Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: kluku5 on 28 February 2013, 15:51:00
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Hello.
Can someone tell me exactly what these fault codes mean, how do i fix them, and if they are responsible for knock in engine (further below):
57 Idle Air Control Voltage Low
94 Hall Sensor Voltage High
Now about the knock.
Cylinder nr. 3 stopped working, so i check the plug wires etc. Eventually changed the wires, DIS pack, spark plugs and cam cover gaskets. Now all cylinders work, but theres this knock in top area of my engine. I don't think it sounds like misfire, but I don't know for sure. It didn't have this knock before (it's been standing since november I think), but now all of the sudden it's there. Could it be that engine belt has jumped a tooth when I started it, after it just stood still for so long (have to change it in 5000km, so it's quite old too)?
Oh and EML light is on too when engine is running.
So as always any help is welcome :)
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Difficult to diagnose a knock without hearing it. Top end - could possibly be a sticky lifter - if so a couple of quick oil changes may help.
Codes - try cleaning ICV (Idle control valve) and lightly oiling it ;)
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Will try :)
Can you tell me what the hall sensor even is? And how can I fix that, or is it possible to fix that by lubing ICV as well?
Thank you for your help :)
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Don't know about the sensor, but I think it would be well worth checking the belt, just in case :y
Been there :-X
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Hall sensor, commonly known as camshaft sensor is located on passenger side head at front and fits into a hole in the front cam bearing, held in with one torx bolt
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z257/belisensis/V6CAMSENSOR_zpsd0c1f04f.jpg)
Cam (Hall) sensor basically relays info to engine ECU re; which piston is currently being fired
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Cheers Rob :y
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Unusual for cam sensor problems on V6s (altho I did have a faulty on on the 2.6V6), so I would deal with the ICV first.
Symptoms we had with duff cam sensor was tendency to stall as revs dropped.
HTH ;)
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While I was doing the LPG conversion I fired the car up and i had forgotten to plug in the ICV and TPS. The CID came up with a gearbox fault!!! Strange how the system gets in a twist
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Well thank you people :)
So, I'll start with ICV and see if that fixes my fault codes, and if it doesent' should I replace the cam sensor?
I'll also do some quick oil changes as suggested, payday is coming soon :D. Should I also replace the oil filter?
And If it still knocks, I guess I'll take it to a shop for belt change :P
Thanks again, don't know where would I be with my car without OOF
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Well thank you people :)
So, I'll start with ICV and see if that fixes my fault codes, and if it doesent' should I replace the cam sensor?
I'll also do some quick oil changes as suggested, payday is coming soon :D. Should I also replace the oil filter?
And If it still knocks, I guess I'll take it to a shop for belt change :P
Thanks again, don't know where would I be with my car without OOF
:y
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Ok so.
I found out today that the cam sensor plug was disconnected lol :P. I plugged it and voila, no fault codes, engine ran much more smoothly, there was still some faint knocking, but it dissapeared when engine got warm. But, I did a short test-drive, and at a junction little uphill, when I released the brakes and gave some throttle, the engine just stalled out of the blue. Also at around 30 km/h the car starts to vibrate quite much. I couldn't understand exactly, but I hope it is because it's just frozen somewhere. I am going to look it over with a more experienced friend later, but if you have any ideas, please share them :)
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Crank sensor on some other car was falling apart and making knocking noise. I used some glue to fix it. I spent many hours diagnosing the problem.
Get a stethoscope and try to locate knock.
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I drove the car a bit yesterday and the knock is now gone, I think it was a lifter? Also gone is the vibration, something really was frozen :P Now the last thing to fix is low idle (500 rpm). Cleaned the ICV, today doing EGR. If these won't help, what do you think it could be?
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5-600 idle is about right with the air con switched off. Mine idle as low as 400 sometimes with it switched off. Not a lot you can do about it im afraid
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Yeah, still running rough. It appears that one cylinder still isn't working, allowed CO is 0.3 and I have 3.778. Although it's better after I changed DIS pack, plugs and leads. I am out of ideas, taking it to a shop tomorrow, maybe they can find and see which/why one of the cylinders is not working.
Thanks everybody :)
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Did you use new dis pac and leads when you replaced them or were they used, as you might have installed faulty parts., check the plug holes for oil as the cam cover gaskets might have failed and the missfire is caused by that.
Gary.
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Yes, I replaced DIS pack, plugs and leads, cam cover gaskets all new. Plug wells were quite oily, but I suppose because of old gaskets :P
Cheers anyway :P
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Well now..
Took it to a garage, they managed to fix it eventually, so I finally passed MOT. There seemed to be a problem with plug leads. They told me that I had connected everything correctly, however, after they played with the leads for a while, they got it working great.
But,
As I drove it today, I noticed that it doesen't have the power it used to. Also at about 5500 rpm and about 80-100 km/h the power suddenly drops alot, kind of reminds me like the clutch would be slipping. It's an auto. Anyone have an idea what could it be?
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Update:
I think I might as well push my car off a cliff. The engine just died on an out of town road when I braked, so I managed to pull over. When trying to start the engine, the car does nothing. The starter wont even turn. I thought it may be the starter, but that wouldn't explain why it just died while driving. I tested the gearbox too before it died, I put it in 1st, then 2nd, and at 4500 rpm it hits a wall, and while briefly keeping that momentum, the engine light lit up, then I immediatly let go of the throttle. Then I put it in 3rd, then D. But it didn't want change to 4th, but kept it in 3rd. Then engine died etc. When slowly raising speed, it does go over 4500 rpm, but when trying to kickdown, a wall comes at 4500 rpm.
Also now have these fault codes:
73 Mass Air Flow Sensor Voltage Low
88 A/C Cutoff Relay Voltage High
So if anyone can make sense of that post and has an idea about whats wrong then Please do help :)
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Ask myself answer myself lol :D
I found out that it didn't turn over because the starter motor got stuck. We hit it a couple of times with a hammer, tried to start and voila :P Can I just lube it or do I have to find a replacement one?
After doing some research here on OOF, I believe it to be crank sensor. Someone had posted in another topic that a MAF fault code can mean an almost broken crank sensor, plus my car only runs for some seconds, then goes really rough and dies eventually. And I only got to 5000rpm, then got back to 4500 rpm, pedal to the floor, so I guess that is also causing the no power problem. On top of that I discovered that one cam cover is leaking oil again :S.
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Update!
Changed the stat (ain't that a bitch to do lol) and crank sensor.
Still can't hit the limiter, and runs very poor, won't idle at all. Did the paperclip tests and got the following:
13 O2 Sensor 1 Open Circuit
31 No Engine RPM Signal (usual I know)
73 Mass Air Flow Sensor Voltage Low
89 O2 Sensor 2 Open Circuit
Searched OOF but couldn't find an answer, so can anyone suggest if I need to replace lamba or could something else be the fault now?
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Unplug the MAF mate and try it then. If its better you need a replacement maf (don't try and clean it - it usually completely kills it)
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Tried it. The EML light comes on when it's disconnected, but since the engine runs so poorly, I couldn't tell if it's better or worse :(
I also failed to mention before, that exhaust smoke comes from under the plenum somewhere, A LOT when revving and then letting up the throttle. So I thought that probably exhaust manifold(s) is/are leaking somewhere, and because of that the lambda doesen't work corrrectly. At least someone in another topic here said something along those lines.
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To keep you updated:
I ordered a used bosch MAF today for 20€ just to try with a different one, since I don't know anyone that has the same MAF on their car.
I hope it comes tomorrow, but considering my luck it probably arrives on Monday :P
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Check you have connecetd all the vac pipes up e.g. engine breathers, brake servo pipe etc as MAF voltage low can also be triggered by an air leak which will also cause poor idling. Check also the idle valve is seated correctly.
Oh and when the garage checked the leads, its probable that they were wrongly connected to the DIS as the connection order is not obvious!
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Tried it. The EML light comes on when it's disconnected, but since the engine runs so poorly, I couldn't tell if it's better or worse :(
I also failed to mention before, that exhaust smoke comes from under the plenum somewhere, A LOT when revving and then letting up the throttle. So I thought that probably exhaust manifold(s) is/are leaking somewhere, and because of that the lambda doesen't work corrrectly. At least someone in another topic here said something along those lines.
As I found out the other day, an exhaust manifold/EGR leak will cause it to sound like a tank and surging idle. if you can smell and see exhaust smoke I say track that down first :y
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Yes exactly what I thought when I found this: http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90499.0 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90499.0)
Will check them tomorrow.
Actually, now if I recall it, they found one loose vac pipe at the garage. I also knew of a loose one, but I never found where it should go. But they found a small piece of plastic somewhere (most of it broken off). They glued the vac pipe there. And the small idle jumping I had before was gone, perfect idle. But also, when the car ran fine in autumn, I never had power issues. It seems to have appeared after doing the DIS pack. It is very possible that maybe I pulled something apart by accident :P
Tried it. The EML light comes on when it's disconnected, but since the engine runs so poorly, I couldn't tell if it's better or worse :(
I also failed to mention before, that exhaust smoke comes from under the plenum somewhere, A LOT when revving and then letting up the throttle. So I thought that probably exhaust manifold(s) is/are leaking somewhere, and because of that the lambda doesen't work corrrectly. At least someone in another topic here said something along those lines.
As I found out the other day, an exhaust manifold/EGR leak will cause it to sound like a tank and surging idle. if you can smell and see exhaust smoke I say track that down first :y
Oh dear god, how in the world can i squeeze in to check exhaust manifolds lol :P It definitely smelled like exhaust gas.
Anyway, I'll update this topic tomorrow if i get the vac pipes done.
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Well, and credit goes to Martin42 for this....... fit a piece of tissue to the end of a long thing (magnet, ratchet extension etc) and put it down near the manifold. when the tissue starts flapping you've found your leak :y
very lucky for me mine was the small EGR pipe.
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Cheers :)
I wish it was tomorrow already
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Bad news.
I checked the vac pipes, all was fine and correct.
When I got the engine running to check exhaust manifolds, there was a faint knock-like sound in the engine, like it always is, when it has not ran for a couple of days. However, it has always disapeared when the engine got warm. This time instead I heard a couple of louder knocks, upon which I instantly let up the throttle and engine died. Couldn't start it again. I'm thinking I need to do a pressure test on the cylinders. What should the pressure be? Any other thoughts on what could've gone wrong, or what would I need to do next?
I'm pretty sure if there was a cliff near me I would push that load of crap (and headache) off of it :(
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Just another thought I had.
Does a faulty knock sensor leave a fault code, or can it not leave a fault code?
Thing is, when I got the car back from the garage, it idled PERFECTLY and ran great, just had a big loss of power, and as said before, didn't hit the rev limiter.
No knock sensor fault code however...
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The automatic gearbox has a small diameter plastic breather pipe that should be open to atmosphere.
There have been cases of people connecting this pipe to the vacuum pipes and then drawing automatic transmission fluid into the engine. Smokey...........
The other issues sound like poor electrical connections :-\ I would check that all the connectors in the engine bay are securely plugged together. I would start by checking the big round one under the power steering reservoir.
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Gearbox breather pipe is open. I was also thinking I need to check all the plugs and cables too just in case :P
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As Mark said earlier, re check ht leads at dispack, it is easy to get them wrong if you just presume the order, I once did it the wrong way and had very simular problems.
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Well, I found something else that probably causes bad stuff.
Stripped it down to cambelt. Both cams on bank 1-3-5 are on mark, intake cam on 2-4-6 is off by a tad, and exhaust cam is off by about a centimetre.
Some pics:
Exhaust cam 1
(http://s21.postimg.org/pdkmvg2lz/IMAG0561.jpg)
Intake cam 1
(http://s21.postimg.org/vsjns49br/IMAG0562.jpg)
Intake cam 2
(http://s21.postimg.org/yb5cssv1z/IMAG0563.jpg)
Exhaust cam 2
(http://s21.postimg.org/iqxz29kxj/IMAG0567.jpg)
Am I correct that the marks are supposed to go 1-2-3-4 and be in place every turn around?
I also found this, I believe it's the knock sensor on bank 1-3-5:
(http://s14.postimg.org/q53x9um75/IMAG0556.jpg)
It had made acquaintance with aux belt tensioner. I scraped it a little more, only to find that both wires are ok, so I put some isolation around it and taped together.
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Yes, Cam 4 appears to be 2 teeth out.
Nail varnish is an indication that at least one belt change was carried out without the timing tools.
It is quite common for the knock sensor wire to get trapped by the auxiliary belt idler bracket. If someone has been careless with the cam sensor wiring they could have been equally careless with the knock sensor.
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Thanks for your reply.
Those 2 teeth I think have a big influence on the engine, and are probably the reason why it's running so rough?
I believe I should try to check if valves are healthy too, or does compression test suffice?
Do you think it would also be worth to do head gaskets aswell, or leave them as is, since I haven't seen any symptoms of them being bad?
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V6 head gaskets rarely give any trouble but the timing is well out, as mentioned.
I would time it up using the proper kit and see if that improves things. If not, try a compression check in case there's some valve damage.
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Ok. Will need to wait for the next paycheck as I want to put on a new belt, don't have the courage to test with the same one. That is if I find a locking kit near me.
One question though, does the aux belt and cam covers need to be installed to to a compression test?
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Ok. Will need to wait for the next paycheck as I want to put on a new belt, don't have the courage to test with the same one. That is if I find a locking kit near me.
One question though, does the aux belt and cam covers need to be installed to to a compression test?
Auxiliary belt not required.
Cam covers optional (the cams won't turn fast enough to spray oil everywhere)
I would get the timing right before trying anything else.
Just be careful not to catch any loose wires in the exposed moving parts.
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Will do.
Cheers :)
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Update.
Cambelt changed. No change in engine running, cams and crank were put in mark. Hopefully tomorrow I can do a compression test.
However, one thing has come to mind. Could it be that I have blocked exhaust? Because if exhaust was clear, I believe exhaust smoke would go out of the exhaust pipes, not from exhaust manifolds (I think) so much, as I have described in another post..? Ofcourse the manifolds probably are leaking too, but I think that most of the gases would still escape out the pipes, rather then press out from the manifolds?
Also, the engine is having difficulties turning over. It does turn over, but it is very clear that engine/starter is pushing hard to do so. Is it possible that if I do have blocked exhaust, those 2 things are connected?
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Kluku, can I just check something.....
those pics of your camshaft during the timing check....
when you shot those the crank was at TDC, right? and that's what where each cam was with the crank at TDC, right?
if so do compression test and then if down do leak down test which will show if inlet or exhaust valves are leaking :y
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Yes that's where each cam was with crank at TDC. How can I do a valve leak test with head still on the engine tho?
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Yes that's where each cam was with crank at TDC. How can I do a valve leak test with head still on the engine tho?
Well it was cams 3 and 4 that were out (4 mainly). if you do a leak down test...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgrfT0LFMhc
and you get noise/air rushing out the tail pipe or the throttle body then youll know which head to pull off and which valves to inspect :)
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What a great video, cheers :) I hope my tale isn't going to end like the car's in the video :P
So really you don't even need the leak-down tester. That's great cause my compression tester arrived today and I can use the hoses from that just like Eric in the video described :P
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What a great video, cheers :) I hope my tale isn't going to end like the car's in the video :P
So really you don't even need the leak-down tester. That's great cause my compression tester arrived today and I can use the hoses from that just like Eric in the video described :P
I recommend ETCG for everything automotive. he's got over 300 vids and goes in to detaiol about everything :y
as for what he does in this vid.... if you just hook up your compression test lead to some compressed air (if you have it) and take the shrader vale out the lead (tyre valve remover - 50p from eGay) then run compressed air straight in to the cylinders and locate the broken/nackered valves from there :y
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Lucky for me I can get my hands on a compressor :P
Just to be clear, do I need to reattach the plenum in order to keep throttle open or is there some other way?
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Lucky for me I can get my hands on a compressor :P
Just to be clear, do I need to reattach the plenum in order to keep throttle open or is there some other way?
usually you'd just remove the bagpipe fittings, open up the throttle butterflies by hand and listen to it from there.
however if youre in a position where you've stripped the plenum/inlets off i don't see why youd just look/listen for air gushing out the inlets instead :-\
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Actually I meant when doing the compression test, they say you need to fully open the throttle. But since the plenum is off anyway, I guess the throttle is "all the way open", or does it have something to do with TPS, which would be unplugged when plenum is off?
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Actually I meant when doing the compression test, they say you need to fully open the throttle. But since the plenum is off anyway, I guess the throttle is "all the way open", or does it have something to do with TPS, which would be unplugged when plenum is off?
Got ya..... sadly i don't know mate soz :'(
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Lucky for me I can get my hands on a compressor :P
Just to be clear, do I need to reattach the plenum in order to keep throttle open or is there some other way?
The intention is to allow each cylinder to draw in as much air as it wants to. There is no clever electrical reason for holding the throttle open. Removing the inlet manifold entirely would work just as well :y
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Understood, cheers :)
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Began with the dismantling today, as I got no smarter from leak down test. Probably because of cheap compression tester hose, which I couldn't get into plug hole tight enough. Air gushed out from plug hole :P
Anyway, got the rear cambelt cover off and found this:
(http://s14.postimg.org/ky6ek2ri9/IMAG0594.jpg)
It's the same knock sensor cable, which as you can see I already have patched before, but I never saw that it was pretty much destroyed about 5 cm further down.
Also got off both cams on bank 1 and called it a day. Intake lifters on cylinder 3 have just a little play when push with fingers, but others were tight. Which way are they supposed to be, real tight or a little loose?
Also as you might notice the engine block is quite gunky downwards from cylinder head. Could this be a problem with HG?
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Haven't been here awhile, so just an update.
Took both heads off and discovered up-down play in all six pistons. The 2-4-6 pistons (all three) are also quite burnt (round at upper and bottom edges) and all three cylinder are dry and rough for the finger. Bank 1-3-5 on the other hand is very smooth and pistons are good too (not burnt, but have play).
Now things have got so far, I've already have another engine block (150€ and 50€ gas money, 400km alltogether) from a scrapyard. Decided not to replace heads. Need to figure out how to get the engine out, put together the new one and drop it in :P
Also bank 2-4-6 HG was knackered at one corner, it had a visible oil leak once I got the head off. It's also visible that coolant has gone from on channel over to another (on both heads), so it's clear that HG's have been there too long.
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Hi Kluku,
What did your compression and leak down tests reveal?
You mention you've decided not to replace the heads. Have you checked the valves are ok following your timing previously being out?
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Hey,
compression was about 5 BAR on bank 1-3-5 (cams were on mark on this side) and 0 on the other side. Didn't find where air went with leak-down test.
All valves seem to be fine, at least to the naked eye.
Remember in a post I wrote that the engine is turning round a little difficult? Well here's what I think:
I believe sometime somewhere an oil channel got blocked, hense the dry cylinders. Due to no lubrication on one side, the engine is having trouble turning over. At the same time cambelt is nearing it's deadline to be changed (about 3-4000km left according to numbers). And the result is, due to no lubrication the cambelt jumps. Also maybe the pistons are burnt because of no lubrication?
I have no idea why the pistons have some play in them though.
I am no expert on those matters though, and it was the very first time i have ever taken an engine apart that much.
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have you had the valves out? the problem with just eye balling it is they could look ok but be leaking.
so the compression on each cylinder was 5 bar? on your leak down did you hear much air escaping out of the dipstick tube or bbubbles in the coolant?
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Fill the combustion chambers with paraffin or similar (with heads upside down of course) and leave for a while to see how much leaks through the valve seats into the ports..If any valves are damaged it will seep through pretty quickly.If some seeps through over a long period of time it may just be acceptable wear and tear on valve seats.
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Yeah I forgot to mention I took all valves out, and none seem to be bent :P
Before that I did what you suggested Albitz, only with petrol, and true enough, the valves were leaking. It was in a shaded place, so it couldn't have evaporated, some petrol was still there the next day. But since they seem not to be bent and don't have any collision marks, I think they just need lapping.
And Webby, magically I didn't hear air escape anywhere, no bubbles in coolant nor out the dipstick, none out of exhaust nor intake :S
On bank 1-3-5 all cylinders were 5 BAR.
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Pistons and bores are lubricated by splash from oil thrown off the crankshaft, so difficult to see what might have starved it of oil, except that due to the direction of crank rotation, the 2,4,6 bank might naturally get a little less splash. :-\
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Yeah I forgot to mention I took all valves out, and none seem to be bent :P
Before that I did what you suggested Albitz, only with petrol, and true enough, the valves were leaking. It was in a shaded place, so it couldn't have evaporated, some petrol was still there the next day. But since they seem not to be bent and don't have any collision marks, I think they just need lapping.
And Webby, magically I didn't hear air escape anywhere, no bubbles in coolant nor out the dipstick, none out of exhaust nor intake :S
On bank 1-3-5 all cylinders were 5 BAR.
Fair enough mate. then i'm officially stumped..... 5 bar and the pressure loss not found ??? over to the experts on this one :y
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Just re-read this thread.
Many things are not adding up.
1) It would not have run at all if three cylinders had no compression and the other three only 5 bar
2) The vehicle passed an emmissions test so combustion must have been good
3) The system was potentialy reporting an air leak
And now we are in new donk territory.
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1) It ran great when I got it back from the garage except: No power, didn't rev over 5000rpm. I did the compression test after it broke down again.
2) Again, I literally drove straight from the garage to MOT. Car broke down a couple of days after that.
3) Don't know about this one, but surely an air leak won't leave 3 cylinders dry.
Now, the valves were leaking, and no oil on one side, so I guess the rings on those pistons aren't too healthy either. Probably that's why it had such poor compression?
If "new" healthy block and servicing both heads + new gaskets won't fix this car, I really don't know what will..
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So, can anyone give me original part numbers on these:
- Head gaskets (and bolts)
- Camcover gaskets
- Coolant bridge gaskets
- Exhaust manifold gaskets (both between the head and front downpipe)
- All the gaskets in inlet
- Lower/smaller oil pan (<-is this the correct name in English?) gasket
- Valve stem seals
If anyone more experienced sees something missing please say what.
I will offcourse replace water pump and oil filter.
I have yet to check the crank and cam seals.
Also, is there some kind of gasket between the block and the big coolant pipe, that comes from the radiator and runs to the back of engine?
I also went to a local car parts store and asked them the total for this list, and I want to see if they can get me original parts and see the price difference. No need to say I don't want to do this job twice :P
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And some more questions..
Got the engine out, it came a lot easier then I imagined it would:
(http://s14.postimg.org/w0a5k3bld/IMAG0051.jpg)
The brilliant work quality of one of the local garages, the filter was in the housing exactly like this:
(http://s14.postimg.org/v9hfeb981/IMAG0060.jpg)
Why is this white line there?
(http://s14.postimg.org/5o0m0pwmp/IMAG0061.jpg)
On to the serious stuff..
The cylinder head on which the cambelt had jumped, is "bubbly" around the top of the cylinder for somekind of a reason:
(http://s14.postimg.org/bdlfyrs6p/IMAG0058.jpg)
The other head for comparison:
(http://s14.postimg.org/euiwo01v5/IMAG0054.jpg)
And lastly this.
It's about half or even less than half a millimetre, both heads are like this. the question is, can I get away with this, or do I need to get them skimmed?
(http://s3.postimg.org/f72ktyrwj/IMAG0059.jpg)
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What a day.
I only now noticed that the new engine's pistons don't have valve "pockets" in them, but my old engine does. The pistons on the new engine also don't come up as far as on the old engine, so I don't think the pistons and valves are not gonna come into contact.
Could this actually be a preFL engine block that they sold me?
If it is a preFL engine, am I ok to put the heads from the old engine on it?
It would help a lot if someone knows and could answer :)
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Sorry for my ignorance, I found the engine stamp on the new engine, and it's actually a 3.2
I just got it in place, all's fine, but..
I managed to snap one bolt that holds drive plate and torque converter together. What would be the most simple way to fix this? Could I glue the bolt head into the hole (the other half of the bolt is in), or does it make much difference, if I leave it as is? I know things have to be balanced there, but I'd hate to move the engine again to drill it out...
Next, can I fit the 3.0 liter cylinder heads onto 3.2 or should I find 3.2 heads too? If You say I need 3.2 heads, what about ignition system, since the 3.2 engine doesn't have such DIS pack like the 3.0 I believe? And if I do need new heads, should I get them with camshafts or can I drop in my own from the 3.0?
This topic has had little replies lately, and I know that some of my questions may sound odd to You, but it would be a HUGE help if you could add your two cents.