Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: terry paget on 05 January 2014, 14:37:25
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X84GNB 2.5 petrol manual estate
A month ago above car refused to start, though it cranked vigorously enough. Crank sensor, thought I. Had to be Siemens, I knew. Found one on e-bay, £25, for 2.5 Omega, Siemens, right part number. I bought it, it was made in France, and hd part number ground off. I installed it, fault cured. 2 weeks later, in a deluge, misfire developed. Serves me right, I thought, cheap sensor. Bought Vx sensor, fitted it. Misfire remained. Changed plugs, 3 & 6 oily, inferring dodgy dis pack, so changed dis pack. Misfire cured.
Last Friday, after stalling twice, engine stopped and refused to restart. Rang wife to rescue me, when she arrived engine restarted, stalled twice more, but got me home. Vx crank sensor no good, thought I.
This morning engine would not start. I replaced the Vx crank sensor with the £25 sensor. Engine started OK. Drove 30 miles drive, no problems.
That Vx sensor had done about 60 miles before failing. I shall return it to dealer next Friday, demanding a replacement.
Perhaps Vx sensors are going the same way as water pumps.
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Define "would not start". Cranking only, cranking firing stalling, no cranking?
Any codes?
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Define "would not start". Cranking only, cranking firing stalling, no cranking?
Any codes?
Cranking only.
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Re stalling....Did it stall on the power or at tickover?
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And, any codes? :)
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Re stalling....Did it stall on the power or at tickover?
Stalled on tickover.
I did not check for codes, EML had not come on or flickered. Last Sunday codes 132 and 17 appeared after dis pack change. I expect they are still stored. Fault seemed classical crank sensor so I changed it.
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Re stalling....Did it stall on the power or at tickover?
Stalled on tickover.
I did not check for codes, EML had not come on or flickered. Last Sunday codes 132 and 17 appeared after dis pack change. I expect they are still stored. Fault seemed classical crank sensor so I changed it.
It does appear that way, just looking for possible other causes before you have to buy another.
Stalling on tick over is usually icv, but could also be cs. Misfire in a deluge could be leaking scuttle.
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132 egr feedback incorrect signal. Is it blocked / plugged in?
17 knock sensor signal bank 2. Is the wire trapped?
I'd also check again, see if you have 19 crank sensor
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Re stalling....Did it stall on the power or at tickover?
Stalled on tickover.
I did not check for codes, EML had not come on or flickered. Last Sunday codes 132 and 17 appeared after dis pack change. I expect they are still stored. Fault seemed classical crank sensor so I changed it.
It does appear that way, just looking for possible other causes before you have to buy another.
Stalling on tick over is usually icv, but could also be cs. Misfire in a deluge could be leaking scuttle.
Misfire was caused by dis pack. When removed one end was split, and the plates were exposed and rusty. On replacement of dis pack the misfire was cured. I made a point of sealing the scuttle around the central wiper shaft hole, using Vx cam cover gasket sealant.
I presume Bellingers will replace the failed crank sensor under warranty. I bought it on December 20th.
There was no fuel delivery on cranking when the engine would not start 4 weeks ago. I was told that this is normal as the fuel pump relay is ECU controlled and is only powered when the ECU detects crank sensor pulses.
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Maybe the problem is a poor connection between crank sensor and ECU (but not the usual problem with the flying lead from the sensor).
Have you checked that the locking ring is tight on the big round plug and that the ECU is securely plugged in? (better still check for water or corrosion in the metal pins of those connectors)
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132 egr feedback incorrect signal. Is it blocked / plugged in?
17 knock sensor signal bank 2. Is the wire trapped?
I'd also check again, see if you have 19 crank sensor
Thanks Chris. I think I have confused you. Those codes were last Sunday. The knock sensor was not plugged in; I plugged it in. The EGR valve solenoid was very loose. I changed it The EML light stayed on Sunday, but went off Monday. The wire was OK.
All was well Wednesday, and I was looking at the possible n/s rear wheel bearing fault, and stripping the n/s handbrake. That work is still ongoing. The car embarrassed me on Friday by breaking down in Keynsham and stopping me getting to Wantage for my weekly gathering. All seems to be well again, though time will tell.
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Maybe the problem is a poor connection between crank sensor and ECU (but not the usual problem with the flying lead from the sensor).
Have you checked that the locking ring is tight on the big round plug and that the ECU is securely plugged in? (better still check for water or corrosion in the metal pins of those connectors)
I checked the flying lead connector to the crank sensor at the roadside waiting for the wife.
I will check the big round plug and the ECU connection. Thanks for the suggestion.
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Would deffo gather more info before you bounce into vx.
As stated already there could be a wiring issue underlying. Faulty new sensors do exist ofcourse, but its uncommon - doesn't mean you haven't got one, doesn't mean you have either.
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Maybe the problem is a poor connection between crank sensor and ECU (but not the usual problem with the flying lead from the sensor).
Have you checked that the locking ring is tight on the big round plug and that the ECU is securely plugged in? (better still check for water or corrosion in the metal pins of those connectors)
There are two big round plugs at the back of the battery. The one on the engine side is not attached to the plastic plate, but broken off. Both seem securely plugged in. I cannot identify the locking ring or see how to unplug it. Is there a guide?
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Would deffo gather more info before you bounce into vx.
As stated already there could be a wiring issue underlying. Faulty new sensors do exist ofcourse, but its uncommon - doesn't mean you haven't got one, doesn't mean you have either.
Fair comment. This morning the car would not start, so I got it into the garage. I tried again to start it, again it just whirred away. I then changed the crank sensor, turned the key, and it started. I suppose I could put back the other sensor and try again. I shall not be in Wantage till next Friday, so there is plenty of time to make checks. I am open to suggestions.
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Would deffo gather more info before you bounce into vx.
As stated already there could be a wiring issue underlying. Faulty new sensors do exist ofcourse, but its uncommon - doesn't mean you haven't got one, doesn't mean you have either.
Fair comment. This morning the car would not start, so I got it into the garage. I tried again to start it, again it just whirred away. I then changed the crank sensor, turned the key, and it started. I suppose I could put back the other sensor and try again. I shall not be in Wantage till next Friday, so there is plenty of time to make checks. I am open to suggestions.
hi Terry,
am having very similar problems with my FL 2.6 MV6 . .( see thread in electrical section)
Leaning towards some sort of connection breakdown to the ECU in my book . If the ECU tells the fuel pump relay not to kick in that would cause a non start & is something I had not thought of . but as said am now leaning away from crank sensor to an ECU or ecu not getting the crank sensor info pulses . Have a read of my thread in "electricals".
regards, Al
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Did you notice whether the tacho needle moved when the engine was cranking but not starting?
If no movement then it points to crank sensor (or wiring, or connectors or input to the ECU)
If it moved then I would take a closer look at the fuel pump (and relay if there is one)
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Would deffo gather more info before you bounce into vx.
As stated already there could be a wiring issue underlying. Faulty new sensors do exist ofcourse, but its uncommon - doesn't mean you haven't got one, doesn't mean you have either.
Fair comment. This morning the car would not start, so I got it into the garage. I tried again to start it, again it just whirred away. I then changed the crank sensor, turned the key, and it started. I suppose I could put back the other sensor and try again. I shall not be in Wantage till next Friday, so there is plenty of time to make checks. I am open to suggestions.Hi Essex Big Al. Thanks for your tip. I have read your thread in Electricals. It has me worried and intrigued. It certainly gives me doubts. I shall continue to experiment. Will report back when I have anything new.quote]
hi Terry,
am having very similar problems with my FL 2.6 MV6 . .( see thread in electrical section)
Leaning towards some sort of connection breakdown to the ECU in my book . If the ECU tells the fuel pump relay not to kick in that would cause a non start & is something I had not thought of . but as said am now leaning away from crank sensor to an ECU or ecu not getting the crank sensor info pulses . Have a read of my thread in "electricals".
regards, Al
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Did you notice whether the tacho needle moved when the engine was cranking but not starting?
If no movement then it points to crank sensor (or wiring, or connectors or input to the ECU)
If it moved then I would take a closer look at the fuel pump (and relay if there is one)
No, I did not notice the tacho needle move, and I
think I would have had it done so. The fact that changing the crank sensor cured the fault strongly suggests the fault lies there. On Friday the car died after two stalls 10 miles from home. After half an hour it restarted, and got me home, though tried to stall once. This morning car would not start, or show any sign of doing so. I changed the crank sensor and it started straight away. I tried a couple of restarts, OK. I drove it to Bristol, parked, shopped, restarted car and drove home. 30 miles in all, no failures to start, no stalling.
Failure of the new Vx sensor seems most likely explanation. How do I prove it?
I may still have the original failed sensor. I could compare it electrically with my new Vx sensor and the pattern sensor. That might be enlightening.
I could replace the pattern with the Vx and see if it runs. If it does, then car wiring is suspect. If not, Vx sensor must be guilty party.
Do you agree? Have you any other suggestions? If it runs all week on pattern sensor, but will not run on Vx sensor, I could invite the dealer to change it and witness the failure.
Are not these Omegas bundles of fun? Meanwhile wife's 2.0 estate needs new lambda sensor and the 3.2 needs a new clutch. I shall never get bored,
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Unless your vx sensor is dead comparrison with a multimeter won't yield much info. Putting it back in and seeing if the car starts is a good way to test, though you might be disturbing some wiring in the process which would skew the results of any substitution.
I as a trade customer often get stonewalled by dealers with dodgey electrical bits, one job alone ended up costing me £300 to replace a part that failed one month after purchase from a dealership. Yes they offer a warranty process but its so complex that its more hassle than reward, especially with an intermittent failure.
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Yep I replaced a "dodgy" crank sensor with a genuine Vx one on the old Elite and it packed up within the month (swapped the "dodgy" one back on and car started ok, tried again with the "new" one no start). Took the new one back to Vx who said i should have got the car to them for testing (ie get it shipped/trailered 11 miles for a £45 refund!!) - not worth the effort at the end of the day, although did consider driving car to them, parking car blocking their access and swapping the new one back on!
New genuine Vx crank sensors can and do fail :o
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I have a vague recollection of there being multiple crank sensors for the 2.5, some of which have a shorter reach than others with the upshot that some don't result in reliable running. Could it be that the wrong sensor has been supplied? Note that dealers don't always get ti right, as it isn't always correct in TIS. ;)
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Yep I replaced a "dodgy" crank sensor with a genuine Vx one on the old Elite and it packed up within the month (swapped the "dodgy" one back on and car started ok, tried again with the "new" one no start). Took the new one back to Vx who said i should have got the car to them for testing (ie get it shipped/trailered 11 miles for a £45 refund!!) - not worth the effort at the end of the day, although did consider driving car to them, parking car blocking their access and swapping the new one back on!
New genuine Vx crank sensors can and do fail :o
Thanks for your support, dbug. I reckon it is the Vx sensor, but time may prove me wrong.
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Yep I replaced a "dodgy" crank sensor with a genuine Vx one on the old Elite and it packed up within the month (swapped the "dodgy" one back on and car started ok, tried again with the "new" one no start). Took the new one back to Vx who said i should have got the car to them for testing (ie get it shipped/trailered 11 miles for a £45 refund!!) - not worth the effort at the end of the day, although did consider driving car to them, parking car blocking their access and swapping the new one back on!
New genuine Vx crank sensors can and do fail :o
I blocked a certain local dealership's main drag with an elwb van until their manager came back from dinner. Fight fire with fire where dealerships are concerned.
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I have a vague recollection of there being multiple crank sensors for the 2.5, some of which have a shorter reach than others with the upshot that some don't result in reliable running. Could it be that the wrong sensor has been supplied? Note that dealers don't always get ti right, as it isn't always correct in TIS. ;)
In the maintenance guide, it makes the point that on the 2.5 it is important to replace the sensor with identical. There is a Bosch and a Siemens. My old was a Siemens, so I bought a Siemens from Vx.
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I have a vague recollection of there being multiple crank sensors for the 2.5, some of which have a shorter reach than others with the upshot that some don't result in reliable running. Could it be that the wrong sensor has been supplied? Note that dealers don't always get ti right, as it isn't always correct in TIS. ;)
In the maintenance guide, it makes the point that on the 2.5 it is important to replace the sensor with identical. There is a Bosch and a Siemens. My old was a Siemens, so I bought a Siemens from Vx.
OK but is the part number the same?
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I have a vague recollection of there being multiple crank sensors for the 2.5, some of which have a shorter reach than others with the upshot that some don't result in reliable running. Could it be that the wrong sensor has been supplied? Note that dealers don't always get ti right, as it isn't always correct in TIS. ;)
In the maintenance guide, it makes the point that on the 2.5 it is important to replace the sensor with identical. There is a Bosch and a Siemens. My old was a Siemens, so I bought a Siemens from Vx.
OK but is the part number the same?
Yes
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Yep I replaced a "dodgy" crank sensor with a genuine Vx one on the old Elite and it packed up within the month (swapped the "dodgy" one back on and car started ok, tried again with the "new" one no start). Took the new one back to Vx who said i should have got the car to them for testing (ie get it shipped/trailered 11 miles for a £45 refund!!) - not worth the effort at the end of the day, although did consider driving car to them, parking car blocking their access and swapping the new one back on!
New genuine Vx crank sensors can and do fail :o
I blocked a certain local dealership's main drag with an elwb van until their manager came back from dinner. Fight fire with fire where dealerships are concerned.
I rang Bellinger Grove, supplying main dealer, demanding a replacement crank sensor. I was told I would have to return the sensor with the car, and let them replace the sensor in the car and find it did not work. They needed job cards and TechII readings for a warranty claim.
Rubbish, I said. I am making a Sale of Goods Act claim, not a warranty claim. You have sold me a defective item, I am entitled to my money back or a replacement. Oblige me or await my small claims court summons.
Stores manager said he would ring me back. He rang back after half an hour saying in this case they would manage it somehow and I could have a replacement sensor on Friday (the day I am in Grove). I called in yesterday by appointment, to face all 3 stores staff and a manager. I got my replacement sensor. They were not very happy.
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Nice! :y
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Would deffo gather more info before you bounce into vx.
As stated already there could be a wiring issue underlying. Faulty new sensors do exist ofcourse, but its uncommon - doesn't mean you haven't got one, doesn't mean you have either.
Fair comment. This morning the car would not start, so I got it into the garage. I tried again to start it, again it just whirred away. I then changed the crank sensor, turned the key, and it started. I suppose I could put back the other sensor and try again. I shall not be in Wantage till next Friday, so there is plenty of time to make checks. I am open to suggestions.
hi Terry,
am having very similar problems with my FL 2.6 MV6 . .( see thread in electrical section)
Leaning towards some sort of connection breakdown to the ECU in my book . If the ECU tells the fuel pump relay not to kick in that would cause a non start & is something I had not thought of . but as said am now leaning away from crank sensor to an ECU or ecu not getting the crank sensor info pulses . Have a read of my thread in "electricals".
regards, Al
just a quick update Terry . . . . after new CS fitted etc. I removed both engine ECU multi connectors & the main loom connectors under the battery & used electrical contact cleaner spray on all . Unbelievable difference . . . car starts perfect , no sign of any cut out (as yet . .a week now) but the biggest thing is how much smoother & more powerful the car is . . .feels like a different car .
I always thought that this 2.6 was down on power since I've had it . . my last 2.5 seemed so much quicker but i put it down to it just being a 2.6 & that they were the least powerful of all the V6's.
seems like my problem is sorted . . .hope your is soon as well Regards Al :y
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Would deffo gather more info before you bounce into vx.
As stated already there could be a wiring issue underlying. Faulty new sensors do exist ofcourse, but its uncommon - doesn't mean you haven't got one, doesn't mean you have either.
Fair comment. This morning the car would not start, so I got it into the garage. I tried again to start it, again it just whirred away. I then changed the crank sensor, turned the key, and it started. I suppose I could put back the other sensor and try again. I shall not be in Wantage till next Friday, so there is plenty of time to make checks. I am open to suggestions.
hi Terry,
am having very similar problems with my FL 2.6 MV6 . .( see thread in electrical section)
Leaning towards some sort of connection breakdown to the ECU in my book . If the ECU tells the fuel pump relay not to kick in that would cause a non start & is something I had not thought of . but as said am now leaning away from crank sensor to an ECU or ecu not getting the crank sensor info pulses . Have a read of my thread in "electricals".
regards, Al
just a quick update Terry . . . . after new CS fitted etc. I removed both engine ECU multi connectors & the main loom connectors under the battery & used electrical contact cleaner spray on all . Unbelievable difference . . . car starts perfect , no sign of any cut out (as yet . .a week now) but the biggest thing is how much smoother & more powerful the car is . . .feels like a different car .
I always thought that this 2.6 was down on power since I've had it . . my last 2.5 seemed so much quicker but i put it down to it just being a 2.6 & that they were the least powerful of all the V6's.
seems like my problem is sorted . . .hope your is soon as well Regards Al :y
Thanks, Al. I found the two round connectors behind the battery, but could not see how to unlock them. IT may be in the maintenance guides. Anyway, all seems to be well now, running on the pattern sensor.
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This thread has made me feel very uncomfortable, as i have a spare OE sensor in the boot of the 3.2 for emergency use! :-\ :-\ :-\
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This thread has made me feel very uncomfortable, as i have a spare OE sensor in the boot of the 3.2 for emergency use! :-\ :-\ :-\
Snap ... :)
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This thread has made me feel very uncomfortable, as i have a spare OE sensor in the boot of the 3.2 for emergency use! :-\ :-\ :-\
Snap ... :)
And me. ;)
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Thanks for your concern, chaps. However, the 2.5 is very fussy about its crank sensors, and only the right one will do. Two are listed and were fitted, but this forum says only same as original will work satisfactorily.
I am impressed that so many of you carry spares around with you, and dismayed that you feel the need to do so. Also that you carry tools and have the skills to replace the wretched things.
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Thanks for your concern, chaps. However, the 2.5 is very fussy about its crank sensors, and only the right one will do. Two are listed and were fitted, but this forum says only same as original will work satisfactorily.
I am impressed that so many of you carry spares around with you, and dismayed that you feel the need to do so. Also that you carry tools and have the skills to replace the wretched things.
I've carried one for 5 years in this car, and 3 in the last one, without ever using it.... so they don't fail that often.... however .. it is one component that if/when it fails it stops the car dead. It only needs a torx head to change it, and all green flag vans have those .. but getting the CS is not going to be that easy.. so carrying one is a bit like carrying a spare wheel IMHO .. :) :) :)
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Thanks for your concern, chaps. However, the 2.5 is very fussy about its crank sensors, and only the right one will do. Two are listed and were fitted, but this forum says only same as original will work satisfactorily.
I am impressed that so many of you carry spares around with you, and dismayed that you feel the need to do so. Also that you carry tools and have the skills to replace the wretched things.
I've carried one for 5 years in this car, and 3 in the last one, without ever using it.... so they don't fail that often.... however .. it is one component that if/when it fails it stops the car dead. It only needs a torx head to change it, and all green flag vans have those .. but getting the CS is not going to be that easy.. so carrying one is a bit like carrying a spare wheel IMHO .. :) :) :)
Good thinking, Entwood. To change sensor at the roadside one needs a decent jack and ideally an axle stand, not items I intend to carry all the time. But the AA and the like carry them, and the torx spanner. Next question; will my spare 2.5 sensor also fit a 3.2, and will my spare 2.0 sensor fit a 2.2?
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Thanks for your concern, chaps. However, the 2.5 is very fussy about its crank sensors, and only the right one will do. Two are listed and were fitted, but this forum says only same as original will work satisfactorily.
I am impressed that so many of you carry spares around with you, and dismayed that you feel the need to do so. Also that you carry tools and have the skills to replace the wretched things.
I've carried one for 5 years in this car, and 3 in the last one, without ever using it.... so they don't fail that often.... however .. it is one component that if/when it fails it stops the car dead. It only needs a torx head to change it, and all green flag vans have those .. but getting the CS is not going to be that easy.. so carrying one is a bit like carrying a spare wheel IMHO .. :) :) :)
Good thinking, Entwood. To change sensor at the roadside one needs a decent jack and ideally an axle stand, not items I intend to carry all the time. But the AA and the like carry them, and the torx spanner. Next question; will my spare 2.5 sensor also fit a 3.2, and will my spare 2.0 sensor fit a 2.2?
Probably not IMHO .. :( as there are loads of different part numbers :(
2.0 90493864, 90458251, 9174621
2.2 9148306
2.5 90492006, 90492061, 90540743
3.2 90540743
I had the "correct" one for my 2.5, it was unused and still sealed in its VX plastic bag with all labels/seals intact. When I got the 3.2 I asked - on the grounds don't ask don't get -my local parts bloke, whilst buying oil/filters/antifreeze etc if he would change it and he just said yes and did it .... :) no charge at all ..