Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Lizzie_Zoom on 14 December 2012, 18:39:53
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Just been on the news.
Yet another mass shooting. Lone gunman walked into a kindergarten / primary school and has killed 18 children, aged between 5 and 10 years, with another 8 adults shot dead!!
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Just terrible :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
USA gun laws already being discussed. But those poor parents.........leading up to Christmas........ :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Can't see USA ever changing their gun laws :(
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Can't see USA ever changing their gun laws :(
Nor can I really Tunnie. The right to bear arms (2nd Amendment) is enshrined in law, and enshrined in the average American's mind :'( :'( :'(
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Can't see USA ever changing their gun laws :(
Nope. :'(
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20730717
Bad news at any time of year ....... but a couple of weeks befoe Christmas seems to make it even worse! :(
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I an stunned.....stunned. Such a terrible waste of innocent young lives. The bastards who perpetrate these crimes never live to stand trial either >:( >:( >:(
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A tragedy indeed.Sadly I think this won't be the last time either,but it's way too late I believe for any change[which won't happen anyway]to their gun law to do any good.
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Dear god,what on earth is going through someones mind to contemplate doing that to innocent kids :'( :'(
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I an stunned.....stunned. Such a terrible waste of innocent young lives. The bastards who perpetrate these crimes never live to stand trial either >:( >:( >:(
True, he has been "neutralized" in this case!
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I an stunned.....stunned. Such a terrible waste of innocent young lives. The bastards who perpetrate these crimes never live to stand trial either >:( >:( >:(
there are b*stards everywhere STMO.. yesterday syrian free army of b*stards exploded a truck near a school.. 16 dead of which 7 is children >:( and many wounded..
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I can't even begin to think how the parents of the victims must be feeling, and their young friends, this could remain with them for the rest of their lives :( :( :( :(
And I am not sure that anything to do with their gun laws would prevent such atrocities happening.... :( :(
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Ffs, what is it with the human race and especially the good old US of A ?
18 young kids aged between 5 and 10 slaughtered because some (no words can describe this person) had a oppsing problem. :(
And no doubt the citizens of the good old US of A will be screeming that they need more guns ::) :(
Leaders of the free world eh ?
From a father of one
This world is totally oppsed >:(
RIP little ones :'(
And Entwood, if you have a problem with my language, you know where you can stick it ;)
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sh+t happens,for every "looney tune" american there is probably a million "sane" ones.(that applies to the uk too)
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What tragic waste of lives,,and once again no one will pay the price for the crime
My thoughts and prayers are with the families
(http://images27.fotki.com/v993/photos/1/1629281/8457829/SendingPrayers_Leexxx-vi.png)
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I can't even begin to think how the parents of the victims must be feeling, and their young friends, this could remain with them for the rest of their lives :( :( :( :(
And I am not sure that anything to do with their gun laws would prevent such atrocities happening.... :( :(
Indeed, Vamps.
Even though guns are banned in this country, ask any police officer and he/she will say that it's easy enough to get one if you're hell-bent on doing so.
I don't know what the answer is, and I have no idea what prompted the young gunman to shoot his own mother, loads of kids, then himself, but I would not be gobsmacked if it transpired that drug culture has a part in this episode. Some kids' brains get so screwed up on narcotics, they become psychotic for life. That said, I am just thinking aloud about a tragedy of unfathomable proportions.
RIP all the poor victims. :'(
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Not always illegal drugs though.There is plenty of evidence (not widely publicised though) that many of these types of crimes are committed by people on prescription anti depressants.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/9367001/Safety-warning-over-Britains-most-common-antidepressant.html
http://www.cchrint.org/2012/07/20/the-aurora-colorado-tragedy-another-senseless-shooting-another-psychotropic-drug/
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Not always illegal drugs though.There is plenty of evidence (not widely publicised though) that many of these types of crimes are committed by people on prescription anti depressants.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/9367001/Safety-warning-over-Britains-most-common-antidepressant.html
http://www.cchrint.org/2012/07/20/the-aurora-colorado-tragedy-another-senseless-shooting-another-psychotropic-drug/
That second link makes for shocking reading, Albs. :o
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Having seen the effects of SSRI drugs close up Nick,I have real concerns about them.They can of course be of benefit to people with certain mental health issues,but I think the side effects arent taken seriously enough by some parts of the medical profession.
Closer study and scrutiny is needed imo.
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To echo whats aslready been said, it is a tragic waste indeed. Xmas every year now for them poor families will never be the same. And as for guns in this country, a couple of gang members in Nottingham have been jailed for a shooting. And one of them was on bail awaiting sentence for his part in the bombing of the police station in Notts during the riots!!
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My heart goes out to the families of the victims... :(
I don't want to detract from the main point of this thread by making it into another political discussion but...
Gun law is based upon the mistaken premise that a <person> who is willing to commit murder, rape, kidnap, terrorism or robbery will obey a law which forbids him from illegally equipping himself with a tool to make those things easier.
Gun law removes weapons from the law-abiding, not from criminals - all I can think is that if the teachers had been armed, the killer might have been stopped at two or three victims instead of 20.
And I thought the same after Dunblane, and Hungerford, and the Lakes shootings, and the St. Lukes Machette attack, and Columbine and...
Having said that - murder rates for the UK, with some of the strictest gun laws in the world, has a murder rate of 0.8 people per 100,000 (2011) compared with an average of 4.7 in the USA.
However Texas, where everyone is habitually armed has a murder-rate of 4.4 (less than average), compared to Washington DC (stricter gun laws) with a rate of 21.9 (2010 figures)
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Indeed bigegg... It's the old cliché that Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Unfortunately guns are far to easy to get hold of in most countries and what is needed is better education.
That said, it appears that this terrible situation wouldn't have been any different with that education and could have been minimised if A N Other person had been armed. Equally, would people be comfortable with sending their 5 year old child to a school where the teachers are armed? Also, would any of those armed teachers have been brave enough to face down the gunman?
It's a tricky one... People (and I mean all people, myself included) find it easy to have these ideas but when it comes to the crunch, would you be willing to put yourself in such a dangerous situation?
I know that one of my biggest downfalls is that I don't like injustice... I have put myself into many situations that, in hindsight, were foolish including several occurrences of breaking up fights between complete strangers (to me). Fortunately (?) SWMBO knows that is just the way I am and that I will continue doing it. The fact that they could be armed never enters my mind until it's too late :-[
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carefull bigegg your making sense,and that will never do nowadays. ;D
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Indeed bigegg... It's the old cliché that Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Unfortunately guns are far to easy to get hold of in most countries and what is needed is better education.
That said, it appears that this terrible situation wouldn't have been any different with that education and could have been minimised if A N Other person had been armed. Equally, would people be comfortable with sending their 5 year old child to a school where the teachers are armed? Also, would any of those armed teachers have been brave enough to face down the gunman?
It's a tricky one... People (and I mean all people, myself included) find it easy to have these ideas but when it comes to the crunch, would you be willing to put yourself in such a dangerous situation?
I know that one of my biggest downfalls is that I don't like injustice... I have put myself into many situations that, in hindsight, were foolish including several occurrences of breaking up fights between complete strangers (to me). Fortunately (?) SWMBO knows that is just the way I am and that I will continue doing it. The fact that they could be armed never enters my mind until it's too late :-[
the boy was carrying sig sauer,glock and an automatic rifle :o :o :o
what kind of gun law is this ???
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according to this:
http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/p/gunlaws_ct.htm (http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/p/gunlaws_ct.htm)
No permit required to possess the Sig, but a permit is needed to possess and carry the handgun(which takes two weeks to process, and lasts five years).
Obviously a glock handgun is regarded as more dangerous than an automatic rifle :-X
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I'm not sure of it's about gun law only as almost nobody mention the gun man's background of family. Even if hard to accept US gun laws impossible to accept how the gun man with mental issues could access to the rifle.
RIP all the innocent victims :'(
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My heart goes out to the families of the victims... :(
I don't want to detract from the main point of this thread by making it into another political discussion but...
Gun law is based upon the mistaken premise that a <person> who is willing to commit murder, rape, kidnap, terrorism or robbery will obey a law which forbids him from illegally equipping himself with a tool to make those things easier.
Gun law removes weapons from the law-abiding, not from criminals - all I can think is that if the teachers had been armed, the killer might have been stopped at two or three victims instead of 20.
And I thought the same after Dunblane, and Hungerford, and the Lakes shootings, and the St. Lukes Machette attack, and Columbine and...
Having said that - murder rates for the UK, with some of the strictest gun laws in the world, has a murder rate of 0.8 people per 100,000 (2011) compared with an average of 4.7 in the USA.
However Texas, where everyone is habitually armed has a murder-rate of 4.4 (less than average), compared to Washington DC (stricter gun laws) with a rate of 21.9 (2010 figures)
I wasn't going to comment on this thread but here goes. I do feel very sorry for all the families affected but I am not in the least bit surprised and neither should anyone especially in the States. Just what do they expect of a society of basically naturally violent individuals when they have the opportunity to blaze away with a weepon? As to the higher murder rates in Washington I would put that down to simply more people packed closely together. My theory is people need their space. You do not get that in densely packed living. Don't believe me? Just watch people in lifts. They stop talking, hide in a corner except when they are the poor unfortunate fifth person to enter. Road rage on crowded motorways, neighbour disputes in cramped housing and so on.
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My heart goes out to the families of the victims... :(
I don't want to detract from the main point of this thread by making it into another political discussion but...
Gun law is based upon the mistaken premise that a <person> who is willing to commit murder, rape, kidnap, terrorism or robbery will obey a law which forbids him from illegally equipping himself with a tool to make those things easier.
Gun law removes weapons from the law-abiding, not from criminals - all I can think is that if the teachers had been armed, the killer might have been stopped at two or three victims instead of 20.
And I thought the same after Dunblane, and Hungerford, and the Lakes shootings, and the St. Lukes Machette attack, and Columbine and...
Having said that - murder rates for the UK, with some of the strictest gun laws in the world, has a murder rate of 0.8 people per 100,000 (2011) compared with an average of 4.7 in the USA.
However Texas, where everyone is habitually armed has a murder-rate of 4.4 (less than average), compared to Washington DC (stricter gun laws) with a rate of 21.9 (2010 figures)
I wasn't going to comment on this thread but here goes. I do feel very sorry for all the families affected but I am not in the least bit surprised and neither should anyone especially in the States. Just what do they expect of a society of basically naturally violent individuals when they have the opportunity to blaze away with a weepon? As to the higher murder rates in Washington I would put that down to simply more people packed closely together. My theory is people need their space. You do not get that in densely packed living. Don't believe me? Just watch people in lifts. They stop talking, hide in a corner except when they are the poor unfortunate fifth person to enter. Road rage on crowded motorways, neighbour disputes in cramped housing and so on.
agreed.. and I wish I had those weapons to open some space for myself >:(
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Just been on the News that he broke into the school, he was not let in as assumed.....
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this will be a statistic in a couple of weeks time.
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It's tragic, just tragic and such an un-necessary loss of young life... :'( :'( :'(
The shocking thing is that we're no longer shocked by these shootings that seem to happen on a regular basis... :-\ This is the EIGHTH mass shooting in the USA this year!!! :o
Why people feel they have a need and a right to own a semi automatic assault rifle is totally beyond me... :( and the fact that people can own them without restrictions is utter utter madness IMO!! :(
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My heart goes out to the families of the victims... :(
I don't want to detract from the main point of this thread by making it into another political discussion but...
Gun law is based upon the mistaken premise that a <person> who is willing to commit murder, rape, kidnap, terrorism or robbery will obey a law which forbids him from illegally equipping himself with a tool to make those things easier.
Gun law removes weapons from the law-abiding, not from criminals - all I can think is that if the teachers had been armed, the killer might have been stopped at two or three victims instead of 20.
And I thought the same after Dunblane, and Hungerford, and the Lakes shootings, and the St. Lukes Machette attack, and Columbine and...
Having said that - murder rates for the UK, with some of the strictest gun laws in the world, has a murder rate of 0.8 people per 100,000 (2011) compared with an average of 4.7 in the USA.
However Texas, where everyone is habitually armed has a murder-rate of 4.4 (less than average), compared to Washington DC (stricter gun laws) with a rate of 21.9 (2010 figures)
I wasn't going to comment on this thread but here goes. I do feel very sorry for all the families affected but I am not in the least bit surprised and neither should anyone especially in the States. Just what do they expect of a society of basically naturally violent individuals when they have the opportunity to blaze away with a weepon? As to the higher murder rates in Washington I would put that down to simply more people packed closely together. My theory is people need their space. You do not get that in densely packed living. Don't believe me? Just watch people in lifts. They stop talking, hide in a corner except when they are the poor unfortunate fifth person to enter. Road rage on crowded motorways, neighbour disputes in cramped housing and so on.
Try Googling "Shootings in Finland 2012" and read the results.
Are the Finns naturally violent individuals?
Do the Finns not have enough space?
Try, instead, reading about the gunman's profile: a loner with a dysfunctional family. Try reading Albs excellent link on the dispensing of psychotic drugs, especially to young people.
IMHO, not enough is done to identify and treat correctly mental instability and personality disorder in today's youth (albeit a tiny minority).
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It is now being reported that the gunman had Asperger's syndrome.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1& (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1&)
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Try Googling "Shootings in Finland 2012" and read the results.
Are the Finns naturally violent individuals?
Do the Finns not have enough space?
Try, instead, reading about the gunman's profile: a loner with a dysfunctional family. Try reading Albs excellent link on the dispensing of psychotic drugs, especially to young people.
IMHO, not enough is done to identify and treat correctly mental instability and personality disorder in today's youth (albeit a tiny minority).
This:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)
states that overall, Finland has a murder rate of 2.2 / 100,000 people which is *much* lower than most of the US, and on a par with the rest of Europe (including the UK).
Finland has a gun-ownership rate of somewhere between 32 and 55 guns per 100 people - according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Finland)
Compare Switzerland, with a murder rate of 0.7 per 100,000 (half the UK's) where there are, according to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland)
Switzerland has a gun ownership rate of 45.7 guns / 100 people - most of which are military issue Sig 550 rifles!
This is a good site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_ownership_rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_ownership_rate)
which lists the UK as 88th in ranking for gun ownership (at 6.2 guns/100 population)
I'm going to run an analysis on the figures, but at first glance, I would say there is little to no correlation between gun ownership and murder rates - obviously there is a correlation between gun-murder and gun ownership, but at first glance, I would say that would-be murderers are able to kill their victims regardless of access to firearms - and this MUST be considered against the potential victim's access to firearms.
As to this particular case
Any country/government or individual who allows a mentally unstable (I'll say that to be charitable) person access to firearms, or knives, or hammers,or cars should be held just as liable for whatever ensues.
I would say that it's not guns which need to be controlled, it's probably merkians...
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It is now being reported that the gunman had Asperger's syndrome.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1& (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1&)
My kid brother (now a young adult) has Asperger's and I've experienced his mood swings and unpredictable reactions first hand many times. In fact, that's why I have (finally!) convinced my mum that he needs to leave home and go into sheltered housing. He will never integrate properly into society but stands a better chance in the right environment, which isn't at home.
I fear that one day I will get a call to say that be has really hurt her, or worse :o As I have explained to her, I can't always drop everything and make the 500 mile round trip when he's getting out of hand :o Although he has improved after the last "chat" I had with him :-X
My point is, though, that it is a very unpredictable condition and someone suffering it can "flip" for the tiniest of things! For him it can be as silly as it's Raining today!
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looking at the picture and probability, if there were stricter gun laws this person could not find too many guns under hand.. if wanted to buy from mafia market his money would be adequate to buy may be only 1 not 3 good guns.. and less people would die.. simples..
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My heart goes out to the families of the victims... :(
I don't want to detract from the main point of this thread by making it into another political discussion but...
Gun law is based upon the mistaken premise that a <person> who is willing to commit murder, rape, kidnap, terrorism or robbery will obey a law which forbids him from illegally equipping himself with a tool to make those things easier.
Gun law removes weapons from the law-abiding, not from criminals - all I can think is that if the teachers had been armed, the killer might have been stopped at two or three victims instead of 20.
And I thought the same after Dunblane, and Hungerford, and the Lakes shootings, and the St. Lukes Machette attack, and Columbine and...
Having said that - murder rates for the UK, with some of the strictest gun laws in the world, has a murder rate of 0.8 people per 100,000 (2011) compared with an average of 4.7 in the USA.
However Texas, where everyone is habitually armed has a murder-rate of 4.4 (less than average), compared to Washington DC (stricter gun laws) with a rate of 21.9 (2010 figures)
I wasn't going to comment on this thread but here goes. I do feel very sorry for all the families affected but I am not in the least bit surprised and neither should anyone especially in the States. Just what do they expect of a society of basically naturally violent individuals when they have the opportunity to blaze away with a weepon? As to the higher murder rates in Washington I would put that down to simply more people packed closely together. My theory is people need their space. You do not get that in densely packed living. Don't believe me? Just watch people in lifts. They stop talking, hide in a corner except when they are the poor unfortunate fifth person to enter. Road rage on crowded motorways, neighbour disputes in cramped housing and so on.
Try Googling "Shootings in Finland 2012" and read the results.
Are the Finns naturally violent individuals?
Do the Finns not have enough space?
Try, instead, reading about the gunman's profile: a loner with a dysfunctional family. Try reading Albs excellent link on the dispensing of psychotic drugs, especially to young people.
IMHO, not enough is done to identify and treat correctly mental instability and personality disorder in today's youth (albeit a tiny minority).
Nick. The human race is a naturally violent species. It is only the norms of society that contains that violence. Without the norms we would very quickly revert to our base level. Be it cruelty to animals, other less fortunate beings on an individual level or organised against ethnic, religous groups or nations. There are examples of this on television EVERY day. So yes the Finns or who ever you name are naturally violent but society stops them from being so in the main.
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looking at the picture and probability, if there were stricter gun laws this person could not find too many guns under hand.. if wanted to buy from mafia market his money would be adequate to buy may be only 1 not 3 good guns.. and less people would die.. simples..
That's why when legally held handguns were banned in the UK the black market was flooded with illegal handguns, the cost came down and gun crime went up. To say that accessbility to legally held guns accross a whole population is the one solution to gun crime is a very narrow minded view IMO, it is much more deeply rooted in the society in which guns exist. I do not fel that eveyone should be entitled to hold firearms, only those who have demonstrated an understanding and culture of safety in to their pysche. Why guns are being allowed in to the hands of people with mental disorders is beyond me.... look at most of the incidents which have involved mass killings, most have been commited by people who have shown evidence of mental distress or a disorder yet they have been allowed to keep firearms :o
I like the German system where you have to take lessons in gun control over a few years while also taking lessons in deer recognition (age/type/sex all in a blink of an eye..... it's very tough) you only get your permit after passing safety and competancy tests on the firearms (including moving targets) as well as passing a 2 hour animal identification exam. I barely passed both and I have been using firearms and hunting since I was young. It is not a perfect system but I feel it keeps most of the unsuitable types out of firearm ownership out.
I was also very suprised by America attitudes toward gun safety, specifically with NRA members. They are depicted as gun toting maniacs in our society. I saw a very different side. They are obsessed with safety and my being in the military and being qualified to manage a shooting range, being qualified on several large gun systems made no difference on their requirement to see how I safe I handled a firearm before I was allowed to hunt with them.
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looking at the picture and probability, if there were stricter gun laws this person could not find too many guns under hand.. if wanted to buy from mafia market his money would be adequate to buy may be only 1 not 3 good guns.. and less people would die.. simples..
That's why when legally held handguns were banned in the UK the black market was flooded with illegal handguns, the cost came down and gun crime went up. To say that accessbility to legally held guns accross a whole population is the one solution to gun crime is a very narrow minded view IMO, it is much more deeply rooted in the society in which guns exist. I do not fel that eveyone should be entitled to hold firearms, only those who have demonstrated an understanding and culture of safety in to their pysche. Why guns are being allowed in to the hands of people with mental disorders is beyond me.... look at most of the incidents which have involved mass killings, most have been commited by people who have shown evidence of mental distress or a disorder yet they have been allowed to keep firearms :o
I like the German system where you have to take lessons in gun control over a few years while also taking lessons in deer recognition (age/type/sex all in a blink of an eye..... it's very tough) you only get your permit after passing safety and competancy tests on the firearms (including moving targets) as well as passing a 2 hour animal identification exam. I barely passed both and I have been using firearms and hunting since I was young. It is not a perfect system but I feel it keeps most of the unsuitable types out of firearm ownership out.
I was also very suprised by America attitudes toward gun safety, specifically with NRA members. They are depicted as gun toting maniacs in our society. I saw a very different side. They are obsessed with safety and my being in the military and being qualified to manage a shooting range, being qualified on several large gun systems made no difference on their requirement to see how I safe I handled a firearm before I was allowed to hunt with them.
when the laws are enough strict and harsh no one will give you a sig sauer or browning for a coke money ;D so your logic is wrong!
here a browning or a sig sauer is around 5500$ without bullets! and if you carry the necessary license!!
so my citizens discovered more natural cheaper tools to kill!! ::) but thanks to prices no mass murder (erm.. rarely!)
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by the way killing the whole self family in police officers with self legal gun is very common! :o
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looking at the picture and probability, if there were stricter gun laws this person could not find too many guns under hand.. if wanted to buy from mafia market his money would be adequate to buy may be only 1 not 3 good guns.. and less people would die.. simples..
That's why when legally held handguns were banned in the UK the black market was flooded with illegal handguns, the cost came down and gun crime went up. To say that accessbility to legally held guns accross a whole population is the one solution to gun crime is a very narrow minded view IMO, it is much more deeply rooted in the society in which guns exist. I do not fel that eveyone should be entitled to hold firearms, only those who have demonstrated an understanding and culture of safety in to their pysche. Why guns are being allowed in to the hands of people with mental disorders is beyond me.... look at most of the incidents which have involved mass killings, most have been commited by people who have shown evidence of mental distress or a disorder yet they have been allowed to keep firearms :o
I like the German system where you have to take lessons in gun control over a few years while also taking lessons in deer recognition (age/type/sex all in a blink of an eye..... it's very tough) you only get your permit after passing safety and competancy tests on the firearms (including moving targets) as well as passing a 2 hour animal identification exam. I barely passed both and I have been using firearms and hunting since I was young. It is not a perfect system but I feel it keeps most of the unsuitable types out of firearm ownership out.
I was also very suprised by America attitudes toward gun safety, specifically with NRA members. They are depicted as gun toting maniacs in our society. I saw a very different side. They are obsessed with safety and my being in the military and being qualified to manage a shooting range, being qualified on several large gun systems made no difference on their requirement to see how I safe I handled a firearm before I was allowed to hunt with them.
when the laws are enough strict and harsh no one will give you a sig sauer or browning for a coke money ;D so your logic is wrong!
here a browning or a sig sauer is around 5500$ without bullets! and if you carry the necessary license!!
ps: assuming you want to buy unused not to risk yourself.. but even second hands are half that price.. and if you try to buy from mafia prices will be double..
so my citizens discovered more natural cheaper tools to kill!! ::) but thanks to prices no mass murder (erm.. rarely!)
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The right to bear arms,lead to the right to shoot kids :-X . Americans need to change the second ammendment.
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I was going to post a picture of the six year old (just saying that reduces me to tears!! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( British born boy who was killed along with so many. However, I just can't............it is just too distressing, and I just cannot imagine what those poor parents are going through. As a mother and grandmother it is just beyond me............little life, new life lost :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
For those who can emotionally stand it on this BBC News link you will see the face of an angel......... :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20745431
Rest little sweet one, with the angels, rest.
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It is now being reported that the gunman had Asperger's syndrome.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1& (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1&)
My kid brother (now a young adult) has Asperger's and I've experienced his mood swings and unpredictable reactions first hand many times. In fact, that's why I have (finally!) convinced my mum that he needs to leave home and go into sheltered housing. He will never integrate properly into society but stands a better chance in the right environment, which isn't at home.
I fear that one day I will get a call to say that be has really hurt her, or worse :o As I have explained to her, I can't always drop everything and make the 500 mile round trip when he's getting out of hand :o Although he has improved after the last "chat" I had with him :-X
My point is, though, that it is a very unpredictable condition and someone suffering it can "flip" for the tiniest of things! For him it can be as silly as it's Raining today!
Thanks for that insightful post. I have, thankfully, no idea of how Asperger's can affect people. Since you have experience, may I ask a direct question? In your opinion, would it be feasible for an Asperger's sufferer to "flip" and carry out this sort of totally despicable act of violence? I cannot imagine even the most evil of evil people would shoot six-year olds at point blank range, but when sanity goes, maybe any rational sense of what constitutes vile behaviour is suspended.
Sadly the original post has reverted to a bit of bashing the Bad Old US of A and her gun laws. Beyond my total disgust at the killings and my heartfelt sympathy for all those who have suffered loss, I am trying to get my head round the mindset of someone who could act with the ultimate barbarity. This has less to do with gun control and more to do with identifying and separating dangerous people from potential victims, either through treatment or incarceration. The killer could, after all, have created almost as much carnage armed with a machete.
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It is now being reported that the gunman had Asperger's syndrome.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1& (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1&)
My kid brother (now a young adult) has Asperger's and I've experienced his mood swings and unpredictable reactions first hand many times. In fact, that's why I have (finally!) convinced my mum that he needs to leave home and go into sheltered housing. He will never integrate properly into society but stands a better chance in the right environment, which isn't at home.
I fear that one day I will get a call to say that be has really hurt her, or worse :o As I have explained to her, I can't always drop everything and make the 500 mile round trip when he's getting out of hand :o Although he has improved after the last "chat" I had with him :-X
My point is, though, that it is a very unpredictable condition and someone suffering it can "flip" for the tiniest of things! For him it can be as silly as it's Raining today!
Thanks for that insightful post. I have, thankfully, no idea of how Asperger's can affect people. Since you have experience, may I ask a direct question? In your opinion, would it be feasible for an Asperger's sufferer to "flip" and carry out this sort of totally despicable act of violence? I cannot imagine even the most evil of evil people would shoot six-year olds at point blank range, but when sanity goes, maybe any rational sense of what constitutes vile behaviour is suspended.
Sadly the original post has reverted to a bit of bashing the Bad Old US of A and USA gun laws. Beyond my total disgust at the killings and my heartfelt sympathy for all those who have suffered loss, I am trying to get my head round the mindset of someone who could act with the ultimate barbarity. This has less to do with gun control and more to do with identifying and separating dangerous people from potential victims, either through treatment or incarceration. The killer could, after all, have created almost as much carnage armed with a machete.
corrected..
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this sad event give a lesson.. all schools must be protected by armed security, and there must be x-ray equipment to control maniacs..
whatever the cost..
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People 'flip' and loose their grip for a variety of reasons drugs, alcohol, illness or just plain old stress!
This is the eighth shooting in America this year. Mass shootings happen elsewhere as well, but at no where near the same frequency as in the USA. In my opinion this is a direct result of their gun control laws! If Adam Lanza's mother didn't/couldn't have a semi automatic assault rifle and a couple of handguns at home, then for sure he could have obtained the weapons illegally even if America had stringent gun laws, but that would have required a degree of planning and maybe he wouldn't have gone through with it. We'll never know....
It's more likely he 'lost it' for some reason, the guns were at hand and he used them!
Nick has said that the same sort of carnage could be caused with a machete, which is true to an extent. China has had a few incidents where nutters have attacked and killed school children with knives, but I doubt Adam Lanza could have killed so many people in one go with a knife.
I think that America's gun control law is extremely relevant to this thread and it should be debated!
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problem stems from the gun industry in USA.. they have strong political relations for centuries.. so they build their laws to sell those guns easily.. blaming a maniac is easy but actual reasons are far deeper than that..
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People 'flip' and loose their grip for a variety of reasons drugs, alcohol, illness or just plain old stress!
This is the eighth shooting in America this year. Mass shootings happen elsewhere as well, but at no where near the same frequency as in the USA. In my opinion this is a direct result of their gun control laws! If Adam Lanza's mother didn't/couldn't have a semi automatic assault rifle and a couple of handguns at home, then for sure he could have obtained the weapons illegally even if America had stringent gun laws, but that would have required a degree of planning and maybe he wouldn't have gone through with it. We'll never know....
It's more likely he 'lost it' for some reason, the guns were at hand and he used them!
Nick has said that the same sort of carnage could be caused with a machete, which is true to an extent. China has had a few incidents where nutters have attacked and killed school children with knives, but I doubt Adam Lanza could have killed so many people in one go with a knife.
I think that America's gun control law is extremely relevant to this thread and it should be debated!
I don't think there's much to debate, really. If the majority of US citizens want gun control, then that's fine (I certainly would not want the right to bear arms introduced in this country). However, given the number of weapons around in the US, I can't in all honesty ever see that such a law would be adhered to. Can you really see all US citizens handing over their guns? No, I don't think so. Access to weaponry will remain relatively easy, IMHO, whatever laws are passed. And remember, too, that it is being reported that the killer's mother was in legal possession of the weapons and was member of a gun club. If this tragedy were to avoided by legislation, then all gun clubs would have to be banned, or members forced to keep their weapons in guarded storage at the club.
However, it's up to the citizens of the USA to make that call.
I'm just more concerned that people with mental instability are free to carry out such attacks. How often do we hear (as in this case) that the killer was a "loner" and had difficulty making friends and mixing in society? I think teachers and parents should be made far more aware of personality disorders and treatment sought. Remember that man who was let out ("Care in the Community") and pushed an innocent female bystander under a tube train in London? Or, even more recently, that man who ran up to a complete stranger and punched her unconscious in the street (on Crimewatch the other week)? Random acts of violence by people who should be in secure care. Those people will still be around with or without gun control. They will still be able to wreak their twisted revenge on the innocents, if not with guns, then with fists, knives, arson or explosives.
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problem stems from the gun industry in USA.. they have strong political relations for centuries.. so they build their laws to sell those guns easily.. blaming a maniac is easy but actual reasons are far deeper than that..
and besides , I see interesting views on that event..
telling that there will always be maniacs around which can easily get unlicensed guns is whole nonsense..
as a state, your duty is to protect your citizen.. if you cant do that, resign and let someone who can do it ,be selected..
you can spend money to collect all guns, fight with mafia not to sell any like you did for heroin.. in case necessary ,apply very harsh punishment ..
but of course these facts are very far from reality in a capitalist system where politicians have strong relations with mafia and gun industry.. >:(
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We'll never be able to stop random attacks by unstable people, but we can limit the damage they can cause......
For what it's worth I'm not anti-gun by any means. I have owned and used guns myself in the past (Legally!) and I think that in this country we have it about right with our gun control laws, yet other countries have more liberal laws than ours and don't seem to have the problems that they do in the US.....
I still think however that it is utterly insane to allow people to keep weapons such as semi automatic assault rifles, which are designed to kill people not deer!
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sunday picnic :o ;D ;D ;D thank god I dont have neighbours like those ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lkCc6y9MpM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lkCc6y9MpM)
seems like USA have a long way to go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQnU1t7UzgM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQnU1t7UzgM)
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this sad event give a lesson.. all schools must be protected by armed security, and there must be x-ray equipment to control maniacs..
whatever the cost..
All schools? There are thousands of them. Armed security? X-ray machines? To prevent the very rare oppswit whose got a grudge and managed to find a gun?
Who wants to live like that?
Where do you stop? Anti aircraft missile emplacements just in case the next bunch of nutters mistake St Chav's Primary School for a couple of towers on the skyline?
Whatever the cost is easy to say, but utterly impossible to achieve. And trying it makes for a worse situation than you were trying to avoid.
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this sad event give a lesson.. all schools must be protected by armed security, and there must be x-ray equipment to control maniacs..
whatever the cost..
All schools? There are thousands of them. Armed security? X-ray machines? To prevent the very rare oppswit whose got a grudge and managed to find a gun?
Who wants to live like that?
Where do you stop? Anti aircraft missile emplacements just in case the next bunch of nutters mistake St Chav's Primary School for a couple of towers on the skyline?
Whatever the cost is easy to say, but utterly impossible to achieve. And trying it makes for a worse situation than you were trying to avoid.
if you want to stop this tragedy happening again you have 2 ways .. either stop selling the guns and collect them, or protect critical areas.. choose one of them.. or watch what happens and blame the maniacs.. ::)
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america will never give up its guns, and even if it did, the place is so saturated with arms, it only takes one person to hide one under the bed and it get into the wrong hands and the whole process of eradcating arms will be a complete waste of time.
as said so often on here, the rules are not needed for the people who abide by them.
The arms industry in the U.S is too powerfull, it employs/involves too many people who vote for its leader. They wont tolerate a blow to the economy and their income and their supply of their guns etc etc.
on the face of it, it seems the hypocrcy of the situation is obvious, as the mother of the perpatrator apparently owned the guns, from what the media are saying...?
why on earth does a mother of two and a teacher at a school need one asault rifle, never mind three ...? never mind a parent of a possibly mentally unstable young adult.
if looking into the progresion of a gun culture and making it safer, given its totaly embedded in the countrys foundations, the ADDITION of a body or an organistaion responsible for stricter controls of screening of licenses might be a way forward.
obviuosly parents of a child with psychological issues might be considered worthy of restriction, for what its worth. At least identifying individuals capable of flipping a lid would be sensible, providing jobs for those responsible for controlling them etcetc.
If the U.S already has this then they need to beef it up, and charge gun owners for the pleaure.
Maybe. ;D
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america will never give up its guns, and even if it did, the place is so saturated with arms, it only takes one person to hide one under the bed and it get into the wrong hands and the whole process of eradcating arms will be a complete waste of time.
as said so often on here, the rules are not needed for the people who abide by them.
The arms industry in the U.S is too powerfull, it employs/involves too many people who vote for its leader. They wont tolerate a blow to the economy and their income and their supply of their guns etc etc.
on the face of it, it seems the hypocrcy of the situation is obvious, as the mother of the perpatrator apparently owned the guns, from what the media are saying...?
why on earth does a mother of two and a teacher at a school need one asault rifle, never mind three ...? never mind a parent of a possibly mentally unstable young adult.
if looking into the progresion of a gun culture and making it safer, given its totaly embedded in the countrys foundations, the ADDITION of a body or an organistaion responsible for stricter controls of screening of licenses might be a way forward.
obviuosly parents of a child with psychological issues might be considered worthy of restriction, for what its worth. At least identifying individuals capable of flipping a lid would be sensible, providing jobs for those responsible for controlling them etcetc.
If the U.S already has this then they need to beef it up, and charge gun owners for the pleasure.
Maybe. ;D
valid points Chris..
my country charges serious amount of yearly tax for gun owners.. unless you are a soldier , police or govt worker..
and besides thats valid for a hand gun.. but if you are caught with an automatic rifle (wherever) you are finished.. the least punishment you will get is to be beaten for many days then you will be accepted as a member of terrorist organization and you can forget about your freedom for long long years..
however, I think still we are ignoring one factor.. not only mentally unstable persons also normal persons can do similiar things when they become angry.. people who loose their jobs, people who have problem with some group(s), and from various reasons same/similiar can happen.. for example some years ago in İstanbul, mafia had a bloody duel in a very crowded restaurant and many people died and wounded..
so,most angry persons is a potential risk if they have access to guns
for one thing I'm very sure, the solution is never to arm every person and convert whole country to an arms storehouse.. ;D
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too late ;)
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too late ;)
its never too late Chris.. there are always things that can be done to reverse the situation.. otherwise same things will happen over and over.. :y
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It is now being reported that the gunman had Asperger's syndrome.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1& (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1&)
My kid brother (now a young adult) has Asperger's and I've experienced his mood swings and unpredictable reactions first hand many times. In fact, that's why I have (finally!) convinced my mum that he needs to leave home and go into sheltered housing. He will never integrate properly into society but stands a better chance in the right environment, which isn't at home.
I fear that one day I will get a call to say that be has really hurt her, or worse :o As I have explained to her, I can't always drop everything and make the 500 mile round trip when he's getting out of hand :o Although he has improved after the last "chat" I had with him :-X
My point is, though, that it is a very unpredictable condition and someone suffering it can "flip" for the tiniest of things! For him it can be as silly as it's Raining today!
Thanks for that insightful post. I have, thankfully, no idea of how Asperger's can affect people. Since you have experience, may I ask a direct question? In your opinion, would it be feasible for an Asperger's sufferer to "flip" and carry out this sort of totally despicable act of violence? I cannot imagine even the most evil of evil people would shoot six-year olds at point blank range, but when sanity goes, maybe any rational sense of what constitutes vile behaviour is suspended.
Sadly the original post has reverted to a bit of bashing the Bad Old US of A and her gun laws. Beyond my total disgust at the killings and my heartfelt sympathy for all those who have suffered loss, I am trying to get my head round the mindset of someone who could act with the ultimate barbarity. This has less to do with gun control and more to do with identifying and separating dangerous people from potential victims, either through treatment or incarceration. The killer could, after all, have created almost as much carnage armed with a machete.
Sorry Nick, not been online today.
Yes, IME it is entirely possible that if he truly suffers Asperger's that something as trivial as not liking the weather could make him "flip".
My brother has been known to have a complete plot loss over the fact that it's snowing :o I know it's frustrating sometimes but we're talking about a 19 year old lad who doesn't leave the house for weeks on end unless forced to :o
Fortunately he is no longer showing violence towards our mother (as a general rule) after the last visit I paid. He is now 19 years old and I pointed out to him that if he wants to fight he should pick on me, which he tried :-X :-X But over the years he has managed to kick pretty much every door off it's hinges, punch holes in walls, smash windows, smash up anything he gets frustrated with..... The list goes on.
It's very distressing to watch on and know there is very little that can be done. It took several years to finally get a diagnosis but once that was made there is very little that can be done to help. He is completely incapable of even the smallest of tasks, although I'm sure that living at home with mum didn't help that, and will lose his temper at the slightest thing. I have managed to get him to control his anger a little, but only when under my roof.
But, I have to say, if he truly was diagnosed with Asperger's then there really shouldn't have been any form of weapon anywhere near him :o Every time the phone rings at a strange time I fear it's a call from Yorkshire and that I'll need to be in the car. I'm hoping that there will be progress in moving him out in the new year. I did consider moving him in with me a couple of years ago but I wouldn't be comfortable leaving him at home with the animals, never mind SWMBO :o
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It is now being reported that the gunman had Asperger's syndrome.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1& (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1&)
My kid brother (now a young adult) has Asperger's and I've experienced his mood swings and unpredictable reactions first hand many times. In fact, that's why I have (finally!) convinced my mum that he needs to leave home and go into sheltered housing. He will never integrate properly into society but stands a better chance in the right environment, which isn't at home.
I fear that one day I will get a call to say that be has really hurt her, or worse :o As I have explained to her, I can't always drop everything and make the 500 mile round trip when he's getting out of hand :o Although he has improved after the last "chat" I had with him :-X
My point is, though, that it is a very unpredictable condition and someone suffering it can "flip" for the tiniest of things! For him it can be as silly as it's Raining today!
The following came into my facebook today from an organisation called 'Always-Unique-Totally-Intelligent-Sometimes-Mysterious' an American site on those with ASD and their families, and linked to the following.
IME those with Aspergers and not so agressive but some with high end Autism can be and can 'turn' for no apparent to the non autistic person, not so sure I agree to everything said but I guess they were going to react....
I quote: While an official has said that the 20-year-old gunman in the Connecticut school shooting had Asperger's syndrome, experts say there is no connection between the disorder and violence.
Asperger's is a mild form of autism often characterized by social awkwardness.
"There really is no clear association between Asperger's and violent behavior," said psychologist Elizabeth Laugeson, an assistant clinical professor at the University of California, Los Angeles.
Little is known about Adam Lanza, identified by police as the shooter in the Friday massacre at a Newtown, Conn., elementary school. He fatally shot his mother before going to the school and killing 20 young children, six adults and himself, authorities said.
A law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the person was not authorized to discuss the unfolding investigation, said Lanza had been diagnosed with Asperger's.
High school classmates and others have described him as bright but painfully shy, anxious and a loner. Those kinds of symptoms are consistent with Asperger's, said psychologist Eric Butter of Nationwide Children's Hospital in Columbus, Ohio, who treats autism, including Asperger's, but has no knowledge of Lanza's case.
Research suggests people with autism do have a higher rate of aggressive behavior — outbursts, shoving or pushing or angry shouting — than the general population, he said.
"But we are not talking about the kind of planned and intentional type of violence we have seen at Newtown," he said in an email.
"These types of tragedies have occurred at the hands of individuals with many different types of personalities and psychological profiles," he added.
Autism is a developmental disorder that can range from mild to severe. Asperger's generally is thought of as a mild form. Both autism and Asperger's can be characterized by poor social skills, repetitive behavior or interests and problems communicating. Unlike classic autism, Asperger's does not typically involve delays in mental development or speech.
Experts say those with autism and related disorders are sometimes diagnosed with other mental health problems, such as depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder or obsessive-compulsive disorder.
"I think it's far more likely that what happened may have more to do with some other kind of mental health condition like depression or anxiety rather than Asperger's," Laugeson said.
She said those with Asperger's tend to focus on rules and be very law-abiding.
"There's something more to this," she said. "We just don't know what that is yet."
After much debate, the term Asperger's is being dropped from the diagnostic manual used by the nation's psychiatrists. In changes approved earlier this month, Asperger's will be incorporated under the umbrella term "autism spectrum disorder" for all the ranges of autism.
End of quote. I will be interested to see what happens in this country, oh and for information the latest stats for a child with ASD is 1 in 80............
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It is now being reported that the gunman had Asperger's syndrome.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1& (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1&)
My kid brother (now a young adult) has Asperger's and I've experienced his mood swings and unpredictable reactions first hand many times. In fact, that's why I have (finally!) convinced my mum that he needs to leave home and go into sheltered housing. He will never integrate properly into society but stands a better chance in the right environment, which isn't at home.
I fear that one day I will get a call to say that be has really hurt her, or worse :o As I have explained to her, I can't always drop everything and make the 500 mile round trip when he's getting out of hand :o Although he has improved after the last "chat" I had with him :-X
My point is, though, that it is a very unpredictable condition and someone suffering it can "flip" for the tiniest of things! For him it can be as silly as it's Raining today!
Thanks for that insightful post. I have, thankfully, no idea of how Asperger's can affect people. Since you have experience, may I ask a direct question? In your opinion, would it be feasible for an Asperger's sufferer to "flip" and carry out this sort of totally despicable act of violence? I cannot imagine even the most evil of evil people would shoot six-year olds at point blank range, but when sanity goes, maybe any rational sense of what constitutes vile behaviour is suspended.
Sadly the original post has reverted to a bit of bashing the Bad Old US of A and her gun laws. Beyond my total disgust at the killings and my heartfelt sympathy for all those who have suffered loss, I am trying to get my head round the mindset of someone who could act with the ultimate barbarity. This has less to do with gun control and more to do with identifying and separating dangerous people from potential victims, either through treatment or incarceration. The killer could, after all, have created almost as much carnage armed with a machete.
I quite agree, there is more to this that we are yet aware, and being Autistic is unlikely to be the reason, on it's own, but we do not know all the facts, maybe never will nor may the American authorities, sadly, and this could just be put down to another dreadful occurrence. Also re gun crime, this sort of thing has happened in this country as well as others, again, imho, gun laws are not to blame....
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Interesting Vamps. I have to agree and disagree with parts. Yes, they do "obey rules" when they want to. There was one occasion where he and mum were out walking... He must have been about 11 or 12 and asked if he could walk on ahead. The answer was yes, but wait for me at the bridge. She got to the bridge and he was nowhere to be seen. She went home and he wasn't there, searched around for a couple of hours and still couldn't find him. Another hour went by and then I got the call... He's disappeared! Jumped in the car and got about 90 mins up the road before I got another call... Found him!
Now here's where it gets interesting... He thought they were walking to Easby Abbey, about 4 miles away, (because that's what he wanted to do!) where there is a bridge just before they get there. That's where she found him... Sat waiting at the bridge! He's been there foe about 3 or 4 hours :o :o
But some sufferers do show violent behaviour. That said, he does also have other issues ::) He was her 40th birthday present and completely unplanned :-X ::) Against all advice she refused to have many of the recommended tests as she refused point blank to consider a termination and he was born with some minor symptoms and traits of Down's Syndrome too. It took about 14 years for mum to admit that she might have made the wrong decision :o
Like I said, in my experience it is conceivable that it could have played a part. But I only make that judgement based upon my experiences with Jack (my brother) and his combination of problems ;)
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Interesting posts, Vamps. :y :y
This is getting to the core of the problem. No-one, we would think, would shoot young children at point blank range...yet someone did. The mindset of the killer is something that most rational people could not even contemplate. And yet, we have to if we are to if we are to prevent similar outrages occurring in the future.
Thanks for bringing the debate above the pure gun-control dimension. Gun control, in itself, does not address the problem of individuals acting outside the realms of morality. We need to focus more on the causes, not the actions.
We are almost contemplating human madness. Horrid to imagine for anyone that is sane. :(
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Interesting Vamps. I have to agree and disagree with parts. Yes, they do "obey rules" when they want to. There was one occasion where he and mum were out walking... He must have been about 11 or 12 and asked if he could walk on ahead. The answer was yes, but wait for me at the bridge. She got to the bridge and he was nowhere to be seen. She went home and he wasn't there, searched around for a couple of hours and still couldn't find him. Another hour went by and then I got the call... He's disappeared! Jumped in the car and got about 90 mins up the road before I got another call... Found him!
Now here's where it gets interesting... He thought they were walking to Easby Abbey, about 4 miles away, (because that's what he wanted to do!) where there is a bridge just before they get there. That's where she found him... Sat waiting at the bridge! He's been there foe about 3 or 4 hours :o :o
But some sufferers do show violent behaviour. That said, he does also have other issues ::) He was her 40th birthday present and completely unplanned :-X ::) Against all advice she refused to have many of the recommended tests as she refused point blank to consider a termination and he was born with some minor symptoms and traits of Down's Syndrome too. It took about 14 years for mum to admit that she might have made the wrong decision :o
Like I said, in my experience it is conceivable that it could have played a part. But I only make that judgement based upon my experiences with Jack (my brother) and his combination of problems ;)
I am in no way judging your Mums thoughts but all the parents I know with children with autism, mostly severe, still love their child even though some are frightened by them, it's their unpredictable behaviour that does it. Most children with autism are very literal and rigid in their thinking, their world is different to ours, but then you know that having lived with it.
It is a very difficult subject and no two children are the same, I know many who do not speak which creates frustration which turns to aggressive behaviour, I know some families who have 'Panic Alarms' fitted to call reinforcements........tis a complicated issue, they are all different and do not fit into ticky boxes, and I am no psychiatrist..... :)
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Interesting Vamps. I have to agree and disagree with parts. Yes, they do "obey rules" when they want to. There was one occasion where he and mum were out walking... He must have been about 11 or 12 and asked if he could walk on ahead. The answer was yes, but wait for me at the bridge. She got to the bridge and he was nowhere to be seen. She went home and he wasn't there, searched around for a couple of hours and still couldn't find him. Another hour went by and then I got the call... He's disappeared! Jumped in the car and got about 90 mins up the road before I got another call... Found him!
Now here's where it gets interesting... He thought they were walking to Easby Abbey, about 4 miles away, (because that's what he wanted to do!) where there is a bridge just before they get there. That's where she found him... Sat waiting at the bridge! He's been there foe about 3 or 4 hours :o :o
But some sufferers do show violent behaviour. That said, he does also have other issues ::) He was her 40th birthday present and completely unplanned :-X ::) Against all advice she refused to have many of the recommended tests as she refused point blank to consider a termination and he was born with some minor symptoms and traits of Down's Syndrome too. It took about 14 years for mum to admit that she might have made the wrong decision :o
Like I said, in my experience it is conceivable that it could have played a part. But I only make that judgement based upon my experiences with Jack (my brother) and his combination of problems ;)
I am in no way judging your Mums thoughts but all the parents I know with children with autism, mostly severe, still love their child even though some are frightened by them, it's their unpredictable behaviour that does it. Most children with autism are very literal and rigid in their thinking, their world is different to ours, but then you know that having lived with it.
It is a very difficult subject and no two children are the same, I know many who do not speak which creates frustration which turns to aggressive behaviour, I know some families who have 'Panic Alarms' fitted to call reinforcements........tis a complicated issue, they are all different and do not fit into ticky boxes, and I am no psychiatrist..... :)
Sorry, my wording wasn't the best. In no way does she regret having him (most of the time ::)) but regrets not having the relevant tests so she knew what to expect, although there is no test for Autism during pregnancy.
The trouble is, she hasn't helped the situation in the way she has treated him growing up. He is much better behaved when I am around but I have always treated him "normally" and never let him get away with playing up.
I'm hoping that by moving him out and making him more independent, but with the safety of "supervision", he will become more "normal" and possibly even learn to integrate with society a little. :-\
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But, as you say, every case is different and doesn't fit ticky boxes :-X
Part of me feels some guilt in that things may have been different if I had been around more. He's 16 years younger than me and I was the only "Father Figure" in his life :o But I also had my own life to build :-\ Certainly he wouldn't (and doesn't) get away with some of his less appealing traits when I'm around :o
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Interesting Vamps. I have to agree and disagree with parts. Yes, they do "obey rules" when they want to. There was one occasion where he and mum were out walking... He must have been about 11 or 12 and asked if he could walk on ahead. The answer was yes, but wait for me at the bridge. She got to the bridge and he was nowhere to be seen. She went home and he wasn't there, searched around for a couple of hours and still couldn't find him. Another hour went by and then I got the call... He's disappeared! Jumped in the car and got about 90 mins up the road before I got another call... Found him!
Now here's where it gets interesting... He thought they were walking to Easby Abbey, about 4 miles away, (because that's what he wanted to do!) where there is a bridge just before they get there. That's where she found him... Sat waiting at the bridge! He's been there foe about 3 or 4 hours :o :o
But some sufferers do show violent behaviour. That said, he does also have other issues ::) He was her 40th birthday present and completely unplanned :-X ::) Against all advice she refused to have many of the recommended tests as she refused point blank to consider a termination and he was born with some minor symptoms and traits of Down's Syndrome too. It took about 14 years for mum to admit that she might have made the wrong decision :o
Like I said, in my experience it is conceivable that it could have played a part. But I only make that judgement based upon my experiences with Jack (my brother) and his combination of problems ;)
I am in no way judging your Mums thoughts but all the parents I know with children with autism, mostly severe, still love their child even though some are frightened by them, it's their unpredictable behaviour that does it. Most children with autism are very literal and rigid in their thinking, their world is different to ours, but then you know that having lived with it.
It is a very difficult subject and no two children are the same, I know many who do not speak which creates frustration which turns to aggressive behaviour, I know some families who have 'Panic Alarms' fitted to call reinforcements........tis a complicated issue, they are all different and do not fit into ticky boxes, and I am no psychiatrist..... :)
Sorry, my wording wasn't the best. In no way does she regret having him (most of the time ::)) but regrets not having the relevant tests so she knew what to expect, although there is no test for Autism during pregnancy.
The trouble is, she hasn't helped the situation in the way she has treated him growing up. He is much better behaved when I am around but I have always treated him "normally" and never let him get away with playing up.
I'm hoping that by moving him out and making him more independent, but with the safety of "supervision", he will become more "normal" and possibly even learn to integrate with society a little. :-\
He is 'Normal' Paul, it is just that his 'normal' is different from ours.... :y I spend every day trying to encourage as much independence as possible, age related, for children with disabilities.. :y I am not sure how old your brother is,might have missed that.. :-\ but agree fully with him moving into some form of 'independent living' with appropriate supervision, he needs his own life and your Mum needs hers back... :y
Mind, you are lucky that such support is available as for Aspergers diagnosed up here get little or no support from Social Services........ :-X :-X
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But, as you say, every case is different and doesn't fit ticky boxes :-X
Part of me feels some guilt in that things may have been different if I had been around more. He's 16 years younger than me and I was the only "Father Figure" in his life :o But I also had my own life to build :-\ Certainly he wouldn't (and doesn't) get away with some of his less appealing traits when I'm around :o
Sounds like we need a chat sometime...... :y
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Interesting Vamps. I have to agree and disagree with parts. Yes, they do "obey rules" when they want to. There was one occasion where he and mum were out walking... He must have been about 11 or 12 and asked if he could walk on ahead. The answer was yes, but wait for me at the bridge. She got to the bridge and he was nowhere to be seen. She went home and he wasn't there, searched around for a couple of hours and still couldn't find him. Another hour went by and then I got the call... He's disappeared! Jumped in the car and got about 90 mins up the road before I got another call... Found him!
Now here's where it gets interesting... He thought they were walking to Easby Abbey, about 4 miles away, (because that's what he wanted to do!) where there is a bridge just before they get there. That's where she found him... Sat waiting at the bridge! He's been there foe about 3 or 4 hours :o :o
But some sufferers do show violent behaviour. That said, he does also have other issues ::) He was her 40th birthday present and completely unplanned :-X ::) Against all advice she refused to have many of the recommended tests as she refused point blank to consider a termination and he was born with some minor symptoms and traits of Down's Syndrome too. It took about 14 years for mum to admit that she might have made the wrong decision :o
Like I said, in my experience it is conceivable that it could have played a part. But I only make that judgement based upon my experiences with Jack (my brother) and his combination of problems ;)
I am in no way judging your Mums thoughts but all the parents I know with children with autism, mostly severe, still love their child even though some are frightened by them, it's their unpredictable behaviour that does it. Most children with autism are very literal and rigid in their thinking, their world is different to ours, but then you know that having lived with it.
It is a very difficult subject and no two children are the same, I know many who do not speak which creates frustration which turns to aggressive behaviour, I know some families who have 'Panic Alarms' fitted to call reinforcements........tis a complicated issue, they are all different and do not fit into ticky boxes, and I am no psychiatrist..... :)
Sorry, my wording wasn't the best. In no way does she regret having him (most of the time ::)) but regrets not having the relevant tests so she knew what to expect, although there is no test for Autism during pregnancy.
The trouble is, she hasn't helped the situation in the way she has treated him growing up. He is much better behaved when I am around but I have always treated him "normally" and never let him get away with playing up.
I'm hoping that by moving him out and making him more independent, but with the safety of "supervision", he will become more "normal" and possibly even learn to integrate with society a little. :-\
He is 'Normal' Paul, it is just that his 'normal' is different from ours.... :y I spend every day trying to encourage as much independence as possible, age related, for children with disabilities.. :y I am not sure how old your brother is,might have missed that.. :-\ but agree fully with him moving into some form of 'independent living' with appropriate supervision, he needs his own life and your Mum needs hers back... :y
Mind, you are lucky that such support is available as for Aspergers diagnosed up here get little or no support from Social Services........ :-X :-X
He's 19 now ;) And he is only a little south of you in North Yorkshire ;)
TBH, a very switched on social worker has been helping... I believe they are using his violence against mum as the reason to get him homed (from the point of her safety) :-\
As for normal... I know, that's why I put "normal" ;)
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But, as you say, every case is different and doesn't fit ticky boxes :-X
Part of me feels some guilt in that things may have been different if I had been around more. He's 16 years younger than me and I was the only "Father Figure" in his life :o But I also had my own life to build :-\ Certainly he wouldn't (and doesn't) get away with some of his less appealing traits when I'm around :o
Sounds like we need a chat sometime...... :y
We did touch on it briefly at the lakes last year and have discussed via PM a few times ;)
When she rang tonight she had things to say but couldn't because he was around so there may have been some developments :y
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But, as you say, every case is different and doesn't fit ticky boxes :-X
Part of me feels some guilt in that things may have been different if I had been around more. He's 16 years younger than me and I was the only "Father Figure" in his life :o But I also had my own life to build :-\ Certainly he wouldn't (and doesn't) get away with some of his less appealing traits when I'm around :o
Sounds like we need a chat sometime...... :y
We did touch on it briefly at the lakes last year and have discussed via PM a few times ;)When she rang tonight she had things to say but couldn't because he was around so there may have been some developments :y
Yes, I know, but things progress, but it sounds like you have it all under control, but the offer is always there........... :y
-
But, as you say, every case is different and doesn't fit ticky boxes :-X
Part of me feels some guilt in that things may have been different if I had been around more. He's 16 years younger than me and I was the only "Father Figure" in his life :o But I also had my own life to build :-\ Certainly he wouldn't (and doesn't) get away with some of his less appealing traits when I'm around :o
Sounds like we need a chat sometime...... :y
We did touch on it briefly at the lakes last year and have discussed via PM a few times ;)When she rang tonight she had things to say but couldn't because he was around so there may have been some developments :y
Yes, I know, but things progress, but it sounds like you have it all under control, but the offer is always there........... :y
Thanks :y
Anyway... That's plenty of Thread Hijacking for tonight :-[
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But, as you say, every case is different and doesn't fit ticky boxes :-X
Part of me feels some guilt in that things may have been different if I had been around more. He's 16 years younger than me and I was the only "Father Figure" in his life :o But I also had my own life to build :-\ Certainly he wouldn't (and doesn't) get away with some of his less appealing traits when I'm around :o
Sounds like we need a chat sometime...... :y
We did touch on it briefly at the lakes last year and have discussed via PM a few times ;)When she rang tonight she had things to say but couldn't because he was around so there may have been some developments :y
Yes, I know, but things progress, but it sounds like you have it all under control, but the offer is always there........... :y
Thanks :y
Anyway... That's plenty of Thread Hijacking for tonight :-[
Indeed, and I am working the week up to Christmas, including Christmas Eve for the first time for at least 16 years..... ::) ::) ::)