Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Mart280 on 24 September 2013, 10:19:59
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About a month ago my coolant warning came on so I topped up, then about 2 weeks after that it came on again, I couldnt see any leaks or water anywhere, anyway it got to the stage where I had to top up every couple of days and now I could see a big puddle under the car.
What happens is, if the car is cold and I fill the tank right up some of it starts leaking straight away somewhere beneath or near (I think) the HB valve, then it stops until the thermostat opens and then more starts leaking, I have removed the scuttle and jacked the car up but cant find exactly where it is coming from, I have been reading about removing the plenum, will this give me more access to the area in and around the HBV area, just to add I'm alomost 100% sure the HBV is not leaking.
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About a month ago my coolant warning came on so I topped up, then about 2 weeks after that it came on again, I couldnt see any leaks or water anywhere, anyway it got to the stage where I had to top up every couple of days and now I could see a big puddle under the car.
What happens is, if the car is cold and I fill the tank right up some of it starts leaking straight away somewhere beneath or near (I think) the HB valve, then it stops until the thermostat opens and then more starts leaking, I have removed the scuttle and jacked the car up but cant find exactly where it is coming from, I have been reading about removing the plenum, will this give me more access to the area in and around the HBV area, just to add I'm alomost 100% sure the HBV is not leaking.
The HBV can leak only at specific heat settings/outside temp/engine temp .. often a bugger to prove. Other leak source in that area is the coolant bridge/oil cooler area, removeing the plenum allows a very good view of those areas and a better, but still not good, view of the HBV.
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Thanks, I will remove the plenum and report back.
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Plenums off but now I dont think the leak is in that area, I had a really bright torch and I just noticed water dripping from the right front of the engine near some pullys on the aux belt, my mates coming round later for a closer look so I should be able to provide some better details later.
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You do have to pin down where the leak is coming from but the most likely candidate in that area is the water pump. The pump is attached to the block just about central as you look at the V6 from the front (diagrams etc on here detail the location). In my case, when the water pump failed, the leaking started/continued from the front of the pump not far behind the pulley (not from the seal at the block). The timing belt cover has to come off to view properly and to change the pump. The thermostat and transfer pipe sits in the area above the water pump so there is a coolant flow there too.
Make sure you find the source before changing parts.
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Thanks for the help guys, my mate seems to think it's the water pump as well, problem is the MOT is due in December and I have never been able to fix the TC and ABS lights on all the time problem and I am led to believe that is now an automatic MOT falure, so I cant really justify spending money and time fixing the water pump for a couple of months use, I dont have a garage or a drive so cant break her up for parts, looks like a call to the scrappy tomorrow (sob) how much can I expect from him.
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Personally speaking, I wouldn't scrap it for those faults and there is a wealth of information and member experience on here to help you sort the issues. I hope you decide to keep your Omega on the road!
Regards and best of luck with it whatever you decide.
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Thanks for the help guys, my mate seems to think it's the water pump as well, problem is the MOT is due in December and I have never been able to fix the TC and ABS lights on all the time problem and I am led to believe that is now an automatic MOT falure, so I cant really justify spending money and time fixing the water pump for a couple of months use, I dont have a garage or a drive so cant break her up for parts, looks like a call to the scrappy tomorrow (sob) how much can I expect from him.
ABS & TC could very well be the ABS ECU, there's always cars being broken here that you could repair your car from relatively cheaply.
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Thanks for the help guys, my mate seems to think it's the water pump as well, problem is the MOT is due in December and I have never been able to fix the TC and ABS lights on all the time problem and I am led to believe that is now an automatic MOT falure, so I cant really justify spending money and time fixing the water pump for a couple of months use, I dont have a garage or a drive so cant break her up for parts, looks like a call to the scrappy tomorrow (sob) how much can I expect from him.
ABS & TC could very well be the ABS ECU, there's always cars being broken here that you could repair your car from relatively cheaply.
Even if a 2nd hand part is not available, a repair to your existing ECU with a 2 year warranty will only cost around £100-130, add the waterpump and the price is still much less than an unknown replacement car with probably more faults ... :(
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How hard is it to change the water pump, do I have to remove the cam belt or anything like that or do timing ? if it is just removing some bits and bobs and swapping pumps out I could probably handle it but cam belt changes and timing is beyond me.
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How hard is it to change the water pump, do I have to remove the cam belt or anything like that or do timing ? if it is just removing some bits and bobs and swapping pumps out I could probably handle it but cam belt changes and timing is beyond me.
A water pump can be changed without disturbing the cam belt. Easy once you get the stuff from the front of the engine off. ;)
I'm sure that you could get the cam belt done fairly inexpensively via the forum if you need to ;)
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Not sure what I am going to do yet guys but I cant find a guide for changing the water pump in the maintenance section, can ayone help with one ?
I did find one for a 2.5TD is it the same for a 2.6 ? http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90622.0
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There is a DVD you can buy from OOF (V6 cambelt change) that also details fully the water pump change. It is not a difficult job to change the pump but the 'access' work is common with changing the cambelt. That is you have to access the same area but don't need to do the cambelt bits (unless it is due of course and then you will then need additional locking kit tools). You need to torque everything up correctly on reassembly. If you have a Haynes manual around it will get you there but the DVD will save you loads of time and worry.
Hope this helps.
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Could it be a leaking radiator drain tap? Common on these.
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I've just ordered the V6 DVD and will have a go at fitting a new pump, i'm pretty sure it's coming from the front of the engine and not the rad, is there anything else in the front of the engine that it could be other than the water pump, it leaks out really fast when I pour water in the coolant tank ?
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where exactly are you another pair of eyes may help
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I've just ordered the V6 DVD and will have a go at fitting a new pump, i'm pretty sure it's coming from the front of the engine and not the rad, is there anything else in the front of the engine that it could be other than the water pump, it leaks out really fast when I pour water in the coolant tank ?
Lots of places for leaks but does sound like it is the pump. When considering the water pump, if you are on a slight incline, front of the car at the highest point, the likelihood is that you will still see dripping from the bottom of the block at the front. The pump is at the front middle half way down and if leaking from there the coolant will flow to the block and down the front dripping from the oil sump union area at the front. If it is anything to do with the thermostat area or oil cooler cover etc stuff above I would expect that to then naturally flow to the rear of the 'V' and drip at the rear. Not conclusive but is the case with mine. If it is in the rad area, IMO it is unlikely to find it's way to the leak area you described.
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where exactly are you another pair of eyes may help
Hastings and thanks allen25
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Thanks to OOF for the quick dispatch of the v6 DVD :y I was a bit unwell last week so only started on the car today, I got as far as loosening the bolts on the pulley wheels before you take the aux belt off, however the last nut or bolt on the power steering pulley (I think) has been rounded off, they are not like an ordinary shaped nut but I had the correct socket a sort of star shaped one with E10 on it, I have spent a couple of hours trying to make a socket fit banging filing and hammering (not much room) but I've made it worse, I cant get mole grips or stilsons on it and I dont know anyone who could weld a nut on, does anyone know of a tool that could the job bearing in mind there is no room to get a drill in there.
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Have you tried a cold chisel to get it started
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I have been having a go with an old screw driver, I dont have a chisel long enough to get in there and hammer it, I have a gas bottle but am worried of damaging the aux belt if I apply too much heat or will be it ok ? I cant remove the belt otherwise the pully wheel rotates freely, I suppose I can get a new aux belt if I melt it.
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You could grind the head off which would allow you to get the pulley off but then you have to remove the remaining stud
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It could be a split hose, or a loose hose clip. When I had a leaking water pump on a 3 litre V6, There was a yellow deposit at the bottom of the front cam belt cover, and With engine running I could see water dripping out of the bottom of the cam belt cover. Easy to see with a pit, but worth checking before you buy a pump and strip it all down. I have know side arms on the header tank develop leaks too.
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It might help retightening the other screws on the pulley. Looking at mine, E10 is the right socket. A small stilson would be my suggestion. Good luck!
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These things are a god-send if you can get a set with the right size: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-467893-Piece-Damaged-Remover/dp/B001C7T20E
I have Irwin ones which may well be better made but only go down to 10mm unless you get the expansion set with the 5/16" one in - I think the 9mm one in the above ought to fit an E10 nut..
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Thanks guys, I had a look at that Irwin set in a tool shop yesterday but the smallest one is too big, same with the silverline, I did find a Draper 9 bit set online but the trouble is there isnt much left of the nut which resembles a nut anymore, it's tapered off quite a bit now, I have some small stillsons but cant get them to grip same with mole grips, mates coming round with a small grinder later so I will see how we get on.
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Put the other 2 bolts back in so the pulley is secured in 3 places and give the damaged nut a good soak in plus gas or penetrating oil and leave for a while to soak in
Rotate the pulley so you can get the best access to the head of the bolt given the limited space to work and then cut a thin line through the face of the head with a small hack saw.
That should then allow yo to either get a stubby screw driver socket on it or maybe a small angle screw driver.If that fails you will have created a ridge for a larger screw driver to catch in and may be able to shock it to move with a few sharp hammer blows on the screwdriver head.
They are not on there that tight.( assuming the last owner didn,t swing on the wrench when last fitted ) and silly statement but make totally sure you are undoing the bolt not just tighteneing it up further.
Best of luck..it will come out...when you refit it apply a little copper slip on the new bolts and only tighten to the specified torque
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It's still in there >:( I've cut a groove in it but cant get it to turn or move at all, how hard or easy is it to take the rad out, that would give me a load more room to tackle it head on.
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Not that difficult.A bit of faffing around,but nothing technical. ;)
Could try removing the multi ram bagpipes for better access if you haven't already. :y
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I'm going to remove the rad but cant find a guide, anything really important I should know chaps ?
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I am not sure that removing rad will give you any better access. As mentioned by amba, if you put the other two nuts back on they will reduce the load on the last bolt and will make it easier to come out. Make sure the groove you have cut is very deep, get your hands on a dremmel if you can, then with a slot screwdriver attachment to your wrench give it some sharp turns/hits.
I trust that the aux belt is still on :-\
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Thanks Guffer I have done all that and the bolt is still stuck fast, Iv'e just had a gas bottle on it with no joy although rain has just stopped play.
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Chop its head off,then once the pulley is off grab the stub with a pair of molegrips and remove it.
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Wont be a lot of thread left,Albs,as that water pump pulley is only thin metal.
I would keep up the plusgas and gently hitting the cut edge with large screw driver in an attempt to shock release thread.
Could always give it a good warm up with a MAP gas torch as that will give direct heat
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Thats a good Idea Albitz and will be my next move.
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Wont be a lot of thread left,Albs,as that water pump pulley is only thin metal.
I would keep up the plusgas and gently hitting the cut edge with large screw driver in an attempt to shock release thread.
Could always give it a good warm up with a MAP gas torch as that will give direct heat
I've had a gas torch on it already and been wacking it plenty, it really doesent want to move.
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Do the bolts protrude through the rear of the water pump flange at all ? If they did it might be easier to grip the end of the bolt at the rear of the flange and get it moving,once the pulley is off .
Cant remember off the top of my head how much clearance is there without the pulley. :-\
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Sounds like its time to get someone to weld a nut onto the stub thats left or try to drill the stub and use a reverse easy out ,if its that tight however you may break the easy out and then you will have more problems.
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Which pulley is it that you cant get off?
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Sorry you said earlier that it was the power steering pulley is that correct?
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If you do get welding done check on here what you need to disconnect prior to welding
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Sorry you said earlier that it was the power steering pulley is that correct?
Yes thats the one, as for welding there isnt much left of the nut to weld it to.
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Sorry ,just re read the full post and see the problem bolt is on the power steering pulley and not the water pump as I had first thought..although my approach for either would have still been the same.
If it is going to get cut as a last resort then for the extra effort and ease of getting the broken bit out afterwards,you may as well just remove the entire power steering pump and work on it in at a better angle held in a vice as drilling it out will be a whole lot easier and probably avoid damaging the pump with the added cost of a replacement afterwards.
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What a nightmare! Just for a leaking water pump. If the stuck screw were in the water pump you could grind off the head because you will change the water pump any way. It's a mystery how it came to be overtightened, because you can only tighten it with the belt on, by which time you have put it in finger tight. Could it be too much loctite applied by some earlier mechanic?
Is there room to get a 90 degree drill attachment in to drill the head off the screw?
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Thats why I asked which pulley it was Amba beat me to it take the steering pump off so that it can be worked on in the shed, garage, kitchen table.
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Thats why I asked which pulley it was Amba beat me to it take the steering pump off so that it can be worked on in the shed, garage, kitchen table.
Is it that easy? Haynes says first degas the aircon, then remove the pulley. Is there a better way of doing it?
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It would seem that the aircon compressor is bolted to the power steering pump bracket :-\
Removing the radiator won't improve access as the aircon condensor and front fans will still be in the way :-\
Pulley off and see what's left to work with :y
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Chopped the head off the nut and the stud came out by hand, what a bastard and ultimately all for nothing because my water pump isnt leaking but the thermostat is and it was running down onto the pump.
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Good news it has come free atlast , and probably heat/shock lossened it enough that the final straw was "having its head chopped off" :y
Also better to be able to find the cause of the leak..thermostat is not such a bad job just have the swear box ready for getting the B bolt back in afterwards.Remember its wise to also have the transfer pipe available when you replace the stat and housing as you may need to brake the lug if you cant spilt the 2 pipes..also you will require the 2 O rings for the transfer pipe..they come with the pipe from VX if you buy new.
Onward and upwards ;)
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you say chopped the head off the nut if its the pulley we are talking about this is held with a bolt
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you say chopped the head off the nut if its the pulley we are talking about this is held with a bolt
yes it's a bolt my mistake.
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Chopped the head off the nut and the stud came out by hand, what a bastard and ultimately all for nothing because my water pump isnt leaking but the thermostat is and it was running down onto the pump.
Good to know you have found the leak. No doubt you will be considering why the stat is leaking? Is it just not torqued down correctly, has the gasket failed is the leak from the 'O' rings? If the stat is operating correctly, no need to replace it? So loads of hassle but you may well be sorting this out at minimum cost. I hope you sort it, I'll be keeping an eye on the thread out of interest and support!
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You sure its the stat housing leaking and not the cooler plate near the stat. Cooler plates are more prone to leakage than stat housings ime. Worth double checking. ;)
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You sure its the stat housing leaking and not the cooler plate near the stat. Cooler plates are more prone to leakage than stat housings ime. Worth double checking. ;)
Whats a cooler plate, it might be that, I dont know it's starting to do my head in a bit.
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I would replace the thermostat if there is any doubt. I replaced mine recently and when I took the old one out to look at it would seem to be OK but when tested water would flow through it when cold, it must have been sticking open a tiny bit that was not noticable looking at it. now nice and quick warm up.
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cadillac cateraart280 link=topic=118144.msg1503103#msg1503103 date=1381598284]
You sure its the stat housing leaking and not the cooler plate near the stat. Cooler plates are more prone to leakage than stat housings ime. Worth double checking. ;)
Whats a cooler plate, it might be that, I dont know it's starting to do my head in a bit.
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Will be obvious once you have the inlet manifold and bridge off :y
Would start stripping the plenum and inlet manifold before touching the bastid bolt, just in case it is the oil cooler cover plate :-\ at least that way you can be certain of the leak, and throw the inlet back on until parts arrive so you're not stuck without a car :y
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As always, a bolt is only tight when it has something to tighten down to.
Remove the head of the bolt and provided there is something which can be removed, the bolt will no longer be tight.
It'll be just a loose screw in a thread!
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You sure its the stat housing leaking and not the cooler plate near the stat. Cooler plates are more prone to leakage than stat housings ime. Worth double checking. ;)
Whats a cooler plate, it might be that, I dont know it's starting to do my head in a bit.
The oil cooler cover plate sits in the centre of the 'V' and runs the length of the 'V'. If you have a look at the guide on here for changing the oil cooler you will see a picture and full detail. There is a coolant flow below, exchanging heat from the oil (via the cooler) to the coolant. As earlier, make sure you have found the leak before changing parts.
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You sure its the stat housing leaking and not the cooler plate near the stat. Cooler plates are more prone to leakage than stat housings ime. Worth double checking. ;)
Whats a cooler plate, it might be that, I dont know it's starting to do my head in a bit.
Its the plate which sits on top of the oil cooler (have a look at guide for oil cooler changing and that will make it obvious.It runs the length of the V and comes to an end just before the stat. :y
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Just found the leak :) and it is the cooler plate, there is a big nut on it near the front and it has corroded away there, there is a big hole, now I need a new one, scrappy or new one ?
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Just found the leak :) and it is the cooler plate, there is a big nut on it near the front and it has corroded away there, there is a big hole, now I need a new one, scrappy or new one ?
Has the plate been damaged? If so a good sh one from a scrappy will do it.
But it's worth checking the oil cooler while it is off as when these go it's a bugger to clean out all the sludge from the coolant circuit (several days in many cases). If the oil cooler looks new (and I bet it isn't if a bolt has rusted away) then I would recommend that you get one from vauxhall. For the sake of a few quid it's a lot of work to replace and I would not trust a pattern one in this instance.
Nice work so far :y
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It's the actual plate near the nut that has corroded away, I saw a new cooler and plate on ebay for £160 :o I just want a second hand plate, my mot runs out in a couple of months the abs ecu needs re furbing I think and |I cant keep spending money on it if I cant get another mot, I dunno bloody cars :)
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I may have a spare cooler plate among all my bits & pieces. I will have a look in the morning.If In haven't got back to you by mid afternoon,remind me,as my memory is patchy at best. :y ;D
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I may have a spare cooler plate among all my bits & pieces. I will have a look in the morning.If In haven't got back to you by mid afternoon,remind me,as my memory is patchy at best. :y ;D
Thanks mate will do :y
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Theoretical question here chaps, what would happen if I bypassed the oil cooler, take it out of the cooling system so to speak, someone told me most modern cars dont have oil coolers and suggeted I bypass it, like I said I'm not going to but seriously what would be the outcome ?
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Its not so much a cooler as a heat exchanger. It sits in the coolant so the oil is kept at optimum temperature.
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Theoretical question here chaps, what would happen if I bypassed the oil cooler, take it out of the cooling system so to speak, someone told me most modern cars dont have oil coolers and suggeted I bypass it, like I said I'm not going to but seriously what would be the outcome ?
Many "experts" usually found in pubs ;D ;) Vx fitted the oil "cooler" for a reason
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I may have a spare cooler plate among all my bits & pieces. I will have a look in the morning.If In haven't got back to you by mid afternoon,remind me,as my memory is patchy at best. :y ;D
Thanks mate will do :y
I do have one. Unusually I went in the shed and it was the first thing I saw. PM incoming. :y
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Theoretical question here chaps, what would happen if I bypassed the oil cooler, take it out of the cooling system so to speak, someone told me most modern cars dont have oil coolers and suggeted I bypass it, like I said I'm not going to but seriously what would be the outcome ?
Many "experts" usually found in pubs ;D ;) Vx fitted the oil "cooler" for a reason
Thats what I thought :y
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I may have a spare cooler plate among all my bits & pieces. I will have a look in the morning.If In haven't got back to you by mid afternoon,remind me,as my memory is patchy at best. :y ;D
Thanks mate will do :y
I do have one. Unusually I went in the shed and it was the first thing I saw. PM incoming. :y
Excellentthanks :)
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(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d200/mart280/Leakyoilcooler_zps277a1be6.jpg) (http://s35.photobucket.com/user/mart280/media/Leakyoilcooler_zps277a1be6.jpg.html)
Just to show you guys the hole :) I have pushed a clear cable tie into it.
Can I swap that over without draining my oil ?
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Would have thought yes, as it is pretty much the highest point on the block :-\
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Get some paper roll or rags into those open inlets before you drop a nut/bolt into there and forget about it until you start up and valves will get bent.
If removing plate you will require tube of grey VX sealnt to reseal back..alos the dowty washers for the coolant bridge and also the rubber O rings for the threaded hollow bolts to oil feeds..VX part only
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Get some paper roll or rags into those open inlets before you drop a nut/bolt into there and forget about it until you start up and valves will get bent.
If removing plate you will require tube of grey VX sealnt to reseal back..alos the dowty washers for the coolant bridge and also the rubber O rings for the threaded hollow bolts to oil feeds..VX part only
I put rag in when im working on it, do I just go to vauxhall dealer and they will have the parts ? sorry for noob questions.
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The sealant should be stocked, the other bits might need ordering, but most parts are next day or two day :y
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Quick question guys, I'm just about to put the sealant on my new plate and torque it down, the guide says the two 30mm nuts are torqued to 30NM, then it says torque down the eight bolts that hold the cover in place but doesent give a figure, 30NM ok again ?
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20nm for the smaller bolts. :y
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20nm for the smaller bolts. :y
Ah...ok...hmmmm..20...30.. whats a few newton meters between friends :)
About 4oclock tomorrow afternoon I shall pour some water in my coolant tank and see if it leaks, fingers crossed for me chaps :y
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Yes you must leave the sealant a good 24 hours before putting coolant in,but sounds like your getting there :y
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Just finished for today and it's looking good :y had a leak on coolant bridge where I used old washers, the metal and rubber ones, bloke at Vauxhall couldnt find the coolant bridge on there system yesterday, quick trip up there just before they shut tonight armed with a part number i found on an old site from 2006 and i walked away with 4 washers at £3 each :'( swapped them over filled up and I cant see any leaks, I will be putting it all back together tomorrow and hope to have the old girl back on the road for the first time in about 3 weeks.
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Just realized I need to replace that bolt on the power steering pulley that took me a week to get off ;D will vauxhall have one and are they open saturdays ?
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If you get stuck give me a shout.I may well have one among the hundreds of bolts Ive removed when stripping Omegas. ;)
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If you get stuck give me a shout.I may well have one among the hundreds of bolts Ive removed when stripping Omegas. ;)
Will do mate :y
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Sounds like you are nearly sorted,so well done.
Dont be tempted to run engine with only 2 bolts in that pulley as it may throw the belt and do more damage.
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Sounds like you are nearly sorted,so well done.
Dont be tempted to run engine with only 2 bolts in that pulley as it may throw the belt and do more damage.
Thanks for the advice because I would have tried starting it, hope I can find one somewhere , I think I read it is an M4, can I use any M4 bolt and cut it down ?
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Yup :y be sure to cut it to the exact length in case it fouls the pump body...
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Thanks for all your help chaps I'm back on the road and thanks to Albitz for the cooler plate :y
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Good to hear Mart. :y
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Great news and well done.