Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega Electrical and Audio Help => Topic started by: Bigron on 08 June 2014, 17:39:53
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Usually the first start of the day is perfect, but after a run, then leaving it for an hour or so, restarting has the starter cranking away for several seconds, as if the battery were low/flat, then it usually picks up and starts.
The battery is a few weeks old, so in good condition - checked by leaving headlight on for a long time and minimal drop in terminal voltage. I also thoroughly cleaned the battery terminals and connectors, with the exception of the lead to the starter itself, as I couldn't get near it.
Does this point to a failing starter motor, or does anyone have any other ideas, please?
Ron.
P.S. Are there any mobile mechanics near Witham, Essex, as I have other problems, too!
"When sorrows come, they come not single spies. But in battalions."
P.S. Any mobile mechanics near Witham, Essex, as I have other problems, too!
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I've got the exact same issue and I suspect the same cause. What engine is yours? Mine is a 2.2dti
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2.6 V6 petrol saloon, '51 Reg.
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Also, if I start it from cold it's usually OK, but if I move it across the work car park for example (ie not far at all), knock it off while I wash it out something for a few minutes, it's them a bugger to start. Lots of white smoke when it does start from flooding itself
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Usually the first start of the day is perfect, but after a run, then leaving it for an hour or so, restarting has the starter cranking away for several seconds, as if the battery were low/flat, then it usually picks up and starts.
The battery is a few weeks old, so in good condition - checked by leaving headlight on for a long time and minimal drop in terminal voltage. I also thoroughly cleaned the battery terminals and connectors, with the exception of the lead to the starter itself, as I couldn't get near it.
Does this point to a failing starter motor, or does anyone have any other ideas, please?
Ron.
P.S. Are there any mobile mechanics near Witham, Essex, as I have other problems, too!
"When sorrows come, they come not single spies. But in battalions."
P.S. Any mobile mechanics near Witham, Essex, as I have other problems, too!
Might need to define this a bit more, Clicking, starter cranking over very slowly?
Check Battery volts, a good battery should read around 12.5 - 12.7 Volts with Ing. off (assuming fully charged).
Whats the battery volts doing when cranking over, ideally needs to be measured at the battery end and then at the Starter Motor end to see if you have voltage drop due to a bad connection (use some decent jump leads to the Volt meter at the starter end so you can see whats going on when cranking) measure both the above twice, once with the Neg (0v) of the Voltmeter on the Battery and then again with the Voltmeter Neg on an Earth Chassis point, and post up results.
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It might NOT be the starter motor!
The crimped connection at the positive battery terminal is getting quite hot, noticeable even when idling with no electrical loads on apart from just the engine.
I have cleaned the connectors, inspected the crimps and flexed them, but all LOOKS well enough. With the engine off, there is no current drain via the fat lead that disappears down towards the alternator/starter area, and only the expected current drain via the red lead to the fusible link when lights are turned on.
I am considering obtaining a positive battery clamp assembly from a scrappy and chopping/connecting my cables to it - does anyone have a car being broken at the moment (RobG)?
Ron.
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None here Ron
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Thanks for looking, anyway, Rob.
I'm sure with all of the members here, somebody must have one - else it's off to the scrappy, if there is a Vx breaker locally........
Ron.
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You can buy battery terminals with a Clamp down bolt on to the Cable but they need to made up well, if that helps. ;)
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Thanks, zirk. I've been looking on ebay but not too impressed - Omegas have a peculiar positive terminal arrangement!
I'm slightly confused about the nature of this problem: as outlined earlier, the terminal(s) get hot, but no drain to the alternator/starter cables - thinking again as I type this, I'm going to have to check again, as I don't believe myself....more to come, I guess!
Ron.
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Sorry Ron only just spotted this, I have the pos + lead still attached to my 2.2 breaker if they are the same length etc :-\
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Ron, before you start ripping out and replacing your wiring, did you do the Voltage checks I suggested in my first post?
you can help prove the Starter wiring by using a decent Jump Cable between the Batt Pos and Starter Motor Connection and see if that aids in Starting.
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"zirk", all the voltage measurement confirm that I have a happy battery and charging system and I will try linking the starter directly to the battery as soon as I have a jump lead!
If it works, I think I'll bypass the original cable permanently - or check with "omegod" regarding price and carriage for his breaker assembly (hint, hint....)?
I went tio a local boot sale this morning, plus some visits to various shops, and therefore needed to start the engine several times: when it was reluctant to start, keeping the ignition key engaged slowly brought the starter up to speed, and then the engine started.
On arriving home, I checked the terminal's temperature by hand and it was F. hot!
Ron.
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"zirk", all the voltage measurement confirm that I have a happy battery and charging system and I will try linking the starter directly to the battery as soon as I have a jump lead!
If it works, I think I'll bypass the original cable permanently - or check with "omegod" regarding price and carriage for his breaker assembly (hint, hint....)?
I went tio a local boot sale this morning, plus some visits to various shops, and therefore needed to start the engine several times: when it was reluctant to start, keeping the ignition key engaged slowly brought the starter up to speed, and then the engine started.
On arriving home, I checked the terminal's temperature by hand and it was F. hot!
Ron.
Ok, cool, but the checks I suggested about measuring any Voltage drops in various places was to see if any leads or Earth return was breaking down or poor connections, ie, large Voltage drop across a direct point to point should indicate a suspect lead or connection.
Try the Jump lead to the Starter, i would only suspect the lead or Terminal to get hot whilst cranking over.
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I'm with you all the way, "zirk", but the odd thing in my view is the fact that the terminals at the battery clamp were that hot when I got home, at least 1/2 hour after the last engine crank.
The negative terminal and connections were all at ambient temperature, as you would expect.
Ron.
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One thing to check and its free is the main positive battery cable where it connects to the battery clamp and the starter, they are normally covered with insulation and can rot the core without being seen. My neighbour had various "flat battery" symptoms when trying to start his Sharan. He went to change the starter motor as this was suspected and the end of the main cable was a bit "wobbly" so he investigated why and it pretty much fell apart as the core/cores has corroded away. The easiest way for you to check the battery end would be to hold it whilst someone cranked the motor off the key, same with the starter end but make sure you are not wearing anything metallic as you don't want to short it out whilst you are wearing something, gets rather hot!!!
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"Magwheels", you have a good point. I have already done resistance checks at the terminals without finding anything untoward, but I will certainly make a physical inspection tomorrow, peeling back all insulation, etc.
I really want to know why the terminals are hot even some while after cranking, with just the engine on tick-over. All I can think of is heating due to alternator charging current into a high resistance crimped terminal?
Ron.
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"Magwheels", you have a good point. I have already done resistance checks at the terminals without finding anything untoward, but I will certainly make a physical inspection tomorrow, peeling back all insulation, etc.
I really want to know why the terminals are hot even some while after cranking, with just the engine on tick-over. All I can think of is heating due to alternator charging current into a high resistance crimped terminal?
Ron.
Loose connections, corrosion or some other reason for a high resistance in that connection ... it needs taking apart and cleaning up. heat at an electrical connection is simply the sign of a bad connectiion
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"Magwheels", you have a good point. I have already done resistance checks at the terminals without finding anything untoward, but I will certainly make a physical inspection tomorrow, peeling back all insulation, etc.
I really want to know why the terminals are hot even some while after cranking, with just the engine on tick-over. All I can think of is heating due to alternator charging current into a high resistance crimped terminal?
Ron.
What happens is that individual cable strands snap where the greatest stress is next to the cable crimp. There are probably only 3 or 4 strands hanging on now.
If you give it a firm pull the cable will probably separate from the crimp (so don't try this until you have a replacement handy)
15 years ago the alternator warning light started glowing on my Carlton while I was still a couple of hours from home. I stopped and had a poke at the alternator and the lead came away in my hand. ::)
Fortunately I had a few tools with me and there was plenty of space to get at the alternator. I managed to open up the crimp and used mole grips to make a half decent new crimp connection :y
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"Entwood" and "Andy", you are both on the money, I'm sure. My task for today is to have a proper look at the crimps and remake them if possible - just a 1/2 hour job that shouldn't take more than the day!
Andy, I wish you hadn't mentioned your Carlton: I had one some years back and loved it. Unfortunately, it didn't love me and after several problems too many, it had to go to its final resting place!
Ah, Carlton Estate (2.2) in Midnight Blue metallic........
:'(
Ron.