Omega Owners Forum

Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Deuce on 19 September 2013, 14:45:43

Title: 2.6 Autobox P1600
Post by: Deuce on 19 September 2013, 14:45:43
Hi guys, as you may, or may not, know I've had an ATF top up problem recently. Got a B and Q pump and 5 litres of ATF to try topping up this weekend coming as not convinced I did it properly last time.

Today my wife was driving me home from opticians and the spanner light came on with car going into limp mode, must be autobox limp as the car stayed in third gear.

Put my scanner on when arrived home and there is one code stored in the autobox. Opel manufacturer specific P1600

Any ideas? All I can find on Google is replace ECU. Could it just be low ATF?
Title: Re: 2.6 Autobox P1600
Post by: Kevin Wood on 19 September 2013, 15:01:24
P1600: Internal Power Control Final Stage Watchdog Error  / Solenoid Power Supply Circuit Open

Sounds like the ECU is seeing an electrical issue to me, so worth checking the security of the connectors on the gearbox, selector switch and also the big round connectors just behind the battery.

When you topped it up, you did do so with the box warm and the engine running?
Title: Re: 2.6 Autobox P1600
Post by: Deuce on 19 September 2013, 15:09:24
Hi Kevin, thanks for quick reply.

I used the MOT station pit after the MOT.

Engine warm and running, I started filling and got quarter of a litre in before it started gushing out of the hole. I plugged with my finger before quickly replacing bolt. Not sure if more came out than I put in. Also I don't think I cycled the gears long enough to fill the torque convertor properly. The car hardly gets any use and I had bought the pump kit with intention of topping up this weekend anyway.
Title: Re: 2.6 Autobox P1600
Post by: Deuce on 19 September 2013, 15:10:12
When I say gushing, I really mean it. Like suddenly unblocking a water pipe.
Title: Re: 2.6 Autobox P1600
Post by: Deuce on 21 September 2013, 12:55:21
Sorry to be a pain. Another question.

Today I did my ATF top up.

10 mile drive, no issues with limp mode or gear change, even up steep hill this time.

Hydraulic jack on each side of car lifted. Car level checked with spirit level on sill. Filled my new B&Q hand pump ready to fill.

Cycled each gear including reverse, leaving in each for 10 seconds. Engine left running in drive.

Loosened filling bolt on box, a few air release sounds, bowl under to catch fluid. Removed bolt and a quarter litre of ATF came out before it just started dripping. Refitted bolt.

Seems I had too much ATF in there.

Would a quarter too much ATF cause my shift problems?

Looking at the colour of the fluid that came out, would it indicate that the age of fluid is the cause?

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5533/9852717936_df685d9af5_z.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7315/9852750503_00b26833d4_z.jpg)

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2835/9852664754_4ec11ff649_z.jpg)
Title: Re: 2.6 Autobox P1600
Post by: omegod on 21 September 2013, 14:55:12
That looks a tad manky and could do with a complete change but........I LOVE THAT CAPRI SHOW ME MORE PICS :D
Title: Re: 2.6 Autobox P1600
Post by: Entwood on 21 September 2013, 16:48:41
As the fluid ages and gets worn out the polymer chains that it is made of actually lengthen !! so making the volume increase. The colour also changes to that shitty dark brown you have..:(

As said .. might well be worth a fluid change, although this is a VERY messy job and you only actually change 50% of the fluid. I did notice a marked improvement in mine when I eventually did it - but luckily that was at guffers meet some years back when we had access to a lift !! really, REALLY, made the job far easier and cleaner with it high in the air. I would HATE to try and do it on axle stands ..... in fact, thinking about it, I WOULDN'T do it on axle stands !!!

Title: Re: 2.6 Autobox P1600
Post by: Deuce on 21 September 2013, 20:28:00
Yes, not a job to look forward to. But I'm going to have to do it.

Done it on a Chevy 350 box and it wasn't too bad, but access much better.
Title: Re: 2.6 Autobox P1600
Post by: Deuce on 21 September 2013, 20:30:13
Quote from: omegod on 21 September 2013, 14:55:12
That looks a tad manky and could do with a complete change but........I LOVE THAT CAPRI SHOW ME MORE PICS :D

Cheers, so do I, lol. Here you go. http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=104784.0 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=104784.0)
Title: Re: 2.6 Autobox P1600
Post by: dbug on 21 September 2013, 22:00:25
Quote from: Entwood on 21 September 2013, 16:48:41
As the fluid ages and gets worn out the polymer chains that it is made of actually lengthen !! so making the volume increase. The colour also changes to that shitty dark brown you have..:(

As said .. might well be worth a fluid change, although this is a VERY messy job and you only actually change 50% of the fluid. I did notice a marked improvement in mine when I eventually did it - but luckily that was at guffers meet some years back when we had access to a lift !! really, REALLY, made the job far easier and cleaner with it high in the air. I would HATE to try and do it on axle stands ..... in fact, thinking about it, I WOULDN'T do it on axle stands !!!

Never heard of this in a polymer enhanced lubricant designed for a high shear applications.  Usually with time/use the polymer chains break down!  Perhaps you could enlighten me ;)
Title: Re: 2.6 Autobox P1600
Post by: Entwood on 21 September 2013, 23:02:24
Quote from: dbug on 21 September 2013, 22:00:25
Quote from: Entwood on 21 September 2013, 16:48:41
As the fluid ages and gets worn out the polymer chains that it is made of actually lengthen !! so making the volume increase. The colour also changes to that shitty dark brown you have..:(

As said .. might well be worth a fluid change, although this is a VERY messy job and you only actually change 50% of the fluid. I did notice a marked improvement in mine when I eventually did it - but luckily that was at guffers meet some years back when we had access to a lift !! really, REALLY, made the job far easier and cleaner with it high in the air. I would HATE to try and do it on axle stands ..... in fact, thinking about it, I WOULDN'T do it on axle stands !!!

Never heard of this in a polymer enhanced lubricant designed for a high shear applications.  Usually with time/use the polymer chains break down!  Perhaps you could enlighten me ;)

Quoting just one tiny portion of some fairly thick chemistry tomes ...

"The polymer chain is often shown in two dimensions, but it should be noted that they have a three dimensional structure. Each bond is at 109° to the next and, therefore, the carbon backbone extends through space like a twisted chain of TinkerToys. When stress is applied, these chains stretch and the elongation of polymers can be thousands of times greater than it is in crystalline structures. "

Also explained in slightly simpler language than some text books, here, specifically under "elongation"

http://www.pslc.ws/macrog/mech.htm

If you don't want to read the whole caboodle .. the relevant bit is ..

"That's where it pays to study the elongation behavior of a polymer sample. Elongation is a type of deformation. Deformation is simply a change in shape that anything undergoes under stress. When we're talking about tensile stress, the sample deforms by stretching, becoming longer. We call this elongation, of course."

"old" ATF that has "burnt" or changed colour has been subjected to excess heat stress and can suffer from this effect

They (polymer chains) also break at the extreme of elongation .. but its a bit like taking at 2 inch length of liquorice and pulling it until it breaks .. it gets to about 8 inches and snaps, leaving 2 X 4 inch pieces, so you have more and longer bits ... (ok in liquorice they will also be thinner.. but its an example not a comparison !! )

HTH  :)

 
Title: Re: 2.6 Autobox P1600
Post by: dbug on 22 September 2013, 02:24:35
ATF is the most complex of all lubricating fluids. Not only does it have to reduce friction to prevent wear like all lubricants, but it also has to allow a certain level of friction so clutch materials can engage.

ATF typically contains the following components:
Dispersants       Sludge & varnish control
Antioxidants       Prohibit oxidation
Antiwear          Planetary gear, bushing, thrust washer protection
Friction modifier Modify clutch plate and band friction
Corrosion inhibitor Prevent corrosion and rust
Seal swell agentPrevent loss of fluid via seals
Viscosity ImproverReduce rate of change of viscosity
Pour Point DepressantImprove low temperature fluidity
Foam inhibitor Foam control
Red dye Identification

There are two basic polymer additives in ATF.

Polyisobutylene (PIB)

Polyisobutylene based sludge and varnish control ATF additives are polymeric additives used in ATFs to keep sludge, soot, oxidation products, and other deposit precursors from forming deposits onto and harming key gearbox parts. The molecular weight of PIBs is only around a few thousand, and as a result their contribution to ATF viscosity is negligable.  They can also enhace thermal and shear stability in ATFs.

Polyalkylmethacrylate (PAMA)

This is a cross linked polymeric viscosity improver.

It is possible to produce an ATF exhibiting good Brookfield (torque) viscosity and high shear stability by employing two poly alkyl methacrylate polymers, one exhibiting good Brookfield viscosity and high shear stability and the other exhibiting poor Brookfield viscosity but higher shear stability. Unexpectedly the mixture of the two different PAMA polymers acts synergistically in that the resultant Brookfield viscosity of the ATF containing the mixture is lower than the arithmetic mean one would have expected from simply blending of the two materials in the base stock. Typical MWs range from 200K - 700K

So, you can produce a very low viscosity ATF with a high VI (Viscosity Index) together with a high shear stability, and long life in "sealed for life" ??? units.

Typically the total addition level of polymeric additives in ATF is significantly lower than 2% - and at these levels of addition unlikely to get any significant volume increase in ATF should poymer "elongation" be present (but unlikely with these polymers).  Volume increase in old ATFs more likely due to oxidation products (due to PIBs breaking down with "age/use") and moisture uptake.
 ;)
Title: Re: 2.6 Autobox P1600
Post by: Michael2.6 on 22 September 2013, 11:38:16
Enjoyed reading that colin

Very interesting  :y

Mike