Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: darrenfos on 04 January 2014, 13:26:32
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hi all, is it easy to replace timing belt on a 2001 2.6 i am a fairly good with mechanic's i have had a look at the Haynes manual, and looks fairly straight forward with position to top dead center and then the removal, what im asking is what is the little important things to do along the way to get it right.
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Use the correct setting gear
Change the whole kit
Use a torque wrench
Take your time
:y
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does the DVD cover the 2.6 engine
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does the DVD cover the 2.6 engine
All fairly the same some have an adjuster lower pulley some don't
Lock tools needed for sure :y
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Had James do mine recently and was suprised how many bits came off the car, personally if you can run to it with something so important i would get someone on OOF to have a look with the right tools
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just watched a video on internet on a saab and it looks really straight forward with the tools there's a lot of scare mongering with the timing belt i can think of allot tougher jobs, as long as its top dead center and using correct tool's there's not allot to it.
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just watched a video on internet on a saab and it looks really straight forward with the tools there's a lot of scare mongering with the timing belt i can think of allot tougher jobs, as long as its top dead center and using correct tool's there's not allot to it.
You're correct, it is straight forward. You do need the timing kit though ..... otherwise you're guessing ;)
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Thank god for that, I thought this was going to be another "I don't need a locking kit" thread.
Good man. Easy enough with a locking kit, but as Rob says don't be surprised if the lower roller has no eccentric adjustment.
Long plenum can be tilted up to save time if you prefer.
Other than that, iirc, it's as the omega DVD, which was done on a 3.0 so there's subtle differences, and far easier than the Saab front wheel drive configuration.
Getting the belt on can fuddle beginners, but if your used to doing cam belts getting it on the right teeth won't be new to you.
Be prepared to modify an Allen key for the tensioner adjustment as it can foul tightening the nut, depending in your tools. But it's no biggy.
Just check it for torque settings and timing marks a couple of times before it goes back together.
And the one that gets me, lining up the crank pulley bolts. They look evenly spaced, but aren't. It only goes on one way. Careful not to over tighten the water pump bolts, torque settings are clear in Haynes for the pre face lift model, it all aplies.
... Er, can't think of anything else....?
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Oh yes, ring spanner for the adjustable idler(s). Some kits have it, most not.
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Locking kit - why would you need one of them. Set the pulleys so that the teeth are 'looking at each other' and you've just done the exact same thing the locking kit achieves. Plenty of scaremongery on this forum, seems people are just short on imagination.
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Locking kit - why would you need one of them. Set the pulleys so that the teeth are 'looking at each other' and you've just done the exact same thing the locking kit achieves. Plenty of scaremongery on this forum, seems people are just short on imagination.
You've never done a timing belt on one of these engines then ;). Do a cam belt first then comment. :y :y :y
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Locking kit - why would you need one of them. Set the pulleys so that the teeth are 'looking at each other' and you've just done the exact same thing the locking kit achieves. Plenty of scaremongery on this forum, seems people are just short on imagination.
If you wrote
"plenty of experience on this forum" you would be making a far more accurate statement, and that experience proves that without the correct locking kit it is almost impossible to correctly time the V6 .. although the law of averages says that the odd one "might" just be right, purely by chance.
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Oh dear,the cam can easily rotate and trying to line up 4 cams at the same,will need mutilple hands and sets of eyes,just use the correct locking kit and it will be easy and correct :y
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Locking kit - why would you need one of them. Set the pulleys so that the teeth are 'looking at each other' and you've just done the exact same thing the locking kit achieves. Plenty of scaremongery on this forum, seems people are just short on imagination.
You've never done a timing belt on one of these engines then ;). Do a cam belt first then comment. :y :y :y
;)
yep, not entirely sure how the wheels will look at each other. First time the belt cover comes off it is clear that one won't work on this engine. Use the proper locking kit. :y
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Actually I have done a timing belt. On the vectra in situ which is a much harder job than the omega in situ. I make my living as a mechanic - running my own workshop, so I've probably seen my fair share of jobs.
A lot of experience there may be, I'm not disputing that.
So can someone please tell me why its impossible to time a v6 engine without the locking kit? The cams are locked together in a position, why is it so meant to be so hard to replicate this position? You know instantly if you're a tooth out on the belt because the marks end up way off. After you've sycronized 5 pulleys together its just down to the eccentrics for fine tuning. So why can this only be achieved with a locking kit?
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Actually I have done a timing belt. On the vectra in situ which is a much harder job than the omega in situ. I make my living as a mechanic - running my own workshop, so I've probably seen my fair share of jobs.
A lot of experience there may be, I'm not disputing that.
So can someone please tell me why its impossible to time a v6 engine without the locking kit? The cams are locked together in a position, why is it so meant to be so hard to replicate this position? You know instantly if you're a tooth out on the belt because the marks end up way off. After you've sycronized 5 pulleys together its just down to the eccentrics for fine tuning. So why can this only be achieved with a locking kit?
For a start, the belts are rarely marked, even genuine ones ::) Locking the cams also ensures that the cams won't move if accidentally knocked...
If the locking kit is used, as recommended, then it's a significant job made easy. The implications of getting it wrong are all too obvious ::)
Do you have liability insurance covering your work, and if so do they cover your work if you don't use task specific tools?
Put it another way, if you changed my cambelt without a locking kit and the belt failed, you would be paying for a new engine plus associated costs :-X
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Firstly, because the cam timing must be set using the eccentric adjusters to a resolution of less than one tooth. Getting it within a tooth is not sufficient.
Secondly, the timing marks on the backplate are not accurate enough, and the proper kit provides a jig with accurate alignment marks.
Thirdly, you're going to have a bit of a game getting the belt over 4 cams without anything moving and the proper kit has locking tools for this purpose.
I have probably done the job a dozen times and I could get it to the point that the engine will run without the kit, no doubt. It wouldn't be to an acceptable standard, though, and would take me at least twice as long, without doubt.
Given that the proper locking kit costs much less than a decent quality belt kit, I just wonder why anyone would put themselves through the pain of doing a cowboy job without the kit. If you're new to the engine or doing your own maintenance then you will get into a complete mess without the proper locking kit hence the advice here is and will remain that you do need the locking kit to change a v6 cam belt.
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Personally I don't agree with the common line on here that its not possible to change the belt without a locking kit. BUT its a million times easier, quicker, safer and much more accurate to use a locking kit than not.
I liken the the timing marks on the belt cover backing plate and crank pulley as a mechanical version of the pedal trick and paper clip test for fault codes on electrics. These tricks where included for diagnosis in countries where a diagnostic tool is rare or non existent. Tech2 might be hard to come by.
Same with a locking kit, it might be hard to come by in poorer countries. So there MUST be a way to change the belt with out a kit. Same as there is a way to read the codes without tech 2.
However, what's different about the v engine is the 4 cams need setting 2 per bank. This adjustment is infinite. It's not a case of just getting the belt on the correct teeth and set the tension. You have to position each pair of cams to within a millimetre of the timing gauge in the kit, by adjusting the tension of the top and bottom roller(if adjustable, some aren't on the Dbw cars) in order to get the timing and hence performance to its optimum.
It's very easy to be a tooth out with out the kit/using the back cover marks, and we know that performance suffers if its that far out going by old posts on here.
So, its possible to change the timing belt, tensioner and rollers (must be done as a set as its the bearings that fail) without a locking kit, but I'd never recommend trying.
ALWAYS acquire a locking kit. Two cam locks, crank lock, setting gauge, wedge, and ring spanner. ALWAYS. :)
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Ah, way too slow. ;D
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if you dont use locking tool, and you get faulty timing belt kit and something go wrong then suppler have rights valid warranty
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Of course I'm insured; I'm not playing at being a mechanic. I was referring to marks on the back plate for an indicator of being a tooth out, granted they aren't perfect but do serve. Re: the eccentrics the one between the banks has a limited range of movement before again the marks drift away from back plate notches, and if the other one is too far out the tensioner won't get enough tension on the belt and can be seen to be sitting wrong.
When I said about the pulleys looking at each other I meant with the green tool a tooth on one pulley opposes a trough on the other pulley. The red tool leaves the centre lines of a tooth on each pulley looking at each other.
So in my opinion with a little bit of prior knowledge (or instruction) of how the pulleys sit when correctly adjusted, its entirely possible to make a perfect job of timing without a kit.
Also for the record the mark on the front pulley is a perfect datum for the centre of TDC, I verified it with a degree wheel and DTI.
With some observation of the positions before removing the old parts and a bit of patience anything is do able. If I bought the locking kit for every car I worked on I would never make any money, and I've not had an issue yet.
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With some observation of the positions before removing the old parts and a bit of patience anything is do able. .....
Assuming the belt was fitted correctly in the first place. ;) It's been noted a few times by those that work on the Omega V6 a lot, that many belts are a tooth or more out in te first place. ;)
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Of course I'm insured; I'm not playing at being a mechanic. I was referring to marks on the back plate for an indicator of being a tooth out, granted they aren't perfect but do serve. Re: the eccentrics the one between the banks has a limited range of movement before again the marks drift away from back plate notches, and if the other one is too far out the tensioner won't get enough tension on the belt and can be seen to be sitting wrong.
When I said about the pulleys looking at each other I meant with the green tool a tooth on one pulley opposes a trough on the other pulley. The red tool leaves the centre lines of a tooth on each pulley looking at each other.
So in my opinion with a little bit of prior knowledge (or instruction) of how the pulleys sit when correctly adjusted, its entirely possible to make a perfect job of timing without a kit.
Also for the record the mark on the front pulley is a perfect datum for the centre of TDC, I verified it with a degree wheel and DTI.
With some observation of the positions before removing the old parts and a bit of patience anything is do able. If I bought the locking kit for every car I worked on I would never make any money, and I've not had an issue yet.
This is exactly why we see members posting/joining up to see why their car runs like a bag of shite, only to find the car has been worked on by a mechanic with exactly that approach. The end of which sees members posting up demanding to name and shame the garage concerned.
Its your lively hood though, so up to you of course.
Yes I've done a v6 with no locking kit in my pre forum days, and having now used one on several occasions, there's no way to guarantee accuracy without it. None.
Whilst I fully appreciate a mechanic has to deal with numerous models in a daily basis, and you have my sympathies there, you also need to remember that we have the luxury of concentrating on one model alone on here. There's a few members here that know this car very well indeed. ;)
There's no way on earth I'd take my car to a mech with this approach, sorry, but no.
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That's your opinion, you're entitled to it. And you're not alone, loads of people would side with you. Would love to do some dyno runs with the timing set in various places and compare to the proper set up, just for the hell of it, because I like experimenting. It'll have to wait until I get an omega though (if ever) because its too long winded to play with the vectra timing in situ.
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Of course I'm insured; I'm not playing at being a mechanic. I was referring to marks on the back plate for an indicator of being a tooth out, granted they aren't perfect but do serve. Re: the eccentrics the one between the banks has a limited range of movement before again the marks drift away from back plate notches, and if the other one is too far out the tensioner won't get enough tension on the belt and can be seen to be sitting wrong.
When I said about the pulleys looking at each other I meant with the green tool a tooth on one pulley opposes a trough on the other pulley. The red tool leaves the centre lines of a tooth on each pulley looking at each other.
So in my opinion with a little bit of prior knowledge (or instruction) of how the pulleys sit when correctly adjusted, its entirely possible to make a perfect job of timing without a kit.
Also for the record the mark on the front pulley is a perfect datum for the centre of TDC, I verified it with a degree wheel and DTI.
With some observation of the positions before removing the old parts and a bit of patience anything is do able. If I bought the locking kit for every car I worked on I would never make any money, and I've not had an issue yet.
This is exactly why we see members posting/joining up to see why their car runs like a bag of shite, only to find the car has been worked on by a mechanic with exactly that approach. The end of which sees members posting up demanding to name and shame the garage concerned.
Its your lively hood though, so up to you of course.
Yes I've done a v6 with no locking kit in my pre forum days, and having now used one on several occasions, there's no way to guarantee accuracy without it. None.
Whilst I fully appreciate a mechanic has to deal with numerous models in a daily basis, and you have my sympathies there, you also need to remember that we have the luxury of concentrating on one model alone on here. There's a few members here that know this car very well indeed. ;)
There's no way on earth I'd take my car to a mech with this approach, sorry, but no.
Quite agree with this, makes a lot of sense to me, my mechanic did my 2.2 including the waterpump, has said he wouldn't do the 2.6 as he did not have the correct tools for it.
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I will defo use the kit and watch the dvd and use the manual for torque settings thanks for the help, i can do most jobs as long as a ramp is not needed but u should never be afraid to ask for advise, u never stop learning.
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Of course I'm insured; I'm not playing at being a mechanic. I was referring to marks on the back plate for an indicator of being a tooth out, granted they aren't perfect but do serve. Re: the eccentrics the one between the banks has a limited range of movement before again the marks drift away from back plate notches, and if the other one is too far out the tensioner won't get enough tension on the belt and can be seen to be sitting wrong.
When I said about the pulleys looking at each other I meant with the green tool a tooth on one pulley opposes a trough on the other pulley. The red tool leaves the centre lines of a tooth on each pulley looking at each other.
So in my opinion with a little bit of prior knowledge (or instruction) of how the pulleys sit when correctly adjusted, its entirely possible to make a perfect job of timing without a kit.
Also for the record the mark on the front pulley is a perfect datum for the centre of TDC, I verified it with a degree wheel and DTI.
With some observation of the positions before removing the old parts and a bit of patience anything is do able. If I bought the locking kit for every car I worked on I would never make any money, and I've not had an issue yet.
You need to recognise mate that not everyone is as clever as you ( ::)), and the forum advice is aimed at all members, hence the forum recommendation to use the correct locking kit. It never helps for the odd member who thinks he knows better than some of the guru's on here to post "bad" advice which others may follow with bad results. ;)
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Thanks for levelling with me, I appreciate what you're saying, in hindsight you're right. I should stick to least said, soonest mended.
just pains me to see people spending money on gear when they could manage without if only for the want of the right instruction.
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Anyone know how much the gm belt kit is.
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Thanks for levelling with me, I appreciate what you're saying, in hindsight you're right. I should stick to least said, soonest mended.
just pains me to see people spending money on gear when they could manage without if only for the want of the right instruction.
;)
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A few facts.
1) You can change the belt without the kit,
2) You cant time the banks up correctly without the timing gauge
2) The eccentrics do two things, the first sets the 3-4 cam to crank timing, the second the 1-2 to 3-4 cam bank timing.
So, we have a decision here, do we want to do a quality job which aligns with that done by the OE engine supplier in the factory OR a short cut bodge?
There will be no process used during the construction of these power plants which is not required and anybody who considers the process to set the timing with the correct gauge is not required is a fool (or considers themselves more intelligent than the high skilled personnel who designed the unit).
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Anyone know how much the gm belt kit is.
Got mine off ebay - £40 iirc - used it so far on 5 belt kit changes :y
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Of course I'm insured; I'm not playing at being a mechanic. I was referring to marks on the back plate for an indicator of being a tooth out, granted they aren't perfect but do serve. Re: the eccentrics the one between the banks has a limited range of movement before again the marks drift away from back plate notches, and if the other one is too far out the tensioner won't get enough tension on the belt and can be seen to be sitting wrong.
When I said about the pulleys looking at each other I meant with the green tool a tooth on one pulley opposes a trough on the other pulley. The red tool leaves the centre lines of a tooth on each pulley looking at each other.
So in my opinion with a little bit of prior knowledge (or instruction) of how the pulleys sit when correctly adjusted, its entirely possible to make a perfect job of timing without a kit.
Also for the record the mark on the front pulley is a perfect datum for the centre of TDC, I verified it with a degree wheel and DTI.
With some observation of the positions before removing the old parts and a bit of patience anything is do able. If I bought the locking kit for every car I worked on I would never make any money, and I've not had an issue yet.
I've watched a "professional" electrician, with numerous qualifications and some very expensive tools, work on an electrical installation without isolating it, because "if you know what you are doing you don't need to switch it all off, and shutting down/restarting all those systems would take far too long ...." .... less than 10 minutes later I was giving him mouth-to-mouth and CPR whilst a colleague was calling for paramedics and a de-fibulator (luckily he did survive)....
My point is ... familiarity can breed contempt, and even "experts" can get it wrong,... and as dbug said .... the forum is aimed at the amateur DIYer.. not the professional business owner.
I've had cam-belts done twice, by very helpful, semi-professional, members of the forum, and they both used the correct kit.
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Of course I'm insured; I'm not playing at being a mechanic. I was referring to marks on the back plate for an indicator of being a tooth out, granted they aren't perfect but do serve. Re: the eccentrics the one between the banks has a limited range of movement before again the marks drift away from back plate notches, and if the other one is too far out the tensioner won't get enough tension on the belt and can be seen to be sitting wrong.
When I said about the pulleys looking at each other I meant with the green tool a tooth on one pulley opposes a trough on the other pulley. The red tool leaves the centre lines of a tooth on each pulley looking at each other.
So in my opinion with a little bit of prior knowledge (or instruction) of how the pulleys sit when correctly adjusted, its entirely possible to make a perfect job of timing without a kit.
Also for the record the mark on the front pulley is a perfect datum for the centre of TDC, I verified it with a degree wheel and DTI.
With some observation of the positions before removing the old parts and a bit of patience anything is do able. If I bought the locking kit for every car I worked on I would never make any money, and I've not had an issue yet.
You need to recognise mate that not everyone is as clever as you ( ::)), and the forum advice is aimed at all members, hence the forum recommendation to use the correct locking kit. It never helps for the odd member who thinks he knows better than some of the guru's on here to post "bad" advice which others may follow with bad results. ;)
Well said Mr. dbug . . . :y :y but good to see the OP that andystobbs has taken it on the chin ;) ;)
Edit: oops ! just realised that Andy was not the OP (original poster) now adjusted ;)
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Jesus I'm getting a frying here. Never expected it would come down to name calling. Won't be making any further posts in this thread.
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Anyone know how much the gm belt kit is.
Got mine off ebay - £40 iirc - used it so far on 5 belt kit changes :y
Genuine... tensioner, idlers and backing plate is around £115, the Gates or Contitech kits are available from Buypartsbuy for less :y
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The gm one aint that much more after all then.
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You need to be sure you get the correct kit for your engine, as there are three variations of backing plate...
All explained on the dvd iirc :y
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Anyone know how much the gm belt kit is.
Got mine off ebay - £40 iirc - used it so far on 5 belt kit changes :y
Genuine... tensioner, idlers and backing plate is around £115, the Gates or Contitech kits are available from Buypartsbuy for less :y
Sorry mate thought you meant locking kit (didn't read your post properly). Bought my cam belt kits from buypartsby, for around £60 (may be a bit more now) - they supply Contitech kits (OEM supplier) - had no probs at all with these kits. HTH
http://www.buypartsby.co.uk/buy/VAUXHALL/OMEGA/__/54/engine/belts-tensioners/timing-belt-kits/ (http://www.buypartsby.co.uk/buy/VAUXHALL/OMEGA/__/54/engine/belts-tensioners/timing-belt-kits/) - just fill in your engine size etc ;)
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Thanks for levelling with me, I appreciate what you're saying, in hindsight you're right. I should stick to least said, soonest mended.
just pains me to see people spending money on gear when they could manage without if only for the want of the right instruction.
You could turn that round by saying .....
it pains me to see people paying someone else to do a job that they could easily do themselves for the price of a locking kit ;) ;) ;)
My SP locking kit was around £50 second hand ..... I'm sure your labour would be more than twice that to do the job should I choose someone else to do what I can do myself (I too twirl spanners for a living ;) :y)
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Locking kit isn't that expensive, and would pay for itself in lost time after two or three cam belts. Plus the car will run right when your done, happy customers come back.
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Thanks for levelling with me, I appreciate what you're saying, in hindsight you're right. I should stick to least said, soonest mended.
just pains me to see people spending money on gear when they could manage without if only for the want of the right instruction.
You could turn that round by saying .....
it pains me to see people paying someone else to do a job that they could easily do themselves for the price of a locking kit ;) ;) ;)
My SP locking kit was around £50 second hand ..... I'm sure your labour would be more than twice that to do the job should I choose someone else to do what I can do myself (I too twirl spanners for a living ;) :y)
and probably 3 times if you're going to pay someone labour to mess about doing it without the locking kit. ;)
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To the OP, good on you for having a go yourself :y
Just be very careful. When I did mine last year and it went I was scratching my head wondering what I'd done. Having mulled over it for a long time I believe that I moved the lower idler to time 3/4 bank and didn't reset the tensioner. I think.
But if you do balls it up like me it's a blessing in disguise... all those gaskets and seals you get to renew :o :o :o :y ;)
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Eastleigh is not a million miles from me. If you get stuck or have any questions give me a shout.