Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: JamesV6CDX on 27 May 2014, 18:40:36
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Took ownership of a very well presented 2.2 DTi Estate today thanks to VXL V6 - I am certainly very happy with my purchase. I have always been very scathing of the idea of a 4 pot diesel in an Omega, but actually it seems like a reasonable lump!
I'd like to see if the forum can pull our heads together over it's problem, to see if I can get it sorted :)
VXL's take on the problem is that the revs are dropping off, and he suspected the diesel pump may be the culprit. Having driven the car 100ish miles today on the motorway I am not sure that it is the pump. From research, it appears that pump issues mainly cause bad / no starting, and symptoms of fuel starvation / cutting out. This car hasn't got any of that - it will rev high and doesn't misfire or skip a beat, it also starts on the button including from cold/warm
What I did notice, is that the problem is apparant under load only. My personal view is that is has a clutch issue, and I just wanted to seek some opinion on that from OOF. I think it's clutch slip.
So for example, cruising along the M40 at 70mph in 5th gear, the revs are at about 2500. Put foot down even lightly, and as soon as the turbo spools up / some more power goes in, the revs shoot up to say, 3500rpm, maybe a little more, but with absolutely no increase in road speed. They then drop, after 2/3 seconds, to what is normal, and the car will keep pulling (albeit a little sluggish than I thought it'd be) - sometimes this will happen a couple of times or more if you keep your foot planted.
My instinct was immediately clutch slipping. The only thing I can't work out though, is why would it not KEEP slipping - indeed, if it is clutch slip, it appears to lose traction, gain traction, lose traction, gain traction, etc.... rather than just spin uncontrollably like I'd expect a slipping clutch?
There appears to be no fault lights. The orange light with the picture of the engine comes on with ignition and goes off when running. The picture of the car with the spanner doesn't illuminate at all.
Opinions very welcome please :y
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If you suspect clutch then it may be worth splitting the box and checking the clutch and DMF as a starting point... At least an R28/30 doesn't weigh as much as an AR35!
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If you suspect clutch then it may be worth splitting the box and checking the clutch and DMF as a starting point... At least an R28/30 doesn't weigh as much as an AR35!
Agreed... a clutch will be a million times easier to do than a diesel pump! :y
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I had similar problems with my 2.5 manual car. The clutch would slip intermittently ,sometimes kept slipping until i pressed and released the clutch pedal , after which it was usually ok until its next use or sometimes stayed ok ...was like this for a week or so,eventually got much worse. When i removed the clutch the "connections/locating/holding straps" from the pressure plate to the clutch housing had all broken....my thoughts are that sometimes the pressure plate would just spin,other times the broken connectors would just catch and it wotked ok.
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I would agree with clutch
When my 03 dti's pump started playing up it would either just die or no power and only rev to 3k.
Found it would cut out more when hot (turn off ignition count to 3 and restart).
Was also worse if fuel low.
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I would agree with clutch
When my 03 dti's pump started playing up it would either just die or no power and only rev to 3k.
Found it would cut out more when hot (turn off ignition count to 3 and restart).
Was also worse if fuel low.
Fault diagnosed
Went out for Italian tune up
Stopped 2 miles from home to do tyre pressures
Restarted. Cannot select any gears. Clutch has totally let go (and stinks)
Had to start her in gear and drive home without a clutch, thankfully it's a straight line!
I'm actually very pleased about this. It confirms the diagnosis and is a cheap easy fix
On a bright note I've fixed the radio!! :y
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All the clutch kits online are "2 piece" meaning no thrust bearing? Any idea for this?
Also does anyone know if exhaust (cat) has to be removed on the Dti to get the gearbox off? :y
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LUK Repest Pro is what you'll want James, this has all three pieces. Taxi Al replaced the clutch on one of my 3.2's and this was the kit used. It's pretty much what was fitted from the factory. I'll find the box with the part number on it and PM it to you :y
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All the clutch kits online are "2 piece" meaning no thrust bearing? Any idea for this?
Also does anyone know if exhaust (cat) has to be removed on the Dti to get the gearbox off? :y
Vauxhall? Not changing it can, from experience, lead to failure resulting in catastrophic damage to (in no particular order)...
Slave cylinder
Pressure plate
Friction plate
Flywheel
Bellhousing
Three piece kit should include slave cylinder with release bearing attached, but both available separately from Vauxhall. Be daft not to change everything in the bellhousing if you're going to drop the box :y
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All the clutch kits online are "2 piece" meaning no thrust bearing? Any idea for this?
Also does anyone know if exhaust (cat) has to be removed on the Dti to get the gearbox off? :y
Vauxhall? Not changing it can, from experience, lead to failure resulting in catastrophic damage to (in no particular order)...
Slave cylinder
Pressure plate
Friction plate
Flywheel
Bellhousing
Three piece kit should include slave cylinder with release bearing attached, but both available separately from Vauxhall. Be daft not to change everything in the bellhousing if you're going to drop the box :y
Totally agree Al, I want to do it all while I'm in there :y
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http://www.buypartsby.co.uk/details/VAUXHALL/OMEGA/3.2/2003/__/33/624165233/clutch-kit/
http://www.vauxhallworldparts.com/vauxhall.php?partnumber=624165233
for the 3 piece kit
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That appears to be for the 3.2 josh? :y
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Apparently all the same, it's the same clutch used in the 2.6 / 3.2 and 3.0 and apparently 2.2 DTI.
My 3.2 estate had a gearbox from a DTI fitted, with the DTI clutch aswell. Seemingly it was exactly the same!
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Agree with the above :y
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All the clutch kits online are "2 piece" meaning no thrust bearing? Any idea for this?
Also does anyone know if exhaust (cat) has to be removed on the Dti to get the gearbox off? :y
Vauxhall? Not changing it can, from experience, lead to failure resulting in catastrophic damage to (in no particular order)...
Slave cylinder
Pressure plate
Friction plate
Flywheel
Bellhousing
Three piece kit should include slave cylinder with release bearing attached, but both available separately from Vauxhall. Be daft not to change everything in the bellhousing if you're going to drop the box :y
I totaly disagree in this case, if it was a FWD then yes, totaly but, the rear wheel drive slave cylinder is bullet proof plus you can still replace the release bearing if required as it clips into the slave.
So the slave cylinder I would rate as optional only and definately not essential.
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All the clutch kits online are "2 piece" meaning no thrust bearing? Any idea for this?
Also does anyone know if exhaust (cat) has to be removed on the Dti to get the gearbox off? :y
Vauxhall? Not changing it can, from experience, lead to failure resulting in catastrophic damage to (in no particular order)...
Slave cylinder
Pressure plate
Friction plate
Flywheel
Bellhousing
Three piece kit should include slave cylinder with release bearing attached, but both available separately from Vauxhall. Be daft not to change everything in the bellhousing if you're going to drop the box :y
I totaly disagree in this case, if it was a FWD then yes, totaly but, the rear wheel drive slave cylinder is bullet proof plus you can still replace the release bearing if required as it clips into the slave.
So the slave cylinder I would rate as optional only and definately not essential.
The previous owner of my first 3.2, Devon and Cornwall Police, replaced the clutch without renewing the release bearing. Net result was it shattering, this broke the slave casing, the pressure plate and punched the friction plate in to the flywheel hard enough to take chunks out of the face of it. The resulting debris also scoring the inside of the bellhousing. I was reversing into a parking space at the time, so all done at just above idle.
The issue is that two piece clutch kits require the, imho essential, release bearing to be acquired separately therefore allowing it to be overlooked, whereas the three piece kits include the release bearing as part of the slave.
Whoever fitted the previous clutch to Joshs' car clearly hadn't changed the release bearing, as it had more play in it than all of Shakespeares' work.
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Thats not what I stated, I stated that the slave cylinder is optional and that the release bearing can be changed without changing the slave. :y
All the '2 piece' (which appear to actualy be three piece) Luk and Borg n Beck clutch sets for the Omega I have seen and used came with the release bearing.
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And quoting the Luk site:
Clutch discs, clutch assembly and clutch release bearings all play an essential part in professional repair work on a worn clutch. These components are included in the LuK RepSet® and guarantee safe function.
The LuK RepSet® Pro also contains a concentric slave cylinder, which now combines the slave cylinder and release bearing in one component in one in every two cars.
:y
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I was agreeing with you :y
Reading your quote from Luk, it seems they now include the release bearing in the standard clutch kit, which isn't something that they used to, ime :-\ First clutch in mine was an Luk one and had to buy the Repset Pro to get the release bearing as it 'was not available separately and not included in the two piece kit'... might be where the confusion is from :-\
The last time I changed it, I fitted a genuine NOS 3 piece kit and left the slave cylinder alone :y
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Interestingly, have we ever seen a slave cylinder fail on here?
I saw one many moons ago but it was not an original, it was a pattern item and not a recognised brand.
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The one I referred to was only replaced as the catastrophic failure of the release bearing cracked it :y
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I would agree with clutch
When my 03 dti's pump started playing up it would either just die or no power and only rev to 3k.
Found it would cut out more when hot (turn off ignition count to 3 and restart).
Was also worse if fuel low.
Did you fix it? Was it the electronic part, or mechanical part of pump that failed?
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Apparently all the same, it's the same clutch used in the 2.6 / 3.2 and 3.0 and apparently 2.2 DTI.
My 3.2 estate had a gearbox from a DTI fitted, with the DTI clutch aswell. Seemingly it was exactly the same!
on 2.2 dti was fitted SAC clutch where you need special tool to fit correct other way your clutch will last 5K if you lucky
3.0 one its just standard clutch
EDIT:
that what you need for SAC clutches
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp5KeAQntGM
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I can't see the video out and about on my phone, are you able to describe what needs to be done differently with this clutch? I'd have thought if the components are the same the fitting would be also?
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Video reads like a sales pitch...
You need a 6" extension and a deep socket, large enough diameter to just fit through the friction plate to centre it 15mm springs to mind. Lock the crank with a suitable socket/breaker bar. Position the friction plate on the flywheel, then insert the socket/extension bar home. Pressure plate is then fitted to the dowels, the bolts inserted finger tight. Then tighten the bolts 720° at a time, in opposite fashion, same as you would wheel nuts. The pressure plate will clamp the pressure plate after three or four turns, but don't remove the 'alignment tool' until you're done. Once all the bolts are home, and the pressure plate is tight to the flywheel, torque them as per Haynes bearing in mind that the friction plate bolts to one side of the dmf, the crank to the other so there is some give on the flywheel as you slacken/tighten the pressure plate bolts. Locking the ring gear won't change this :y
When you offer the gearbox up make sure it's in gear so you can turn the input shaft from the prop end incase it doesn't slot straight in :y
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Cheers Al :y
I've done a couple of omega clutches just not a Dti, so essentially it's saying use an alignment tool ? :y
As an aside do you know if the cat/exhaust must come off the Dti to split the box? :)
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Can't help with the engine specific questions as only ever done 3.2 clutches, but I would assume yes, as the box has to come straight back to remove it, and typically down pipes foul the bell housing :-\
The key thing that Sereks tool emphasised was the need to tighten the bolts progressively and evenly. This keeps the self adjusting mechanism happy and prevents the friction plate from moving as the pressure plate clamps it down :y
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Yep, as per Al's statement, the self adjusting clutches have a built in compensator that can be triggered if the pressure plate is not pulled down to the flywheel evenly.
Many part turns of the pressure plate bolts works but is time consuming (and not 100% fool proof) and hence the tool.
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I'm not sure I would call five minutes time consuming, after all it's only six bolts :-\
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Sorry if this is a dumb question. But is it only the Dti that has a self adjusting pressure plate? (And hence needs the tool)
I thought earlier it was stated the parts are the same across all models inc v6? So why don't they need a tool to pull it evenly into the flywheel? :y
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Apparently all the same, it's the same clutch used in the 2.6 / 3.2 and 3.0 and apparently 2.2 DTI.
My 3.2 estate had a gearbox from a DTI fitted, with the DTI clutch aswell. Seemingly it was exactly the same!
OK sorry chaps, I know it doesn't take much but I'm really confused
The consensus on here is that the 2.6/3.0 clutch kit is the same one that's fitted to the 2.2 DTi.
Yet - researching the parts on buypartsby website, only the 2.2 DTi one is the SAC (self adjusting clutch). The others just appear to be a normal clutch kit.
So - it can't possibly be the same clutch kit? As the 3.0 for example isn't self adjusting and doesn't need the tool? :)
Also - the buypartsby website specifically says that the 2.2DTi repset clutch kit they sell does NOT come with a release bearing! (unless you buy the "pro" one, which is over £100 more!!)
Yet - the 3.0 clutch kit listed does come with a bearing, and is just over £100.
I don't have a tool to evenly install the pressure plate on a self adjusting clutch.
Is there any good reason why I cannot or should not buy a clutch kit for a 3.0 litre model and just fit that? Would it cause any harm? The car will not be used for any towing at any point.
I'd really appreciate some opinions as I want to start the repairs ASAP :y
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The consensus on here is that the 2.6/3.0 clutch kit is the same one that's fitted to the 2.2 DTi.
Wrong. Totally different part number on VX TC site
2.6/3.0 is 93185903
2.2DTI is 93185906
No other Omega uses the 2.2DTI part number
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The consensus on here is that the 2.6/3.0 clutch kit is the same one that's fitted to the 2.2 DTi.
Wrong. Totally different part number on VX TC site
2.6/3.0 is 93185903
2.2DTI is 93185906
No other Omega uses the 2.2DTI part number
Cheers Rob. Can you check if the flywheel is the same part please? :y
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And while your'e at it, please could you give me a part no for the release bearing on the 2.2 DTi, so I can see about getting one from VX if needsbe? :y
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Only DMF listed is for the 2.2DTI #9201098
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Only DMF listed is for the 2.2DTI #9201098
And is that different to the V6 ones? :)
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And while your'e at it, please could you give me a part no for the release bearing on the 2.2 DTi, so I can see about getting one from VX if needsbe? :y
Think it`s this one James 90465672
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Only DMF listed is for the 2.2DTI #9201098
And is that different to the V6 ones? :)
Unsure James. As said, TC site only lists the DMF for 2.2DTI :-\
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I'm told the DMF is very robust in these.
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I'm told the DMF is very robust in these.
My line of thought is that if it's the same DMF as v6, I could get away with a 3.0 clutch kit :y
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V6 flywheel wont fit it to DTI !
you can try use clutch of V6 with dti flywheel
have both will check tomorrow in workshop if can be exhange
edit:
if you get stuck have tool here if you need to borrow :y
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The repset pro also includes a 'free' slave cylinder for the extra cash... About £90 separately :y
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If you could please serek as I'm hoping to order the bits today :y
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Just been looking up summat in the Vauxhall 2003 Omega sales brochure, and stumbled on this...
The petrol 2.2 (and presumably the 2.0) has a clutch diameter of 229mm.
The diesel 2.2 and the 2.6 (and presumably the 3.2) have a clutch diameter of 241mm. :y
The Dti and 2.2 have the same gearbox ratios. The 2.6 ratios are different.
All have different diff ratios too. :y