really think you may have been spammed .... phone the insurers.
It does seem to be genuine - I've just done a cheap HPI check which confirms that it has been stolen and recovered, and written off. The only thing I can find on the V5 is 'validation character - D'. Is this telling me that it's a category D write off, or is it coincidence?
Edit: just read Taxi Al's reply, no - it doesn't say anything in the box on the front page other than it was declared new at first registration
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If it does turn out to have a history, think carefully about whether it was misrepresented when you purchased it, especially if you bought from a trader.
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If it does turn out to have a history, think carefully about whether it was misrepresented when you purchased it, especially if you bought from a trader.
It was from a trader actually, and there was no mention of it being written off
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Where on the V5 would it indicate that it has been written off? There's nothing on it to indicate this as far as I can see :-\
In the box at the bottom of the front page :y mine, by way of example, says: Category C recorded, Substantial damage/repair to OSR quarter :y
So you had this re-MOT'd and reinsured, yes?
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Cat D doesnt appear on V5. Trader would almost certainly have HPI checked the car and should have known.
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Yup :y
Had to go to VOSA for a Vehicle Identity Check as well, just to confirm that it was the same single car ::)
No issues with reinsuring it either :y still insured through the same broker.
Cat D cars are new Mot only afaik :y
Fwiw my insurance remained in force and valid. Car was only able to be driven to place of repair/mot/VOSA. :y
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Right, thanks for all the information chaps, at least I've got a better idea of what to do now :y :y
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Oh and check the small print with your insurer. You are obliged to declare what you know about the car. They have entered into a contract with you and if they did not declare they would check against a database, i would complain for breach of contract.
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A Category C write off will appear on the log book as Al describes, but a Cat D won't.
A Cat D means the vehicle was damaged, and the repair cost was more than 40% or 50% of the vehicles pre accident value. Stolen recovered vehicles normally appear as a Category X, not a Cat D.
How long have you had the vehicle for? If not a long time, I would be back in touch with that trader asap as Cat D's have a lower market value.
If you need assistance, PM me.
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Oh and check the small print with your insurer. You are obliged to declare what you know about the car. They have entered into a contract with you and if they did not declare they would check against a database, i would complain for breach of contract.
Will do, thanks :y
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A Category C write off will appear on the log book as Al describes, but a Cat D won't.
A Cat D means the vehicle was damaged, and the repair cost was more than 40% or 50% of the vehicles pre accident value. Stolen recovered vehicles normally appear as a Category X, not a Cat D.
How long have you had the vehicle for? If not a long time, I would be back in touch with that trader asap as Cat D's have a lower market value.
If you need assistance, PM me.
PM sent :y
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If it does turn out to have a history, think carefully about whether it was misrepresented when you purchased it, especially if you bought from a trader.
It was from a trader actually, and there was no mention of it being written off
Hmm.. Might be worth ascertaining the rules as they apply to traders. Not sure if a trader would have to have indicated / implied that it was HPI clear or if they should have mentioned it up front. :-\
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Next step then is to contact the trader for a polite chat. If you get no joy then straight around to Citizens Advice/Trading Standards.
http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/businesssupportandadvice/tradingstandards/advicetoconsumers/fromtradingstandards.htm?frmClient=8101FCED-1185-6B25-FCCB0EAFD6E4D0B5&frmItemID=122489&frmShared=1
Insurance claims
Selling a vehicle that has been classified as a category C or D write off without making this clear to the consumer may be an offence under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 and you should report this to Citizens Advice for the case to be referred to trading standards. It is advisable to ask the trader whether the vehicle has been in any accidents before the sale.
HTH
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If it does turn out to have a history, think carefully about whether it was misrepresented when you purchased it, especially if you bought from a trader.
It was from a trader actually, and there was no mention of it being written off
Hmm.. Might be worth ascertaining the rules as they apply to traders. Not sure if a trader would have to have indicated / implied that it was HPI clear or if they should have mentioned it up front. :-\
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I think they have to now.... :-\ the last 3 cars I have bought from a motor trader have shown me evidence of an HPI Check, with the Jeep it came with the paperwork....... :)
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If it does turn out to have a history, think carefully about whether it was misrepresented when you purchased it, especially if you bought from a trader.
It was from a trader actually, and there was no mention of it being written off
Hmm.. Might be worth ascertaining the rules as they apply to traders. Not sure if a trader would have to have indicated / implied that it was HPI clear or if they should have mentioned it up front. :-\
Josh Wyatt very kindly offered me some advice, it seems that a dealer wouldn't always check a car but of course it would be in his best interest to do so. It is always advised that you check a car yourself, so I don't expect the dealer to do anything other than deny everything and say, 'you're on your own mate', so a visit to Trading Standards may be the way to go, or at least a threat to do so.
I'm not holding my breath for anything positive to happen though, so I think I'll arrange a new MOT as a starting point :-\
Jon
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Next step then is to contact the trader for a polite chat. If you get no joy then straight around to Citizens Advice/Trading Standards.
http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/businesssupportandadvice/tradingstandards/advicetoconsumers/fromtradingstandards.htm?frmClient=8101FCED-1185-6B25-FCCB0EAFD6E4D0B5&frmItemID=122489&frmShared=1
Insurance claims
Selling a vehicle that has been classified as a category C or D write off without making this clear to the consumer may be an offence under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 and you should report this to Citizens Advice for the case to be referred to trading standards. It is advisable to ask the trader whether the vehicle has been in any accidents before the sale.
HTH
You must have read my mind ;D
Thanks Entwood, that's very interesting
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Well, it has a current V5 and MOT, presumably, so it's a road legal car. ISTR that normally the V5 and MOT would be surrendered for a write off and returned once a satisfactory VIC has been completed (not sure a cat D even requires that?) so this must have been done when it was put back on the road.
I would try your luck pursuing the insurance company, as I guess you'll be out of pocket if they cancel the policy. If that doesn't bear fruit, re-insure it with someone else, declaring the CAT D, name and shame the current insurers and vow never to touch them again. >:(
EDIT: Pursue the trader as well, obviously.
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To add weight to your claim against the trader, imagine what would have happened if you'd had a serious claim without knowing the status of the car. Insurance company would have washed their hands of you. :o
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Well, it has a current V5 and MOT, presumably, so it's a road legal car. ISTR that normally the V5 and MOT would be surrendered for a write off and returned once a satisfactory VIC has been completed (not sure a cat D even requires that?) so this must have been done when it was put back on the road.
I would try your luck pursuing the insurance company, as I guess you'll be out of pocket if they cancel the policy. If that doesn't bear fruit, re-insure it with someone else, declaring the CAT D, name and shame the current insurers and vow never to touch them again. >:(
EDIT: Pursue the trader as well, obviously.
It has the V5 and a current MOT (the tester commented on the condition of the car and that it looked well looked after). However the HPI check I've just done shows that it has not had a VIC. Whether it needs one is something I'll have to find out :-\
Your comment about an insurance claim doesn't bear thinking about mate, my wife uses the car to ferry our two young kids about, and despite not being made of money by any means, I wouldn't knowingly have risked buying a write-off of any description in a million years :(
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A VIC check is only required on a Category C vehicle, and not a Cat D.
Some people do intentionally buy Cat C or D vehicles, as they should be susbstantially cheaper than the non written off vehicles.
Cat D vehicles sometimes only need something as simple as a new headlight, so I wouldn't worry about it being unsafe.
As mentioned in the PM, trader first, if no joy then trading standards.
But it sounds like the trader was cutting corners to save himself the £7 for a HPI check or he was plain wrong and sold a vehicle he knew was written off.
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Surely, if you've had the car long enough to have needed it to be MoTd, a fresh one will make no difference as it's already been tested since being written off :-\
If you bought it a month or so ago with a short MoT, without an hpi check, then the trader could be pulling a fast one, depending how he came to have the car. From an auction such things are declared in the vehicle sale details.
For the shadier side of things, there could be good money made from selling repaired Cat D cars and selling them on without declaring owt :-\ A lesson if ever there was... firms such as HPI and Equifax exist for a very good reason. :'(
Hope you get it resolved :y
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Surely, if you've had the car long enough to have needed it to be MoTd, a fresh one will make no difference as it's already been tested since being written off :-\
If you bought it a month or so ago with a short MoT, without an hpi check, then the trader could be pulling a fast one, depending how he came to have the car. From an auction such things are declared in the vehicle sale details.
For the shadier side of things, there could be good money made from selling repaired Cat D cars and selling them on without declaring owt :-\ A lesson if ever there was... firms such as HPI and Equifax exist for a very good reason. :'(
Hope you get it resolved :y
The car was bought on 10 Nov 2009 and had been declared stolen/recovered and written off on 20 Sept 2008, a good 13 1/2 months before. I think it's unlikely that the dealer didn't know the situation TBH
A lesson if ever there was... firms such as HPI and Equifax exist for a very good reason. :'(
You're absolutely right, another harsh lesson learned, I feel extremely stupid and p***ed off right now, yet again :(
I've sent an email to my local trading standards office to get the ball rolling. Not really holding my breath at the moment, but thanks to all who have contributed to this thread
Jon
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Surely, if you've had the car long enough to have needed it to be MoTd, a fresh one will make no difference as it's already been tested since being written off :-\
If you bought it a month or so ago with a short MoT, without an hpi check, then the trader could be pulling a fast one, depending how he came to have the car. From an auction such things are declared in the vehicle sale details.
For the shadier side of things, there could be good money made from selling repaired Cat D cars and selling them on without declaring owt :-\ A lesson if ever there was... firms such as HPI and Equifax exist for a very good reason. :'(
Hope you get it resolved :y
The car was bought on 10 Nov 2009 and had been declared stolen/recovered and written off on 20 Sept 2008, a good 13 1/2 months before. I think it's unlikely that the dealer didn't know the situation TBH
A lesson if ever there was... firms such as HPI and Equifax exist for a very good reason. :'(
You're absolutely right, another harsh lesson learned, I feel extremely stupid and p***ed off right now
So .. you've had it 3 years .. and insured it all that time .... and the insurers have JUST decided it was written off 4 years ago ??? Something wrong there TBH ... :(
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So .. you've had it 3 years .. and insured it all that time .... and the insurers have JUST decided it was written off 4 years ago ??? Something wrong there TBH ... :(
Yes, good point, apparently Axa have done a 'routine check' which showed up the problem
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It's also possible that there has been an administrative error, I suppose? Then again, with the cat D being dated so long ago I'd be surprised.
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A routine audit check on your policy has highlighted that the vehicle you currently have insured with us, <describes car> was previously declared an insurance Category D write off on 20/09/2008.[/i]
As detailed in the Terms and Conditions, your vehicle is unacceptable for cover and we will be unable to continue to insure this vehicle due to it’s history. Your policy will be cancelled in 7 days with effect from 23:59 on 11/07/2012 unless a change of vehicle is made on your policy.
If this is their policy, then it does raise the question as to how/why they insured the car in the first place :-\ surely a quick check by themselves of the insurance database at the policies inception would have highlighted the Cat D listing. Unless the car was given a new registration number which has only just filtered through the system.
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I've been thinking about this overnight... This happened over 3 years ago so it's had 3 MOT's since then - it should just be a case of re-insuring with a different insurer and declaring it a Cat D shouldn't it? This will obviously push the premiums up though >:(
It doesn't need a VIC check either by all accounts, but the HPI check I did defines the Cat D write-off as being a car that has been damaged and repairable, where the cost of the repair is less than the value of the car. Why would they write it off in this case?
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I've bought, repaired used and sold quite a few Cat D cars, infact the Diesel i've just bought is a cat D which had bumper and headlight damage and i've never had trouble insuring them
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I've bought, repaired used and sold quite a few Cat D cars, infact the Diesel i've just bought is a cat D which had bumper and headlight damage and i've never had trouble insuring them
Thanks Pete, I'll have a look at a few quotes today :y
Why do they write a car off if the cost to repair is less than the value of the car? I thought the whole idea of a 'write-off' was because it was uneconomical to repair, costing more than the car's worth :-\
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Cat Ds are often fairly minor damage, but by the time you factor in the cost of hire cars whilst it is repaired, it's enough to push it "beyond economical repair" I personally have no problems with cat Ds, but each to their own. Omegas are not worth a great deal so are likely to be written off by pretty much any damage that would be worth claiming for!
Cat Ds are not recorded on the log book and don't need a VIC, maybe that implies the DVLA are not too fussed about them???
As for insurance companies, it's another example of them making it up as they go along (in much the same way as some won't touch grey imports but others accept them as the same as the equivalent UK spec car) As I understand it, the problem is that they won't pay out a total loss claim twice so if it's a cat D it means thay have already paid out on it once.
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I've bought, repaired used and sold quite a few Cat D cars, infact the Diesel i've just bought is a cat D which had bumper and headlight damage and i've never had trouble insuring them
Thanks Pete, I'll have a look at a few quotes today :y
Why do they write a car off if the cost to repair is less than the value of the car? I thought the whole idea of a 'write-off' was because it was uneconomical to repair, costing more than the car's worth :-\
To repair my diesel using genuine new Vauxhall parts would have cost a lot of money. I was lucky as I had a breaker here in the same colour ;)
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insurers also make mistakes and sometimes on purpose >:(
it took me nearly a month to clear the omega insurance state.. the idiots recorded the windscreen change as an accident
and dropped my insurance reduction rates >:( >:( >:(
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Cat Ds are often fairly minor damage, but by the time you factor in the cost of hire cars whilst it is repaired, it's enough to push it "beyond economical repair" I personally have no problems with cat Ds, but each to their own. Omegas are not worth a great deal so are likely to be written off by pretty much any damage that would be worth claiming for!
Cat Ds are not recorded on the log book and don't need a VIC, maybe that implies the DVLA are not too fussed about them???
As for insurance companies, it's another example of them making it up as they go along (in much the same way as some won't touch grey imports but others accept them as the same as the equivalent UK spec car) As I understand it, the problem is that they won't pay out a total loss claim twice so if it's a cat D it means thay have already paid out on it once.
Are you saying that if I had a total loss claim, that the insurer wouldn't pay out on it? Kind of defeats the purpose of having insurance in the first place :-\
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If this is their policy, then it does raise the question as to how/why they insured the car in the first place :-\ surely a quick check by themselves ....
But you were dangling a cheque book at them. Why would they refuse your money? They can always decide that you failed to declare it if there's a claim, leave you high and dry with no cover, and they are quids in. >:(
This is a financial institution we're talking about. They are in it to make money, not satisfy the customer. ;)
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My 2p worth, in no particular order:
I don't remember *ever* having to answer a question on the lines of: "has the car ever been written off", when buying car insurance.
If the insurer *does* ask, and insures you anyway - you have an expectation that the policy would be exactly the same as one for a car which has not been written off.
On a side note - if the insured buys the car back to repair, it's not been a "total loss" to the insurance co.
Insurers don't check VIC details, and they don't check points/claims when you apply - they are only checked at the point of claim - don't know why. mate who works for insurance says its data protection. I reckon that checking costs money, either in losing customers, or actually paying for a database check.
or just that they get your money and then refuse to pay out if you didn't tell them.
A formal complaint to the insurance company would be a good start - if they didn;t ask about write off, and you didn't know until they told you, then I don't think they can cancel your contract as technically you aren't in breach.
If nothing else, you might get a partial refund of your premium - take it all the way to the ombudsman, cos it'll cost the insurance co £800 for the referral, and if they know you'll do that, they'll figure it's cheaper to pay you off, or admit they've made a mistake (in which case, don't forget you can ask for "costs" of £18 an hour for writing letters'research + stationery, parking, petrol for visit to post office etc)
Be aware - there is a question on most comparison sites "have you ever had insurance cancelled or special restrictions applied?" which you will have to answer truthfully, and will inevitably bump your premium up >:(
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My 2p worth, in no particular order:
I don't remember *ever* having to answer a question on the lines of: "has the car ever been written off", when buying car insurance.
If the insurer *does* ask, and insures you anyway - you have an expectation that the policy would be exactly the same as one for a car which has not been written off.
On a side note - if the insured buys the car back to repair, it's not been a "total loss" to the insurance co.
Insurers don't check VIC details, and they don't check points/claims when you apply - they are only checked at the point of claim - don't know why. mate who works for insurance says its data protection. I reckon that checking costs money, either in losing customers, or actually paying for a database check.
or just that they get your money and then refuse to pay out if you didn't tell them.
A formal complaint to the insurance company would be a good start - if they didn;t ask about write off, and you didn't know until they told you, then I don't think they can cancel your contract as technically you aren't in breach.
If nothing else, you might get a partial refund of your premium - take it all the way to the ombudsman, cos it'll cost the insurance co £800 for the referral, and if they know you'll do that, they'll figure it's cheaper to pay you off, or admit they've made a mistake (in which case, don't forget you can ask for "costs" of £18 an hour for writing letters'research + stationery, parking, petrol for visit to post office etc)
Be aware - there is a question on most comparison sites "have you ever had insurance cancelled or special restrictions applied?" which you will have to answer truthfully, and will inevitably bump your premium up >:(
VERY good point, and exactly why you should be fighting the insurance company. ALL insurance (Home, car, life..) ask if you've ever had cover refused or cancelled, so it could well bump up all your premiums for good. >:(
I rather hate insurance companies. >:(
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The email I received actually told me that I didn't have to answer 'yes' to that question, and I'll retain that in my records. Another thing in the email was, and I can't quote at the moment, because I'm on my phone, but it listed some terms and conditions, one me them being 'we do not insure cars that have been written off', so despite the fact that I didn't know this about the car, I haven't got much to argue with really. They're also refunding more than a month's premium as well
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The email I received actually told me that I didn't have to answer 'yes' to that question, and I'll retain that in my records. Another thing in the email was, and I can't quote at the moment, because I'm on my phone, but it listed some terms and conditions, one me them being 'we do not insure cars that have been written off', so despite the fact that I didn't know this about the car, I haven't got much to argue with really. They're also refunding more than a month's premium as well
The key point is if you were asked if it had been previously written off when you took out the cover and if that information is hidden in the Ts and Cs.
Whilst it's fair enough for them to cancel your cover if they find you've given false information it's not fair if they decide they don't want to honour your policy any more so have found some spurious detail that they think allows them to wriggle out of it.
I would work out if you are going to be out of pocket on the proportion of the premium they refund.
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Here is how they explain themselves in the email...
A vehicle is often declared a write off when an Insurance Company decides the vehicle is damaged beyond economical repair. There are 4 write off categories, Category A and B vehicles should be scrapped as they are no longer roadworthy and Category C and D vehicles can be repaired and placed back on the road. When you purchased your policy, you electronically signed and agreed to the Terms and Conditions and I would like to draw your attention to the following section regarding vehicles we cannot cover:
1.If it has been previously written-off or scrapped (including where the vehicle log book identifies that the car has been previously damaged or repaired, or an HPI database check identifies the vehicle as a category A, B, C or D write off). A HPI Check can identify if a vehicle has outstanding finance, is stolen, written off or provide a warning for suspicions relating to the mileage recorded for it.
As detailed in the Terms and Conditions, your vehicle is unacceptable for cover and we will be unable to continue to insure this vehicle due to it’s history. Your policy will be cancelled in 7 days with effect from 23:59 on 11/07/2012 unless a change of vehicle is made on your policy.
Your policy will be cancelled on a pro-rata basis which means that a cancellation charge will not be applied and you will only be charged for the number of days insurance you have used.
Upon the cancellation of your policy there will be a refund due of £55.01 (which is inclusive of Insurance Premium Tax). This refund will be processed back to the original payment details on the date of cancellation and can take up to 14 days to show in your account.
If when looking for new quotations you are asked if you have ever had insurance cancelled or declared void, you do not need to answer yes to this question as this policy is being cancelled due to an indemnity issue with your vehicle only and not due to an issue with you as a Policy Holder.
I emailed the local Trading Standards office last night to see if they can help me with a claim against the dealer I bought it from, as I'll be out of pocket when I come to sell it, the increased insurance premiums I'm going to have to pay and for all the 'distress' involved ::)
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OK. Seems the insurance company are being reasonably fair. I wonder if that exclusion is a new addition to their terms, and that's why it's only just come up? Let's hope this isn't going to be a trend that all insurers follow.
Certainly worth making a note of any costs you face in reinstating insurance and loss of vehicle value. Might be worth a small claims action against the trader?
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I emailed the local Trading Standards office last night to see if they can help me with a claim against the dealer I bought it from, as I'll be out of pocket when I come to sell it, the increased insurance premiums I'm going to have to pay and for all the 'distress' involved ::)
I don't think Trading Standards will help you with a claim against the dealer. Any action they take may help prove that you have a case, but I think you would need to take legal action yourself, probably via a lawyer. You need to have shown that you have taken all reasonable steps yourself to seek a remedy so your first step would be to explain to the dealer what you have found out and ask them to offer some level of compensation. Be prepared for the dealer to say that they told you it was a Cat D write-off when you bought the car...
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Indeed. Come up with a figure estimating loss of value and cost of sorting out the insurance fiasco and request the dealer make amends. Threaten to take it to court, seek publicity, etc. if he resists. He may just pay up to avoid any hassle.
Local trading standards will, as said, not be much use in a one-off case, but you never know, it might not be a one-off and they might be looking for evidence against the guy already.
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A Category C write off will appear on the log book as Al describes, but a Cat D won't.
A Cat D means the vehicle was damaged, and the repair cost was more than 40% or 50% of the vehicles pre accident value. Stolen recovered vehicles normally appear as a Category X, not a Cat D.
How long have you had the vehicle for? If not a long time, I would be back in touch with that trader asap as Cat D's have a lower market value.
If you need assistance, PM me.
im just going throuh this cenario with recent rear end shunt to my mig and they said 66% of the pre accident value :y but i am finding this post very interesting ;)