Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: frenchtony on 09 July 2013, 11:17:15
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So I've got the new belt on and I've been following the dvd but mine is different, the pulley/tensioner for banks 3 & 4 on my car is not adjustable! the one for one and two is and the tensioner is as per the dvd,
I've set it up correctly and now I've rotated to check the timing and it is out, so how do I adjust the timing for 3 & 4?
thanks
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So I've got the new belt on and I've been following the dvd but mine is different, the pulley/tensioner for banks 3 & 4 on my car is not adjustable! the one for one and two is and the tensioner is as per the dvd,
I've set it up correctly and now I've rotated to check the timing and it is out, so how do I adjust the timing for 3 & 4?
thanks
That's correct for a 2.6/3.2 :y
You say the timing is out ....... where? I presume you're a tooth out somewhere :-\
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thanks for the reply
I think you are right, I took it off lined up the cams manually (v tricky) put in the cam locks and started again. I reused the eccentric pulley and now I have a little ahead on 1-2 and a fraction behind on 3-4,
I am on the limits of adjustment of the eccentric pulleys.
Anymore help reassurance appreciated
please see attached photos
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y509/frenchtony/cam1_zps6cd304d7.jpg)
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y509/frenchtony/cam2_zps6ad56a85.jpg)
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y509/frenchtony/cam3_zps80ea70b4.jpg)
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y509/frenchtony/cam4_zps7766b88e.jpg)
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y509/frenchtony/tensioner_zps70767228.jpg)
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y509/frenchtony/upperpulley_zpsbdfae9e1.jpg)
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y509/frenchtony/lowerpulley_zps42864a12.jpg)
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The bottom picture shows an adjustable pulley. It has an arrow and an adjuster with an off centre eccentric adjustment.
Do you have the correct cam belt kit?
If you can't get the marks lined up by adjusting the rollers to pull it round, then your a tooth out relative to the crank lock position.
This is the tricky bit with these. Just getting the belt on isn't enough, you need to get the belt on correctly.
Do not remove the locks. Remove the belt, then practice fitting the belt in a way that gives the correct position, so the teeth line up.
Then adjust 3/4 via the roller(if its adjustable as the pic) to get the last few mill so its clock on.
Then same with 1/2.
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I find starting with the belt at 1/2-back roller off-do 3/4- down to the bottom roller backed off-then down to the crank which should pop on if the belt is square. Then you may need to remove the tensioner roller, get the belt in position, then put the tensioner in position and fit it.
In other words...Due to the lip on the rollers you may find it much easier to remove a roller, put the belt in place, then the roller in place, then bolt in. It just gives a bit of extra slack to get it all fitted AND lined up. Doesn't matter which roller to which way round you do it, what ever work really. :y
Hth
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well I've refitted the belt 1 and 2 are spot on 3 and 4 are just a tad out will it do?
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now cam 3 is like this
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y509/frenchtony/cam3_zpsf9d41551.jpg)
just can't seem to get the belt any tighter on the stretch between cam 4 and the crankshaft
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Personally I wouldn't accept anything other than perfect timing. I did mine last change and there were no 'timing/set up' marks on the new belt (new GM kit). It took me a good while to align the belt properly..no markings on the belt to help so several attempts. After many attempts I did fit it correctly and was able to time up correctly (similar/same locking/timing kit to yours).
Before I started the job I did check the timing on the old belt and it was slightly out. I have noticed the difference since fitting the new belt, correctly timed, and wouldn't settle for anything less.
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When you say you've re-used the eccentric pulley, that presumably includes the bearing, the replacement of which is one of the main reasons for changing the cam belt, as failure of the pulleys is more common than failure of the belt. As said, the majority of 2.6/3.2 cars didn't have the adjustable bottom tensioner, so the kit you were supplied was correct, and the eccentric idler was probably supplied in error last time the belt was changed.
I wouldn't re-use the idler if I were you.
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well I've refitted the belt 1 and 2 are spot on 3 and 4 are just a tad out will it do?
No!
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now cam 3 is like this
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y509/frenchtony/cam3_zpsf9d41551.jpg)
just can't seem to get the belt any tighter on the stretch between cam 4 and the crankshaft
Stop, this is going to end in tears.
Get the correct kit.
No evidence of cam locks in the pics btw ??
You should be able to get the belt very close to correctly on, with cam locks and crank lock in place, and the tensioner and rollers backed off to minimum. Although removing a roller to Aid fitting might help.
If the tensioner and rollers still leave the marks out of range of correct adjustment, then the belt needs moving round a tooth while the locks are in place.
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Also, all 2.6/3.2 after , I believe , 2001 (?) had a non adjustable bottom roller.
If yours is fixed, you need the fixed roller. As the position of the bolt hole is very different between engines. Is there anything to say the diameter/position/difference in position due the eccentric of the roller will be the same...? That alone "could" be affecting the belt run length, apart from the fact as Kev says....
The belt will do 80k miles most likely. The failure point is the bearings in the rollers. DO NOT RE USE THE ROLLERS OR TENSIONER. :y
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Well all done for now, Car running sweetly.
Timing is better than when I started.
I had little option but to reuse the old pulley as the new one sheared off on installation, lucky it happened then see the photo
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y509/frenchtony/pulleyContitechbyContinental1_zpsc46e391b.jpg)
Anyway I had all the timing issues with the new pulley, the old pulley and it improved when I reused the old eccentric pulley.
So I will contact the supplier as this was a bit of a potential disaster area, never know I might get a refund?
Anyone want a timing kit?
Thanks for the help and observations
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thanks
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now cam 3 is like this
just can't seem to get the belt any tighter on the stretch between cam 4 and the crankshaft
Stop, this is going to end in tears.
Get the correct kit.
No evidence of cam locks in the pics btw ??
You should be able to get the belt very close to correctly on, with cam locks and crank lock in place, and the tensioner and rollers backed off to minimum. Although removing a roller to Aid fitting might help.
If the tensioner and rollers still leave the marks out of range of correct adjustment, then the belt needs moving round a tooth while the locks are in place.
Op stated he rotated engine to check timing - bit difficult with cam locks fitted ;)
@Op - Would still be unhappy fitting the old used pulley - its the pulley bearings which let go first - not a good idea mate ;)
Remember if belt breaks/jumps cogs, then very likely engine bu**ered as a result!
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I have to say to all you doom merchants ,sometimes you have to work with what you've got, Chrisgixer I did use the locks but you have to take them off to put the timing setting plate on!
I have a busted pulley miles from any decent stockist what can you do!
Anyway I concur with the advice to start at the top cam and belt marks and work down, making sure the timing is spot on at the top on these late V6's. There is also less to undo and remove compared to early ones, i.e. electric throttle and air pump changes.
Very happy to get it done, if it blows I'll be sure to let you all know!
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I have to say to all you doom merchants ,sometimes you have to work with what you've got, Chrisgixer I did use the locks but you have to take them off to put the timing setting plate on!
Yes, I know. ::) ;)
But you did say, you moved the cams manually, which might imply, no locks. I envisaged an incomplete locking kit, as there's no reason to move the cams by hand normally.
Thing is, as you most likely know, its all got to be done again to replace that roller.
Hence acquire the correct kit. If that means re assembling as is, with no other car available, then that's what you have to do. I guess?
But whatever, you need the correct kit. :)
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Glad your sorted though. :y
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Hi Chris, it was the correct kit, but yes thanks for the advice all sorted now, or maybe for now!
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Hi Chris, it was the correct kit, but yes thanks for the advice all sorted now, or maybe for now!
Sorry yes, something sheared..? Apologies I've not understood, what broke? :-[
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(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y509/frenchtony/upperpulley_zpsbdfae9e1.jpg)
That pulley centre has been rotated the wrong way to apply the tension. If the engine is used as photographed the belt tension will rotate the centre anti-clockwise which will loosen the centre bolt.
The arrow shows the direction the centre should be turned to apply the tension.
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Chris
It was the lower pulley so photo posted above.
Andy H
that was how it was already assembled on the backplate? Surely it won't move now it's been torqued up? Now you've got me worried, how can you tell it's the wrong way?
thanks
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.... how can you tell it's the wrong way?
thanks
The pulley is eccentric part of the bearing centre is sat around the 1 o'clock, if it'd been tensioned as per the arrow on the front, it would be more like 11 o'clock ;)
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Chris
It was the lower pulley so photo posted above.
Andy H
that was how it was already assembled on the backplate? Surely it won't move now it's been torqued up? Now you've got me worried, how can you tell it's the wrong way?
thanks
Sorry. I don't want you to lose sleep but if it saves you from bending a set of valves then OOF will keep another Omega on the road a little longer.
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Hi Andy
I'm not sure what is wrong, sorry to be a bit dim but I did follow the dvd guide? Can you please treat me like an idiot and give me step by step?
thanks
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in your last picture--the arrow on pulley is roughly at 1 o clock position---should be at 11 o clock position---if left as per photo--chance it go loose :y :y :y
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Hi Andy
I'm not sure what is wrong, sorry to be a bit dim but I did follow the dvd guide? Can you please treat me like an idiot and give me step by step?
thanks
It will be fine, provided it doesn't come loose.
But ideally, the eccentric should be adjusted in the direction of the arrow, because, if it does come loose the belt travelling in a clockwise direction will keep some tension on the eccentric and hence the nut, so its less likely to come loose all its tension.
As it is, the tension on the belt is trying to undo the eccentric, and hence the nut.
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so its an odds issue, do I take it apart again for this in the morning or do I take a chance, I only changed the belt as a precaution as its new to me done 80K and nothing in the service book, guess its a couple of hours work. Would you do it if it were your's
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The general consensus is that the belt is good for 80-100k miles. It's the bearings which fail well before that. If a jobs worth doing................... :-\
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so its an odds issue, do I take it apart again for this in the morning or do I take a chance, I only changed the belt as a precaution as its new to me done 80K and nothing in the service book, guess its a couple of hours work. Would you do it if it were your's
Yes. No question.
The way the eccentric tensioner tends to tighten the centre fixing bolt is quite clever. Unfortunately it will tend to loosen yours. :(
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If it was mine, I'd get the new correct roller and sort it all out in one go.
If I was advising someone else or working on someone else's car, I wouldn't start the engine until it was sorted. Tbh.
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So, you've got an idler bearing that's already probably done 80K re-fitted for another 40k.
Sorry - I know it's a lot of work, but I'd take the kit back with the broken idler and get it replaced, then refit the lot bearing in mind the points made. If you don't, you'll be wondering when it's going to lunch the engine for the next 40k miles.
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Well I've no choice for the moment Kevin, I'll see if contitech will send me the replacement. I'll be in the UK in a couple of weeks so maybe I can pick up just the roller from the Vauxhall dealer. Hopefully it will be listed as a separate part.
I've just retimed the car this morning following the advice received re eccentric pulley, so will leave this till I return after the summer.
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OK so I'm back in France after summer in the UK and time to resolve my timing issue. So to recap the idler roller bearing sheared when it was torqued up and I had to replace the old roller. I had no joy with getting buypartsby.com to send me a replacement contitech roller they wanted the whole kit back so I don't recommend that company >:(.
So I have sourced a new roller which is adjustable whereas the original one was not. I've done this as I found it impossible to get the timing spot on and tickover is not as smooth as it was, although in all other aspects it is perfect. :)
I followed the dvd but did struggle with getting it spot on, anyone offer any advice before I start again?
Thanks
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3.2 has one adjustable roller and one tensioner :y
The following is how RobseyMV6 very kindly sorted mine after I completely screwed it up ::)
Start at the crank, wedge and cam locks in place, over idler, up to cam4, then cam3, then under adjuster to cam2. if you can rotate the adjustable roller around its bolt, the you need to move the belt a tooth or so to the left on cam2 until the adjuster is fairly tight, then over cam1 and around the tensioner, then follow the dvd for setting the adjuster and tensioners :y
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thanks
I can make sense of that too! Probably have a go monday and post back the results
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Ok back to work I've disassembled and I can see that the timing is out by a tooth on bank 2 it is retarded, I've the locking tools all in, any advice on how to move bank 3 forward while keeping bank 4 where it is??
I presume I've to remove the belt somehow lock bank 4, remove the locking tool from 3 and 4 then move 3 a gnats whicker without it jumping past or back? Anyone done this before?
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Fit the locking tool in bank 1-2.
Remove the belt and turn the crank back 60 degrees to the safe point, set the 3-4 bank cams to the correct position and fit the locking tool, turn the crank with the locking tool fitted back to TDC.
Re-fit belt and continue.
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Fit the locking tool in bank 1-2.
Remove the belt and turn the crank back 60 degrees to the safe point, set the 3-4 bank cams to the correct position and fit the locking tool, turn the crank with the locking tool fitted back to TDC.
Re-fit belt and continue.
This is much easier with a third hand to fit the lock whilst you hold the cams in place!
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thanks for the tip, it went easily I used a rigid star wrench and just eased it a tad then cam lock back in and crank back to tdc, now on with the rest fingers crossed!
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All done, thanks to everyone for your help, car running nice and smoothly. So I'll put the timing tool kit on ebay as I'm hoping not to do this job again, having done it three times!!!
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All done, thanks to everyone for your help, car running nice and smoothly. So I'll put the timing tool kit on ebay as I'm hoping not to do this job again, having done it three times!!!
;D which kit is it Tony?