Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Nickbat on 11 November 2012, 20:36:19
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Bulgarians and Romanians will gain the unrestricted right to live and work in the UK from December 2013, Home Secretary Theresa May has confirmed.
Temporary curbs imposed in 2005 to protect the British labour market are set to expire on that date.
The Labour Party have said they would support any moves to extend the ban.
But Mrs May told the BBC's Andrew Marr show that was not possible under EU law, although she was hoping to limit the impact on the UK economy.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20287061 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20287061)
Discuss. ;)
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>:( Love the line it is "plausible" Romanians would come here for the strong economy >:(
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another fact prooving that EU is non-existent ;D :D
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Gawd help us all! >:(
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From my perspective all of them would have access to healthcare as well and knowing our government, they wouldn't charge back any of the EU countries enough to make back the lost revenue.
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VOTE UKIP :y
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Don't worry guys, at a time the Hungarian Socialist Party had a scary slogan : "25 million Romanian employee will occupy the Hun job market soon ! " Voila - happened nothing. Most of people on here like their own wellknown environment much better than they would go to abroad. This is a definiate problem here that many people won't go to an other part of country ( not even to the neighbour county! ) to take a new job. There is no significant internal migration for the sake of a new career, too ! So my thoughts is this stuff has got much smoke than blaze. :)
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The Romanians who needs a job in another country had already moved long time ago..
you would normally expect them to move in large numbers to another country when they enter the EU.. but this didnt happen.. because they moved before ;D
and you can relax Nickbat as Romanians prefer Spain,Portugal and Italy where their native language is more suitable and weather is fairly better.. :y
ps: and the other destinations are south america latin countries and israel which is an exception..
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/28/immigration.immigrationandpublicservices (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/28/immigration.immigrationandpublicservices)
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/28/immigration.immigrationandpublicservices (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/28/immigration.immigrationandpublicservices)
dont want to go to there bloody country aswell ;D ;D
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/28/immigration.immigrationandpublicservices (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/28/immigration.immigrationandpublicservices)
dont want to go to there bloody country aswell ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D :y
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Let me give you clue as to why they may come here.......... BENEFITS >:( >:( >:(
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Keep up Nick. Everyone is already here. ;)
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Economic migration. It has always happened. The Irish left Ireland in their droves due to the potato famine, landowners etc. The Welsh did likewise and now have large enclaves in unlikey places like Chile. The Italians left Italy in their droves.
Today Spaniards are leaving Spain in their droves. One destination is the Uk. Like it or not the Uk is a rich country with jobs - might be "low" paid jobs but they are jobs nonetheless. In Spain unemployment is 25% and youth unemployment a staggering 56%. Can you blame them for wanting a better life?
London is the sixth largest city in France by population of French.
I saw a breakdown of Immigrants by country into Spain.
By far the biggest group were Rumanians and Bulgarians. Nearly 1 million. I don't know about the employement rate but many are reckoned to be in rackets.
Next was Brits at 650,000. Of those I would guess at least 80% are retired.
Next was Chinese at 350,000. All under retirement age and all working LONG and HARD hours building businesses selling cheap goods - A bit like Wilkos but on ASDA scale. All their retired go back to China where they have , they feel, a better health service and retirement
If you live in Sain pre retirement age technically you do not qualify for State Healthcare unless you are in employment. You have to have private health insurance. I think it is a disgrace that the UK lets all and sundry have access to the NHS. I dare say their are "expat" websites helping foreigners jump the queues. In Spain now anyone arriving after April of 2012 has to be able to prove they have the means to live here (private income/fat bank balance) before they get residency. Anything like that in Britain? Don't suppose so as we don't even know where the illegals are. What a shower.
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Apart for all the facts surrounding the immigration and regardless we all feel about it, I will always be aware of one fact.
It was during the Labour Governments 13 years that THEY lost all control on immigration; a) they openly encouraged an open door approach and b) managed to lose all knowledge of how many immigrants had actually arrived in the UK.
The Coalition now have the immigration problem, amongst many, to deal with, along with the question of the EU which could resolve this and a number of issues!
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Apart for all the facts surrounding the immigration and regardless we all feel about it, I will always be aware of one fact.
It was during the Labour Governments 13 years that THEY lost all control on immigration; a) they openly encouraged an open door approach and b) managed to lose all knowledge of how many immigrants had actually arrived in the UK.
The Coalition now have the immigration problem, amongst many, to deal with, along with the question of the EU which could resolve this and a number of issues!
I agree that Labour encouraged many immigrants. I suspect that whatever government had been in would have done the same. Britain needed those low paid workers to do the jobs Brits didn't want to do. There was pretty much full employment (excluding those Brits who never had any intention of working and just living off the state). Times were prosperous and Britain was booming like other European countries. Spain during the same time encouraged anyone willing to wrok and who could speak Spanish to come to Spain. They got 1000 euros to help. They took out mortgages and settled in to low paid jobs that the Spanish did not want to do. Agriculture and building work. Then the bottom fell out of - well the world as the banks brought us to our knees. Now Spain is paying the immigrant(and any family) 400 euros to clear off (back to South America.) Many are leaving and losing everything they had including their flats. No long term social security here just Red Cross, The RC church and family. I blame the Border Agency for losing control of where people are. How can they sleep at night? Britain is one of the few countries in the EU where people can just disappear.
Even if the Coalition bite the bullet and say goodbye to the EU , no one will have the guts to sort out the issue. Amnesty would spring to mind and still the border agency would fail us for future illegals. Within five years I still say we will either be out of the EU or (heaven forbid) in the Euro.
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I predict the Euro will be finished over the next 3-5 years Varche.
Greece, then Spain will do for it! :D
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Varche,the myth about needing low paid imigrants to do the jobs Brits didnt want to do is just that.A complete myth.The first jobs they went for were jobs on building sites,plumbing and other general trades - not exactly the lowest paid jobs,but among the highest paid manual type jobs in the country.I know many bricklayers who lost their jobs due to recent arrivalls walking on site,asking how much bricklayers (and other trades) were being paid,and then immediately offered to undercut the people working there by 30- 40%.
Hence,,huge numbers of hard working British people put out of work by greedy employers with a short term view.
Thankfully there are signs of this tend now being reversed as appalling workmanship has cost them more in the long run,as remedial costs and company reputations caused the companies concerned more money in the long run.
When the company who I had grafted tirelessly for,for 20 years dismissed me instantly due to a degree of disabilty they replaced me with a young eastern european immigrant.I heard from many people he wasnt capable of doing half the work I did and the work he did do was of such low standard that they had to constantly go behind him and rectify it.That and the total disrexpect for the expensive machinery he used and the resultant damage to it,meant that it would have been cheaper to pay him not to come to work at all. The company carried on with this policy for a while and after 50 years of employing local people,they went bust.
They started up again under a slightly different name (thus denying me the £15,000 I was awarded against them) and went back to the previous habit of employing local people.
British people were always among the hardest working most innovative people in the world and needed no lessons from anyone about how to do a good days work.This changed for some of them when the socialists cynically built up the client state and paid them more in benefits than many people earned at work,therefore buying their votes with other peoples money.
Despite all that,imo we still have a population who for the most part are conscientious hard working people and dont need others to come and do our work while we sit on our arses,unless of course the priority is cheap labour in the short term and ignoring the very large obvious problems that brings in the longer term.
Lets not forget that it has been admitted that Liebore deliberately allowed mass immigration to "shake up the UK,and rub the rights nose in it".
Rant over. :)
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Isn't this "cheap labour" a modern ill created by society.
Here is an example. You can buy a bag of carrots- 2Kg for 30p in your supermarket. Proper price should be around £1. The farmer is growing them on ridiculously low margins. Seed,fertiliser and fuel still costs more every year. The only thing he can really cut is labour costs. In a sensible society everyone would have a fair share but capitalism doesn't work like that. I guess at the end of the day if Brit farmers don't come up with cheap produce then we just buy it from abroad.
I have a good working knowledge of the olive oil business. Up until two years ago the farmers around us paid "foreigners" 40 euros(about £32) a day and they worked them into the ground for that and didn't feel guilty. Each morning there would be a group waiting outside the village bar till the landowners came out at 9.30(you can't really pick till about 10.a.m. for practical reasons) and then they picked the best looking prospects from a big pool. Some had walked 8 miles from another village that specialises in veg growing. Now there is none of that as they use Spanish workers only and still have a good choice.
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Isn't this "cheap labour" a modern ill created by society.
Here is an example. You can buy a bag of carrots- 2Kg for 30p in your supermarket. Proper price should be around £1. The farmer is growing them on ridiculously low margins. Seed,fertiliser and fuel still costs more every year. The only thing he can really cut is labour costs. In a sensible society everyone would have a fair share but capitalism doesn't work like that. I guess at the end of the day if Brit farmers don't come up with cheap produce then we just buy it from abroad.
I have a good working knowledge of the olive oil business. Up until two years ago the farmers around us paid "foreigners" 40 euros(about £32) a day and they worked them into the ground for that and didn't feel guilty. Each morning there would be a group waiting outside the village bar till the landowners came out at 9.30(you can't really pick till about 10.a.m. for practical reasons) and then they picked the best looking prospects from a big pool. Some had walked 8 miles from another village that specialises in veg growing. Now there is none of that as they use Spanish workers only and still have a good choice.
:) :y :y :y
while farmers, workers hardly put something on their table some people swim in money.. >:(
in Turkey, farmers (say tomato) hardly sell at a price of 20p , we can buy at a price of 1.5-2£.. this the famous capitalism.. >:(
where there is profit dont expect any moral values.. >:(
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During my trucking days the company I worked for mostly did trunking runs for the supermarkets so I was regularly in and out of the 'Big 4' supermarket's distribution centres. One that always springs to mind in conversations like this is a Sainsbury's RDC at Emersons Green on the outskirts of Bristol.
Before 2004 the vast majority of the workers were local, from Bristol and the surrounding areas. I got to know a few of the lads who worked there and there always seemed to be a sense of camaraderie between them, probably because the work was pretty dull but the wages were good and if you stuck at it there were good opportunities for advancement to be had. :y
After 2004 the place became very different. Many of the 'old faces' disappeared and more and more Eastern Europeans were working there. I reckon that within a year the vast majority of the workforce were from Eastern Europe and they were getting paid minimum wage!! ::) Chatting to a Polish lad one day I asked him how he could afford to live on the low wages and he told me that he shared a terraced house with 12 other Polish lads, his car was Polish (so his tax and insurance was peanuts) and he reckoned that within 2 or 3 years he would have saved enough to go home and start a business or buy a house! :)
At all of the supermarkets distribution centres the story was the same. None of these places were new facilities, and had been operating before 2004 and the influx of Eastern Europeans. We seemed to manage OK without them, so this argument that we need the workers to do the jobs that lazy Brits won't just dosn't stack up with me!! >:( and just for a bit of balance I don't blame the Poles or other Eastern Europeans for coming here, after all if you could earn 10x as much in France there'd be a stampede for the boats!! ;D In fact I've a couple of mates who did very well in the late '80's, early '90's grafting in Germany! Auf Wiedershen Pet style!! :y
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Mass migration by Labour was for two reasons:
1. The majority of immigrants from third-world countries will vote Labour and the senior Labour luvies hate the British people, our culture and history and this was the most effective way to destroy it. Also all immigrants from EU countries are pro-EU for obvious reasons, and for those outside, they don't care. Tony BLair also personally benefitted from this and the human rights act that he signed up to, though his wife's increased earnings.
2. It suited the Labour government to drive down wage costs and to stop UK workers from working, so they then became clients of the state. The natural Tory voters them would then not vote for the beastly Tories who would cut their benefits. Also by driving down industry costs, inflation would stay low, interest rates low (too low, which caused the housing bubble), so they could raise taxes without people feeling too badly off and borrow lots of money to make them feel even better. Deregulated the banks and allowed them to do whatever they liked as long as they made huge profits, so Labour got more tax money to spend. This is how they managed to get 3 terms in office and almost a fourth term.
Labour also gerrymandered the boundaries for MPs to their advantage, which the LibDems are currently trying to stop being corrected, by renegading over their agreement, over the referendum they got over the voting system in return for supporting this. They are putting party over ethics and they are openly courting Labour-Lib Government after the next election.
Labour has always been much more mercenary about changing things while in power to their advantage to stay in power and every Labour Government from the 1920's onwards has ALWAYS run out of other people's money. This is when their merry-go-round has stopped and they have been voted out, for the Tories to pick up the mess, we go through years of pain and as soon as they have fixed the problems, we have another 3 labour terms to start the cycle all over again.
Most Bulgarians and Romanians (and Ukrainians) are already here, via Poland, where if you worked for 2 years there (especially as a low paid agricultural worker), you can / could (not sure if this easy entry route still exists) get Polish nationality which opened the whole of the EU to you. This is what happened in large numbers, due to Polish mass migration to the UK, so they had a labour shortage. There will be a small influx from those countries and they may well be many who will be here for easy pickings, rather than the hard work Polish route.
Reading the comments section on the DT page is very interesting on why many people professional people have left or are emigrating from the UK.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/9667069/The-new-brain-drain-and-who-can-blame-them.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/9667069/The-new-brain-drain-and-who-can-blame-them.html)
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::) Rods if you write more I will also blame UK Labor party for what happened in Turkey ;D ;D ;D :y
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::) Rods if you write more I will also blame UK Labor party for what happened in Turkey ;D ;D ;D :y
We will happily let them take the blame for Turkey, by exporting them to you, can have them, we will chuck in the LibDems for free and much of the Conservative party for good measure, anytime you want. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Just make sure you can afford to keep them at the standards of living they aspire to. They all need big salaries, mistresses secretaries, chaffeurs and even bigger expense accounts for the their basic necessities in life, like subsidized holiday and buy-to-let houses, pond duck houses to porn DVDs. :o :o :o :o
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Invasion is the answer. Deal with it!
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Please consider that the state interetsts and policy often not the same of the person's, so can be occurred that individuals lost a bit but the state gets extraordinary benefit. I'm absolutely not a supporter of immigration but why do we not mention immigrants who were/can be really beneficial for the new home of themselves? I mean we can often hear or read on the news that for example the American Mr Chinese-sound Name and Mr Spanish-sound Name shared got the actual Nobel prize for researches in point of something. Well, they are often first generation immigrants..and at the end please let me to mention some Hun "immigrants" on here who took huge glory for theirs new home.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Gabor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Gabor) - Holography
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_von_Neumann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_von_Neumann) - Binary systems and the first computer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zsef_Galamb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zsef_Galamb) - Carburettor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Teller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Teller) - Nuclear developments
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Ah Johnny .. you forget about the British "working class" predilection for only seeing the things they want to see, and ignoring the real world, superbly backed by the Tabloid Press who print banner headlines that bear little resemblance to the truth ....
"Immigration is bad .. it robs UK people of jobs" ...... so lets take a look ...
NHS - Would be unable to cope if it was not for immigrant doctors/nurses ... nicely ignored, especially when you need one.
Engineers - UK universities produce less then 20% of the engineering/science graduates we need , due to the high number of underwater basket weaving courses that are availble, neatly ignored when you need something designed and built properly.
"MR UK" loves a good curry, and of course, every curry house is run/manned/cheffed by an English man isn't it ... again .. neatly ignored on a Saturday night.
If "Mr UK" got of his arse, got some proper qualificatons, and did a days work for a days pay(rather than a days work for a weeks pay plus what you can nick), then the immigrants would not be able to get jobs and would not come ....
:)
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Ah Johnny .. you forget about the British "working class" predilection for only seeing the things they want to see, and ignoring the real world, superbly backed by the Tabloid Press who print banner headlines that bear little resemblance to the truth ....
"Immigration is bad .. it robs UK people of jobs" ...... so lets take a look ...
NHS - Would be unable to cope if it was not for immigrant doctors/nurses ... nicely ignored, especially when you need one.
Engineers - UK universities produce less then 20% of the engineering/science graduates we need , due to the high number of underwater basket weaving courses that are availble, neatly ignored when you need something designed and built properly.
"MR UK" loves a good curry, and of course, every curry house is run/manned/cheffed by an English man isn't it ... again .. neatly ignored on a Saturday night.
If "Mr UK" got of his arse, got some proper qualificatons, and did a days work for a days pay(rather than a days work for a weeks pay plus what you can nick), then the immigrants would not be able to get jobs and would not come ....
:)
;D ;D ;D ;D :y yes if you thought better would see that if there is any kind of vaccum it will be filled up soon from either close or far environment...believe or not Hungary also suffers from immigration namely the other side of this that we call as "brain sucking" when young talents leave for the USA or GB and I could continue to occupy positions, which are empties there. Most of Hun guys I know and work over there are have graduate, college or university but working as leaflet spreader or cleaneing staff at a hotel...
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Engineers - UK universities produce less then 20% of the engineering/science graduates we need , due to the high number of underwater basket weaving courses that are availble, neatly ignored when you need something designed and built properly.
They have an important role to play, though, based on my experience of University. They provide a challenge for the engineering students, who, despite having about 30 hours a week more lectures to attend, still manage to do a better job of the core student activities of drinking and smoking pot, and also manage a bath occasionally. ;)
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Engineers - UK universities produce less then 20% of the engineering/science graduates we need , due to the high number of underwater basket weaving courses that are availble, neatly ignored when you need something designed and built properly.
They have an important role to play, though, based on my experience of University. They provide a challenge for the engineering students, who, despite having about 30 hours a week more lectures to attend, still manage to do a better job of the core student activities of drinking and smoking pot, and also manage a bath occasionally. ;)
normally 40 but 50 - 60 hours if you have probation.. :-\ been there done that..
I still dont understand how I finished engineering with few hours of work in university :P
probably from the back door ;D ;D
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http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/358279/EU-wants-migrants-to-take-our-jobs (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/358279/EU-wants-migrants-to-take-our-jobs)
::) ::) >:(
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A keyword has been sounded : "ageing population" , how would you fill up the positions if there were no people ? EU is ageing it's a wellknown fact. Untill it's sorted out immigrants will get the job they want. Anyway if I were you I'd rather choose immigrants from East-Europe than an African country. :)
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As this thread about immigration is still running, I thought I would repeat my observations that I stated in another thread to try and 'explain' the basic point about this subject which so many 'white British' seem to forget when discussing this potentially "heated" subject:
The important point to make in any discussion about immigration, is that throughout the history of this nation we have been changed, and always enhanced, by constant immigration of new blood / genes.
Since tribes of ancient people crossed over the Dogger plains in what would become Britain, we have experienced the inflow, and outflow of what would become, or were, "Brits". The Romans came, then the Anglo Saxons, followed by Vikings, with the Normans coming in quick succession. Since then the British nation has been joined by numerous nationalities with the ebb and flow of Empires, with the British Empire 'encouraging eventual mass immigration after years of Brits emigrating / invading so many corners of the World, with slavery also a contributor as it is still in the USA.
Earlier global 'Events' such as the Roman, Otterman then later Austria-Hungarian Empires (the latter affecting the majority of 20th century history) and then them extending their fingers across the Eastern and Western areas of the globe, with lets not forget, the "Christian" Crusades adding to the movement of the worlds people, that of course affected the British Isles along with everything else.
World Wars have also added to the British mix of people with Britain becoming, proudly, a base for all democratic minded people to fight oppressive evil regimes. This constant mixing will continue throughout the future as it has in the past with especially Islamic religion (which currently is causing so much controversy about immigration) working with, and changing alongside Christianity. The former is evolving 500 years behind Christianity, with, to us as Christians, old crude ideals. Christianity went through that process from our pagan background and has had many black moments in the distant past. All will eventually balance out in God's world and we all will live in an advanced society where all creeds, cultures, and colours of people will work as one.
This is the way Great Britain can flourish with new ideas and positive commercial drive, as it always was throughout our history, well certainly since the Romans.
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What if we don't want to change and have a country full of chocolate allah worshipping primitives. :(
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What if we don't want to change and have a country full of chocolate allah worshipping primitives. :(
Fate will decide the future, and no one person or group of people will be able to halt change and progress as history has taught us.
No one particularly likes change away from their comfort zone, but change happens in nature constantly, and so it applies to the human race.
Worry more about the super-volcano Yellowstone National Park in the USA. Now that will be great change!;)
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I see immigration as seasoning in a meal. Without it, we would have a bland land. The diversity of immigration in the past, brought with it undeniable benefits.
However, again like seasoning, too much can spoil the food, with the taste of the basic ingredient being completely lost. That is what I fear may happen here.
There is, of course, also the counter argument against the so-called economic benefits and that is the huge costs associated with the increased burdens placed upon our infrastructure of housing, hospitals, schools, etc.
Our tiny island cannot take unchecked mass immigration. A simple fact, IMHO.
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More worrying to me is the fact that British born muslims commit terrorists acts in this country. >:( >:(
A natural event cannot be prevented, immigration and it's ideology can.
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What if we don't want to change and have a country full of chocolate allah worshipping primitives. :(
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D if you say this in a muslim country.. you will be hanged by the balls ;D
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More worrying to me is the fact that British born muslims commit terrorists acts in this country. >:( >:(
A natural event cannot be prevented, immigration and it's ideology can.
nope.. they will come with their minds,beliefs and feelings.. and even the later generations wont be very different, I'm afraid ..because they take the education from their parents.. :-\
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More worrying to me is the fact that British born muslims commit terrorists acts in this country. >:( >:(
A natural event cannot be prevented, immigration and it's ideology can.
LOL
Remember Guy Fawkes and his conspirators were all white British, as were the later Chartists who carried out all kinds of acts of 'terrorism' in their drive for rights and freedom. :D
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More worrying to me is the fact that British born muslims commit terrorists acts in this country. >:( >:(
A natural event cannot be prevented, immigration and it's ideology can.
nope.. they will come with their minds,beliefs and feelings.. and even the later generations wont be very different, I'm afraid ..because they take the education from their parents.. :-\
Not if we didn't let them here in the first place ;)
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More worrying to me is the fact that British born muslims commit terrorists acts in this country. >:( >:(
A natural event cannot be prevented, immigration and it's ideology can.
LOL
Remember Guy Fawkes and his conspirators were all white British, as were the later Chartists who carried out all kinds of acts of 'terrorism' in their drive for rights and freedom. :D
Bloody Catholics now, is that were the primitive muslims got their ideas from. :D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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More worrying to me is the fact that British born muslims commit terrorists acts in this country. >:( >:(
A natural event cannot be prevented, immigration and it's ideology can.
LOL
Remember Guy Fawkes and his conspirators were all white British, as were the later Chartists who carried out all kinds of acts of 'terrorism' in their drive for rights and freedom. :D
Bloody Catholics now, is that were the primitive muslims got their ideas from. :D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
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Islam is not a religion in the sense of Christian and other religions. It is a total way of life. The brain washing starts young, this is why many fail to integrate into Western society and some become terrorists.
Sadly, history teaches us that it is always the radicals that will lead the rest.
Spain was largely a Muslim country in the middle ages, but had a "Western" liberal version of it, until North African / Middle Eastern radicals came along and radicalized it as a middle ages Taliban. It was a Christian invasion that freed Spain and it became a Christian country again. Muslim radicals have vowed to make it a radical Muslim state again on the basis of once a Muslim state always a Muslim state.
The history of the Islamic religion is not one of passive integration. If it was then 7/7 would not have happened.
The last time we had this level of immigration and a change to this country was 1066 and that was not a good time for the natives. This is why you will find no churches or many historical building older than the 10th century as they were almost all systematically destroyed by the Normans as part of imposing their way of life on us.
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Islam is not a religion in the sense of Christian and other religions. It is a total way of life. The brain washing starts young, this is why many fail to integrate into Western society and some become terrorists.
Sadly, history teaches us that it is always the radicals that will lead the rest.
Spain was largely a Muslim country in the middle ages, but had a "Western" liberal version of it, until North African / Middle Eastern radicals came along and radicalized it as a middle ages Taliban. It was a Christian invasion that freed Spain and it became a Christian country again. Muslim radicals have vowed to make it a radical Muslim state again on the basis of once a Muslim state always a Muslim state.
The history of the Islamic religion is not one of passive integration. If it was then 7/7 would not have happened.
The last time we had this level of immigration and a change to this country was 1066 and that was not a good time for the natives. This is why you will find no churches or many historical building older than the 10th century as they were almost all systematically destroyed by the Normans as part of imposing their way of life on us.
The interesting thing about the Normans was they conquered countries throughout Europe, including Britain, in a brutal way, but then post the "revolution" (the Saxons of course had been foreigners to Britain) they always allowed the local religions / customs to carry on, providing just the administration and government. Indeed, there are examples of Islamic, Christian and pagan worship taking place side by side throughout the Norman extended empire.
As for the churches, before the Normans set about building the great Cathedrals we know today, they were relatively small and represented today by the many Saxon churches still standing. In fact there are also even earlier examples, such as St. Martin's church in Canterbury that date from the establishment of the Christian faith in Britain during the 6th century.
The Normans also created, apart from other castles, the original keep of the Tower of London, and how British that now is!
No, the Normans were very good for Britain overall, although the Saxon's wouldn't agree! ::) In fact it was Henry VIII who destroyed far more churches, cathedrals, monasteries, etc, in his little dispute with the Roman Catholic Church! ;)
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Them bloody catholics again ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Some fascinating posts from Lizzie Zoom today on this thread.
I feel like I've learned a fair bit about the history of this land, thank you.
Makes a nice change from fear and prejudice. :)
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Some fascinating posts from Lizzie Zoom today on this thread.
I feel like I've learned a fair bit about the history of this land, thank you.
Makes a nice change from fear and prejudice. :)
Thank you :y
My aim is to provide a balanced, historical factual (as to the best of my knowledge) statement without fear, prejudiced and hate. We MUST NEVER repeat the mistakes of the last century.
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So Lizzie you're happy with SHRIA law !! :o :o
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So Lizzie you're happy with SHRIA law !! :o :o
No, but that is pure scaremongering.
Most Muslim countries do not want that law; in Britain they want British law.
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Sorry Lizzie but sharia law is already practised in this country by muslims. I note that you say that you don't want it but if we don't stop it it can only grow. The muslim community grow at a rate that will see some of our cities having a larger majority than the indigenous population with the result that the elected representatives both local and national will be able to push their stoneage values.
It is not scare mongering it is fact and not something I want for my grandchildren, no allah akbar in this once great country. Well is was before the bleeding heart liberals got involved
I know the thread was about Eastern Europeans but this place is full so no more. Just for the record I have no issues with any people coming to this country if they work, integrate, contribute, uphold our values, speak our language and do not try to change us .
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Sorry Lizzie but sharia law is already practised in this country by muslims. I note that you say that you don't want it but if we don't stop it it can only grow. The muslim community grow at a rate that will see some of our cities having a larger majority than the indigenous population with the result that the elected representatives both local and national will be able to push their stoneage values.
It is not scare mongering it is fact and not something I want for my grandchildren, no allah akbar in this once great country. Well is was before the bleeding heart liberals got involved
I know the thread was about Eastern Europeans but this place is full so no more. Just for the record I have no issues with any people coming to this country if they work, integrate, contribute, uphold our values, speak our language and do not try to change us .
Spotted ! :y It is not issue for Europeans but definiately for muslims. Here is an examp how sophicticated methods they have taken from Hungary where also exists islamic community.The leader of them is a member of the Hungarian Christian-Democratic Party :o where he is voting for his own party if needed (not always!) then the question of Muslims he is able to replace higher and higher level all the time. I still say though if we had enough baby more than muslims have it wouldn't cause any problem. This is the trouble of you, too !
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I respect all your views and identify with your fears.
However, please think about the fact that Christianity will only weaken in the Country if YOU as the general public allow it. Go to church more, speak out about on Christian values around every topics, support the Church of England or the Catholic Church if you really are concerned about other religions taking control. Then and only then can you rightly say you are afraid of another religions influx into this country!
As another point also consider Islamic teaching revolve around there being just one God, as with the Christian Church, and that religion recognises Jesus Christ, but as a Prophet, not as the son of God. When you actually read the Holy Qur'an you will see that the teachings correlate closely with those in the Holly Bible.
There is nothing to fear from true Islam, apart from how certain people interpret the meanings, that has transpired over time. Just consider as to how currently the Christian Church has strong elements who oppose women bishops, same sex marriage and homosexuality. Those individuals would love to impose their beliefs on all of us, which they think can be based on Bible teachings, just as you fear Islam would. But that only actually transpires if you all, the great people of this country allow it. Then also think how our pagan ancestors felt when Christianity entered the country all those centuries ago, but actually that religion still exists out there, living alongside all other religions.
I would also comment on the statement that "Islam is not a religion but a way of life". ALL religions, which Islam is most certainly, ARE a way of life, dictating the way people act, their morals, principles, their judgments, what they do and when. True Christians, as I try to be as a Child of God, follow a certain way of life, as my adopted people the Maltese do, living their lives around their religion with everything considering the Holy Mary. Everywhere you will see little shrines dedicated to her, even on the old buses, and Maltese dutifully crossing themselves in front of them (who wouldn't when going on Maltese roads!!) and a set annual calender of Church festivaties, with street parades. They live their lives around the Catholic Church, talking regularly to the priest to seek guidance on how they should live, and of course receiving confession.
In Britain we are a far more secular society, but there are still strong Church elements that rule our lives, dictate our laws, and lay down the way we should truly live within God's love. The ten commandments greatly influence our laws, and mean for instance we cannot go around killing our fellow man without due punishment. No, as for the last 500 years, the Church of England has worked alongside the monarchy and our government to administer the country, forming the way we live.
To consider that Islam is somehow detrimental to our way of life is far from the truth. They, and us, will continue to try and obey God's laws, with the teachings of Jesus Christ or Mohamed being used as a base to justify our actions. As already stated the teaching held within both the Holy Bible and the Holy Qur'an are so similar the differences are not worth considering. The only true concern would be as to how certain individuals interupt the teachings, but that, as stated previously, is true of the Christian Church as well.
In conclusion all I am concerned with is how the general public, mankind, act to either support the British Democracy or not, how they live, how they following the path of greed and evil pursuit, or not. Religions do not concern me as I do not belong to one, but try and understand all as a Child of God privately worshiping him directly and working towards implementing my life according to his laws.
To fear other religions is a severe weakness, and remember it has caused mass hysteria before in this country alone with countless innocent victims suffering as a result. Wars, public burning, hangings, and other gruesome events have marred our history. Do not let this happen again for the sake of our children, grandchildren, and those to come. God bless us. Believe in him fully and you will have no fear.
-
Well I'm glad I'm an ATHEIST and don't believe in the brain washing relegions just object to their evil practices.
The bible is just a library of books with some great stories, I guess the koran is the same load of crap I would happily burn both. Then we'll see the primitive reactions of those you seem to welcome and not worry about. The argument may be about the teachings of the real Islam being good, the trouble is those that believe that do not speak out against the radical clerics who preach jihad on the the infidel, I.E us. They are an insular society in out midst. BE WARNED I don't think you suit a burka ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D
My views on immigration are above we got ourselves into this mess time we put a stop to it. I agree with Johnny English :y
-
Sorry Lizzie but sharia law is already practised in this country by muslims. I note that you say that you don't want it but if we don't stop it it can only grow. The muslim community grow at a rate that will see some of our cities having a larger majority than the indigenous population with the result that the elected representatives both local and national will be able to push their stoneage values.
It is not scare mongering it is fact and not something I want for my grandchildren, no allah akbar in this once great country. Well is was before the bleeding heart liberals got involved
I know the thread was about Eastern Europeans but this place is full so no more. Just for the record I have no issues with any people coming to this country if they work, integrate, contribute, uphold our values, speak our language and do not try to change us .
Spotted ! :y It is not issue for Europeans but definiately for muslims. Here is an examp how sophicticated methods they have taken from Hungary where also exists islamic community.The leader of them is a member of the Hungarian Christian-Democratic Party :o where he is voting for his own party if needed (not always!) then the question of Muslims he is able to replace higher and higher level all the time. I still say though if we had enough baby more than muslims have it wouldn't cause any problem. This is the trouble of you, too !
thats not possible.. :-X
-
and sooner than you expect you will see that this community will decide who will be your next prime minister :-\
and politicians will try every way to take their votes :(
-
I respect all your views and identify with your fears.
However, please think about the fact that Christianity will only weaken in the Country if YOU as the general public allow it. Go to church more, speak out about on Christian values around every topics, support the Church of England or the Catholic Church if you really are concerned about other religions taking control. Then and only then can you rightly say you are afraid of another religions influx into this country!
As another point also consider Islamic teaching revolve around there being just one God, as with the Christian Church, and that religion recognises Jesus Christ, but as a Prophet, not as the son of God. When you actually read the Holy Qur'an you will see that the teachings correlate closely with those in the Holly Bible.
There is nothing to fear from true Islam, apart from how certain people interpret the meanings, that has transpired over time. Just consider as to how currently the Christian Church has strong elements who oppose women bishops, same sex marriage and homosexuality. Those individuals would love to impose their beliefs on all of us, which they think can be based on Bible teachings, just as you fear Islam would. But that only actually transpires if you all, the great people of this country allow it. Then also think how our pagan ancestors felt when Christianity entered the country all those centuries ago, but actually that religion still exists out there, living alongside all other religions.
I would also comment on the statement that "Islam is not a religion but a way of life". ALL religions, which Islam is most certainly, ARE a way of life, dictating the way people act, their morals, principles, their judgments, what they do and when. True Christians, as I try to be as a Child of God, follow a certain way of life, as my adopted people the Maltese do, living their lives around their religion with everything considering the Holy Mary. Everywhere you will see little shrines dedicated to her, even on the old buses, and Maltese dutifully crossing themselves in front of them (who wouldn't when going on Maltese roads!!) and a set annual calender of Church festivaties, with street parades. They live their lives around the Catholic Church, talking regularly to the priest to seek guidance on how they should live, and of course receiving confession.
In Britain we are a far more secular society, but there are still strong Church elements that rule our lives, dictate our laws, and lay down the way we should truly live within God's love. The ten commandments greatly influence our laws, and mean for instance we cannot go around killing our fellow man without due punishment. No, as for the last 500 years, the Church of England has worked alongside the monarchy and our government to administer the country, forming the way we live.
To consider that Islam is somehow detrimental to our way of life is far from the truth. They, and us, will continue to try and obey God's laws, with the teachings of Jesus Christ or Mohamed being used as a base to justify our actions. As already stated the teaching held within both the Holy Bible and the Holy Qur'an are so similar the differences are not worth considering. The only true concern would be as to how certain individuals interupt the teachings, but that, as stated previously, is true of the Christian Church as well.
In conclusion all I am concerned with is how the general public, mankind, act to either support the British Democracy or not, how they live, how they following the path of greed and evil pursuit, or not. Religions do not concern me as I do not belong to one, but try and understand all as a Child of God privately worshiping him directly and working towards implementing my life according to his laws.
To fear other religions is a severe weakness, and remember it has caused mass hysteria before in this country alone with countless innocent victims suffering as a result. Wars, public burning, hangings, and other gruesome events have marred our history. Do not let this happen again for the sake of our children, grandchildren, and those to come. God bless us. Believe in him fully and you will have no fear.
:) Lizzie you are very nice but I wish you lived in a different environment.. And I dont know what copy you read , try to find another one and read this carefully :-X :y
-
Well I'm glad I'm an ATHEIST and don't believe in the brain washing relegions just object to their evil practices.
The bible is just a library of books with some great stories, I guess the koran is the same load of crap I would happily burn both. Then we'll see the primitive reactions of those you seem to welcome and not worry about. The argument may be about the teachings of the real Islam being good, the trouble is those that believe that do not speak out against the radical clerics who preach jihad on the the infidel, I.E us. They are an insular society in out midst. BE WARNED I don't think you suit a burka ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D
My views on immigration are above we got ourselves into this mess time we put a stop to it. I agree with Johnny English :y
:y
and sooner than you expect you will see that this community will decide who will be your next prime minister :-\
and politicians will try every way to take their votes :(
I know about an informal statistics I couldn't believe my eyes when looking details in point of birth rating and numbers of children at elementary school and kindergarten so I must say if you aren't careful now will have serious issues in the close future. If I wanted to compose exactly I'd say: in time of your child or grandchild... :( All of my respect for ideas that sound really good eg freedom, equality and so on but unfortunately reality is different namely these ideas nowadays went to a simple mask can be worn by anybody who have enough money and have special goals never shared with us simple people. Immigration is not from devil but number of immigrants have to be limited strictly they must give up his own culture included language, family relations, business interests and so on. No other way for them to be assimilated completely. If somebody really want to go a really Briton and want much better life for children of theirs own then easy stuff to do. If they have special reasons to be in England they'll never give up the things mentioned above. And at this point I finished off as this discussion seems endless ... :) in this thread I had posted much more than my English knowledge would have allowed me... :D
thx for reading
Laszlo, Hungary :y
:) :) :)
-
Well I'm glad I'm an ATHEIST and don't believe in the brain washing relegions just object to their evil practices.
The bible is just a library of books with some great stories, I guess the koran is the same load of crap I would happily burn both. Then we'll see the primitive reactions of those you seem to welcome and not worry about. The argument may be about the teachings of the real Islam being good, the trouble is those that believe that do not speak out against the radical clerics who preach jihad on the the infidel, I.E us. They are an insular society in out midst. BE WARNED I don't think you suit a burka ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D
My views on immigration are above we got ourselves into this mess time we put a stop to it. I agree with Johnny English :y
:y
and sooner than you expect you will see that this community will decide who will be your next prime minister :-\
and politicians will try every way to take their votes :(
I know about an informal statistics I couldn't believe my eyes when looking details in point of birth rating and numbers of children at elementary school and kindergarten so I must say if you aren't careful now will have serious issues in the close future. If I wanted to compose exactly I'd say: in time of your child or grandchild... :( All of my respect for ideas that sound really good eg freedom, equality and so on but unfortunately reality is different namely these ideas nowadays went to a simple mask can be worn by anybody who have enough money and have special goals never shared with us simple people. Immigration is not from devil but number of immigrants have to be limited strictly they must give up his own culture included language, family relations, business interests and so on. No other way for them to be assimilated completely. If somebody really want to go a really Briton and want much better life for children of theirs own then easy stuff to do. If they have special reasons to be in England they'll never give up the things mentioned above. And at this point I finished off as this discussion seems endless ... :) in this thread I had posted much more than my English knowledge would have allowed me... :D
thx for reading
Laszlo, Hungary :y
:) :) :)
:) :y :y :y
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Quote from Cem:
:) Lizzie you are very nice but I wish you lived in a different environment.. And I dont know what copy you read , try to find another one and read this carefully :-X :y
[/quote]
Thanks as always for your opinion Cem which I highly respect, but I know history and what it has taught us about ourselves. The warnings from history are there, and the last thing mankind (or man to be precise) needs now is to spread suspicion, hate and scaremongering over the delicate subject of immigration and / or religion / beliefs.
I do not know what experiences the Turkish people can call on from their history, apart from the Otterman era, but British history, and that of other European nations, is littered with hate, suspicion, mass murder / genocide in the extreme and full bloody destructive war, just over what others believe or not believe, which has often been over religion or / and beliefs. That is why I do not personally belong to an organised religion, which can be highly poiticalized, and dictatorial causing much human conflict.
But Cem, please feel free to highlight what you think is wrong in my writings as I believe NO ONE but God has all, if any, of the answers and his decision in the end will be final. :y
As my final comment I would stress, as my father did as a serving Royal Naval officer during the Cold War. it is "far better to be red than dead". In others words do not shed blood and die fighting the impossible. What will be will be, and fate will decide. I lived through most of the Cold War and I would sooner had lived in a Communist state than see the World obliterated. That, thank God, of course never happened, but the lesson learnt during that time is still relevant in it's own way. Jesus did strongly preach the message "turn the other cheek", and that is a prime Christine value as he knew that God will reward the humble, meek, and tolerant. 8) 8)
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The truth is that couples need to have on average two to three children. No immigration is then required. Some countries have accepted that low birth rates will diminish their populations, but they don't want mass migration. This applies to Japan where there has been a public debate.
Three will then lead to a slight increase in the population for each generation, bearing in mind that 10% of couples have fertility problems and another 10% have no maternal instincts which should be respected and there is also an attrition rate.
We need to have a slightly increasing population otherwise our welfare scheme will collapse, where it has the structure of a Ponzi scheme. It has no money, so the money from new entrants and current contributors, have to payout all bills to current, past and non contributors. While new entrants and current contributors equals or exceeds payouts is it viable, currently it is not, hence the UK deficit. If something isn't sustainable it won't, hence at some point it will collapse. Blame Lloyd-George and Attlee for its construction.
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Lizzie, freak history it is tomorrow you should worry about >:( >:(
P.S Prove that your god exists ::)
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Lizzie, freak history it is tomorrow you should worry about >:( >:(
P.S Prove that your god exists ::)
The very biggest ponzi schemes EVER. Even Darren Brown would be proud of religion ;D ;D ;D
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Lizzie, freak history it is tomorrow you should worry about >:( >:(
P.S Prove that your god exists ::)
I KNOW he/she does, and that is enough for me Cleggy ;)
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Question: What causes more wars, more suffering(esp to women) and more favouritism/bigotry than anything else in the world?
Answers on a postcard please.
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Question: What causes more wars, more suffering(esp to women) and more favouritism/bigotry than anything else in the world?
Answers on a postcard please.
Men?
;D
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Lizzie, freak history it is tomorrow you should worry about >:( >:(
P.S Prove that your god exists ::)
I KNOW he/she does, and that is enough for me Cleggy ;)
Well! when you meet him please come back and tell the rest of us, and explain why he has made more freak ups than a labour government ;) ;) ;D
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Didn't god flood the world and get Noah to build an ark because he thought he'd cocked up and needed to start again?
Well....I think it's long overdue this time....
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I was not going to comment on religion as like Cleggy, I am an Atheist.
Swmbo has got children in need on the box, and I turned round from here when they did a bit on a little girl with cancer on the liver. Poor mite, and all others who suffer.
So we are Gods children are we. ??? Well, all I can say is I hope I treat my children better than your God treats his !!!!!!!!!
Nuff said......you go your way, I'll go mine :y
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I don't like to insult or belittle peoples religious beliefs, but I just cannot understand how otherwise intelligent folk buy into a theory without basis.
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it does give comfort to a lot of people STMO.... :y
can't say i understand it though
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Steve, I did not intend to belittle other religions.....people may choose whatever.
I stated my point of view, which I came to by thinking about all the wars, hunger, illnesses, suffering to humans, the billions of savage deaths, even to animals etc, etc in the world. :(
When I think of how some of my family, now, and in the past have suffered, and died, I feel there is only one option for me :y
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Absolutely 1000% with you Tony,I know it's a cliche,but it's true that throughout history religion has played a major part in conficts in all races and continues to do so,like you I do not believe in any form of religion and never will!
The bible is there for the gullable and good luck to them,but on a personal basis I have elected not to accept what I perceive to be a con with absolutely no evidence to prove the existence of any higher being ::)
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Didn't god flood the world and get Noah to build an ark because he thought he'd cocked up and needed to start again?
Well....I think it's long overdue this time....
I think he had a go this summer.... ::)
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The two most aggressive religions brands are Christian and Muslim. Most other brands are fairly to very passive.
Israel has big problems with fundamental radical Jews.
The Christian religion 500 years after the split still causes major problems, particularly in Scotland and Ireland, but on the whole, both sides throughout the UK tends to be us and them
The Muslim religion has several tribal factions, who are quite happy to kill and maim each other.
Christian and Muslim turf wars tend to be very bloody. Watch what happens in Egypt and how many Christian refugees will we take? ::) ::) ::)
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Didn't god flood the world and get Noah to build an ark because he thought he'd cocked up and needed to start again?
Well....I think it's long overdue this time....
Don't worry he has got the Green religion working for him this time to reduce CO2 and deepen the current ice age. Better stock up on 10,000 years of food, fuel and plenty of sets of thermals. :o :o :o :o
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Steve, I did not intend to belittle other religions.....people may choose whatever.
I stated my point of view, which I came to by thinking about all the wars, hunger, illnesses, suffering to humans, the billions of savage deaths, even to animals etc, etc in the world. :(
When I think of how some of my family, now, and in the past have suffered, and died, I feel there is only one option for me :y
No sleight was intended, I was generalising. I have been known to get quite angry/frusrated about it, but you can't have a logical discussion when faced with 'faith'.
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It's actually not a question of faith at all. Faith is personal and spiritual.
Although it may seem, on the surface, that faith causes wars/unrest, the truth is somewhat more complex. Humans have an in-built herd instinct and a need to feel secure as part of a wider group. Often, religion is a handy tag, but dig deeper and you'll often find that many of those who claim to be religious have little if no concept of the detail of the faith to which they apparently adhere.
In reality, many humans seek like-minded souls for security. This can often be, at a local level, support for a football team . You only need to look at Rangers and Celtic to see this at work. However, it's got sod all to do with faith. There are just as many "local derby" matches, at which the enmity between fans cannot be attributed to faith. Equally, the violence in the Uk in the 1950s between Mods and Rockers was between groups who felt that their gangs (= their security) was being threatened by others.
From a local to national level, we can see that neither WWW1 or WW2 was instigated through religious rivalry. In the case of the former, the leaders of Serbs and the Austro-Hungarians were rivals for power. In WW2, Hitler actually tried to sideline religion and merely used the danger to the security of the Arian race posed by gypsies and Jews to bind people together in the fight to maintain their apparent security.
What I am saying, albeit in a late-night long-winded way, is that blaming religion as a cause of strife is a cop-out. Even if there were no organised religions or faiths, humans would still find a way to bind themselves in groups and fight to protect their groups from perceived threats from other groups, however notional/imaginary.
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As Nick said .. but in a simpler way ... tribes fight for land/power/supremacy/women .... and "nations" or even "religions" are just very large "tribes"
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Humans are violent territorial animals. As this is instinctive along with banding together into groups for mutual protection, like packs or herd of animals and shoals of fish, it will never change.
The most dangerous animal to man is man.
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Humans are violent territorial animals. As this is instinctive along with banding together into groups for mutual protection, like packs or herd of animals and shoals of fish, it will never change.
The most dangerous animal to man is man.
Yes...well put.
But....ponder this.....would we be in Afghanistan now if it wasn't for the politicians???? Would we have been involved in other conflicts around the world if not for politicians. Would the ordinary man in the street (or soldier) say...I don't agree with that, I am off to Afghanistan....I personally think not ;)
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What happens in other countries is none of our business, just let them get on with it and we'll pick up the pieces.
Why should our young die in an allah forsaken country when we can't ( for a reason that escapes me) destroy the poppies that produce the opium whose sale to the west funds the terrorism ETC ETC.
Pull our boys out now, for once I agree with a liberal, Paddy Asdown and we've lost, save our boys lives from the so callled afghani police force and destroy the neandertals with drones.
Politicians don't have a clue, they care about themselves END OF >:( >:(
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What happens in other countries is none of our business, just let them get on with it and we'll pick up the pieces.
Why should our young die in an allah forsaken country when we can't ( for a reason that escapes me) destroy the poppies that produce the opium whose sale to the west funds the terrorism ETC ETC.
Pull our boys out now, for once I agree with a liberal, Paddy Asdown and we've lost, save our boys lives from the so callled afghani police force and destroy the neandertals with drones.
Politicians don't have a clue, they care about themselves END OF >:( >:(
:y :y :y :y :y :y :y :y :y :y :y :y
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What happens in other countries is none of our business, just let them get on with it and we'll pick up the pieces.
Why should our young die in an allah forsaken country when we can't ( for a reason that escapes me) destroy the poppies that produce the opium whose sale to the west funds the terrorism ETC ETC.
Pull our boys out now, for once I agree with a liberal, Paddy Asdown and we've lost, save our boys lives from the so callled afghani police force and destroy the neandertals with drones.
Politicians don't have a clue, they care about themselves END OF >:( >:(
United Nations mandate (under which we operate) SPECIFICALLY banned the destruction of drug related crops. :(
The "war" in Afghanistan is about power, the Taliban want power, mainly to control the drug crop as that what makes them money - (they also like power for its own ends .. which is why they target womens rights) .... many of us have always said the fastest way to end the afghan problem is with a few armoured ploughs and lawn mowers ...... simply chop down the poppiies just before harvest... remove the source of income/power ... but the UN prohibit it .. :(
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The UN is a useless entity everyone else ignores it why don't we???
Spray the bloody place with Sodium Chlorate and we'll face the consequence later. :y :y
The whole world as gone crazy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwzsameAdLs
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The UN is a useless entity everyone else ignores it why don't we???
Spray the bloody place with Sodium Chlorate and we'll face the consequence later. :y :y
Fortunately, for you, me, and a few million others, the UK (and many other countries) actually believe in the rule of law, it sometimes rankles (Abu Qutada), it often annoys (Welfare Payments), it causes massive sorrow (Afghanistan), but..... at the end of the day .. it actually protects us from an awful lot worse, and many millions of people have given their lives to uphold the simple, but often misquoted ... rule of law
Believe me .. we would be in a far worse place without it.
-
Do what's right, not what the law or POLITICS dictates, :y
-
Might this just be the Guardian up to its old tricks again? Who reads that crappy bit of asswipe anyway? Its only a civil servants rag for advertising jobs within that 'gold plated and pension protected service' anyway.
;) Bit of luck and the Bulgarians and Romanians, plus any other beggars, all might decide that this land of easy pickings is not for them due to the bad weather and go where its sunny :D NOT, cos then they would not have access to our giveaway social funds and benefits for immigrants (before our native British citizen) system.
Teresa May should be the first to export herself to them PERMANENTLY, along with any other wally who thinks as she does...... >:(
Makes me want to vote for the BNP......or is UKIP really any good?
Blood pressuire up again now so thanks for starting this thread.................. ;)
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Might this just be the Guardian up to its old tricks again? Who reads that crappy bit of asswipe anyway? Its only a civil servants rag for advertising jobs within that 'gold plated and pension protected service' anyway.
;) Bit of luck and the Bulgarians and Romanians, plus any other beggars, all might decide that this land of easy pickings is not for them due to the bad weather and go where its sunny :D NOT, cos then they would not have access to our giveaway social funds and benefits for immigrants (before our native British citizen) system.
Teresa May should be the first to export herself to them PERMANENTLY, along with any other wally who thinks as she does...... >:(
Makes me want to vote for the BNP......or is UKIP really any good?
Blood pressuire up again now so thanks for starting this thread.................. ;)
Bionic be careful, these are my neighbour countries and you cant classify all of them as beggars.. if yes same can be said for every country >:( >:( >:( remember every country in the world send immigrants to everywhere >:(
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The UN is a useless entity everyone else ignores it why don't we???
Spray the bloody place with Sodium Chlorate and we'll face the consequence later. :y :y
Fortunately, for you, me, and a few million others, the UK (and many other countries) actually believe in the rule of law, it sometimes rankles (Abu Qutada), it often annoys (Welfare Payments), it causes massive sorrow (Afghanistan), but..... at the end of the day .. it actually protects us from an awful lot worse, and many millions of people have given their lives to uphold the simple, but often misquoted ... rule of law
Believe me .. we would be in a far worse place without it.
Whilst I totally agree with you I'm afraid others don't play with a straight bat, even those close to home like France. The poppy fields should and must be totally destroyed forever :y :y
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The UN is a useless entity everyone else ignores it why don't we???
Spray the bloody place with Sodium Chlorate and we'll face the consequence later. :y :y
Fortunately, for you, me, and a few million others, the UK (and many other countries) actually believe in the rule of law, it sometimes rankles (Abu Qutada), it often annoys (Welfare Payments), it causes massive sorrow (Afghanistan), but..... at the end of the day .. it actually protects us from an awful lot worse, and many millions of people have given their lives to uphold the simple, but often misquoted ... rule of law
Believe me .. we would be in a far worse place without it.
definitely :y
-
The UN is a useless entity everyone else ignores it why don't we???
Spray the bloody place with Sodium Chlorate and we'll face the consequence later. :y :y
Fortunately, for you, me, and a few million others, the UK (and many other countries) actually believe in the rule of law, it sometimes rankles (Abu Qutada), it often annoys (Welfare Payments), it causes massive sorrow (Afghanistan), but..... at the end of the day .. it actually protects us from an awful lot worse, and many millions of people have given their lives to uphold the simple, but often misquoted ... rule of law
Believe me .. we would be in a far worse place without it.
Absolutely right Eastwood :y :y :y :y :y
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Humans are violent territorial animals. As this is instinctive along with banding together into groups for mutual protection, like packs or herd of animals and shoals of fish, it will never change.
The most dangerous animal to man is man.
Ah, now Rods2 you have hit on the prime problem; man's natural state. :y :y :y
Have you read Leviathan, Penguin Books, first published 1651, by the philosopher Thomas Hobbs (1588-1679)? It, in my opinion, correctly summarizes, chapter 13, page 185-188, mans weakness for "warre", and also being in a constant state of "warre", being his natural determination. The book explains far more, but this particular section hits on the main issue. 8)
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It's actually not a question of faith at all. Faith is personal and spiritual.
Although it may seem, on the surface, that faith causes wars/unrest, the truth is somewhat more complex. Humans have an in-built herd instinct and a need to feel secure as part of a wider group. Often, religion is a handy tag, but dig deeper and you'll often find that many of those who claim to be religious have little if no concept of the detail of the faith to which they apparently adhere.
In reality, many humans seek like-minded souls for security. This can often be, at a local level, support for a football team . You only need to look at Rangers and Celtic to see this at work. However, it's got sod all to do with faith. There are just as many "local derby" matches, at which the enmity between fans cannot be attributed to faith. Equally, the violence in the Uk in the 1950s between Mods and Rockers was between groups who felt that their gangs (= their security) was being threatened by others.
From a local to national level, we can see that neither WWW1 or WW2 was instigated through religious rivalry. In the case of the former, the leaders of Serbs and the Austro-Hungarians were rivals for power. In WW2, Hitler actually tried to sideline religion and merely used the danger to the security of the Arian race posed by gypsies and Jews to bind people together in the fight to maintain their apparent security.
What I am saying, albeit in a late-night long-winded way, is that blaming religion as a cause of strife is a cop-out. Even if there were no organised religions or faiths, humans would still find a way to bind themselves in groups and fight to protect their groups from perceived threats from other groups, however notional/imaginary.
Exactly right Nick :y :y :y :y :y :y
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The UN is a useless entity everyone else ignores it why don't we???
Spray the bloody place with Sodium Chlorate and we'll face the consequence later. :y :y
Fortunately, for you, me, and a few million others, the UK (and many other countries) actually believe in the rule of law, it sometimes rankles (Abu Qutada), it often annoys (Welfare Payments), it causes massive sorrow (Afghanistan), but..... at the end of the day .. it actually protects us from an awful lot worse, and many millions of people have given their lives to uphold the simple, but often misquoted ... rule of law
Believe me .. we would be in a far worse place without it.
Absolutely right Eastwood :y :y :y :y :y
;D ;D ;D :y
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Humans are violent territorial animals. As this is instinctive along with banding together into groups for mutual protection, like packs or herd of animals and shoals of fish, it will never change.
The most dangerous animal to man is man.
Ah, now Rods2 you have hit on the prime problem; man's natural state. :y :y :y
Have you read Leviathan, Penguin Books, first published 1651, by the philosopher Thomas Hobbs (1588-1679)? It, in my opinion, correctly summarizes, chapter 13, page 185-188, mans weakness for "warre", and also being in a constant state of "warre", being his natural determination. The book explains far more, but this particular section hits on the main issue. 8)
Thanks, for that reference as I haven't read his book, but I will now do so, probably over Christmas. I very good at skim reading, but you can't do that with old English, so it will take longer than normal. For those interested where the book is copyright free, this is the link:
http://manybooks.net/titles/hobbesthetext02lvthn10.html (http://manybooks.net/titles/hobbesthetext02lvthn10.html)
"From Equality Proceeds Diffidence From this equality of ability, ariseth equality of hope in the attaining of
our Ends. And therefore if any two men desire the same thing, which neverthelesse they cannot both enjoy,
they become enemies; and in the way to their End, (which is principally their owne conservation, and
sometimes their delectation only,) endeavour to destroy, or subdue one an other. And from hence it comes to
passe, that where an Invader hath no more to feare, than an other mans single power; if one plant, sow, build,
or possesse a convenient Seat, others may probably be expected to come prepared with forces united, to
dispossesse, and deprive him, not only of the fruit of his labour, but also of his life, or liberty. And the Invader
again is in the like danger of another."
Very well put in the paragraph above. I also like how Science was viewed at the time in this sentence: "setting aside the arts grounded upon words, and especially that skill of proceeding upon generall, and infallible rules, called Science; which very few have, and but in few things; as being not a native faculty, born with us; nor attained, (as Prudence,) while we look after somewhat els". Where Science is: "infallible rules" - this is the first time I have seen it summed up so well in 2 words or you could sum up scientific research as: "The search for infallible rules". :y :y :y :y
If you want a very good philosophical book on the writing of military history and the mechanics of battles through the analysis of a number of famous ones, I recommend John Keegan's book "The Face of Battle". One of my hobbies is history particularly 20th century military history.
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I am very pleased Rods2 you are interested in that, and you are right about reading olde English , but you do get used to it ;)
Apart from the section you quote, this is the one that really sets out Thomas Hobbes general belief, and his main topic of mankind needing a central power to control mans desires:
As Thomas Hobbes rightly summed up:
"Hereby it is manifest , that during the time men live without common Power to keep them all in awe, they are in a condition which is called Warre; and such a warre, as is of every man, against every man. For WARRE , consisteth not in Battell onely, or the act of fighting; but in a tract of time, wherein the Will to contend by Battell is sufficiently known: and therefore the notion of Time, is to be considered in the nature of Warre; as it is in the nature of Weather. For as the nature of Foul weather , lyeth not in a showre or two of rain; but in an an inclination thereto of many dayes together: So the nature of War, consisteth not in actual fighting: but in the known disposition thereto, during all the time there is no assurance to the contrary. All other time is PEACE."
Hobbes, T. Leviathan pp. 185, 186 Penguin (1651)
Overall a warning from history you could say; May we all work together in the interests of mankind.
Hobbes was greatly influenced scientifically by Galileo, and he understand the principle of atoms streaming from what he considered the centre of the universe, or to us the "big bang". He appreciated how the pure movement of ourselves and the objects around us could be deflected and change outcomes. :D
Thomas also met Bacon, giving him further scientific prospective, also discussing philosophy with other supporters of the enlightenment Mersernne, Descartes and Gassendi (scientific enlightenment) whilst in exile in Paris.
A great man, well ahead of his time. :y :y 8)