Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Rods2 on 20 June 2014, 20:04:44
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Unfortunately, large quantities of Russian armour is on the move from where the separatists created a corridor in the last few weeks in the Lugansk region. :'( >:( >:( >:(
http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-123-for-diplomats-and-doubters-a-ministers-picture-of-a-russian-tank/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-123-for-diplomats-and-doubters-a-ministers-picture-of-a-russian-tank/)
Russia have announced that they don't recognise the Ukraine border. >:( >:( >:( >:(
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I thought they'd just announced a cease-fire. ???
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I thought they'd just announced a cease-fire. ???
I think that has been done with a metaphorical gun held to the Ukrainian president's head, where the Ukrainian army has been winning in East Ukraine, but they are no match for a full Russian onslaught. Russia will probably say, they have invaded on humanitarian grounds (they haven't, this is a land grab) to try to minimise the protests and sanctions from the West.
The Ukrainian president had a phone call with Putin, just before the ceasefire was announced. So there was probably something along the lines: You cause Russian casualties by resisting we will take over all of Ukraine, no resistance and we will just annex the East (and probably South-East), and we will leave you (probably for now) West Ukraine. >:( >:( >:( >:( Russia is looking for a corridor to Transnistria to bring Moldova (by invading if necessary) back under their full sphere of influence, where Moldova are looking to join the EU and Nato.
The West is going to have to get very tough with Putin, where his next target is annexing the Baltic states. Again this will be, like in Ukraine, by using a 5th column, useful fools and unidentified, plausibly denied, green men etc. He is already trying to create unrest amongst ethnic Russians in these countries and squeezing them wherever possible economically. To stay in power where the economy and living standards have not been growing at a pace to keep Putin's key Russian officials happy with ever increasing living standards, he is going the alternative empire building route, to court popularity and to stay in power. With Crimea this worked with the highest ever approval rating of 80% by the Russian population.
The problems with this is that it is very easy to overstep the mark as you get over confident, like Hitler did with Poland and start a major European war and also the resistance trying to get back their country. Ethnic Russians are 17.3% of the population of Ukraine. Polls have shown the for the vast majority of Ukrainians (and many Ukrainian Russians) freedom and their right to self-determination is much more important than wealth. In Russia it is the reverse. >:( >:( >:( >:(
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This could get very nasty. :( :( :(
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I was curious how they stayed patient that long ;D :D
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He who forgets History is doomed to repeat it!
The West seems to be sleepwalking into disaster on all Fronts, just as it did at the turn of the 20th Century!
Just when are we going to get the Leadership with the wisdom & foresight to say 'enough is enough!' ???
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How Russia has annexed Crimea and destabilized and is taking over Ukraine using "Asymmetric warfare" was outlined by the Russian General Staff to Putin about a year a go. The message has been there but very few have been taking any notice. This link below is a very interesting read. Their comment is that its success means it will probably be used again and again by them, which is seriously bad news for European and the worlds stability, when an unaccountable evil dictator has such levers under his control.
http://www.interpretermag.com/putins-actions-in-ukraine-following-script-by-russian-general-staff-a-year-ago/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/putins-actions-in-ukraine-following-script-by-russian-general-staff-a-year-ago/)
If you follow in detail what is happening in Russia there have been over the last 12 months major clampdowns on press freedom (now non-existent, it is a state controlled propaganda machine), the Internet, blogging, personal freedom and human rights as well as foreign travel by large sections of the population. All military personnel, state officials and the judiciary have to get special permission to go abroad, unless it is in the line of duty.
Where Putin is determined to recreate the Russian empire, so Russian has some relevance in the world means he has actually been following a logical path for many years to achieve these aims. This includes paying off all foreign debt (a major cause of the collapse of the Soviet Union) to inciting protests like anti-fracking demonstrations to keep Western Europe dependent on Russian oil and gas.
All very well laughing cem but there are lives being lost here. Just anonymous names and numbers, until it is people you know. Turkey may well be in their line of sight as one of Russia's dominoes. The reason people don't want to be under Russian political leadership is that they treat the populations under their control very, very badly. >:( >:( >:( >:(
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How Russia has annexed Crimea and destabilized and is taking over Ukraine using "Asymmetric warfare" was outlined by the Russian General Staff to Putin about a year a go. The message has been there but very few have been taking any notice. This link below is a very interesting read. Their comment is that its success means it will probably be used again and again by them, which is seriously bad news for European and the worlds stability, when an unaccountable evil dictator has such levers under his control.
http://www.interpretermag.com/putins-actions-in-ukraine-following-script-by-russian-general-staff-a-year-ago/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/putins-actions-in-ukraine-following-script-by-russian-general-staff-a-year-ago/)
If you follow in detail what is happening in Russia there have been over the last 12 months major clampdowns on press freedom (now non-existent, it is a state controlled propaganda machine), the Internet, blogging, personal freedom and human rights as well as foreign travel by large sections of the population. All military personnel, state officials and the judiciary have to get special permission to go abroad, unless it is in the line of duty.
Where Putin is determined to recreate the Russian empire, so Russian has some relevance in the world means he has actually been following a logical path for many years to achieve these aims. This includes paying off all foreign debt (a major cause of the collapse of the Soviet Union) to inciting protests like anti-fracking demonstrations to keep Western Europe dependent on Russian oil and gas.
All very well laughing cem but there are lives being lost here. Just anonymous names and numbers, until it is people you know. Turkey may well be in their line of sight as one of Russia's dominoes. The reason people don't want to be under Russian political leadership is that they treat the populations under their control very, very badly. >:( >:( >:( >:(
there are lives lost everywhere Rods .. all being equal worth.. either eastern or western.. or whereever..
we have fought with Russia for hundreds of years until the Ottoman Empire died and soon after Russian empire died..
but this is an internal affair - not even a war- and has nothing to do with us or anyone.. in my opinion Ukraine is a part of Russia , same people talking the same language ..
and you are only reading one sides newspapers .. Imo..
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and one more point, if west didnt involve in Ukraine with some carrots ,solutions would be more easy..
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Funny that I thought they had invaded England :(
Cause there's so many of them over here ;D
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although unrelated, if west want to do something good for the future of world, why not get rid of those mollas in iran.. they are keeping whole of their citizens under pressure.. and continously exporting sh*t heads to middle east for terror and violence >:(
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although unrelated, if west want to do something good for the future of world, why not get rid of those mollas in iran.. they are keeping whole of their citizens under pressure.. and continously exporting sh*t heads to middle east for terror and violence >:(
It seems as though we're doing a fair bit of that as well with reportedly an estimated 400 Brits fighting in Syria! :o :-\
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although unrelated, if west want to do something good for the future of world, why not get rid of those mollas in iran.. they are keeping whole of their citizens under pressure.. and continously exporting sh*t heads to middle east for terror and violence >:(
It seems as though we're doing a fair bit of that as well with reportedly an estimated 400 Brits fighting in Syria! :o :-\
They are not Brits >:( just someone with a British Passport, which should be revoked. :y
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You say that Cleggy, but most were born here, which technically makes them as British as you or I :-\
I suspect their immigrant parents/grandparents are for the most part ashamed by the presence of their offspring in these conflicts... after all, they presumably came here to get away from all that indoctrined crap in order that their families could lead a better life... :-\
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You say that Cleggy, but most were born here, which technically makes them as British as you or I :-\
I suspect their immigrant parents/grandparents are for the most part ashamed by the presence of their offspring in these conflicts... after all, they presumably came here to get away from all that indoctrined crap in order that their families could lead a better life... :-\
I not only say it but stand by it, NOT BRITS and never can be. They may have been born here, the offspring of immigrants and are rewarded with what was once a document to be proud of.... a BRITISH PASSPORT. They defile it nobody who is a true Brit would go and be a jihadist, they do not respect our values and the life given to them and their parents. Personally I would not only remove that precious document from them but all their family and boot them out. >:(
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So are they that much different than the ex squaddies who over the years have become mercenaries and have gone to fight for corrupt regimes in Africa? ::)
As it happens though I do agree with Cleggy, in that the government should make it clear that any of these guys who go off for a bit of jihadist adventure won't be able to come back! :y
Another thing to note is that the Western world has broadly supported the Syrian rebels where ISIS has sprung from, and we'll probably reap what we have sowed.... ::) :-\
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That second point is a moot one Sir Tig... odds are they won't be back. As shitty as bits of this place are, they are fluffy holiday camps compared to what is happening in Syria and Iraq :-\
Not wanting to be the doubting Thomas in the room, but have Russia actually invaded Ukraine? Really?
Given the significant implications of such an event, it would be all over the news.
If you search 'Russia invades Ukraine' all the results are either historical or speculative reports of drills :-\
If I drive from Sussex to Berwick, have I invaded Scotland? No.
If I drive from Sussex to Berwick with 10,000 mates, have I invaded Scotland? No. Sure it might be worthy of concern, but it's not an invasion. Maintaining a presence yes, which for political leverage purposes is a pretty blunt tool, but being blunt is not an act of war in its own right
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How Russia has annexed Crimea and destabilized and is taking over Ukraine using "Asymmetric warfare" was outlined by the Russian General Staff to Putin about a year a go. The message has been there but very few have been taking any notice. This link below is a very interesting read. Their comment is that its success means it will probably be used again and again by them, which is seriously bad news for European and the worlds stability, when an unaccountable evil dictator has such levers under his control.
http://www.interpretermag.com/putins-actions-in-ukraine-following-script-by-russian-general-staff-a-year-ago/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/putins-actions-in-ukraine-following-script-by-russian-general-staff-a-year-ago/)
If you follow in detail what is happening in Russia there have been over the last 12 months major clampdowns on press freedom (now non-existent, it is a state controlled propaganda machine), the Internet, blogging, personal freedom and human rights as well as foreign travel by large sections of the population. All military personnel, state officials and the judiciary have to get special permission to go abroad, unless it is in the line of duty.
Where Putin is determined to recreate the Russian empire, so Russian has some relevance in the world means he has actually been following a logical path for many years to achieve these aims. This includes paying off all foreign debt (a major cause of the collapse of the Soviet Union) to inciting protests like anti-fracking demonstrations to keep Western Europe dependent on Russian oil and gas.
All very well laughing cem but there are lives being lost here. Just anonymous names and numbers, until it is people you know. Turkey may well be in their line of sight as one of Russia's dominoes. The reason people don't want to be under Russian political leadership is that they treat the populations under their control very, very badly. >:( >:( >:( >:(
there are lives lost everywhere Rods .. all being equal worth.. either eastern or western.. or whereever..
we have fought with Russia for hundreds of years until the Ottoman Empire died and soon after Russian empire died..
but this is an internal affair - not even a war- and has nothing to do with us or anyone.. in my opinion Ukraine is a part of Russia , same people talking the same language ..
and you are only reading one sides newspapers .. Imo..
Absolutely correct Cem :y :y :y
Once again the Western powers are becoming, bit by bit, embroiled in other countries affairs that has little to do with them. This is a Russian problem involving the old states of the USSR. Those countries will learn, as we did, that the path to democracy is a long and hard one which they, and only they, have to struggle with to achieve deliverance.
Learn from history, yes! Learn that if you interfere you will pay a hell of a price and cause far greater problems than you started with. We are currently remembering the start of the Great War. We the British felt inclined, in my opinion wrongly, to become involved. After the World lost 9 million lives, PLUS 56 Million during WWII, we still think going to war is the answer. No, diplomacy is, every time, with the USA and Europe using the power of globalisation to achieve their aims. In this instance though, leave the Ukraine problem alone as it is a whole mix involving Russians, Russian speaking Ukrainians who want to be with Russia, plus Ukrainians who want democracy but are as bad as the rest when considering what others want!
Once again I am with Cem; leave it well alone!!
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What about the ginger haired fellow wondering round London enforcing Sharea(?) law than Cleggy?
I suppose he could be Irish? Maybe? ;D
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Once again the Western powers are becoming, bit by bit, embroiled in other countries affairs that has little to do with them. This is a Russian problem involving the old states of the USSR.
In this instance though, leave the Ukraine problem alone as it is a whole mix involving Russians, Russian speaking Ukrainians who want to be with Russia, plus Ukrainians who want democracy but are as bad as the rest when considering what others want!
By this reckoning Lizzie, if it's OK for Russia to interfere because Ukraine is a former USSR state, then it would have been fine for Britain to go and kick some butt in Zimbabwe, to protect the English speaking ethnic Brits living there. Had we done that Britain would have been roundly condemned by the international community and rightly so. ::)
Russia should stay out of Ukraine as well as the West and let the Ukrainians sort out their own problems. I'm sure that the ethnic Russians in Ukraine are free to move to Russia if they want to live under Comrade Putin! :y
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Once again the Western powers are becoming, bit by bit, embroiled in other countries affairs that has little to do with them. This is a Russian problem involving the old states of the USSR.
In this instance though, leave the Ukraine problem alone as it is a whole mix involving Russians, Russian speaking Ukrainians who want to be with Russia, plus Ukrainians who want democracy but are as bad as the rest when considering what others want!
By this reckoning Lizzie, if it's OK for Russia to interfere because Ukraine is a former USSR state, then it would have been fine for Britain to go and kick some butt in Zimbabwe, to protect the English speaking ethnic Brits living there. Had we done that Britain would have been roundly condemned by the international community and rightly so. ::)
Russia should stay out of Ukraine as well as the West and let the Ukrainians sort out their own problems. I'm sure that the ethnic Russians in Ukraine are free to move to Russia if they want to live under Comrade Putin! :y
No, the comparison is a different one. African States we're always part of a distant colony whose ethic roots were certainly not white British. However with Ukraine their roots from what I understand go back hundreds of years linked to what is now Russia, with Russian the common language. Perhaps I am wrong, but Ukraine is more attached to Eastern Europe and Russia than to Western Europe, and the majority of it's peoples, given what we have witnessed, think likewise.
Therefore African States have nothing to do with us British but Ukraine has everything to do with Russia. That is why I say leave it all to Russia. We must not get involved. The costs of doing so could be very costly indeed. :y
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What about the ginger haired fellow wondering round London enforcing Sharea(?) law than Cleggy?
I suppose he could be Irish? Maybe? ;D
Looks like he is Danish and an agent of MI6 :o
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How Russia has annexed Crimea and destabilized and is taking over Ukraine using "Asymmetric warfare" was outlined by the Russian General Staff to Putin about a year a go. The message has been there but very few have been taking any notice. This link below is a very interesting read. Their comment is that its success means it will probably be used again and again by them, which is seriously bad news for European and the worlds stability, when an unaccountable evil dictator has such levers under his control.
http://www.interpretermag.com/putins-actions-in-ukraine-following-script-by-russian-general-staff-a-year-ago/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/putins-actions-in-ukraine-following-script-by-russian-general-staff-a-year-ago/)
If you follow in detail what is happening in Russia there have been over the last 12 months major clampdowns on press freedom (now non-existent, it is a state controlled propaganda machine), the Internet, blogging, personal freedom and human rights as well as foreign travel by large sections of the population. All military personnel, state officials and the judiciary have to get special permission to go abroad, unless it is in the line of duty.
Where Putin is determined to recreate the Russian empire, so Russian has some relevance in the world means he has actually been following a logical path for many years to achieve these aims. This includes paying off all foreign debt (a major cause of the collapse of the Soviet Union) to inciting protests like anti-fracking demonstrations to keep Western Europe dependent on Russian oil and gas.
All very well laughing cem but there are lives being lost here. Just anonymous names and numbers, until it is people you know. Turkey may well be in their line of sight as one of Russia's dominoes. The reason people don't want to be under Russian political leadership is that they treat the populations under their control very, very badly. >:( >:( >:( >:(
there are lives lost everywhere Rods .. all being equal worth.. either eastern or western.. or whereever..
we have fought with Russia for hundreds of years until the Ottoman Empire died and soon after Russian empire died..
but this is an internal affair - not even a war- and has nothing to do with us or anyone.. in my opinion Ukraine is a part of Russia , same people talking the same language ..
and you are only reading one sides newspapers .. Imo..
Absolutely correct Cem :y :y :y
Once again the Western powers are becoming, bit by bit, embroiled in other countries affairs that has little to do with them. This is a Russian problem involving the old states of the USSR. Those countries will learn, as we did, that the path to democracy is a long and hard one which they, and only they, have to struggle with to achieve deliverance.
Learn from history, yes! Learn that if you interfere you will pay a hell of a price and cause far greater problems than you started with. We are currently remembering the start of the Great War. We the British felt inclined, in my opinion wrongly, to become involved. After the World lost 9 million lives, PLUS 56 Million during WWII, we still think going to war is the answer. No, diplomacy is, every time, with the USA and Europe using the power of globalisation to achieve their aims. In this instance though, leave the Ukraine problem alone as it is a whole mix involving Russians, Russian speaking Ukrainians who want to be with Russia, plus Ukrainians who want democracy but are as bad as the rest when considering what others want!
Once again I am with Cem; leave it well alone!!
all agreed Lizzie :y :y :y
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one important fact is; Russia have lots of investments,money and effort in Ukraine like factories, energy units, schools, universities, banks, govt buildings, roads, hospitals and many other things.. if you expect Russians and Putin to say bye bye to this much money , effort and history, I'm afraid you have to wait long :-\
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one important fact is; Russia have lots of investments,money and effort in Ukraine like factories, energy units, schools, universities, banks, govt buildings, roads, hospitals and many other things.. if you expect Russians and Putin to say bye bye to this much money , effort and history, I'm afraid you have to wait long :-\
Sevastopol. Access to the Mediterranean and the western seas. Russia will never let that go. Ever.
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Once again the Western powers are becoming, bit by bit, embroiled in other countries affairs that has little to do with them. This is a Russian problem involving the old states of the USSR.
In this instance though, leave the Ukraine problem alone as it is a whole mix involving Russians, Russian speaking Ukrainians who want to be with Russia, plus Ukrainians who want democracy but are as bad as the rest when considering what others want!
By this reckoning Lizzie, if it's OK for Russia to interfere because Ukraine is a former USSR state, then it would have been fine for Britain to go and kick some butt in Zimbabwe, to protect the English speaking ethnic Brits living there. Had we done that Britain would have been roundly condemned by the international community and rightly so. ::)
Russia should stay out of Ukraine as well as the West and let the Ukrainians sort out their own problems. I'm sure that the ethnic Russians in Ukraine are free to move to Russia if they want to live under Comrade Putin! :y
Firstly and I cannot emphasize this more strongly, Ukrainians are not Russians any more than the Irish are English. Yes, the Irish are Celts like the Welsh and Scots, likewise Russians, Ukrainians are Slavs, but like the Irish and English they have different cultures. They also like the Irish with Eire, their own nation, which they want to keep. If we decided to send a 5th column and irregular troops into Eire to put it back under British subjugation we would be, quite rightly, condemned internationally and could expect sanctions or worse. The Irish are proud of their nation, their independence and their right to self-determination and likewise so are the Ukrainians. This is why the Ukrainian anti-western presidential candidates in the May election only got 8% of the vote between them. All regions voted with a majority for the current President where they are united against a common enemy Russia. The Russian terrorists in East Ukraine have been bitterly complaining they have received virtually no support from the local population who don't want them there and that includes the ethnic Russians, who also like the freedoms, denied in Russia like a free press, freedom of expression, the right to demonstrate, belong to free trade unions etc., etc.
Putin, like Stalin and Hitler is out to build an empire. Their economy is tanking and thats make him and his ambition to be president for life vulnerable. What he is doing is about Putin and his survival as a dictator, along with his 'yes man' inner circle, not anything else and this is what makes the situation in Eastern Europe so dangerous. If he gets away with this, Moldova and Belarus will be next, followed by the Baltic states, then the rest of Eastern Europe, unless NATO and the US intervene to stop him and I think we all know what that will mean. >:( >:( >:( >:(
Hitler was encouraged by appeasement and indifference and likewise Putin is relying on the same with his "Asymmetric Warfare and Plausible Deniability". This is a new form of 21st century warfare or the revival of an old one used in the 19th century?
Whether we like it or not we are all part of planet earth and pawns in the major powers "Great Game" (which was coined by the British as part of the British-Russian wars and vying for influence in Asia in the 19th century) that has been going on hundreds of years. Unfortunately, when a major power decides to rewrite, what the rest thought were agreed rules of conduct, treaties and International Law, using military might, it is very easy for many countries to get drawn in to protect their interests, which we have seen with WWI and WWII.
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Civilised nations play by the rules, hostile ones don't, that's why the German heavy cruisers in WW2 were a third larger than ours.
We only get drawn into conflicts if we allow ourselves to be.
First step would be to close the EUs eastern border. This would make a clearly defined line of acceptability, with well defined consequences. Our response if this line is crossed would be to batten down the hatches, because the shit will really hit the fan. A side effect of the Cold war is that the main European motorway network leads straight to Moscow. This clearly works both ways.
It's 1600 miles, by motorway, from Moscow to Calais, about 32 hours at 50mph, so depending on Belarus, expect to lose Poland before any defence is mounted :-\
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one important fact is; Russia have lots of investments,money and effort in Ukraine like factories, energy units, schools, universities, banks, govt buildings, roads, hospitals and many other things.. if you expect Russians and Putin to say bye bye to this much money , effort and history, I'm afraid you have to wait long :-\
Sevastopol. Access to the Mediterranean and the western seas. Russia will never let that go. Ever.
yep.. thats the most critical fact that Russians solved at the blink of an eye..
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one important fact is; Russia have lots of investments,money and effort in Ukraine like factories, energy units, schools, universities, banks, govt buildings, roads, hospitals and many other things.. if you expect Russians and Putin to say bye bye to this much money , effort and history, I'm afraid you have to wait long :-\
Sevastopol. Access to the Mediterranean and the western seas. Russia will never let that go, until their next political collapse.
There you go, I've fixed that for you. Long term, Russia will collapse again, where Putin's dictatorial style of government is unsustainable. Most regions provide money inflows to Moscow, where a teacher and a skilled worker will earn $2000 a month, where in the regions they only earn $200 or less. This is increasing resentment and tensions that will not go away without Moscow having less (which is not possible under Putin) and the regions having more. When Russia collapses again then the semi-Federated states, many of whom have ethnic majorities will become independent states, hence due to political mismanagement, Russia will get even smaller and insignificant. Crimea may become part of Chechnya or Ukraine again. Crimea is too weak economically to be an independent country without an external benefactor to the tune of $6bn a year.
Demographics are a challenge for all of Europe, but long term are especially challenging for Ethnic-Russians and some other ex-Soviet states. As things stand major population growth (but slowing down) is mainly happening in Africa, South America, Asia and the Middle East. Where Adults have about 40 hours of economic output from the ages of 20 to about 60, this matters in terms of long term economic strength, until Robots and AI machines are clever and cheap enough to take over doing the majority of work.
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Once again the Western powers are becoming, bit by bit, embroiled in other countries affairs that has little to do with them. This is a Russian problem involving the old states of the USSR.
In this instance though, leave the Ukraine problem alone as it is a whole mix involving Russians, Russian speaking Ukrainians who want to be with Russia, plus Ukrainians who want democracy but are as bad as the rest when considering what others want!
By this reckoning Lizzie, if it's OK for Russia to interfere because Ukraine is a former USSR state, then it would have been fine for Britain to go and kick some butt in Zimbabwe, to protect the English speaking ethnic Brits living there. Had we done that Britain would have been roundly condemned by the international community and rightly so. ::)
Russia should stay out of Ukraine as well as the West and let the Ukrainians sort out their own problems. I'm sure that the ethnic Russians in Ukraine are free to move to Russia if they want to live under Comrade Putin! :y
Firstly and I cannot emphasize this more strongly, Ukrainians are not Russians any more than the Irish are English.
thats an interesting generalisation.. at least they live in a seperate island (although not far) but there is no physical border for ukraine except the carrot expecting ukrainians claims ::) everyone knows why ukraine turned their back to Russia .. but their expectations are as empty as their stomach :(
Yes, the Irish are Celts like the Welsh and Scots, likewise Russians, Ukrainians are Slavs, but like the Irish and English they have different cultures.
They also like the Irish with Eire, their own nation, which they want to keep. If we decided to send a 5th column and irregular troops into Eire to put it back under British subjugation we would be, quite rightly, condemned internationally and could expect sanctions or worse.
lets be realistic who is going to do this ::)
The Irish are proud of their nation, their independence and their right to self-determination and likewise so are the Ukrainians. This is why the Ukrainian anti-western presidential candidates in the May election only got 8% of the vote between them.
can you guarantee that this voting result was without any intervention..
All regions voted with a majority for the current President where they are united against a common enemy Russia. The Russian terrorists in East Ukraine have been bitterly complaining they have received virtually no support from the local population who don't want them there and that includes the ethnic Russians, who also like the freedoms, denied in Russia like a free press, freedom of expression, the right to demonstrate, belong to free trade unions etc., etc.
never in my life I have seen a free press on this planet
Putin, like Stalin and Hitler is out to build an empire. Their economy is tanking
thats a highly debatable subject..
and thats make him and his ambition to be president for life vulnerable. What he is doing is about Putin and his survival as a dictator,
using dictator word for the Putin is not correct.. if he was, Ukraine would be invaded long time ago and no opponents would be left alive..
along with his 'yes man' inner circle, not anything else and this is what makes the situation in Eastern Europe so dangerous. If he gets away with this, Moldova
stop there.. Moldova is so poor that even any african country wouldnt accept to join with them ;D
and Belarus will be next, followed by the Baltic states, then the rest of Eastern Europe, unless NATO and the US intervene to stop him and I think we all know what that will mean. >:( >:( >:( >:(
Hitler was encouraged by appeasement and indifference and likewise Putin is relying on the same with his "Asymmetric Warfare and Plausible Deniability". This is a new form of 21st century warfare or the revival of an old one used in the 19th century?
Whether we like it or not we are all part of planet earth and pawns in the major powers "Great Game" (which was coined by the British as part of the British-Russian wars and vying for influence in Asia in the 19th century) that has been going on hundreds of years. Unfortunately, when a major power decides to rewrite, what the rest thought were agreed rules of conduct, treaties and International Law, using military might, it is very easy for many countries to get drawn in to protect their interests, which we have seen with WWI and WWII.
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one important fact is; Russia have lots of investments,money and effort in Ukraine like factories, energy units, schools, universities, banks, govt buildings, roads, hospitals and many other things.. if you expect Russians and Putin to say bye bye to this much money , effort and history, I'm afraid you have to wait long :-\
Sevastopol. Access to the Mediterranean and the western seas. Russia will never let that go, until their next political collapse.
There you go, I've fixed that for you. Long term, Russia will collapse again, where Putin's dictatorial style of government is unsustainable. Most regions provide money inflows to Moscow, where a teacher and a skilled worker will earn $2000 a month, where in the regions they only earn $200 or less. This is increasing resentment and tensions that will not go away without Moscow having less (which is not possible under Putin) and the regions having more. When Russia collapses again then the semi-Federated states, many of whom have ethnic majorities will become independent states, hence due to political mismanagement, Russia will get even smaller and insignificant. Crimea may become part of Chechnya or Ukraine again. Crimea is too weak economically to be an independent country without an external benefactor to the tune of $6bn a year.
Demographics are a challenge for all of Europe, but long term are especially challenging for Ethnic-Russians and some other ex-Soviet states. As things stand major population growth (but slowing down) is mainly happening in Africa, South America, Asia and the Middle East. Where Adults have about 40 hours of economic output from the ages of 20 to about 60, this matters in terms of long term economic strength, until Robots and AI machines are clever and cheap enough to take over doing the majority of work.
will you bet on that prediction ::)
many ottoman sultans spend their life waiting for that and than west politicans .. and I'm afraid they are still very strong ;D
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one important fact is; Russia have lots of investments,money and effort in Ukraine like factories, energy units, schools, universities, banks, govt buildings, roads, hospitals and many other things.. if you expect Russians and Putin to say bye bye to this much money , effort and history, I'm afraid you have to wait long :-\
Sevastopol. Access to the Mediterranean and the western seas. Russia will never let that go. Ever.
yep.. thats the most critical fact that Russians solved at the blink of an eye..
Russia likes to play being the friend but then takes advantage of any situation that comes along, like the political turmoil in Kiev. A bit like a so called friend stealing your wallet while you are unconscious after a road accident. >:( >:( >:( >:(
But in this case they didn't find any cash just an IOU for $6bn to pay every year. ;D ;D ;D ;D
It is the same with industry in East Ukraine, their only market is Russia, where they are still churning out Soviet era quality of goods that have no market in any Western country, they will have been better off letting the west having to pay the subsidies, rather than Russia, who will also be facing a hostile majority of the population, who they will have to buy off or fight off.
As Professor Mark Galeotti an expert on modern Russian has said is that Russia had an agreement for the base in Crimea until 2042 at very little cost per year. With Yanukovych he had a president who practically had 'Kremin' tattooed on his forehead, but because he was so determined to stop him signing the EU free trade agreement, he has now lost him. What Putin is doing makes no logical sense, his emotion over EU agreement has got the better of him. In return for his invasion of Crimea he is gaining nothing that he didn't already have. ;D ;D ;D ;D
With sanctions and other restrictions with Western countries, who will now only deal with him because they have to, not because they want to, he will have gained popularity at home for a bit, but at a much bigger long term cost.
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one important fact is; Russia have lots of investments,money and effort in Ukraine like factories, energy units, schools, universities, banks, govt buildings, roads, hospitals and many other things.. if you expect Russians and Putin to say bye bye to this much money , effort and history, I'm afraid you have to wait long :-\
Sevastopol. Access to the Mediterranean and the western seas. Russia will never let that go. Ever.
yep.. thats the most critical fact that Russians solved at the blink of an eye..
Russia likes to play being the friend but then takes advantage of any situation that comes along, like the political turmoil in Kiev. A bit like a so called friend stealing your wallet while you are unconscious after a road accident. >:( >:( >:( >:(
But in this case they didn't find any cash just an IOU for $6bn to pay every year. ;D ;D ;D ;D
It is the same with industry in East Ukraine, their only market is Russia, where they are still churning out Soviet era quality of goods that have no market in any Western country, they will have been better off letting the west having to pay the subsidies, rather than Russia, who will also be facing a hostile majority of the population, who they will have to buy off or fight off.
As Professor Mark Galeotti an expert on modern Russian has said is that Russia had an agreement for the base in Crimea until 2042 at very little cost per year. With Yanukovych he had a president who practically had 'Kremin' tattooed on his forehead, but because he was so determined to stop him signing the EU free trade agreement, he has now lost him. What Putin is doing makes no logical sense, his emotion over EU agreement has got the better of him. In return for his invasion of Crimea he is gaining nothing that he didn't already have. ;D ;D ;D ;D
With sanctions and other restrictions with Western countries, who will now only deal with him because they have to, not because they want to, he will have gained popularity at home for a bit, but at a much bigger long term cost.
So lets be clear, Putin already has/had guaranteed access to Crimea, His country buys everything Ukraine produces in exchange for energy, and with that in mind he is mindful of the leadership of Ukraine.
So all the speculation is over what might happen if a situation arises where Putin invades a country he already owns and has free access to?
Another non story perhaps, afterall, there is still no news of an actual invasion :-\
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Strategically, he will not gain what he did not already have to a large degree, but he over stepped the mark with Yanukovych, over the EU free trade agreement, in by reports with a swear word ridden rant at him on a visit to the Kremlin. Yanukovych was deposed, so Russia at that point lost their inside track. Now if you think Ukraine is going to join the EU / NATO with no base renewal in 2042 then the invasion and annexation of Crimea makes strategic sense. Likewise, if you want to subjugate a people as they won't do what you want, then invasion is historically a popular option. But recent history with Afghanistan (twice) and Iraq have shown that invading and winning the peace are two quite different things.
Unfortunately, the civilian populations normally greatly suffer, as is currently happening in East Ukraine and Russians have a long record of brutal oppression with Chechnya the most recent example. :( :( :(
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If it's that inevitable, why resist :-\
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If it's that inevitable, why resist :-\
Costs on how far they go. :(
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one important fact is; Russia have lots of investments,money and effort in Ukraine like factories, energy units, schools, universities, banks, govt buildings, roads, hospitals and many other things.. if you expect Russians and Putin to say bye bye to this much money , effort and history, I'm afraid you have to wait long :-\
Sevastopol. Access to the Mediterranean and the western seas. Russia will never let that go. Ever.
yep.. thats the most critical fact that Russians solved at the blink of an eye..
Russia likes to play being the friend but then takes advantage of any situation that comes along, like the political turmoil in Kiev. A bit like a so called friend stealing your wallet while you are unconscious after a road accident. >:( >:( >:( >:(
But in this case they didn't find any cash just an IOU for $6bn to pay every year. ;D ;D ;D ;D
It is the same with industry in East Ukraine, their only market is Russia, where they are still churning out Soviet era quality of goods that have no market in any Western country, they will have been better off letting the west having to pay the subsidies, rather than Russia, who will also be facing a hostile majority of the population, who they will have to buy off or fight off.
As Professor Mark Galeotti an expert on modern Russian has said is that Russia had an agreement for the base in Crimea until 2042 at very little cost per year. With Yanukovych he had a president who practically had 'Kremin' tattooed on his forehead, but because he was so determined to stop him signing the EU free trade agreement, he has now lost him. What Putin is doing makes no logical sense, his emotion over EU agreement has got the better of him. In return for his invasion of Crimea he is gaining nothing that he didn't already have. ;D ;D ;D ;D
With sanctions and other restrictions with Western countries, who will now only deal with him because they have to, not because they want to, he will have gained popularity at home for a bit, but at a much bigger long term cost.
So lets be clear, Putin already has/had guaranteed access to Crimea, His country buys everything Ukraine produces in exchange for energy, and with that in mind he is mindful of the leadership of Ukraine.
So all the speculation is over what might happen if a situation arises where Putin invades a country he already owns and has free access to?
Another non story perhaps, afterall, there is still no news of an actual invasion :-\
Exactly, and no reason for losing any British, American, or other European lives, let alone risking WWIII.
Putin is no Hitler, lacking both the ability, let alone finance, to form and march an army across Europe against the diplomatic will, along with embargo "weapons", of Nato / The United Nations.
As I stated before, we should leave well alone. ;)
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Only way forward (HOUSE*) I see for Ukrain is, to either accept Russian leadership, or come to some agreement on Crimea/Sevastapol allowing them un challenged access.
They will take it anyway, it's just a case of damage limitation. Saving Ukrainian lives in the process.
From what I saw of coverage a few weeks ago, the Russians had little interest in anything else.
Its a bit like Ussr putting missiles in Chile. You have to accept that the USA will never allow that. Likewise....
Or even uk interest in Gibraltar.
(*apologies for the W#*$k word bingo entry)
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It's 1600 miles, by motorway, from Moscow to Calais, about 32 hours at 50mph, so depending on Belarus, expect to lose Poland before any defence is mounted :-\
What's the fare Drive? ??? ;D
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It's 1600 miles, by motorway, from Moscow to Calais, about 32 hours at 50mph, so depending on Belarus, expect to lose Poland before any defence is mounted :-\
What's the fare Drive? ??? ;D
Including the stupid question tax, about £4800 :P
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It's 1600 miles, by motorway, from Moscow to Calais, about 32 hours at 50mph, so depending on Belarus, expect to lose Poland before any defence is mounted :-\
What's the fare Drive? ??? ;D
Including the stupid question tax, about £4800 :P
I get back to you. ::) ;D
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It's 1600 miles, by motorway, from Moscow to Calais, about 32 hours at 50mph, so depending on Belarus, expect to lose Poland before any defence is mounted :-\
What's the fare Drive? ??? ;D
Including the stupid question tax, about £4800 :P
I get back to you. ::) ;D
Who provides the Kalashnikovs? ::) ::) ;D ;D
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It's 1600 miles, by motorway, from Moscow to Calais, about 32 hours at 50mph, so depending on Belarus, expect to lose Poland before any defence is mounted :-\
What's the fare Drive? ??? ;D
Including the stupid question tax, about £4800 :P
I get back to you. ::) ;D
Who provides the Kalashnikovs? ::) ::) ;D ;D
At that price Al and I want proper Russian AK's! None of your Chinese rubbish!! :y
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I'm sure we can find summat suitable in Belarus...
For that price you get the ful blue light treatment ;D
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I'm sure we can find summat suitable in Belarus...
For that price you get the ful blue light treatment ;D
Good idea! :y If we take the Merc we'll probably end up dead in a ditch somewhere..... :-\
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one important fact is; Russia have lots of investments,money and effort in Ukraine like factories, energy units, schools, universities, banks, govt buildings, roads, hospitals and many other things.. if you expect Russians and Putin to say bye bye to this much money , effort and history, I'm afraid you have to wait long :-\
Sevastopol. Access to the Mediterranean and the western seas. Russia will never let that go, until their next political collapse.
There you go, I've fixed that for you. Long term, Russia will collapse again, where Putin's dictatorial style of government is unsustainable. Most regions provide money inflows to Moscow, where a teacher and a skilled worker will earn $2000 a month, where in the regions they only earn $200 or less. This is increasing resentment and tensions that will not go away without Moscow having less (which is not possible under Putin) and the regions having more. When Russia collapses again then the semi-Federated states, many of whom have ethnic majorities will become independent states, hence due to political mismanagement, Russia will get even smaller and insignificant. Crimea may become part of Chechnya or Ukraine again. Crimea is too weak economically to be an independent country without an external benefactor to the tune of $6bn a year.
Demographics are a challenge for all of Europe, but long term are especially challenging for Ethnic-Russians and some other ex-Soviet states. As things stand major population growth (but slowing down) is mainly happening in Africa, South America, Asia and the Middle East. Where Adults have about 40 hours of economic output from the ages of 20 to about 60, this matters in terms of long term economic strength, until Robots and AI machines are clever and cheap enough to take over doing the majority of work.
will you bet on that prediction ::)
many ottoman sultans spend their life waiting for that and than west politicians .. and I'm afraid they are still very strong ;D
Have a read of the many articles on here if you think many leading scholars and ex-government officials aren't worried about the route Russia is taking.
http://www.interpretermag.com/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/)
The three economic global powerhouses by 2050 will be:
1. China
2. USA
3. India
Russia are currently 6 and will at best stay there as a minor regional power with a smaller GDP than Germany, unless they modernise and further industrialise their country, where they are currently going in the opposite direction with their equivalent of Silicon Valley a failure and no modernisation apart from limited amounts in their defense industries. If they successfully empire build (unlikely), they might grow a bit more, or if they continue on their current political route it may well be much worse. Demographics will mean a smaller working population which will also have to cover the costs of a bigger pensions bill. Demographics is going to be the elephant in the room for many countries over the next 20-100 years, where effective contraception means that we are not breeding enough to sustain our current populations let alone grow them.
Russian Oil will be declining rapidly by 2050 on current proven reserves and by 2050 we will be living in a largely post fossil fuel era, where their cost of extraction has gone up and the cost of alternative sources down. By 2050 the majority of our power will come from fission and fusion nuclear power stations as there will not be anywhere near enough fossil fuels left to cover global consumption.
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one important fact is; Russia have lots of investments,money and effort in Ukraine like factories, energy units, schools, universities, banks, govt buildings, roads, hospitals and many other things.. if you expect Russians and Putin to say bye bye to this much money , effort and history, I'm afraid you have to wait long :-\
Sevastopol. Access to the Mediterranean and the western seas. Russia will never let that go, until their next political collapse.
There you go, I've fixed that for you. Long term, Russia will collapse again, where Putin's dictatorial style of government is unsustainable. Most regions provide money inflows to Moscow, where a teacher and a skilled worker will earn $2000 a month, where in the regions they only earn $200 or less. This is increasing resentment and tensions that will not go away without Moscow having less (which is not possible under Putin) and the regions having more. When Russia collapses again then the semi-Federated states, many of whom have ethnic majorities will become independent states, hence due to political mismanagement, Russia will get even smaller and insignificant. Crimea may become part of Chechnya or Ukraine again. Crimea is too weak economically to be an independent country without an external benefactor to the tune of $6bn a year.
Demographics are a challenge for all of Europe, but long term are especially challenging for Ethnic-Russians and some other ex-Soviet states. As things stand major population growth (but slowing down) is mainly happening in Africa, South America, Asia and the Middle East. Where Adults have about 40 hours of economic output from the ages of 20 to about 60, this matters in terms of long term economic strength, until Robots and AI machines are clever and cheap enough to take over doing the majority of work.
will you bet on that prediction ::)
many ottoman sultans spend their life waiting for that and than west politicians .. and I'm afraid they are still very strong ;D
Have a read of the many articles on here if you think many leading scholars and ex-government officials aren't worried about the route Russia is taking.
http://www.interpretermag.com/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/)
The three economic global powerhouses by 2050 will be:
1. China
2. USA
3. India
Russia are currently 6 and will at best stay there as a minor regional power with a smaller GDP than Germany, unless they modernise and further industrialise their country, where they are currently going in the opposite direction with their equivalent of Silicon Valley a failure and no modernisation apart from limited amounts in their defense industries. If they successfully empire build (unlikely), they might grow a bit more, or if they continue on their current political route it may well be much worse. Demographics will mean a smaller working population which will also have to cover the costs of a bigger pensions bill. Demographics is going to be the elephant in the room for many countries over the next 20-100 years, where effective contraception means that we are not breeding enough to sustain our current populations let alone grow them.
Russian Oil will be declining rapidly by 2050 on current proven reserves and by 2050 we will be living in a largely post fossil fuel era, where their cost of extraction has gone up and the cost of alternative sources down. By 2050 the majority of our power will come from fission and fusion nuclear power stations as there will not be anywhere near enough fossil fuels left to cover global consumption.
expectations.. :)
remember whole west decided to get rid of Assad ,but when Russians said NO, all step back.. ;D
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What is happening has been consistently reported first by "The Interpreter Mag" which is why it is a news source used by many newspapers
http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-124-russia-on-full-combat-alert/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-124-russia-on-full-combat-alert/)
Russia has effectively taken over East Ukraine as the latest ceasefire and Russian armour continuing to pouring into East Ukraine confirms. This is a possible war of attrition that the Ukraine army cannot win as Russian has about 2,000 T64 tanks in storage, where they no longer in frontline service, which are what are pouring in there.
While the EU have stated that if the Russians don't reduce tensions in the East they will have to consider further sanctions. When Merkel said that Putin is on a different planet, I think she should have clarified who is actually on planet Earth. :(
The worry is there is nothing to stop them doing the same thing to any country where they have a border in Europe and a few ethnic Russians. The GRU (Russian military intelligence) send their operatives into the country, get the support of a few local Russians / Russian visitors, take over key positions and then provide reinforcements across the border as 'volunteers' that they say they have no control over. Provide as much weaponry, armour etc, stating that the volunteers have captured it, even if it is not in the opposing countries inventory as while the west argue over the semantics, they finish taking control. Once they are in control they call a rigged Plebiscite, who have of course vote to join Russia and they annex the area / province / country* accordingly.
*delete as appropriate
This is what NATO and our current politicians have got to get to grips with. Russia is relying on self interest like Germans selling them cars, London financial services being more important than actually doing anything meaningful. London is full of Russians so the UK's turn will eventually come.
The questions now are:
1. Will Russia take over the rest of the Ukraine?
2. Will the west supply the means to the 70%+ that are very anti-Russian, so they can like the make sure that like in Afghanistan that Russia loses the peace?
3. Moldova and Belarus are going to need to stop making overtures about EU / NATO membership or they will be next. Belarus across the their common border and Moldova through the Russian troops in Transnistria.
3. Right now the Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland need to get out their NATO insurance policy treaty and read the terms as they may be needing to make a claim sooner rather than later. :o :o :o
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3. Right now the Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland need to get out their NATO insurance policy treaty and read the terms as they may be needing to make a claim sooner rather than later. :o :o :o
There are currently Polish, Danish, UK and French air force components forward deployed in Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania.
There are currently Canadian air force components forward deployed in Romania/Bulgaria.
There are currently USAF components permenantly deployed in Poland.
A show of force exercise "Sabre Strike" involving B52's and B2's flying from UK bases has just finished.
A squadron of Stateside based USAF F-16 fighters was forward deployed to Estonia for the same excercise.
The neutral Swede's and Finn's have allowed NATO AWACS aircraft access to their airspace.
There are daily recce flights operated by US and UK spy planes operating along NATO's southern borders.
Now if I know all that, then the Russians know all that. Poland, Latvia, Estonia and Lithania are all now full EU and NATO members. There are sufficient forces in all these countries such that any attack on them would inevitably draw a full NATO response since the forces are already there.
NATO will undoubtedly be cautious about further eastwards expansion, but all these countries are already in, and Moscow knows it. All they can do is make it expensive to police the borders by flying recce flights down the international airspace boundaries like they used to in the cold war. However, ultimatley the west has more money than Russia, so if they try to stress our defence budgets, I would expect us (the west) to retaliate by further stressing their economy.
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3. Right now the Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland need to get out their NATO insurance policy treaty and read the terms as they may be needing to make a claim sooner rather than later. :o :o :o
There are currently Polish, Danish, UK and French air force components forward deployed in Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania.
There are currently Canadian air force components forward deployed in Romania/Bulgaria.
There are currently USAF components permenantly deployed in Poland.
A show of force exercise "Sabre Strike" involving B52's and B2's flying from UK bases has just finished.
A squadron of Stateside based USAF F-16 fighters was forward deployed to Estonia for the same excercise.
The neutral Swede's and Finn's have allowed NATO AWACS aircraft access to their airspace.
There are daily recce flights operated by US and UK spy planes operating along NATO's southern borders.
Now if I know all that, then the Russians know all that. Poland, Latvia, Estonia and Lithania are all now full EU and NATO members. There are sufficient forces in all these countries such that any attack on them would inevitably draw a full NATO response since the forces are already there.
NATO will undoubtedly be cautious about further eastwards expansion, but all these countries are already in, and Moscow knows it. All they can do is make it expensive to police the borders by flying recce flights down the international airspace boundaries like they used to in the cold war. However, ultimatley the west has more money than Russia, so if they try to stress our defence budgets, I would expect us (the west) to retaliate by further stressing their economy.
Exactly right! :y :y :y :y
That is why I say that any comparison with Hitler, Stalin, and the rest is just not relevant. This is a different age. The elements that kept the Cold War "cold" and has maintained the relative peace in Europe since WW2 are still there. The USSR collapsed, and although various treaties have reduced the amount of strategic weapons that the West, and Russia, has there are still adequate quantities of quality weapons to make any attempt by Russia to expand their borders West towards the rest of Europe a lost cause for them before they start. Russia's own forces are a shadow of their Cold War size, coupled with the fact they have not the financial clout to expand them, they have no ability to engage in a reverse "Barbarossa" action. This is not the 1940s. The West, NATO, and the United Nations, in 2014 would not stand back and let that happen.
Keep our powder dry and use diplomacy to keep Putin, who I repeat is no Hitler nor Stalin, under control. :y
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Imo, Ukraine and advancing the russian borders to west is completely different subjects .. I can bet Putin has no interest or intention to start another war for getting more lands which he already has plenty .. however, Ukraine is different as it can block their way to black sea and it has a high strategical and economical importance to them..
however, as time and wars prooved united nations is just an empty cake which has practically no power.. and totally useless in my opinion..
as for nato, just count USA and UK which can stand against Russia .. simply omit the others as history prooved.. but however, I dont think their politicians will be willing to war with Russia if they decide to take their older cities back.. :-\
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Imo, Ukraine and advancing the russian borders to west is completely different subjects .. I can bet Putin has no interest or intention to start another war for getting more lands which he already has plenty .. however, Ukraine is different as it can block their way to black sea and it has a high strategical and economical importance to them..
however, as time and wars prooved united nations is just an empty cake which has practically no power.. and totally useless in my opinion..
as for nato, just count USA and UK which can stand against Russia .. simply omit the others as history prooved.. but however, I dont think their politicians will be willing to war with Russia if they decide to take their older cities back.. :-\
It should be Cem, but it is clear that some think this is the start of Putin's plans of World domination! ::) ::) :D :D :y