Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Lizzie_Zoom on 23 November 2012, 19:00:04
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Now in China they do things rather differently if you protest about a national building project, like trying to stop a road being built!
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/Houseinroad.jpg)
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breaking-news/offbeat/road-built-round-home-in-china-16241576.html
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o
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wow. :o
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Beats the farm between carriage ways of M62 hands down!!
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Even Swampy of Newbury fame could not have stopped this. If he had tried the road would have been built on top of him! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
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We need that kind of thinking for Heathrow's 3rd Runway :y
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We need that kind of thinking for Heathrow's 3rd Runway :y
What Swampy or a new house? :P ;D ;D ;D ;D
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We need that kind of thinking for Heathrow's 3rd Runway :y
Yes, and the HS2 rail link tunnie :D :D ;)
Still, the way the Coalition is thinking, speeded up planning processes will become the norm. However I do not think we will match the Chinese practice! ::) ::) ;D ;D
Only a communist or national socialist state could do that ;)
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We need that kind of thinking for Heathrow's 3rd Runway :y
Yes, and the HS2 rail link tunnie :D :D ;)
Still, the way the Coalition is thinking, speeded up planning processes will become the norm. However I do not think we will match the Chinese practice! ::) ::) ;D ;D
Only a communist or national socialist state could do that ;)
"Coalition is thinking.........". No.
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We need that kind of thinking for Heathrow's 3rd Runway :y
Yes, and the HS2 rail link tunnie :D :D ;)
Still, the way the Coalition is thinking, speeded up planning processes will become the norm. However I do not think we will match the Chinese practice! ::) ::) ;D ;D
Only a communist or national socialist state could do that ;)
"Coalition is thinking.........". No.
You pessimist Steve!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
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Beats the farm between carriage ways of M62 hands down!!
Yep but think this was a better solution
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTkI_oz2bCggC-LJry9g2TSX9pcOnGTinmhWXirIxnGpd3-2VIJ1Q)
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Beats the farm between carriage ways of M62 hands down!!
Yep but think this was a better solution
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTkI_oz2bCggC-LJry9g2TSX9pcOnGTinmhWXirIxnGpd3-2VIJ1Q)
A lot of people think it's like that because he wouldn't sell up. Not so.
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We need that kind of thinking for Heathrow's 3rd Runway :y
Yes, and the HS2 rail link tunnie :D :D ;)
Still, the way the Coalition is thinking, speeded up planning processes will become the norm. However I do not think we will match the Chinese practice! ::) ::) ;D ;D
Only a communist or national socialist state could do that ;)
Expensive, useless , dead duck. Even if it was built it doesn't go anywhere and would only be as fast as the existing lines when all the interminable delays that plague Britains railways are in play as they inevitably will be. Britain shouldk have had high speed trains 20 years ago. Too late now.
Third runway at Heathrow. Britain needed something but our politicians are incapable of grasping the nettel and making a decision. How the hell do the movers and shakers get from China or Brazil to Britain when we have such a dearth of routes. Via Paris or Amsterdam?. Why get on yet another plane to make a deal. Might as well do it with a Frenchy instead.
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Beats the farm between carriage ways of M62 hands down!!
Yep but think this was a better solution
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTkI_oz2bCggC-LJry9g2TSX9pcOnGTinmhWXirIxnGpd3-2VIJ1Q)
A lot of people think it's like that because he wouldn't sell up. Not so.
Stott Hall Farm
Stott Hall Farm, viewed from Moorland above westbound carriageway
Stott Hall Farm (53.641599°N 1.952222°W) is an 18th century farm on Windy Hill, situated between the two carriageways of the motorway between junctions 22 and 23.[22][33][34] The road forks around the farm for engineering reasons owing to the surrounding area's geology, though a local myth persists that the road had to be split because the owners refused to sell the land during its construction.[22] Due to its remoteness in the Pennines, the farm is often nicknamed the Little House on the Prairie, it is now known countrywide to lorry drivers using CB radio by this name and is even referred to as such by Sally Boazman, BBC Radio 2's traffic reporter. The farm is now separated from the motorway by crash barriers and a high fence to keep livestock in and drivers out, after some stranded motorists attempted to get aid when broken down.[22][35] The farm, which was occupied by Ken and Beth Wild at the time of the motorway's opening,[33] is now farmed by Paul Thorp.[22] It is one of the ten best-known sights from the motorway network[36] and one of the best-known sights in West Yorkshire.[35] The farm was used as a location for an early episode of ITV drama series Where the Heart Is and was the subject of a short documentary film.[37]
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Now in China they do things rather differently if you protest about a national building project, like trying to stop a road being built!
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/Houseinroad.jpg)
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breaking-news/offbeat/road-built-round-home-in-china-16241576.html
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Yes they absolutely do on other way...I've been to China for a two weeks job and it had been quite exciting when I was looking as Chinese practice Thai Chi and took huge breath from the air full of exhausted smoke... :o
Beats the farm between carriage ways of M62 hands down!!
Yep but think this was a better solution
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTkI_oz2bCggC-LJry9g2TSX9pcOnGTinmhWXirIxnGpd3-2VIJ1Q)
...like owners on here... ;D
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Beats the farm between carriage ways of M62 hands down!!
Yep but think this was a better solution
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTkI_oz2bCggC-LJry9g2TSX9pcOnGTinmhWXirIxnGpd3-2VIJ1Q)
A lot of people think it's like that because he wouldn't sell up. Not so.
Stott Hall Farm
Stott Hall Farm, viewed from Moorland above westbound carriageway
Stott Hall Farm (53.641599°N 1.952222°W) is an 18th century farm on Windy Hill, situated between the two carriageways of the motorway between junctions 22 and 23.[22][33][34] The road forks around the farm for engineering reasons owing to the surrounding area's geology, though a local myth persists that the road had to be split because the owners refused to sell the land during its construction.[22] Due to its remoteness in the Pennines, the farm is often nicknamed the Little House on the Prairie, it is now known countrywide to lorry drivers using CB radio by this name and is even referred to as such by Sally Boazman, BBC Radio 2's traffic reporter. The farm is now separated from the motorway by crash barriers and a high fence to keep livestock in and drivers out, after some stranded motorists attempted to get aid when broken down.[22][35] The farm, which was occupied by Ken and Beth Wild at the time of the motorway's opening,[33] is now farmed by Paul Thorp.[22] It is one of the ten best-known sights from the motorway network[36] and one of the best-known sights in West Yorkshire.[35] The farm was used as a location for an early episode of ITV drama series Where the Heart Is and was the subject of a short documentary film.[37]
This is just over the hill from me and swmbo and I remember news on "Look North" with film of the guy hanging out the window with a shot gun stopping them from building. This is confusing
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We need that kind of thinking for Heathrow's 3rd Runway :y
Yes, and the HS2 rail link tunnie :D :D ;)
Still, the way the Coalition is thinking, speeded up planning processes will become the norm. However I do not think we will match the Chinese practice! ::) ::) ;D ;D
Only a communist or national socialist state could do that ;)
is that right lizzie??...you taken a trip up the A20 at sidcup.....they did that to a person up there who would'nt sell so they built the main dual carrigeway into london around his £3.5 millon house 8)
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We need that kind of thinking for Heathrow's 3rd Runway :y
Yes, and the HS2 rail link tunnie :D :D ;)
Still, the way the Coalition is thinking, speeded up planning processes will become the norm. However I do not think we will match the Chinese practice! ::) ::) ;D ;D
Only a communist or national socialist state could do that ;)
is that right lizzie??...you taken a trip up the A20 at sidcup.....they did that to a person up there who would'nt sell so they built the main dual carrigeway into london around his £3.5 millon house 8)
Ah, that's the clue TAM!
He is rich, so in our democratic capitalist system money talks. Instead of bulldozing the house as they would in the case of you and I, the multi-millionaire just got his cheque book out!! ::) ::) ;)
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Beats the farm between carriage ways of M62 hands down!!
We owned a pub in Outlane when they built the M62 at Junction 23, and if I remember correctly the reason for splitting the carriage way was down to the geology. The chap who owned the farm at the time was offered the going rate for his property but refused it so the contractors, French, had to build underpasses for him to access his land on either side of the motorway.
He was a bit of an eccentric and put loud speakers on his roof blasting the navvies with classical music all day. ;D ;D
There was a TV programme about the people who farm there now and the problems they have with burglary, lorries crashing through the barriers, and people knocking on their door at all hours for water or the telephone was ridiculous. They were used to the noise tho' ;) ;D
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have none of you never heard of a compulsory purchase order?
any "they wouldn't sell" myths are just that, urban legends with little basis in fact...
we were fairly heavily involved in the (successful-ish) campaign to reroute the M40 extension across Otmoor....
the only way we found (quite successfully) to foil them, was for the land owners to divide fields in to hundreds of smaller plots and sell them off at nominal cost to people scattered all around the world.... and as many of them as possible notifying the D.O.T of their intention to take it to court.... making the cost of compulsory purchasing greater than the cost of re-routing....
D.O.T took the objection of D.O.E and tore it up..... the original route wiped out areas of both scientific importance (rare species habitat) economic importance (farmed land) , historic importance (WW2 "fake oxford" for the german bombers ) and natural beauty....
only making it economically unviable, and generating huge public awareness and objections at every enquiry and planning stage.... made it less attractive to the road builders.....
so, regrettably, it doesn't take a facist or marxist , or mauist or communist state to do that.....
(well, i guess the 80's tory government might have been called facist by many ;) )
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Yes, and the HS2 rail link tunnie :D :D ;)
Having been to the consultations - which are more than just a little bias - I can confirm even their own business case does not add up, even if (it won't) phase 2 ever gets built.
I ended up speaking to one of the senior HS2 Ltd guys, and he admitted that they were only showing the figures and plans that showed it in the best light possible... ...and yet everyone was still walking out thinking what a colossal waste of money this would be.
HS2's own budgets for Phase 1 are all over the place. At the consultation, the best figure (remember, they are trying to paint it in a good light) was £23bn. When quizzed if this was US billion or UK billion, they wouldn't comment. The financial "benefit" is based purely on the fact that any train travel time is unproductive. IME, people are still working when on trains, either laptops, pen and paper, or conference calls.
If these were the people who were pitching to the Government, then I think the Government based their decisions on purposely misleading info.
Even by HS2 Ltd's own figures, the journey savings from Glasgow/Edinburgh (connecting Scotland was the Tories plan in opposition) shaves a maximum of 20-30 mins off a 4+hr trip. Is it worth the cost?
The fares are supposed to be the same as the current fares, that is an HS2 commitment according to the consultation. Thats going to cause the existing franchises - the ones that ackowledge and serve customers outside of London and Litchfield - more hardship, potentially making them unviable.
// My own political views on this, cost/benefit aside, are pretty neutral. I drive a pair of 3+ litre Omegas, so am not a greenie. And HS2 doesn't come close enough to me to really affect me, other than maybe road closures during construction.
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Not dismissing the factors of cost, and doubts about "time saving", it is important with this scheme to view it on a bigger European scale.
The chance to link, through the HS1 line, onto the HS2 the whole of Europe with a fast rail line is very important. It will suck business into GB up to the North, with a hope that the North will be a favoured area to live for jobs and prospects instead of the overcrowded SE / South / SW of England. In due course Scotland will be included, but granted this will be a long term aim.
The long term benefits on European terms cannot be underestimated, along with just having greater capacity on our domestic rail lines. With the ever increasing population of this country we cannot continue to think that in 50 years time we can rely on motor transport. It will be a vastly different situation by then, and that is why now we must think ahead and build this line by about 25 years time to be prepared and improve out transport infrastructure.
Never forget of course that the Victorians built the vast majority of our existing rail system in the important years of the 1840s. Many of these lines were always very expensive to build, and never generated a profit, but fed the overall rail system that eventually the Big Four, after January 1st 1923. made a profit on. Although those profits would decline significantly on the London & North Eastern Railway due to the loss of coal and steel traffic in the 1930s.
Railways therefore must be always viewed in the long term, with not necessarily profits produced for individual lines. It is the overall effect that is crucial, that cannot be always seen in accounts of a railway. Business must always make a profit, but railways now rarely do and need Government subsidy to generate business / national advantages elsewhere, let alone providing a crucial transport link for the people; adding up to a service.
The one big problem I have got with HS2 is the idea it should be terminated at St. Pancras instead of a direct run on to the HS1 and Europe. This WILL be a flaw in my view. ;)
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see i dont understand why we need a faster rail line or more runways.the powers that be say we need it or trade will suffer but i thought more and more stuff was being done over the phone will conference calls and the like,and with the www.etc but prehaps theres something iam missing.
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Beats the farm between carriage ways of M62 hands down!!
We owned a pub in Outlane when they built the M62 at Junction 23, and if I remember correctly the reason for splitting the carriage way was down to the geology. The chap who owned the farm at the time was offered the going rate for his property but refused it so the contractors, French, had to build underpasses for him to access his land on either side of the motorway.
He was a bit of an eccentric and put loud speakers on his roof blasting the navvies with classical music all day. ;D ;D
There was a TV programme about the people who farm there now and the problems they have with burglary, lorries crashing through the barriers, and people knocking on their door at all hours for water or the telephone was ridiculous. They were used to the noise tho' ;) ;D
Well almost correct, the geology was the reason for the motorway having divided carriageways, so never any need to compulsory purchase the farm. :y
The guy playing the music was a fact but probably someone else who objected to losing his property. :y
It was more than forty years ago ::) ::) ::) It's a age thing :D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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as far as i'm concerned , unless it has proper steam engines on it, it's a waste of time and money..... ;)
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as far as i'm concerned , unless it has proper steam engines on it, it's a waste of time and money..... ;)
It's a waste of time and money whatever runs on it, saving 15 minutes when travelling from Brum to the Smoke, when it runs to schedule WTF :o ;) ;D
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LZ - I hear what you are saying, BUT!
Phase 2 is unlikely to ever get built. Even HS2 Ltd accept that Phase 1 is the endgame.
A gauge has not yet been determined for HS2 Phase 1, although (at the time of consultation) it was going to be unique, preventing it from running on other lines, HS1 and crossrail included. It also was unlikely to run on the rails beyond Litchfield, which kind of makes the "non stop from Mancs" etc a bit of a porkie, affecting the non-stop times they claim. There was talk of a hybrid system, but BR have a poor record in getting these things to work.
I asked, to save development costs, as it was to be a different gauge to UK, why they didn't go for an off-the-shelf gauge from one of the European ones, but it wasn't "suitable", with no further reasoning/explanation.
Lets assume it will be 4 years late, not unreasonable, so 2030. Business meetings will likely be a thing of the past, as technology takes over. Most office based workers will become home workers. Those needing to travel regularly will be those needing to be in a specific location to do their job - factory workers, retail workers (if retail still exists), nurses and so on. These are the people who won't be able to afford to use the service. Although if you look at HS2 specifically, unless to live in central Brum, or in London, and work in the other, its actually of no use whatsoever. WCML and Chiltern provide a much more useful service by stopping at locations on route. And yet, provide services that aren't that much longer timewise (and thats assuming you live at one terminus, and work at the other).
HS2 will not be used for freight. Its design will prohibit it anyway.
As to railways making a profit, they never will. Even now, all fares are sibsidised by around 50% by those of use who don't/can't use the railways. HS2 will be similar (or need even more subsidy), not including the cost of building, yet will be usable by even fewer people.
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The lessons have not been learned from HS1. Tickets for "High Speed" services are around 25% higher than normal services, passenger numbers are lower than expected:
http://www.nce.co.uk/news/transport/high-speed-1-underwhelming-passenger-numbers-exposed-taxpayer-to-debt-risk/8628492.article (http://www.nce.co.uk/news/transport/high-speed-1-underwhelming-passenger-numbers-exposed-taxpayer-to-debt-risk/8628492.article)
Its a no brainer, if you are a commuter, if you get up 20 mins earlier you save 25% off your commute cost. Other way around, why would you pay 25% more just to arrive 20 minutes earlier?
Only ones that would pay that are people wanting to "experience" high speed (low numbers) or business travels that can be expensed (again not great numbers)
The bulk of season paying commuters don't like what they are paying now, all you need is Chiltern/West Coast to be cheaper and HS2 is a dead duck.
HS2 money should be spend on current infrastructure...
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as far as i'm concerned , unless it has proper steam engines on it, it's a waste of time and money..... ;)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :y
Now that IS something I agree with!
Proper railway engines those; one of my favourites:
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/y1pk176idNrUKOsZeQ7hIi6NvEKKrPdwXfQ.jpg)
West Country Pacific 34016 Bodmin on the Mid-Hant's Railway. How railways should be :D :D :D :D ;)
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LZ - I hear what you are saying, BUT!
Phase 2 is unlikely to ever get built. Even HS2 Ltd accept that Phase 1 is the endgame.
A gauge has not yet been determined for HS2 Phase 1, although (at the time of consultation) it was going to be unique, preventing it from running on other lines, HS1 and crossrail included. It also was unlikely to run on the rails beyond Litchfield, which kind of makes the "non stop from Mancs" etc a bit of a porkie, affecting the non-stop times they claim. There was talk of a hybrid system, but BR have a poor record in getting these things to work.
I asked, to save development costs, as it was to be a different gauge to UK, why they didn't go for an off-the-shelf gauge from one of the European ones, but it wasn't "suitable", with no further reasoning/explanation.
Lets assume it will be 4 years late, not unreasonable, so 2030. Business meetings will likely be a thing of the past, as technology takes over. Most office based workers will become home workers. Those needing to travel regularly will be those needing to be in a specific location to do their job - factory workers, retail workers (if retail still exists), nurses and so on. These are the people who won't be able to afford to use the service. Although if you look at HS2 specifically, unless to live in central Brum, or in London, and work in the other, its actually of no use whatsoever. WCML and Chiltern provide a much more useful service by stopping at locations on route. And yet, provide services that aren't that much longer timewise (and thats assuming you live at one terminus, and work at the other).
HS2 will not be used for freight. Its design will prohibit it anyway.
As to railways making a profit, they never will. Even now, all fares are sibsidised by around 50% by those of use who don't/can't use the railways. HS2 will be similar (or need even more subsidy), not including the cost of building, yet will be usable by even fewer people.
That bit I have not heard before TB :o :o
Gauge can cover the height and width of carriages, as well as the running lines i.e. 4 foot 8 1/2 inches, which is standard on most mainland European railways, although metre and 5 foots are not uncommon. So, is it track gauge that is being discussed?
If so, then frankly I would welcome re-introducing Brunel's 7 foot 1/4 inch track gauge for the huge advantages that would bring :y However, that would definitely preclude running through to the rest of Europe which I believe is essential. As I do running very high speed freight trains for full commercial advantage.
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The lessons have not been learned from HS1. Tickets for "High Speed" services are around 25% higher than normal services, passenger numbers are lower than expected:
http://www.nce.co.uk/news/transport/high-speed-1-underwhelming-passenger-numbers-exposed-taxpayer-to-debt-risk/8628492.article (http://www.nce.co.uk/news/transport/high-speed-1-underwhelming-passenger-numbers-exposed-taxpayer-to-debt-risk/8628492.article)
Its a no brainer, if you are a commuter, if you get up 20 mins earlier you save 25% off your commute cost. Other way around, why would you pay 25% more just to arrive 20 minutes earlier?
Only ones that would pay that are people wanting to "experience" high speed (low numbers) or business travels that can be expensed (again not great numbers)
The bulk of season paying commuters don't like what they are paying now, all you need is Chiltern/West Coast to be cheaper and HS2 is a dead duck.
HS2 money should be spend on current infrastructure...
But as I stated Tunnie, these high speed lines are more about the future than now.
If only Brunel's Broad Gauge had have won the day the railways would be even more advantageous than they are now ;)
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The lessons have not been learned from HS1. Tickets for "High Speed" services are around 25% higher than normal services, passenger numbers are lower than expected:
http://www.nce.co.uk/news/transport/high-speed-1-underwhelming-passenger-numbers-exposed-taxpayer-to-debt-risk/8628492.article (http://www.nce.co.uk/news/transport/high-speed-1-underwhelming-passenger-numbers-exposed-taxpayer-to-debt-risk/8628492.article)
Its a no brainer, if you are a commuter, if you get up 20 mins earlier you save 25% off your commute cost. Other way around, why would you pay 25% more just to arrive 20 minutes earlier?
Only ones that would pay that are people wanting to "experience" high speed (low numbers) or business travels that can be expensed (again not great numbers)
The bulk of season paying commuters don't like what they are paying now, all you need is Chiltern/West Coast to be cheaper and HS2 is a dead duck.
HS2 money should be spend on current infrastructure...
But as I stated Tunnie, these high speed lines are more about the future than now.
If only Brunel's Broad Gauge had have won the day the railways would be even more advantageous than they are now ;)
So spend that money on the lines we have now, make them faster, better signalling, better faster rolling stock, Electrification of what we have.
Get what we have up to scratch first, then look at new lines.
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However, that would definitely preclude running through to the rest of Europe which I believe is essential.
Accept the fact that Eurotunnel would not ever allow anyone else to use their tunnel, last thing they want to see is their own companies, such as Le Shuttle, have any further competition.
HS2, as it stands, is a white elephant that we all have to pay for to build (a significant amount), and will have to heavily subsidise it forever.
The tiny few that can use it (because it stops/starts in a useable location for them), are unlikely to have a need for it anyway.
Its business case is severely flawed, its approval is based on sloppy reports (at best, corrupt lies is probably nearer the truth), and nobody will want to use it.
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The lessons have not been learned from HS1. Tickets for "High Speed" services are around 25% higher than normal services, passenger numbers are lower than expected:
http://www.nce.co.uk/news/transport/high-speed-1-underwhelming-passenger-numbers-exposed-taxpayer-to-debt-risk/8628492.article (http://www.nce.co.uk/news/transport/high-speed-1-underwhelming-passenger-numbers-exposed-taxpayer-to-debt-risk/8628492.article)
Its a no brainer, if you are a commuter, if you get up 20 mins earlier you save 25% off your commute cost. Other way around, why would you pay 25% more just to arrive 20 minutes earlier?
Only ones that would pay that are people wanting to "experience" high speed (low numbers) or business travels that can be expensed (again not great numbers)
The bulk of season paying commuters don't like what they are paying now, all you need is Chiltern/West Coast to be cheaper and HS2 is a dead duck.
HS2 money should be spend on current infrastructure...
But as I stated Tunnie, these high speed lines are more about the future than now.
If only Brunel's Broad Gauge had have won the day the railways would be even more advantageous than they are now ;)
So spend that money on the lines we have now, make them faster, better signalling, better faster rolling stock, Electrification of what we have.
Get what we have up to scratch first, then look at new lines.
Indeed Tunnie, that would be a good approach in places, and the rail authorities are spending money in that direction when they can :y
However, in many places it is cheaper to build a brand new fast link than use existing track beds. In our busy, over crowded cities, they have grown up and developed around the original Victorian railway infrastructure. Without tearing down buildings, extending track beds, building new tunnels and bridges, along with extended stations, you cannot just lay additional track on what exists. Crossrail under London is a good example of what has to be done now; build completely new infrasture, in this example tunnels, to take the new track to create vast additional capacity.
The lines that exist currently all travel through major cities, I cannot think of one where it would be 'easy' and cost efficient to build in the additional capacity without major demolition, huge cost, and massive disruption. Again, it is far more cost effective to build a new high speed, for the purpose, line from scratch. Never underestimate also the difficulty in building into existing curves, straight but limited track beds, and as stated before, the railway stations themselves.
Here 'down South' the HS1 line was built in many cases within sight of existing lines, but there is no way it could share the old track bed and route in general. Indeed in Ashford the HS1 goes over the existing station via a motorway type flyover. Ashford is a fairly small town, so just imagine the problems with very large towns and cities.
No, it is either a brand new line or nothing. Like additional airport capacity, doing nothing is not an option for the commercial interests of our country. ;)
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Have to disagree there, better signalling & electrification of our entire network would be a start. Electric trains are faster, lighter and less noise.
Better signals would allow trains to run closer together, as its during commuter hours when services suffer.
I've used rail services during the day, outside of rush hour, practically empty!
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LZ - apart from when it hits the M25, does WCML from Brum to London go through any cities? To save you looking at a map, the answer is no.
I still think the existing services are more than adequate, not particularly overcrowded (on the Brum to Smoke routes), and I think commuting will be reduced in 20yrs.
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However, that would definitely preclude running through to the rest of Europe which I believe is essential.
Accept the fact that Eurotunnel would not ever allow anyone else to use their tunnel, last thing they want to see is their own companies, such as Le Shuttle, have any further competition.
HS2, as it stands, is a white elephant that we all have to pay for to build (a significant amount), and will have to heavily subsidise it forever.
The tiny few that can use it (because it stops/starts in a useable location for them), are unlikely to have a need for it anyway.
Its business case is severely flawed, its approval is based on sloppy reports (at best, corrupt lies is probably nearer the truth), and nobody will want to use it.
That sounds just like the public "consultation" that my local council gave when the wanted to build a new school nearby me......and still built it ::)
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However, that would definitely preclude running through to the rest of Europe which I believe is essential.
Accept the fact that Eurotunnel would not ever allow anyone else to use their tunnel, last thing they want to see is their own companies, such as Le Shuttle, have any further competition.
HS2, as it stands, is a white elephant that we all have to pay for to build (a significant amount), and will have to heavily subsidise it forever.
The tiny few that can use it (because it stops/starts in a useable location for them), are unlikely to have a need for it anyway.
Its business case is severely flawed, its approval is based on sloppy reports (at best, corrupt lies is probably nearer the truth), and nobody will want to use it.
Sorry TB but you are greatly underestimating it's importance. In 2011, whilst we are in the grip of a major recession, Eurostar carried 9.7 million passengers.
Eurotunnel celebrated this year 300 million passengers that have travelled through the tunnel since 1994.
In addition millions of tons of freight have travelled through from Europe and back in container freight trains, amounting to Euro 473 million in just the first six months of 2012.
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/freight/eurotunnel-reports-strong-revenue-growth-in-first-half-of-2012.html#.ULEITuRWySo
A "white elephant"? Definitely not! It is BIG business, and that is before any link up to a fast line to the north. ;)
http://www.eurostar.com/UK/uk/leisure/about_eurostar/press_release/20120308_eurostar_reports_growth.jsp
http://www.eurotunnelgroup.com/uploadedFiles/assets-uk/Media/Press-Releases/2012-Press-Releases/121018-300-millions-voyageurs-UK.pdf
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But we already have 2 main lines that go up North, outside commuter times services have low use.
We don't need HS2, if you want to take a train to B'ham, take WCML if you want a quick train. Slightly slower, take Chiltern. If you don't live near a station and want to get there cheap, drive.
No freight will run on HS2, won't be very High Speed stuck behind 60mph freight train ;)
Why do we need a 4th option? :-\
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LZ - apart from when it hits the M25, does WCML from Brum to London go through any cities? To save you looking at a map, the answer is no.
I still think the existing services are more than adequate, not particularly overcrowded (on the Brum to Smoke routes), and I think commuting will be reduced in 20yrs.
What?!
Here is the map of the WCML, and you say it does not go through any cities? I am sure when I travelled it it did, and the limits of the track bed are obvious all the way up North.
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/WCMLMAP.png)
;) :y
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LZ - I was one of those 300m. I won't be again. You complain of bad business practices on another thread..... ;)
HS2 will not carry freight, so cancel out all the freight calcs.
Eurostar and Le Shuttle are gateways to Europe. People will travel to the terminus, in order to get to Europe. HS2 doesn't really offer the same. I'm not going to drive to Birmingham, just to get to London. How many people get aboard Eurostar at London, just to get off before Folkstone? ;)
This is about spending £23bn (unclear is its £23,000,000,000 or £23,000,000,000,000), assuming its done to budget (which we know from experience....) to provide a service that already exists, only just be a few minutes faster (and thats all it is, a few minutes). And then spending all the subsidies just so the (very) few can use it.
Note, I'm specifically avoiding the whole debate about ripping up AoONB - and it would be a shame to ruin the Chilterns - and all the usual NIMBY "it will blight the countryside" views. For info, its too far away from me - about a mile, in a cutting, so will have no impact. If the wind is in the right direction, I *may* hear it, assuming that somebody first bombs the 3 local airstrips, and the A43.
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But we already have 2 main lines that go up North, outside commuter times services have low use.
We don't need HS2, if you want to take a train to B'ham, take WCML if you want a quick train. Slightly slower, take Chiltern. If you don't live near a station and want to get there cheap, drive.
No freight will run on HS2, won't be very High Speed stuck behind 60mph freight train ;)
Why do we need a 4th option? :-\
Because we do need a fast modern rail link, not one built for 19th century trains and business.
Driving long distance in 50 years time may not be an option, and the ideas currently about freight trains WILL change, as they greatly have since the 19th century. Fast freight is BIG business (please see my previous thread link for Eurotunnel Freight: Euro 473 million for the first six months of 2012. Very fast freight will come under commercial pressure and the market dictating it should.
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LZ - apart from when it hits the M25, does WCML from Brum to London go through any cities? To save you looking at a map, the answer is no.
I still think the existing services are more than adequate, not particularly overcrowded (on the Brum to Smoke routes), and I think commuting will be reduced in 20yrs.
What?!
Here is the map of the WCML, and you say it does not go through any cities? I am sure when I travelled it it did, and the limits of the track bed are obvious all the way up North.
;) :y
Name 1 city it goes through between London and Brum, which was what I said ;)
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Because we do need a fast modern rail link, not one built for 19th century trains and business.
Why? The 19th century one is pretty much as good as the new proposed one, which only shaves off a few minutes ;)
Driving long distance in 50 years time may not be an option,
Yup, we'll be flying everywhere :y
and the ideas currently about freight trains WILL change, as they greatly have since the 19th century. Fast freight is BIG business (please see my previous thread link for Eurotunnel Freight: Euro 473 million for the first six months of 2012. Very fast freight will come under commercial pressure and the market dictating it should.
HS2 is NOT able to carry freight. HS2 is a passenger service only. HS2 will NEVER be able to carry freight.
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But we already have 2 main lines that go up North, outside commuter times services have low use.
We don't need HS2, if you want to take a train to B'ham, take WCML if you want a quick train. Slightly slower, take Chiltern. If you don't live near a station and want to get there cheap, drive.
No freight will run on HS2, won't be very High Speed stuck behind 60mph freight train ;)
Why do we need a 4th option? :-\
Because we do need a fast modern rail link, not one built for 19th century trains and business.
Driving long distance in 50 years time may not be an option, and the ideas currently about freight trains WILL change, as they greatly have since the 19th century. Fast freight is BIG business (please see my previous thread link for Eurotunnel Freight: Euro 473 million for the first six months of 2012. Very fast freight will come under commercial pressure and the market dictating it should.
Eurotunnel has limit of 60mph, not very fast ;)
May get it up to 100mph, but still going to hold up 150mph passenger services.
My previous comments still stand, if you want to get to B'Ham or London, from either, you have two perfectly good train options.
Working remotely has jumped massively, people don't need to save time on their journeys any more. Concorde has sadly proven that, people are happy to spend longer getting there.
If its urgent, there are other means.
Given HS2's budget, we could make some serious road improvements nationwide. More people would benefit from it, rather than people in around around London/Birmingham.
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But we already have 2 main lines that go up North, outside commuter times services have low use.
We don't need HS2, if you want to take a train to B'ham, take WCML if you want a quick train. Slightly slower, take Chiltern. If you don't live near a station and want to get there cheap, drive.
No freight will run on HS2, won't be very High Speed stuck behind 60mph freight train ;)
Why do we need a 4th option? :-\
Because we do need a fast modern rail link, not one built for 19th century trains and business.
Driving long distance in 50 years time may not be an option, and the ideas currently about freight trains WILL change, as they greatly have since the 19th century. Fast freight is BIG business (please see my previous thread link for Eurotunnel Freight: Euro 473 million for the first six months of 2012. Very fast freight will come under commercial pressure and the market dictating it should.
It certainly won't be an option for me, thank God.
Roll on death. :(
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LZ - I was one of those 300m. I won't be again. You complain of bad business practices on another thread..... ;)
HS2 will not carry freight, so cancel out all the freight calcs.
Eurostar and Le Shuttle are gateways to Europe. People will travel to the terminus, in order to get to Europe. HS2 doesn't really offer the same. I'm not going to drive to Birmingham, just to get to London. How many people get aboard Eurostar at London, just to get off before Folkstone? ;)
This is about spending £23bn (unclear is its £23,000,000,000 or £23,000,000,000,000), assuming its done to budget (which we know from experience....) to provide a service that already exists, only just be a few minutes faster (and thats all it is, a few minutes). And then spending all the subsidies just so the (very) few can use it.
Note, I'm specifically avoiding the whole debate about ripping up AoONB - and it would be a shame to ruin the Chilterns - and all the usual NIMBY "it will blight the countryside" views. For info, its too far away from me - about a mile, in a cutting, so will have no impact. If the wind is in the right direction, I *may* hear it, assuming that somebody first bombs the 3 local airstrips, and the A43.
I understand what you mean TB, but travelling to Europe is so easy now for us in the South. Forget busy overcrowded airports and high seas in the Channel.
As for HS2 use; eventually it will extend to the north and it will be of great benefit for those travelling to European destinations. Going from Birmingham to London? well no, I would never think that will form the major element of passenger travel. You are right. But the line is destined for European travel firstly, but secondly it will be also used for internal British travel. Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone. Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture. ;)
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Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone. Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture. ;)
Ohh not they are not:
http://www.railpro.co.uk/news/?idArticles=234 (http://www.railpro.co.uk/news/?idArticles=234)
Reducing capacity by 50% means fek all people are using it. ::)
Also why pay extra for speed? Just get up earlier? ;)
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Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone. Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture. ;)
Ohh not they are not:
http://www.railpro.co.uk/news/?idArticles=234 (http://www.railpro.co.uk/news/?idArticles=234)
Reducing capacity by 50% means fek all people are using it. ::)
Also why pay extra for speed? Just get up earlier? ;)
Should also add, if had a family, instead of paying 25% more to get there 20 minutes earlier, I would spend that 25% on the family (gifts/rides/food/toys) at the destination and just take them to the station 20 minutes sooner :)
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LZ - apart from when it hits the M25, does WCML from Brum to London go through any cities? To save you looking at a map, the answer is no.
I still think the existing services are more than adequate, not particularly overcrowded (on the Brum to Smoke routes), and I think commuting will be reduced in 20yrs.
What?!
Here is the map of the WCML, and you say it does not go through any cities? I am sure when I travelled it it did, and the limits of the track bed are obvious all the way up North.
;) :y
Name 1 city it goes through between London and Brum, which was what I said ;)
Alright TB, none between London and Birmingham, but I was on about the WHOLE route to the north which includes Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Carlisle, Glasgow Edinburgh for instance and is shared by much domestic mixed traffic. You cannot build a high speed line on that track bed alignment / route without exceptional cost, even compared to HS2. I am also repeating that this is about the long term with HS2 going fully up to the North.
It is he way to go :y
.
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I understand what you mean TB, but travelling to Europe is so easy now for us in the South. Forget busy overcrowded airports and high seas in the Channel.
Assuming I would ever use Eurotunnel services again (I won't, lying breakless retards), remind me how HS2 (Phase 1, Phase 2 will never get built) will improve my trip? It will only improve your trip *IF* you are within a few minutes of the 2 Birmingham termini. And on such a journey, are you going to pay the premium to shave around 15 mins off your journey? Personally, I'd get one of the slower, far cheaper coaches that drop you right off outside Kings Cross, and not have to worry about trying to drag my cases across the underground. It would probably be quicker anyway ;)
HS2 is not a route to Europe. HS2 Ltd say its primarily a commuter service in to London.
As for HS2 use; eventually it will extend to the north and it will be of great benefit for those travelling to European destinations. Going from Birmingham to London? well no, I would never think that will form the major element of passenger travel. You are right. But the line is destined for European travel firstly, but secondly it will be also used for internal British travel. Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone. Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture. ;)
HS1 is a commercial failure I believe?
HS2 will not extend to Europe. Its purely a Birmingham to London service. I'm going blue in the face saying it.
Even HS2 Ltd say its unlikely that Phase 2 of HS2 (Mancs and Leeds) will ever get built. I think they can see the journey improvement times are not enough to warrant it, as there is little scope to improve it much. All the time benefits are at the London end.
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Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone. Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture. ;)
Ohh not they are not:
http://www.railpro.co.uk/news/?idArticles=234 (http://www.railpro.co.uk/news/?idArticles=234)
Reducing capacity by 50% means fek all people are using it. ::)
Also why pay extra for speed? Just get up earlier? ;)
I have said why, and these are early days Tunnie ;).
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We need that kind of thinking for Heathrow's 3rd Runway :y
Yes, and the HS2 rail link tunnie :D :D ;)
Still, the way the Coalition is thinking, speeded up planning processes will become the norm. However I do not think we will match the Chinese practice! ::) ::) ;D ;D
Only a communist or national socialist state could do that ;)
is that right lizzie??...you taken a trip up the A20 at sidcup.....they did that to a person up there who would'nt sell so they built the main dual carrigeway into london around his £3.5 millon house 8)
Ah, that's the clue TAM!
He is rich, so in our democratic capitalist system money talks. Instead of bulldozing the house as they would in the case of you and I, the multi-millionaire just got his cheque book out!! ::) ::) ;)
errr NO that was not the case he wanted more money and kept on upping his price,in the end the department of transport had enough of his stupidness so they built a 8 lane carriageway around his house...his drive is now the A 20
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Alright TB, none between London and Birmingham, but I was on about the WHOLE route to the north which includes Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Carlisle, Glasgow Edinburgh for instance and is shared by much domestic mixed traffic. You cannot build a high speed line on that track bed alignment / route without exceptional cost, even compared to HS2. I am also repeating that this is about the long term with HS2 going fully up to the North.
It is he way to go :y
Phase 2 is unlikely to ever go ahead. There was no hint at the consultations that going beyond Mancs and Leeds would even be considered.
Mancs already has a pretty fast service into London (not sure about Leeds, never used the train to get there), so if we really thing rail is the way to go (lets face it, its not), spend the money improving the service beyond there. Or providing services so more people can use the train. Or was Beeching right :-X
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Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone. Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture. ;)
Ohh not they are not:
http://www.railpro.co.uk/news/?idArticles=234 (http://www.railpro.co.uk/news/?idArticles=234)
Reducing capacity by 50% means fek all people are using it. ::)
Also why pay extra for speed? Just get up earlier? ;)
I have said why, and these are early days Tunnie ;).
What, "to be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month".
Very, very, very weak excuse for a multi billion pound project!
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I understand what you mean TB, but travelling to Europe is so easy now for us in the South. Forget busy overcrowded airports and high seas in the Channel.
Assuming I would ever use Eurotunnel services again (I won't, lying breakless retards), remind me how HS2 (Phase 1, Phase 2 will never get built) will improve my trip? It will only improve your trip *IF* you are within a few minutes of the 2 Birmingham termini. And on such a journey, are you going to pay the premium to shave around 15 mins off your journey? Personally, I'd get one of the slower, far cheaper coaches that drop you right off outside Kings Cross, and not have to worry about trying to drag my cases across the underground. It would probably be quicker anyway ;)
HS2 is not a route to Europe. HS2 Ltd say its primarily a commuter service in to London.
As for HS2 use; eventually it will extend to the north and it will be of great benefit for those travelling to European destinations. Going from Birmingham to London? well no, I would never think that will form the major element of passenger travel. You are right. But the line is destined for European travel firstly, but secondly it will be also used for internal British travel. Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone. Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture. ;)
HS1 is a commercial failure I believe?
HS2 will not extend to Europe. Its purely a Birmingham to London service. I'm going blue in the face saying it.
Even HS2 Ltd say its unlikely that Phase 2 of HS2 (Mancs and Leeds) will ever get built. I think they can see the journey improvement times are not enough to warrant it, as there is little scope to improve it much. All the time benefits are at the London end.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I'd love to see that TB! ;D ;D ;)
........and I am going crazy trying to state that this is a long term answer, not now, or even in 15 years time, and I KNOW it will not be built before then.
It IS for our children's children, and a forward investment when we must be efficiently linked to Europe, avoiding impossibly conjested roads, airports and airspace, along with the flaws travelling on rough seas! Some could not see the advantages of railways (or cars and aeroplanes) when first suggested, like you with HS2. In 50 years it will be a different world, and Great Britain, although I will not see it! ::) ::) :D :D ;)
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http://www.metro.co.uk/news/824624-140mph-train-service-is-reduced-after-complaints (http://www.metro.co.uk/news/824624-140mph-train-service-is-reduced-after-complaints)
HS1 is not being used now ::)
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Alright TB, none between London and Birmingham, but I was on about the WHOLE route to the north which includes Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Carlisle, Glasgow Edinburgh for instance and is shared by much domestic mixed traffic. You cannot build a high speed line on that track bed alignment / route without exceptional cost, even compared to HS2. I am also repeating that this is about the long term with HS2 going fully up to the North.
It is he way to go :y
Phase 2 is unlikely to ever go ahead. There was no hint at the consultations that going beyond Mancs and Leeds would even be considered.
Mancs already has a pretty fast service into London (not sure about Leeds, never used the train to get there), so if we really thing rail is the way to go (lets face it, its not), spend the money improving the service beyond there. Or providing services so more people can use the train. Or was Beeching right :-X
That is not what the Governments long term view is. At present it is to Birmingham, but later beyond.
Beeching was not right in the long term, but for the 1963 he was in financial terms. :y
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I understand what you mean TB, but travelling to Europe is so easy now for us in the South. Forget busy overcrowded airports and high seas in the Channel.
Assuming I would ever use Eurotunnel services again (I won't, lying breakless retards), remind me how HS2 (Phase 1, Phase 2 will never get built) will improve my trip? It will only improve your trip *IF* you are within a few minutes of the 2 Birmingham termini. And on such a journey, are you going to pay the premium to shave around 15 mins off your journey? Personally, I'd get one of the slower, far cheaper coaches that drop you right off outside Kings Cross, and not have to worry about trying to drag my cases across the underground. It would probably be quicker anyway ;)
HS2 is not a route to Europe. HS2 Ltd say its primarily a commuter service in to London.
As for HS2 use; eventually it will extend to the north and it will be of great benefit for those travelling to European destinations. Going from Birmingham to London? well no, I would never think that will form the major element of passenger travel. You are right. But the line is destined for European travel firstly, but secondly it will be also used for internal British travel. Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone. Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture. ;)
HS1 is a commercial failure I believe?
HS2 will not extend to Europe. Its purely a Birmingham to London service. I'm going blue in the face saying it.
Even HS2 Ltd say its unlikely that Phase 2 of HS2 (Mancs and Leeds) will ever get built. I think they can see the journey improvement times are not enough to warrant it, as there is little scope to improve it much. All the time benefits are at the London end.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I'd love to see that TB! ;D ;D ;)
........and I am going crazy trying to state that this is a long term answer, not now, or even in 15 years time, and I KNOW it will not be built before then.
It IS for our children's children, and a forward investment when we must be efficiently linked to Europe, avoiding impossibly conjested roads, airports and airspace, along with the flaws travelling on rough seas! Some could not see the advantages of railways (or cars and aeroplanes) when first suggested, like you with HS2. In 50 years it will be a different world, and Great Britain, although I will not see it! ::) ::) :D :D ;)
how on earth is HS2 going to give us efficent travel links to europe??...it is terminating in london???????
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I understand what you mean TB, but travelling to Europe is so easy now for us in the South. Forget busy overcrowded airports and high seas in the Channel.
Assuming I would ever use Eurotunnel services again (I won't, lying breakless retards), remind me how HS2 (Phase 1, Phase 2 will never get built) will improve my trip? It will only improve your trip *IF* you are within a few minutes of the 2 Birmingham termini. And on such a journey, are you going to pay the premium to shave around 15 mins off your journey? Personally, I'd get one of the slower, far cheaper coaches that drop you right off outside Kings Cross, and not have to worry about trying to drag my cases across the underground. It would probably be quicker anyway ;)
HS2 is not a route to Europe. HS2 Ltd say its primarily a commuter service in to London.
As for HS2 use; eventually it will extend to the north and it will be of great benefit for those travelling to European destinations. Going from Birmingham to London? well no, I would never think that will form the major element of passenger travel. You are right. But the line is destined for European travel firstly, but secondly it will be also used for internal British travel. Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone. Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture. ;)
HS1 is a commercial failure I believe?
HS2 will not extend to Europe. Its purely a Birmingham to London service. I'm going blue in the face saying it.
Even HS2 Ltd say its unlikely that Phase 2 of HS2 (Mancs and Leeds) will ever get built. I think they can see the journey improvement times are not enough to warrant it, as there is little scope to improve it much. All the time benefits are at the London end.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I'd love to see that TB! ;D ;D ;)
........and I am going crazy trying to state that this is a long term answer, not now, or even in 15 years time, and I KNOW it will not be built before then.
It IS for our children's children, and a forward investment when we must be efficiently linked to Europe, avoiding impossibly conjested roads, airports and airspace, along with the flaws travelling on rough seas! Some could not see the advantages of railways (or cars and aeroplanes) when first suggested, like you with HS2. In 50 years it will be a different world, and Great Britain, although I will not see it! ::) ::) :D :D ;)
Well, Phase 1 won't be built in 15yrs, so I doubt the unlikely Phase 2 will be, or the unplanned route further North.
My point being, unlike air travel, cars, or the original railways, HS2 offers nothing other than about 15mins off a 120m journey. Phase 2 offers even lower returns per mile for time saved.
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http://www.metro.co.uk/news/824624-140mph-train-service-is-reduced-after-complaints (http://www.metro.co.uk/news/824624-140mph-train-service-is-reduced-after-complaints)
HS1 is not being used now ::)
The HS1 line is being used, it is the Javelin service that needs to develop it's business further, which is true of most businesses during the hard financial situation since 2008. Once more..................it is for the long term, but shorter term than HS2 before you all shout at me! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
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Alright TB, none between London and Birmingham, but I was on about the WHOLE route to the north which includes Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Carlisle, Glasgow Edinburgh for instance and is shared by much domestic mixed traffic. You cannot build a high speed line on that track bed alignment / route without exceptional cost, even compared to HS2. I am also repeating that this is about the long term with HS2 going fully up to the North.
It is he way to go :y
Phase 2 is unlikely to ever go ahead. There was no hint at the consultations that going beyond Mancs and Leeds would even be considered.
Mancs already has a pretty fast service into London (not sure about Leeds, never used the train to get there), so if we really thing rail is the way to go (lets face it, its not), spend the money improving the service beyond there. Or providing services so more people can use the train. Or was Beeching right :-X
That is not what the Governments long term view is. At present it is to Birmingham, but later beyond.
Beeching was not right in the long term, but for the 1963 he was in financial terms. :y
The Government has not signed up to Phase 2. So its NOT a Government view. Its an HS2 Ltd's view, and even they accept its unlikely they can build a business case for Phase 2 (probably more so when Phase 1 flops). HS2 Ltd have no plans for a Phase 3 to go beyond Mancs or Leeds.
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http://www.metro.co.uk/news/824624-140mph-train-service-is-reduced-after-complaints (http://www.metro.co.uk/news/824624-140mph-train-service-is-reduced-after-complaints)
HS1 is not being used now ::)
The HS1 line is being used, it is the Javelin service that needs to develop it's business further, which is true of most businesses during the hard financial situation since 2008. Once more..................it is for the long term, but shorter term than HS2 before you all shout at me! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
So the high speed bit? Remind me again the point of HS2? :D
-
I understand what you mean TB, but travelling to Europe is so easy now for us in the South. Forget busy overcrowded airports and high seas in the Channel.
Assuming I would ever use Eurotunnel services again (I won't, lying breakless retards), remind me how HS2 (Phase 1, Phase 2 will never get built) will improve my trip? It will only improve your trip *IF* you are within a few minutes of the 2 Birmingham termini. And on such a journey, are you going to pay the premium to shave around 15 mins off your journey? Personally, I'd get one of the slower, far cheaper coaches that drop you right off outside Kings Cross, and not have to worry about trying to drag my cases across the underground. It would probably be quicker anyway ;)
HS2 is not a route to Europe. HS2 Ltd say its primarily a commuter service in to London.
As for HS2 use; eventually it will extend to the north and it will be of great benefit for those travelling to European destinations. Going from Birmingham to London? well no, I would never think that will form the major element of passenger travel. You are right. But the line is destined for European travel firstly, but secondly it will be also used for internal British travel. Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone. Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture. ;)
HS1 is a commercial failure I believe?
HS2 will not extend to Europe. Its purely a Birmingham to London service. I'm going blue in the face saying it.
Even HS2 Ltd say its unlikely that Phase 2 of HS2 (Mancs and Leeds) will ever get built. I think they can see the journey improvement times are not enough to warrant it, as there is little scope to improve it much. All the time benefits are at the London end.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I'd love to see that TB! ;D ;D ;)
........and I am going crazy trying to state that this is a long term answer, not now, or even in 15 years time, and I KNOW it will not be built before then.
It IS for our children's children, and a forward investment when we must be efficiently linked to Europe, avoiding impossibly conjested roads, airports and airspace, along with the flaws travelling on rough seas! Some could not see the advantages of railways (or cars and aeroplanes) when first suggested, like you with HS2. In 50 years it will be a different world, and Great Britain, although I will not see it! ::) ::) :D :D ;)
how on earth is HS2 going to give us efficent travel links to europe??...it is terminating in london???????
............and as I stated before TAM that will be a big mistake and MUST be changed in any future plans. It MUST go through to Europe for the whole project to suceed. It will not if it does terminate there, and I will personally lobby for that once public consultations start in earnest. :y :y
PS I haven't ignored your post on the millionaires house TAM; been a bit busy with railway matters!! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D
No, I was being flippant about his money talking, although as someone else has rightly stated the compulsory purchase order normally over-rides such circumstances. Did his money talk then; I really don't know, but I am suspicious of such inconsistencies after dealing with many rogues in my time! :D ;)
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It would be incredibly expensive to link it to HS1, either going to need a wacking great tunnel under London or go around it.)
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Alright TB, none between London and Birmingham, but I was on about the WHOLE route to the north which includes Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Carlisle, Glasgow Edinburgh for instance and is shared by much domestic mixed traffic. You cannot build a high speed line on that track bed alignment / route without exceptional cost, even compared to HS2. I am also repeating that this is about the long term with HS2 going fully up to the North.
It is he way to go :y
Phase 2 is unlikely to ever go ahead. There was no hint at the consultations that going beyond Mancs and Leeds would even be considered.
Mancs already has a pretty fast service into London (not sure about Leeds, never used the train to get there), so if we really thing rail is the way to go (lets face it, its not), spend the money improving the service beyond there. Or providing services so more people can use the train. Or was Beeching right :-X
That is not what the Governments long term view is. At present it is to Birmingham, but later beyond.
Beeching was not right in the long term, but for the 1963 he was in financial terms. :y
The Government has not signed up to Phase 2. So its NOT a Government view. Its an HS2 Ltd's view, and even they accept its unlikely they can build a business case for Phase 2 (probably more so when Phase 1 flops). HS2 Ltd have no plans for a Phase 3 to go beyond Mancs or Leeds.
Yes, maybe it is their view, but future governments, and I think we all understand now this is very long term, will require it to go further than the brief HS2 Ltd., have so far been given. That is no surprise to me, and has been made clear from the start.
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............and as I stated before TAM that will be a big mistake and MUST be changed in any future plans. It MUST go through to Europe for the whole project to suceed. It will not if it does terminate there, and I will personally lobby for that once public consultations start in earnest. :y :y
They have been and gone, and the project signed off, although facing several legal disputes around the "facts" that make up the business case.
You're 18 months too late. HS2 is a Birmingham to London Commuter Service.
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It would be incredibly expensive to link it to HS1, either going to need a wacking great tunnel under London or go around it.)
No, it is feasible by "simply" (there I go, when I know it is NEVER simple with railways in London! ::) ::)) building an avoiding loop at ST. Pancras so trains can avoid the main part of the station to go onto the HS1. Rather similar, but in bigger scale, to the trains avoiding Waterloo from the South and going via the through station of Waterloo East. ;)
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Well, with more research, it seems my fears, and yours, could be resolved. There is officially a plan to link HS2 with HS1, by, as I suggested, a loop North of St. Pancras. If still the plan this is great news :y
Please see:
You need to zoom in to this plan but the red line of HS2 goes onto the HS1 line outside St. Pancras:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hs2-revised-line-of-route-maps
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hs2-maps-20120110/hs2arp00drrw05140issue2.pdf
The BBC reported in July on the plans:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-18686495
Note: HS2 Ltd state only that Stage 2 has not been planned YET. ;)
So TB, in the long term HS2 is not just going to be a domestic commuter route. 8)
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This is what I LOVE about the OOF!
We not only discuss great car stuff and help to sort out our problems, but enter into great debate on big topical matters as though we can change anything ::) ::)
To think this thread started with a house in the middle of a new road...................in China...........Wonderful!! :-* :-* :-* :-* :y :y
Thanks to all that enter into debate. May it long continue 8) 8) 8)
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Stage 2 = Phase 2 = the bit from Litchfield to Mancs/Leeds. That hasn't been planned, but is on the agenda as previously said, but they don't think the business case is there. Even they admit this is unlikely to happen.
Any Phase 3 - the bit beyond Mancs/Leeds, hasn't even been thought of yet.
As to the linking to HS1, that was most certainly not on the consultation info - I still have the pack here, and am looking at it. It suggests a link to HS1 via some modifications to Crossrail, which is why its going in via West London (not the best way to get to Euston!!), but will require changes, as the rolling stock is unlikely to be compatible with standard UK track (actual decisions on track/wheels hasn't been made).
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Stage 2 = Phase 2 = the bit from Litchfield to Mancs/Leeds. That hasn't been planned, but is on the agenda as previously said, but they don't think the business case is there. Even they admit this is unlikely to happen.
Any Phase 3 - the bit beyond Mancs/Leeds, hasn't even been thought of yet.
As to the linking to HS1, that was most certainly not on the consultation info - I still have the pack here, and am looking at it. It suggests a link to HS1 via some modifications to Crossrail, which is why its going in via West London (not the best way to get to Euston!!), but will require changes, as the rolling stock is unlikely to be compatible with standard UK track (actual decisions on track/wheels hasn't been made).
How did you get that pack TB? I would love to get hold of a copy.
Although, as you say it seems a lot has been agreed, it is always on the cards with any national project things will change as it all progresses, although I am pleased it would seem from the plans published on line that a HS1 / 2 link is at least being considered; something that, as I first stated, is essential to the commercial viability of the line(s). I am concerned that your pack does not make that clear. I wonder why, and what could be (politically?) transpiring behind the scenes.
Putting aside for a moment differences of opinion that will be rife throughout the land (more controversial than the Trident delivery system replacement?) it is clear many debates will still be had in Parliament, and changes of plan will transpire, before the first sod is cut, whenever that is. or not as you and others believe TB. :y
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They held local meets for areas it affects, Brackley (where my parents are) it goes past within a a couple of miles or so
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They held local meets for areas it affects, Brackley (where my parents are) it goes past within a a couple of miles or so
Thanks Tunnie :y :y
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How did you get that pack TB? I would love to get hold of a copy.
Went to the consultations.
Pretty certain they won't publish the packs too widely, as its too easy to find the flaws in their corruption plan
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Putting aside for a moment differences of opinion that will be rife throughout the land (more controversial than the Trident delivery system replacement?) it is clear many debates will still be had in Parliament, and changes of plan will transpire, before the first sod is cut, whenever that is. or not as you and others believe TB. :y
No more Parlimentry debates, they have finished. Compulsory purchases have started. All thats holding up actually starting are some legal debates around the BS that HS2 have used to get this through.
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Putting aside for a moment differences of opinion that will be rife throughout the land (more controversial than the Trident delivery system replacement?) it is clear many debates will still be had in Parliament, and changes of plan will transpire, before the first sod is cut, whenever that is. or not as you and others believe TB. :y
No more Parlimentry debates, they have finished. Compulsory purchases have started. All thats holding up actually starting are some legal debates around the BS that HS2 have used to get this through.
You really do believe there won't be political 'differences' that will not result in matters to be raised in the House for debate?
You have great faith there TB :D ;)
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.........and as the huge added benefit of the HS2, which could satisfy it's critics and supporters alike, is the employment this will give to many thousands within the construction industry and outside it.
The suppliers of the materials, the manufacturers of equipment, providers of labour, and all the services local to the construction will be able to guarantee existing jobs, and provide much additional employment. As the line proceeds in it's construction, it is not only the direct and indirect contractors that will employ thousands, but the many businesses, such as providers of transport, catering, hotel accommodation, pubs and clubs, etc, that can benefit as well. In the longer term the development of businesses and house building should add to the overall benefit.
Regardless of the debating issues for and against, this project is just what this country needs to revitalise our economy. I am nervous about the constant cutting policy of the Coalition, so a national infrasture project that aims to spend to create new jobs and hope for the many who are going through very rough times surely must be applauded.
The next national project, before it is too late, must be a new international airport to continue the momentum.
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Postscript! :)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20566295
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Very interesting! :y :y
The State finally won ::) ::) ::)