Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Webby the Bear on 03 June 2014, 17:48:15
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Hi guys,
Symes and the NOOFers are currently arranging a welding master class which I am very much looking forward to.
However, as you know I'm an inquisitive bear and I've got a few questions if some kind soul could help?
Let's take the sills as an example...
I'm no engineer or designer but I cut out the rot and then how the hell do I get the new steel the correct shape to weld? Beat the hell out of it??? And how do I hold the new metal in place to weld it to the body?
Any info you could give me about the physical practise so I have a load of info before I go to Symes would be awesome :)
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Shaping metal to fit is where gas welding comes into its own, however due to today 'elf'n'safety' culture it seems that everybody is too scared to carry it these days ..... MIG/TIG is easier & cheaper & supposedly safer. You heat the metal to cherry red where you want the bend/shape & then gently clout it. Depends what you're welding to what as far as holding it, there are a multitude of wide jawed Vicegrips or if you want a butt weld there are clamps specifically for the job http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xbutt+weld+clamps&_nkw=butt+weld+clamps&_sacat=0&_from=R40 while you tack it all together. :y
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Thanks Andy.
So you have to have an aceteline torch to heat it up also?
With sills I notice that they're pinch welds... forgive the dodgy drawing but if you were to look at it from the front of the car would it look like this...
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee402/webbybear1/sills_zpsc2dc96f7.png) (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/webbybear1/media/sills_zpsc2dc96f7.png.html)
Thus I would only need to make one bend if I was making an inner sill and welding it on?
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Thanks Andy.
So you have to have an aceteline torch to heat it up also?
It's so much easier if you do. It's years though now since I've gas welded anything.
With sills I notice that they're pinch welds... forgive the dodgy drawing but if you were to look at it from the front of the car would it look like this...
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee402/webbybear1/sills_zpsc2dc96f7.png) (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/webbybear1/media/sills_zpsc2dc96f7.png.html)
Thus I would only need to make one bend if I was making an inner sill and welding it on?
Originally, a sill like that would be spot welded every inch or so throughout its length .... I'm not sure though if it'd have to be a continuous weld these days if you're replacing a sill :-\
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Hi guys,
Symes and the NOOFers are currently arranging a welding master class which I am very much looking forward to.
However, as you know I'm an inquisitive bear and I've got a few questions if some kind soul could help?
Let's take the sills as an example...
I'm no engineer or designer but I cut out the rot and then how the hell do I get the new steel the correct shape to weld? Beat the hell out of it??? And how do I hold the new metal in place to weld it to the body?
Any info you could give me about the physical practise so I have a load of info before I go to Symes would be awesome :)
Best and by far the easiest is to get a replacement sill cut the old one off and clean up face ready to weld new sill in place on the mating face of the new sill drill 1/4" holes every 1"-1 1/2" that way it will be like a spot weld on the top edge just stitch weld it at the same distance then grind off the high spots and apply filler sand and body shutz. jobs a good un. :y :y
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You make a cardboard template,of the piece you want then transfer that to the sheet metal,then for bends and folds use a folder,or an English wheel, its a die,ing art is metal fabrication, i was never that good at it,but have seen some very good fabricators,panel beaters at work :y, which is an art worth being able to do. :)
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Check out this thread from Retro rides, guy called Tony BMW is the dogs danglies at welding and it shows some detail about what you are asking
http://retrorides.proboards.com/thread/119596
And another about making panels
http://retrorides.proboards.com/thread/70135/panels#.U44ixSimWIY
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Check out this thread from Retro rides, guy called Tony BMW is the dogs danglies at welding and it shows some detail about what you are asking
http://retrorides.proboards.com/thread/119596
And another about making panels
http://retrorides.proboards.com/thread/70135/panels#.U44ixSimWIY
Excellent job Tony has done , enjoyed that thread :y
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Check out this thread from Retro rides, guy called Tony BMW is the dogs danglies at welding and it shows some detail about what you are asking
http://retrorides.proboards.com/thread/119596
And another about making panels
http://retrorides.proboards.com/thread/70135/panels#.U44ixSimWIY
Excellent job Tony has done , enjoyed that thread :y
This ones even better !
http://retrorides.proboards.com/thread/88328?page=1#.U44sUCimWIY
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Wow those are some great threads there. But I think I need to do the basics first lol
By the way can someone post the link where I can get a new rear wing from ready for installation once I've learned the welding? And if anyone has a link to a new sil that would be sweet thanks boys
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The good news is that the thickness of metal you'll be using is easily formed with handtools and other commonly available stuff. You can probably scrounge a lot of it. A couple of smallish hammers(in good condition), marker pen and a steel rule, a chunk of metal(dolly is the correct term, and is a good idea to buy one), some snips, some clamps(cheap G clamps from the bargain tool stands in the market) and two lengths of 2" angle iron about a foot long is enough to start with.
Starting with floors and other panels that aren't in sight is a good idea.
Going back to your pic, you would make the floor panel by clamping the metal between your angle iron, and gently tapping it over a few inches at a time. Work your way along the edge 2 or 3 times, and you'll have a nice tight 90degree flange. You could make the sill in a similar way, but could put the curve in by wrapping it around something of roughly the right diameter - a length of pipe, full coke bottle, lamp post whatever you find. Always make a perfectly fitting template from light cardboard. Always. It's a real timesaver, let alone reducing your scrap rate.
Once you've made a few panels, it gets much easier. You'll find yourself looking at things and thinking I could use that to form a thingy. Beads in floors can be done with a ball pein hammer and the jaws of a vice. Or you screw clamp a length of hardboard to some MDF, and chase the metal along it with a blunt cold chisel for a much neater result.
Don't worry about gas welding or heat for this sort of job, it isn't necessary. Mig welding is easily enough, but you will also need an angle grinder both to remove the old panels and to ensure that the metal is clean enough to weld to.
Dave Gardiners DVD from metalshapingzone.com is highly recommended, as it shows how to do both simple and complicated stuff without the expensive tools. English wheels are often mentioned, but unless you're making lots of highly curved panels they aren't necessary, and even then make the job easier. About the only 'big' tool that is worth buying as soon as you can is a shrinker/stretcher for curved flanges.
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Impressive. Very impressive. :y
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Thanks very much Nick.... spot on!!! So basically cos its so thin I can beat it in to shape. ill check that out thanks mate :)
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The best thing to do with tin bashing is have a go.
I do quite a bit of various levels of complexity on the unit and various coaches etc, not to hard once you know the basics.
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Thanks Mark, and all who have inputted :)
Just a quickie....
I signed up to the Mig welding forum (a link you provided I think mark, so thanks) and they reckoned the following pic is just surface rust on the chassis rail/leg and I should get a wire wheel to it, clean it up and treat it.
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee402/webbybear1/Rust001_zps257a12f7.jpg) (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/webbybear1/media/Rust001_zps257a12f7.jpg.html)
Do we agree on here that it looks like surface rust and I should give this a go? Would be quite handy to get one area done so I don't have as much to do overall
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....obviously being careful of the wires, brake lines etc etc :y
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Pps, can I simply buy this stuff from bnq to use on the car...
http://www.diy.com/nav/build/building-materials/builders-metal-work/metal_sheet_panels/-specificproducttype-smooth_steel_panel/Steel-Panel-Steel-Coloured-L-500mm-W-250mm-9284156
its 1mm thick, I think that's right?
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Thats pretty pricey, most good motor factors stock steel sheet :y
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And yes, just surface rust, clean it up with a cup brush in the grinder and paint well.
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sweet sweet sweet. chgeers mate :) :) :) :)
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Wire brushed all the rust underneath the mv last weekend and covered it in grease :)
Those steel sheets are expensive , you can get repair steel plates from egay in packs of 8 a lot cheaper than that :)
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Looks like surface rust to me , wire brush it and seal it :y
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grease best or engine oil? I have a pot of black lithium grease that I neveruse......
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grease best or engine oil? I have a pot of black lithium grease that I neveruse......
Peel off any loose underseal then slap some grease on it .. I use hammerite for larger areas , anything thats to hand as long as its covered :)
Wheel arch areas and spray off areas would be better with hammerite . longer lasting :)
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Thanks Mark, and all who have inputted :)
Just a quickie....
I signed up to the Mig welding forum (a link you provided I think mark, so thanks) and they reckoned the following pic is just surface rust on the chassis rail/leg and I should get a wire wheel to it, clean it up and treat it.
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee402/webbybear1/Rust001_zps257a12f7.jpg) (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/webbybear1/media/Rust001_zps257a12f7.jpg.html)
Do we agree on here that it looks like surface rust and I should give this a go? Would be quite handy to get one area done so I don't have as much to do overall
Yup :y a wire brush and if you can get a small grinder or dremil like tool in to really clean up then spray the area with a shutz let it dry then waxoyl it. :y :y :y
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Thanks Kev :y
Is there a decent substitute that I can use that wont rust? I presume not as people would be raving about it but worth asking.....
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If you go back to bare metal after derusting I'd suggest a couple of stages prior to applying stonechip or Schutz underseal. Get it as clean as possible and then apply two good coats Hydrate 80 rust inhibitor followed by two further coats of Zinc 182 primer.Seal any welds with good quality seam sealer , I apply a PU sealer initially and then a brush on top seal. Stock up with Aldi metal paint ( better than smoothrite ) next time it's on sale and apply a another two or three coats of the colour of your choice . Then two ( I prefer three ) coats of stonechip /underseal applied at circa 45 psi with a good Schutz gun allowing each coat to flash off before next. This will give you better rust protection than factory finish.
Re metal forming . If you are going to do it buy an inexpensive hammer and dolly set . Mine cost circa €30 and has done sterling service on my E24 restoration , well worth the small sum paid.
I use many different sections of scrap steel to form and shape steel but the most used is / are lengths of right angle . Used in conjunction with a stout vice you can create as many shapes as your imagination allows . Clamp them at different heights and you can create steps in the sheet , used with G clamps you can create flanged edges of whetever depth you require , space them apart using a suitable spacer you can create valleys or any shape of indentation you require . I also have a selection of steel rods of various diameters and shaped ground ends that are used to create more difficult or replicate original factory shapes . To create curves as said , using 20 swg sheet ( 0.9mm ) it is surprisingly easy to curve and bend . I have several pipes of diameters between 1 to 4 inch to create the shape required. To create the curve for the floor on the sketch I'd clamp the sheet between two right angle sections in a vice and then G clamp a pipe of suitable diameter onto one angle section and the gently pull the steel over the pipe to the required angle . I invested in a low cost sheet steel bender from Poland / E bay . Cost about £110 but has paid for itself allowing me to make my own sills and numerous flanged repair sections . I came close to purchasing a shrinker / stretcher but have found that small curves can be stretched out using gentle hammering , tighter curves are either made from welding two sections together or simply cutting V's out of the flange prior to curving around a suitable pipe .
You'll be surprised how quickly you learn to curve and shape sections and will soon be trying to make better and more accurate sections .
Just remember that every car is made up of various multi shaped panels that are joined by attaching two flanges together , as long as you can eventually mate these two flanges and weld them together , job done .
I couldn't buy a sill section for my e24 so made this in 18swg , I had to make it in two sections .
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/olympia5776/Auric%20The%20635/IMGP0251_zps40a2569f.jpg) (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/olympia5776/media/Auric%20The%20635/IMGP0251_zps40a2569f.jpg.html)
And likewise with floor sections as they are unavailable .
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/olympia5776/Auric%20The%20635/IMGP0883_zps2343f565.jpg) (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/olympia5776/media/Auric%20The%20635/IMGP0883_zps2343f565.jpg.html)
You'll definatly enjoy the welding and fabrication course and it'll give you so much more confidence in repairing bodywork.
Good luck and enjoy it :y
Edit , I should add that flap wheels on an angle grinder are far better suited at removing rust than wire brushing.
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I should add that flap wheels on an angle grinder are far better suited at removing rust than wire brushing
Yes , forgot about the flap wheel . Very good for rust removal , but how would you remove surface rust in a tight spot :-\
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I should add that flap wheels on an angle grinder are far better suited at removing rust than wire brushing
Yes , forgot about the flap wheel . Very good for rust removal , but how would you remove surface rust in a tight spot :-\
If you work on car body work then you shouldn't be without one of these,
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/olympia5776/_12_zps3477d600.jpg) (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/olympia5776/media/_12_zps3477d600.jpg.html)
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I should add that flap wheels on an angle grinder are far better suited at removing rust than wire brushing
Yes , forgot about the flap wheel . Very good for rust removal , but how would you remove surface rust in a tight spot :-\
If you work on car body work then you shouldn't be without one of these,
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/olympia5776/_12_zps3477d600.jpg) (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/olympia5776/media/_12_zps3477d600.jpg.html)
Whats that bit of kit called ? Looks just the job :y
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Power file, or for air powered ones then looking for an "air belt sander" will find a range..
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Thanks for all the info Olympia et al.
It looks like the welding master class will be this month so keep your eyes peeled for some photos of the ensuing carnage :)
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Webby, I blame you for this entirely.. but a cheap welder just came up on another forum I frequent, so I'm now the proud owner of a MIG welder.. ;D
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Webby, I blame you for this entirely.. but a cheap welder just came up on another forum I frequent, so I'm now the proud owner of a MIG welder.. ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D my fault I know
Are you going to br doing an oof master class too? ;)