Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: tunnie on 10 October 2013, 18:03:29
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Anyone have any experience of these, been informed that there is one under the garden of my "new new" place which we are in the process of buying.
A quick Google suggests these are a way of controlling water into the surrounding soil? So if we get a major down-pour, water goes into this tank (through top soil I imagine?), can stay there then is slow let out? Rather than saturating the ground?
Anything to look out for?
It's practically brand new, houses finished Nov 2012. :)
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Has it been built on a flood plain then?? Carnt see the reason for one otherwise :-\
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Has it been built on a flood plane then?? Carnt see the reason for one otherwise :-\
Nope, no flood plane as far as I know. :-\
House we were getting to get about mile down road had a flood report done, nothing to note
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That said these were designed apparently as "eco" houses, as solar panels were included from new to heat hot water. Said number of other things were done, but not listed.
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Has it been built on a flood plane then?? Carnt see the reason for one otherwise :-\
Nope, no flood plane as far as I know. :-\
House we were getting to get about mile down road had a flood report done, nothing to note
I dont understand it then......but i havent googled it, just going by your original post.....why do need a tank under your garden to collect the rainfall and slowly release it......if the ground doesnt flood when it rains heavily :-\ I havent got one.....so why does this property need one :-\
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Further research suggests these also limit impact on drains, reducing the strain. Come across a blog which had for a new build the requirement for this kind of tank too, as there were many houses in the area, this was required to help protect drains from too much water.
GrandmaT lives less than a mile away, never been a flood in Camberley.
This is from another development, again all about sustained development :-\
http://www.southampton.ac.uk/estatedevelopment/newsandpublications/currentnewsandarchive/2009/20090706_lsblueboxes.shtml (http://www.southampton.ac.uk/estatedevelopment/newsandpublications/currentnewsandarchive/2009/20090706_lsblueboxes.shtml)
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I would be finding out if I can harvest the water for watering the garden,washing the car etc. nd then having the water bill reduced accordingly. ;)
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I would be finding out if I can harvest the water for watering the garden,washing the car etc. nd then having the water bill reduced accordingly. ;)
Ooo damn good point. Already getting sun to heat the water :D
Just been doing some more research on Environment Agency's site, even at "Extreme" Flood, our new house is way outside the boundary of the Blackwater River risk area
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Might be a communual system :-\ especially as the road is probably unadopted... ie the residents pay to maintain the roads/ verges/ greens / lighting etc rather than the council :-\ double check if neither the solictor, vendor or estate agents mention it :y
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Might be a communual system :-\ especially as the road is probably unadopted... ie the residents pay to maintain the roads/ verges/ greens / lighting etc rather than the council :-\ double check if neither the solictor, vendor or estate agents mention it :y
It is :y
There is a management company for the close, fee paid once a year. That goes into as you say general maintenance, this tank is listed. It's underneath next doors back garden too, the too gardens back onto each other.
My solicitor brought it to my attention, tempted to ring Estate Agents tomorrow. The vendor is a switched on chap, he is a director of the "maintenance company" so he should know about it.
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Found out it serves the whole road too, from the TP1 form:
"Attenuation Tank means the attenuation tank serving
all plots within the Estate and located within the
boundaries of Plots 1 and 2 within the Estate and all
pipes conduits and ancillary apparatus connecting the
Attenuation Tank to the estate road
As it's not adopted by council, guess this is it's main drainage source for drains from the very small close.
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In the "good old days" (TM) (when everyone grew their own vegetables and only toffs had cars) rainwater used to soak into the soil and slowly find it's way into the local watercourse.
Now everyone seems to have a patio and has paved over the front to park cars on. When it rains the water runs straight off and into the nearest watercourse (which then rushes downstream and floods places that never used to have a problem).
Surface water attenuation is intended to capture the water and then release it at a rate that the water course can cope with.
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Might be a communual system :-\ especially as the road is probably unadopted... ie the residents pay to maintain the roads/ verges/ greens / lighting etc rather than the council :-\ double check if neither the solictor, vendor or estate agents mention it :y
It is :y
There is a management company for the close, fee paid once a year. That goes into as you say general maintenance, this tank is listed. It's underneath next doors back garden too, the too gardens back onto each other.
My solicitor brought it to my attention, tempted to ring Estate Agents tomorrow. The vendor is a switched on chap, he is a director of the "maintenance company" so he should know about it.
Why does that set alarm bells ringing. Whatever happened to building away from flood plains and having proper drainage pipe work? :o
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Might be a communual system :-\ especially as the road is probably unadopted... ie the residents pay to maintain the roads/ verges/ greens / lighting etc rather than the council :-\ double check if neither the solictor, vendor or estate agents mention it :y
It is :y
There is a management company for the close, fee paid once a year. That goes into as you say general maintenance, this tank is listed. It's underneath next doors back garden too, the too gardens back onto each other.
My solicitor brought it to my attention, tempted to ring Estate Agents tomorrow. The vendor is a switched on chap, he is a director of the "maintenance company" so he should know about it.
Why does that set alarm bells ringing. Whatever happened to building away from flood plains and having proper drainage pipe work? :o
Lol everyone appears to have latched onto flooding ???
1) It's not a flood plain.
2) The area has never flooded.
3) It's an adopted road, it does not belong to council, so additional drainage was needed.
Also every member of the close, is a member of the management company. With several of them being directors, being retired I think he had the time
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You're not worried at all, are you Tunnie? ;D ;D
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You're not worried at all, are you Tunnie? ;D ;D
Nope :y
GrandmaT has lived 1/2 mile away from this house for about 30+ years, I know it well. :)
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If you come on the forum and ask a question such as yours, you just know what will happen. ;D
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If you come on the forum and ask a question such as yours, you just know what will happen. ;D
;D ;D
Never knew much about these, so thought ask.
It's all a bit dooms day on here these days ::)
I'm happy, can see how it's being used. Shows all the drain pipes leading from various sources, all clear and well done.
As it's a private road, everything now makes sense. :)
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Might be a communual system :-\ especially as the road is probably unadopted... ie the residents pay to maintain the roads/ verges/ greens / lighting etc rather than the council :-\ double check if neither the solictor, vendor or estate agents mention it :y
It is :y
There is a management company for the close, fee paid once a year. That goes into as you say general maintenance, this tank is listed. It's underneath next doors back garden too, the too gardens back onto each other.
My solicitor brought it to my attention, tempted to ring Estate Agents tomorrow. The vendor is a switched on chap, he is a director of the "maintenance company" so he should know about it.
The fact that the close is unadopted is not necessarily a good thing in my opinion..... :-\ What's to stop the maintenance company from jacking their charges up every year? ::)
Why is the vendor selling? ??? If he's the director of the maintenance company, maybe they're not doing a great job and the neighbours are not happy with him.... :-\ I'd go and wander around one evening and see if you can have a quiet chat with some of the neighbours. ;)
Are there any plans in the pipeline to get the close adopted by the council? Private roads and shared drives/access can be a complete nightmare... ::)
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Here we go. ;D
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What's to stop the maintenance company from jacking their charges up every year? ::)
Me. (+others) The company is made up of the property owners on the close.
Why is the vendor selling? ???
The stairs, they are an elderly retired couple, they find them a struggle.
Are there any plans in the pipeline to get the close adopted by the council? Private roads and shared drives/access can be a complete nightmare... ::)
No shared drive, it's a standard close with garage/driveways.
I can see lots of benefits, it's in the contract that bins cannot be left out too long, hedges/noise must be kept under control. No need to go through council for things like that, again changes have to go through management company which I will be a member.
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Sorry didn't spot your earlier post. :-[
So do you buy shares in the company as part of the deal? ???
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I think, if it's anything like my parents, by paying the management 'fee' you automatically enrol!
Works perfectly for them (my parents) and I hope it works well for Tunnie.
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Sorry didn't spot your earlier post. :-[
So do you buy shares in the company as part of the deal? ???
I don't think so, I'm a share of the free hold in my current place. But as the house is freehold, I don't think I get any shares of this company, just become a member.
by paying the management 'fee' you automatically enrol!
Yes, that's how I read it. You pay it, you get a say by being a member.
Personally I like it, reading through it's really aimed at making the close a nice place. Things like parking on grass verge, of which is small in the close, is not allowed.
Also means if anyone wants to change/extend their house looks like it needs to go through management company too so get more of a say. That said nothing is overlooking, can't see how any of the houses could extend in a bad way.
There are only 9 plots in the close, so quite a compact little close.
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Sorry didn't spot your earlier post. :-[
So do you buy shares in the company as part of the deal? ???
I don't think so, I'm a share of the free hold in my current place. But as the house is freehold, I don't think I get any shares of this company, just become a member.
by paying the management 'fee' you automatically enrol!
Yes, that's how I read it. You pay it, you get a say by being a member.
Personally I like it, reading through it's really aimed at making the close a nice place. Things like parking on grass verge, of which is small in the close, is not allowed.
Also means if anyone wants to change/extend their house looks like it needs to go through management company too so get more of a say. That said nothing is overlooking, can't see how any of the houses could extend in a bad way.
There are only 9 plots in the close, so quite a compact little close.
It's not in my Parents Cul-De-Sac is it? ;D
Exactly the same there. One of the houses with a large garden gained planning permission for a single story dwelling on their land with permission from the 'management company' on the merit it would be owned by their daughter for a period of 10 years. I'm guessing a few hundred quid between the residents is small change compared to having their quiet 'community' descended upon by money grabbing people with a few quid and a JCB!
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All is well provided the developer is not a shareholder :y
Our 1960's estate of 50 houses is unadopted. We, the residents, have maintained the grounds/roads since day one, but the developer technically still owns both ::) makes the annual meetings a bit complicated...
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OK so who actually owns the company? and what's to stop the owners (who might be nice and benign) selling out to a big nasty corporate? ::)
What is the structure of the company and as a 'Member' do you get any power? or do you just get to voice your opinion? :-\
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What is the structure of the company and as a 'Member' do you get any power? or do you just get to voice your opinion? :-\
Going to be finding that out, as current owner is retired I think he became a director due to spare time.
All is well provided the developer is not a shareholder :y
Going to be finding that out, current place you are quite involved. We even got to pick the colour of the carpets when they were re-done, more recently on the style of new windows in common areas. :)
It's not in my Parents Cul-De-Sac is it? ;D
One of the houses with a large garden gained planning permission for a single story dwelling on their land with permission from the 'management company' on the merit it would be owned by their daughter for a period of 10 years.
Don't think so, no one in the close has made any changes. :)
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It is something that varies from place to place :y
Worst case scenario, the developer sets up/appoints a third party management company. These can and often do dramatically increase charges to pay for grounds maintenance/communual property upkeep etc. Often found in apartment blocks with communual lifts/heating etc.
Generally a committee, with a clear set of guidelines in place will suffice. No one committee member has an executive vote, they serve simply to arrange the day to day responsibilities on behalf of the residents. Ours is an association, with a treasurer, a secretary and chairman, along with a further five people on the committee. The annual subscription is voluntary, but expected and is currently £50 per household per year, and covers the public liability insurance for the roads and footpaths, upkeep of two large greens and clearing the drains a couple of times a year. Where the roads have needed repair, every household is expected to contribute an equal amount. Not all do contribute, or participate for that matter, but by and large it is an amicable place to be :y
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Lets look at this another way then.
The drainage isn't so good (even though it isn't a flood plain).
A large tank is built underground and leaks water away.
Q. What happens if the ground is saturated from weeks of rain and the tank is full and the ground cannot take anymore water?
Q. Who designed the size of the tank and what rainfall parameters was it designed to?
I only ask this because in Spain extremes of rainfall are very common and the power is amazing.
I still don't like the idea. I would be slightly happier if the tank was on someone elses (lower than mine) land.
Here is a weblink to show the product http://www.carlowprecast.com/civil-stormwater-attenuation.aspx
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Got a very good relationship with my local solicitors, raised a number of points. Including few raised here and that I already knew, such as fee increases (how/when) how much say and such we have. Also if developer is still involved :)
This one appears to be a couple of directors, rest members. The communal areas are very, very small, tiny strips of grass, a very short close ect.
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Does rather rule out planting trees in the garden... can't see it being buried that deep :-\
Got a very good relationship with my local solicitors, raised a number of points. Including few raised here and that I already knew, such as fee increases (how/when) how much say and such we have. Also if developer is still involved :)
This one appears to be a couple of directors, rest members. The communal areas are very, very small, tiny strips of grass, a very short close ect.
What is more important, is that something is actually in place :y at least then everyone is on the same page rather than having to have a massive fight every time summat needs attending to...
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Does rather rule out planting trees in the garden... can't see it being buried that deep :-\
Got a very good relationship with my local solicitors, raised a number of points. Including few raised here and that I already knew, such as fee increases (how/when) how much say and such we have. Also if developer is still involved :)
This one appears to be a couple of directors, rest members. The communal areas are very, very small, tiny strips of grass, a very short close ect.
What is more important, is that something is actually in place :y at least then everyone is on the same page rather than having to have a massive fight every time summat needs attending to...
Yup :y
It's all listed, clearly on the plans too. Lists in the contract that it's everyone in the Close's responsibility.
Looking at how everything else was done, there must have been some calculations of water flow to what size is needed to soak off.
As STMO says, I could always take a feed off as feed to wash the car ;D
All the houses appear to be of very high build, this was clear from inside the house. I've been through some modern new builds which are very poorly built.
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Does this tank need any maintenance Tunnie? ???
From what I understand it is sited under yours and your neighbours garden? What arrangements are in place with your neighbour? or does the maintenance company look after all of the tanks on the estate? :-\
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Also means if anyone wants to change/extend their house looks like it needs to go through management company too so get more of a say.
I think you'll find that these local agreements can often be ignored. For example, every estate in Milton Keynes had a similar agreement of no TV aerials or dishes were allowed. Actually, I think the same condition exists on my place, along with no vans etc. Even no conservatories IIRC.
Obviously everyone bar me has a silly dish bolted at headheight (what is it with Uncle R's lazy fitters?), and many, many conservatories around here, simply because its unworkable and unenforcible.
But none of that is a reason to walk away, as that will be the same anyway :). Is it a private round, and clearly marked as such? Who is liable if a pothole on your road causes damage to a non residents car? Is there anything else where normally the council would be liable, but the liability shifts to you?
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This tank, it is for rainwater only? Not one of those for sewerage (NOT ceptic tank) which relies on bacteria to clean the waste and soak away? You have to be careful of those designs, as bleach and some soaps/cleaning products kill the bacteria, and kill the tank.
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I thought 'attenuation tank' was just a posh word for 'soakaway'?
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These 'modern day' estates can be rather complex.
For instance, the estate I live on (where we hold the Wycombe meet) comprised originally of three farms. The development where I live, Manor Farm, was built first, and as Leasehold. All purchasers have to sign covenants, agreeing to things like, no outside aerials, no chickens to be kept, no noisy or dangerous animals, decorating to be every three years, etc etc.
There is a management company set up comprising home owners. They see to the estate on behalf of the Leaseholder. The leases are split into two...frontage and property/rear garden.
Most of us have brought the freehold. You can only buy the property freehold, but the frontage is what they call 'merged'. In a nutshell, you own the grass on top, but the original Leaseholder owns the ground below. And the covenants still apply. You still have to pay maintenance charges to have the grass cut, and general upkeep of the estate.
If you require to add an extension, the correct way is to submit plans, etc to the management committee for approval. If you skip this, and go straight to the council for planning permission, even if you get it, the management committee can overrule, (another covenant rule). One family in my road found out to their cost, as their proposed kitchen extension, although within the building land, would have encroutched onto the frontage. Therefore after ordering bricks etc, they all had to go.
As regards Jamie's point about aerials, people started putting dishes up around the estate. The Leaseholder then sold all remaining leases to a new Leaseholder from a company in London (the original fella actually lived on the estate, just near me.)
The New Leaseholder toured the estate, and started picking on lessee's about their aerials, and if anyone started kicking up, he tried to charge them a subsidy. He asked one householder for £40, was told to FO, so then charged £60 !!!! He even threatened to make people put their windows back to original spec. !!!
However, as I said earlier, the Estate is in three developments, and he started causing trouble with another management company, who held together, took legal advice. It all comes under such things as your human rights, to coin a phrase, and being allowed to live in peace. From what I gather, the court ruled in the management committee's favour, and its all gone quiet now.
Luckily, as the covenants and Leases are different for all three area, he has not chucked his weight around this side too much.
This is why it is so important that the legal team do thorough surveys when you buy a property.
Covenants and agreements stand today, as they did donkey's years ago.
Sorry if off the OP....but thought I needed to say a bit ;D
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Firstly thanks to everyone who has replied, this is what I love about OOF you can post up about the most random thing, yet still get so much helpful advice. :y
To answer a few questions:
1) There is just one tank serving all 9 plots, even though it is under my 'land' it's not mine, it says that on the title.
2) It's fresh water only, nothing ceptic, the plan clearly shows two lines from each plot. Surface Water Drainage & Foul Drainage. Surface water leads from each plot to this tank, which spans gardens of the two biggest plots. The foul lines can clearly be seen leaving the close not going near this tank.
3) There is an inspection hatch from what I can see in my garden, perhaps use a pump for free car wash water? :D
4) The road is un-adopted, I cannot see any signs saying private land.
5) It's the responsibility of the Management Company to maintain the road in the close, it's very small, less than half the size of yours Jaime :y
6) Terbet - Thanks for all that, I can really draw some similarities to my situation. :y
7) 'attenuation tank' was just a posh word for 'soakaway'? - Yup that's how it see it too.
Now my only real concern, which was highlighted by Vache, is what if it over flows? Does it just back up along the original drainage lines or would there be an over-flow some place else? It does look quite vast, but then again rain can produce a lot of water in a short space of time.
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One would have hoped that somebody didn't just plonk a tank of any size in the ground and hoped for the best, but it would be worth checking that correct land surveys and calculations were carried out to determine exactly how much rain water can be handled by this soak-away and that it exceeds what would be deemed as excessive rainfall for a number of days.
I would have thought that after the installation of said tank, it would have been monitored, and likely, still monitored. See if you can get your hands on the data gathered.
Effectively, the cost of burying a 1000 litre tank would be less than a 10,000 litre tank - Obviously, with cost being an important factor, have they installed a tank which will just manage?
I'm guessing your Insurers will need information regarding this and would likely want to do their own digging, so to speak.
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As I understand the attenuation trap that was put in to stop local flooding nearby - not that it affects us at all - is that it is a sump, and will hold a few thousand litres which it then releases slowly into the soil ... posh soakaway yes ... but it also has a high level outlet so that in the event of really extreme weather, if the tank fills up it "overflows" in a controlled manner into the drainage system, where it may well result in the flooding it was installed to prevent, if the extreme weather continues long enough..... if that makes any sort of sense .. :)
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As I understand the attenuation trap that was put in to stop local flooding nearby - not that it affects us at all - is that it is a sump, and will hold a few thousand litres which it then releases slowly into the soil ... posh soakaway yes ... but it also has a high level outlet so that in the event of really extreme weather, if the tank fills up it "overflows" in a controlled manner into the drainage system, where it may well result in the flooding it was installed to prevent, if the extreme weather continues long enough..... if that makes any sort of sense .. :)
Thanks, it does, very much so :y
According to the plans this tank does link up outside the close, so I suspect this is the over-fill. Because this this road already had full complement of houses so to speak, I'm guessing the council did not want another 9 plumed in, so this soak away was put in. However it over flows it drops down into main drains....
Slowly building list of questions to confirm all this, along with solicitor doing his searches :)
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Regarding TBs point about third party liability for pot hole damage/injury there should be a public liability insurance policy in place and some sort of preventative maintenance system in place for monitoring road/kerb/pavement condition :y
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Regarding TBs point about third party liability for pot hole damage/injury there should be a public liability insurance policy in place and some sort of preventative maintenance system in place for monitoring road/kerb/pavement condition :y
That's what was in place here till we got council adoption of roads/paths etc. All came out of maintenance fees up till then.
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Regarding TBs point about third party liability for pot hole damage/injury there should be a public liability insurance policy in place and some sort of preventative maintenance system in place for monitoring road/kerb/pavement condition :y
That's what was in place here till we got council adoption of roads/paths etc. All came out of maintenance fees up till then.
Sounds good, something else to double check :y
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Now my only real concern, which was highlighted by Vache, is what if it over flows? Does it just back up along the original drainage lines or would there be an over-flow some place else? It does look quite vast, but then again rain can produce a lot of water in a short space of time.
"Whats the worse that will happen?" as they say on TG ;D
It should have an overflow. If that doesn't work for whatever reason, you are in the realms of the garden getting a bit soggy. You'd need a shit load of rain for it to come about the damp course, assuming thats higher than the top of the tank?
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Now my only real concern, which was highlighted by Vache, is what if it over flows? Does it just back up along the original drainage lines or would there be an over-flow some place else? It does look quite vast, but then again rain can produce a lot of water in a short space of time.
"Whats the worse that will happen?" as they say on TG ;D
It should have an overflow. If that doesn't work for whatever reason, you are in the realms of the garden getting a bit soggy. You'd need a shit load of rain for it to come about the damp course, assuming thats higher than the top of the tank?
I think the over-flow may go into the main council based drainage, not sure on damp course. :-\
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Council will only adopt our road if it is first bought upto current legislation standards ::) won't be this decade ;D
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My road is unadopted, as we found out at the Jubilee. Council cock-up it appears. I'm not surprised.
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My road is unadopted, as we found out at the Jubilee. Council cock-up it appears. I'm not surprised.
I'm surprised by that :o
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Likewise, my road is unadopted. It is being dug up in December to replace the cast iron water main that keeps breaking.
Residence will be making sure it is reinstated properly, if not it won't be the first time they have been made to come back and redo the work. :y :y :y
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Attenuation tanks are more and more common on new estates as a method to meet the latest SUDS requirements. This will reduce your water bills a bit as it means you don't have to pay for surface water drainage.
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Attenuation tanks are more and more common on new estates as a method to meet the latest SUDS requirements. This will reduce your water bills a bit as it means you don't have to pay for surface water drainage.
Ahh good to know Mark thanks :y
What is the usual setup if one of these tanks fills up? Or are they hugely over capacity?
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We have a balancing pond about 200 years away for the same reason, runoff from what used to be hills, now being houses. The steam that used to run in my front garden is now a culvert, that runs under the road. This was done, before I bought the the house. Before this was done the road was unmade and used to flood but as part of the inducement the residents were offered the free tarmacing of the road, small speed humps, and bollards halfway along to stop it becoming a rat run, all of which were accepted and make it a very pleasant place to live. :y :y :y
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We have a balancing pond about 200 years away for the same reason, runoff from what used to be hills, now being houses. The steam that used to run in my front garden is now a culvert, that runs under the road. This was done, before I bought the the house. Before this was done the road was unmade and used to flood but as part of the inducement the residents were offered the free tarmacing of the road, small speed humps, and bollards halfway along to stop it becoming a rat run, all of which were accepted and make it a very pleasant place to live. :y :y :y
200 years away is no good, you'll be dead. And if you have a geyser in your front garden, you should run your central heating from it. ;D
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try yards. :o :o :o :o ;D ;D ;D ;D
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try yards. :o :o :o :o ;D ;D ;D ;D
And stream ;) ;D
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Rods has been at his sloe gin!!! ;D ;D ;D
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Attenuation tanks are more and more common on new estates as a method to meet the latest SUDS requirements. This will reduce your water bills a bit as it means you don't have to pay for surface water drainage.
Ahh good to know Mark thanks :y
What is the usual setup if one of these tanks fills up? Or are they hugely over capacity?
It depends how they have been constructed
Have a read here for more info:
http://www.pavingexpert.com/drain12.htm
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Rods has been at his sloe gin!!! ;D ;D ;D
I wish, busy working. Took a 10 minute break with my mind still on work when I wrote this ::) :o and didn't bother previewing what I had written. :-[
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Attenuation tanks are more and more common on new estates as a method to meet the latest SUDS requirements. This will reduce your water bills a bit as it means you don't have to pay for surface water drainage.
Ahh good to know Mark thanks :y
What is the usual setup if one of these tanks fills up? Or are they hugely over capacity?
It depends how they have been constructed
Have a read here for more info:
http://www.pavingexpert.com/drain12.htm
Thanks for that link, very interesting reading. As far as I can see in those examples no over-flow was fitted, unless in my situation another drain pipe was taken off top and down to drains.
As it's sealed in those examples, I guess it either backs up along the drains, or the pressure of water forces it to be adsorbed quicker?
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You'll find out if it dosnt work when Noah is knocking on the door ;D