Omega Owners Forum

Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: vauxsky on 04 September 2012, 11:19:32

Title: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: vauxsky on 04 September 2012, 11:19:32
Hi, had this for about a month, and getting worse.

Finding it difficult to change gear, wondered at first whether it needed a new clutch, but as yet have no clutch slip or odd reving associated with clutch wear.

Always had a minor-slight difficulty engaging 2nd gear, but now 1st is effected , possibly 3rd.

DId think about adjusting gear linkage first, but needs some special tool km631A - or is there another method without tool.

Looked on forum for related issues, but could not find any.

Any help on this is appreciated

cheers
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: jonathanh on 04 September 2012, 11:23:37
try checking gearbox oil level or preferrably draining and refilling with new stuff - should help a bit
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: tigers_gonads on 04 September 2012, 11:26:24
Agree with that  :y

There is a sight / filling point on the side of the manual box.
The oil should be upto this hole when you un screw the plug  :y
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: vauxsky on 04 September 2012, 11:30:33
Hi, thankyou for that, will check

Concerning the oil, the halfrasuds says that the gearbox has different oil types, is it easy to drain - what should i use to flush  and whats the best replacement spec

cheers
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: RobG on 04 September 2012, 11:38:01
Drain plug @ bottom, filler on side. Only use VX  # 93165290 IIRC comes only in 1ltr bottles need @ least 2. Fill to 9mm below hole
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: jonathanh on 04 September 2012, 14:27:53
and its easy to drain and a pig to fill - I'd suggest a metre of pipe fed from engine bay and a funnel, pour away easily then
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 04 September 2012, 14:52:08
its EP 80 transmission oil..  but after experiencing in cold, mobil 75w90 is much better :y
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: GastronomicKleptomaniac on 04 September 2012, 17:00:03
Drain plug @ bottom, filler on side. Only use VX  # 93165290 IIRC comes only in 1ltr bottles need @ least 2. Fill to 9mm below hole

How much does it cost, roughly?
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: duke101 on 04 September 2012, 18:24:17
I had the same problem with my manual 2.5 about 6 months ago...difficult to get in gear and a few weeks later the clutch would slip occasionally, depressing the clutch pedal a few times would restore normal operation for yards or miles. Asked on here with no joy so decided to inspect the clutch...found the pressure plate securing springs had started to break up ...i think by this time only one was still connected...a new clutch cured it
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: vauxsky on 05 September 2012, 21:21:31
Emptied old oil out - measured and came to about a litre, halfrauds says 1.2, so not far off full.

Re-filled with new - made no difference, so I think I has to be the clutch -

What manufacturer is the original clutch, does anyone know - Borg & Beck ect.

Will look at the instructions on the forum

cheers
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: Andy H on 05 September 2012, 22:14:15
If the linkage between the gearbox and the gear lever slips it might make selection difficult.

Not difficult to adjust IIRC :-\ just a hollow tube clamped to a serrated shaft out of the back of the gearbox. If it is loose you may be able to see were it used to be? If it isn't loose then it probably isn't the problem.......
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: vauxsky on 06 September 2012, 10:56:16
Linkage looks ok, removed my downpipe nuts ok on the exhaust manifold - decided to have a cuppa - rang for a clutch price and the guy at the Parts Emporium said mine has a Dual Mass Flywheel - What?  has someone raided the space shuttle breakers

Any avice on this phenominom (hope I smelt that right)

cuppas still in hand

cheers
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: tigers_gonads on 06 September 2012, 11:07:34
First things first mate, is the clutch slipping ?
Can you slip the clutch with the handbrake on ?

As for the DMF, unless its being really abused imho they are pretty bomb proof.

If the DMF is on its way out, you normally get a kick or judder when you take up drive.

I shopped around a couple of years ago and got my hands on a Lucas clutch and slave for just under 200 quid but if I was you, i'd be tempted to pull the gearbox off and have a look at the friction linings before I spend the money on a clutch incase its the gearbox itself thats breaking down.
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: tigers_gonads on 06 September 2012, 11:32:28
Just to add, most garages will demand that you change the DMF even though it may be ok just to cover there arse with the clutches warrenty  ;)
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 06 September 2012, 11:37:07
dmf's are expensive and so is the dmf clutch set..
 
I used 2.5 vectra single mass flywheel (machined) and its clutch(new) .. no probs..
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: vauxsky on 06 September 2012, 12:30:43
Answer to these Questions

No it is not  .....................*First things first mate, is the clutch slipping ?
No, tried that, wont slip.....*Can you slip the clutch with the handbrake on ?
No kick or Judder..............*If the DMF is on its way out, you normally get a kick or judder when you take up drive.


Is this right, a DMF for the 2.6 and 3.0 are the same as the 2.5, that came from a parts supplier, although Halfrauds has different
sizes for the friction plates

2.5 = 228mm dia
3.0 = 240mm dia
2.6 = anybody any info on this ?

cheers




Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 06 September 2012, 12:34:10
Unlikely to need a salve cylidner on an Omega, never yet seen one fail.

Three piece clutch kit can be got for sub 150 notes e.g. here:

http://www.buypartsby.co.uk/details/VAUXHALL/OMEGA/3.0/2000/__/34/624165209/clutch-kit/

DMF on these does not cause any issues and easy to check once the box is off.
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: tigers_gonads on 06 September 2012, 12:51:29
Imho, i'd be thinking about the box  :-\
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: vauxsky on 06 September 2012, 13:01:36
the box - really - its that simple once these points everyone has mentioned have been met - what about linkage adjustment.

Suppose I had better take it off then and have a look.



Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 06 September 2012, 13:03:16
Linkage is not adjustable, its a rear wheel drive box.
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: Andy H on 06 September 2012, 20:08:15
Linkage is not adjustable, its a rear wheel drive box.
[Panto Voice]Oh yes it is![/Panto Voice]

The shaft between the back of the box and the remote gear lever (hidden inside a rubber boot thing) on my 1994 Omega was very similar to the linkage on an Astra (but about 2 feet shorter ::))

It did seem a bit unnecessary so I suppose it could have been designed out on later cars :-\
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: JayMV6 on 06 September 2012, 20:44:13
Does the clutch pedal feel normal? Just wondered if there was bit of air in the system that might need bleeding but im no expert and im sure I will get alot of replys to this explaining why im wrong.  :D
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: Andy H on 06 September 2012, 21:02:44
Does the clutch pedal feel normal? Just wondered if there was bit of air in the system that might need bleeding but im no expert and im sure I will get alot of replys to this explaining why im wrong.  :D
That could cause clutch drag, there is a bleed nipple sticking out through the side of the bell housing that might be worth checking.

The other possible cause is the master cylinder if the seals are on their last legs.
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: vauxsky on 07 September 2012, 12:57:30
the gearbox is out?

the clutch plate is not down to the rivets yet, but there are funny surface marks on both sides of the pad. Also, there are, what looks like hot/burn marks on the pressure plate and the flywheel face.

But, these might have been caused by me trying the handrake - dropping the clutch "test" to see if there was any slip - which there was not.

So now I need to know what to measure to see if the flywheel needs replacing - any ideas where I get this measurement?

the local parts guy said he has a diagram for the measurement of the Dual Mass Flywheel, so I might take a trip down to him to see what he has.

Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: vauxsky on 07 September 2012, 16:54:31
dmf's are expensive and so is the dmf clutch set..
 
I used 2.5 vectra single mass flywheel (machined) and its clutch(new) .. no probs..

I saw your suggestion, Standard Flywheel(Skimmed) and New Clutch - does this still work with the hydraulic
Thrust Bearing - do not need to change gearbox - use my gearbox?

Rang LUKe the suppliers and manufacturers, he suggested to test if the DMF is ok, put a bar from one side to the other(make some bolt-bar lash-up) and force the DMF down onto its springs - do this around the DMF and feel the tension - if they are all the same and no nasty sounds it is probably ok.

Be carefull not to turn the dmf too fast or you might jump the belt.

cheers
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: aaronjb on 07 September 2012, 16:56:02
I think that if you're using the standard hydraulic bearing, you need a spacer to space the flywheel off by the equivalent thickness of the DMF?

Sure Cem/others will confirm, though.
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 07 September 2012, 19:38:40
dmf's are expensive and so is the dmf clutch set..
 
I used 2.5 vectra single mass flywheel (machined) and its clutch(new) .. no probs..

I saw your suggestion, Standard Flywheel(Skimmed) and New Clutch - does this still work with the hydraulic
Thrust Bearing - do not need to change gearbox - use my gearbox?

Rang LUKe the suppliers and manufacturers, he suggested to test if the DMF is ok, put a bar from one side to the other(make some bolt-bar lash-up) and force the DMF down onto its springs - do this around the DMF and feel the tension - if they are all the same and no nasty sounds it is probably ok.

Be carefull not to turn the dmf too fast or you might jump the belt.

cheers

we use everything standard except the flywheel and clutch.. gearbox is getrag 240..
 
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x80/mecdv6/omega/clutchbearingcem.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x80/mecdv6/omega/smfcem.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x80/mecdv6/omega/baskbalatacem.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x80/mecdv6/omega/r252cem.jpg)
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 07 September 2012, 19:56:04
I think that if you're using the standard hydraulic bearing, you need a spacer to space the flywheel off by the equivalent thickness of the DMF?

Sure Cem/others will confirm, though.

not a big difference between smf and dmf as I remember..  :-\
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 07 September 2012, 19:58:23
dmf's are expensive and so is the dmf clutch set..
 
I used 2.5 vectra single mass flywheel (machined) and its clutch(new) .. no probs..

I saw your suggestion, Standard Flywheel(Skimmed) and New Clutch - does this still work with the hydraulic
Thrust Bearing - do not need to change gearbox - use my gearbox?

Rang LUKe the suppliers and manufacturers, he suggested to test if the DMF is ok, put a bar from one side to the other(make some bolt-bar lash-up) and force the DMF down onto its springs - do this around the DMF and feel the tension - if they are all the same and no nasty sounds it is probably ok.

Be carefull not to turn the dmf too fast or you might jump the belt.

cheers

we use everything standard except the flywheel and clutch(pressure plate etc).. gearbox is getrag 240..
 
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x80/mecdv6/omega/clutchbearingcem.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x80/mecdv6/omega/smfcem.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x80/mecdv6/omega/baskbalatacem.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x80/mecdv6/omega/r252cem.jpg)
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: vauxsky on 12 September 2012, 10:18:31
"we use everything standard except the flywheel and clutch(pressure plate etc).. gearbox is getrag 240.. "

Hi CEM, I thought you said,  everything was standard except the FLywheel and Clutch, whats a Gertrag 240 gearbox and your pictures are showing a DMF flywheel?

I think I am keeping it standard, just changing the Pressure Plate and Clutch Pad.

Will just mention the Bushes on the Linkage Pin were broken too - 2 off, ordered new ones £8.0 ea from VX
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 12 September 2012, 10:55:39
"we use everything standard except the flywheel and clutch(pressure plate etc).. gearbox is getrag 240.. "

Hi CEM, I thought you said,  everything was standard except the FLywheel and Clutch, whats a Gertrag 240 gearbox and your pictures are showing a DMF flywheel?

I think I am keeping it standard, just changing the Pressure Plate and Clutch Pad.

Will just mention the Bushes on the Linkage Pin were broken too - 2 off, ordered new ones £8.0 ea from VX

its not dmf.. dmf stays in home somewhere else..its a standard flywheel from a 2.5 vectra..
 
getrag 240 is standard manual transmission found on v6 2.5.. dont know if the late omega models have the same..
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: vauxsky on 14 September 2012, 14:49:41
Is it ok to clean the Fly wheel face with petrol, or could this contaminate the new clutch pad, or can you recomend something else.

cheers
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: philhoward on 14 September 2012, 15:51:55
Is it ok to clean the Fly wheel face with petrol, or could this contaminate the new clutch pad, or can you recomend something else.

cheers
Brake and clutch cleaner - comes in a spray can.
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: vauxsky on 14 September 2012, 16:26:59
Ok good idea,

bit of a daft one, which way round does the clutch pad go, or is it obvious when I offer it up - long end on the gearbox end - short at the flywheel?

cheers
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: vauxsky on 14 September 2012, 20:32:59
Silly me, I forgot to take German at school, I buy a clutch thats made in my Country and its got German on it

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad3/Optomust1/Untitled.jpg)
Title: Re: Gear Change Difficult - 24V-V6-2.5-Manual
Post by: vauxsky on 18 September 2012, 09:16:41
Finaly,

Everythings back in, thanks to everyone who posted info and suggestions. The Difficult GEARCHANGE is gone, the clutch feels brand new and the gearchange is smooth again, just to recap.

1. Changed the Clutch Pad and Clutch Plate - the Original was Luk - put the same back.
   ** Did not change the Dual Mass FLywheel ** (see above for sugestion on checking the DMF from Luk)

2. Got a second Hand thrust race and Hydraulic Unit, as my thrust race was noisey

3. Bled the Hydraulic Unit



      While I had the Gearbox out I noticed a slight wheep on the main Water feed pipe directly above the gearbox - held on by 2
torx bolts, which returns back to the front of the engine - drivers side. I replaced the "O" ring and cleaned the faces, used some silicone grease to help seal the flange.

To de-crease any flex or tension on the pipe, where it bolts to the EGR bracket, I modified the bracket to sit exactly under the pipe location - slot  - so no tension on the 2 torx bolts.