Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: chrisgixer on 06 August 2014, 09:18:45
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Can't get the engine high enough to give the correct rack position. :'(
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A v8 project. That's sounds great any pics?
can you not use different mounts? Or alter subframe mount by chopping and extending?
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Anything is achievable Chris.
Have a look at "project binky" on youtube, the guys at bad obsession motorsport have fitted a toyota gt4 engine and 4x4 running gear in a mini!
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Can the rack not go lower 'into' the subframe
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I need a u shaped steering rack effectively. []----\______/----[]
There are some pictures of modified racks on google images, where the rack body is lowered from the desired position, then end plates added to the rack and the tie rods added to those, to get the correct tie rod pivot point.
But I suspect that will cause flex in the rack shaft and cause it to bind. Plus there's the problem of the rack shaft possibly rotating in the body and binding on the pinion gear.
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Could you move engine forward and up? And lower steering box and idler mount lower?
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Can the rack not go lower 'into' the subframe
Subframe is clear. For and aft, the rack sits nicely where the centre drag link is on an oe car. The centre drag Link has a u shape vertically to clear the v6 lump/gear box join.
Even if modifying the v8 sump, its touch and go, and it would mean removing some of the sump webbing that strengthens the engine to gear box join.
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The rack needs to sit 50mm higher than the centre line of the centre drag link.
It looks like the Pictures of the rats omega steering rack show an incorrect position.
Pictures could be clearer though.
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en?sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A//www.rats.no/omega_tg.html
Or, a rack fitted 40mm lower than the wishbone pivot point does actually work. :-\
Note; I'm using an ls1, not a lexus lump.
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Could you not cut the centre tie bar at the angled section and extend lower?
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(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/A2CFC4E3-8FA4-401C-9563-6A9971B6AA4A_zpsacser2nl.png)
They have extended the tie rods of the Almera rack I'm using, but the position looks too low, compared to the wishbones, and hence the wishbone pivot point.
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In the old Astra the steering rack was above the gearbox is that not possible or am i talking crap again
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There are ways of modifying the steering rack and ensuring sufficient torsional strength. Mark will certinly know much better than I but the shpe you suggested is very much in the realms of the possible. Just needs some custom welding and manufacturing :y
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Here's the sort of solution I mean. You can see the end plates on the rack by the oil filter. Pointing rearward though, where as I would need them to,point up vertically.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/C8CA454E-52D0-47D4-87ED-DA5DE8E9600E_zps23cgvszg.jpg)
The sliding bar to the rear, I presume, is to stop the rack shaft twisting/rotating in the body.
Pick taken from here. I haven't read it yet, just plundered the pic.
http://www.build-threads.com/build-threads/speedhunters-one-year-on/
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Btw that's a front mounted rack, omega needs to be rear mounted, but you get the idea...?
Question is, would it work without binding etc?
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I think you might find a compromise (inducing some bump steer) the easiest way around it, assuming you're happy with a compromise (which you kinda are by definition on the Omega seeing as it has mac strut suspension)..
This is a good read: http://www.modified.com/tech/0508_sccp_making_it_stick_part_3/suspension_geometry.html?__federated=1
In order for a MacPherson strut suspension to have no bump steer, the tie rods must lie in line with the lower contol arm with the inner tie rod end in plane with the inner pivot of the control arm (see illustration on this page).
However, most production cars have the steering rack placement compromised by packaging constraints so steering tie rod location is often less than optimal. Lower the car and the problem gets worse.
Are you in a position (everything mounted up) to measure the real world bump steer to know how bad it actually is?
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I have removed the spring from the strut and re fitted it all with the rack connected, but not mounted.
Then with a pry bar under the wishbone, in the wishbone hole, levered the suspension up to full compression.
With the rack in the current position, the rack is pulled over by about an inch. :o
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OK, yep, that sounds like it would be rather excessive bump steer!
What does the stock LS oil pan look like? I know you mentioned it would remove webbing but I can't quite picture that in my head (or by Google image search as there are so many aftermarket pans out there it's hard to know what was original!)..
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Lump is from a Holden vt r8 club sport.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/045D6E58-8C24-48AF-936A-8A35906693F8_zpscbaor4c4.jpg)
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Gotcha.. If you're open to spending money to fix it, then, it looks like there are significantly shallower front-sump pans available out there..
Some are essentially flat with only a 7" front sump, rather than the Holden's 10" front sump and angled rear: http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f213/ls-engine-oil-pans-all-of-them-324366/
Assuming it's the webbed part that's in the way of course, and going from ~4" depth to ~2" depth gives you the clearance you need..
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Did wonder about removing the sump, see what actually in there.
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At that end you'll probably find not a lot, just whatever clearance the big ends need..
The oil pump is front mounted so there'll be a short pickup pipe down into the main sump and the rest of it is really only there to drain the oil back down again.
Bit like this:
(http://www.sfldrifters.com/gallery/files/7/0/7/pickup.JPG)
That's why there's pans like this:
(https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/getimage.php?id=13-274)
(OK so the Canton pan requires a remote oil filter mounting, but you get the idea)
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You could space the subframe down 20mm and space the engine up 20mm. This might also help with the exhaust...
Bonnet clearance is easily rectified.
Also don't worry too much about the sump to gearbox bolts... The earlier 4L.. transmission doesn't bolt to the sump at all, so is only held on by six bolts to the block and the bottom of the torque converter and drive plate is covered by a crescent of sheet steel :y
But, as covered by the project books, the sumps are readily available to suit any application :y
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The problem is the transmission tunnel. There's still room to lift the engine before the bonnet is in the way.... Just.
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The problem is the transmission tunnel. There's still room to lift the engine before the bonnet is in the way.... Just.
Ok, so notch the casting fins and drop the subframe slightly... if you drop the subframe by an amount, and space the engine up by the same amount, then the engine/gearbox position relative to the body won't change :y
If you can gain 40mm by notching those fins, then you only need to space 10mm to get your 50mm clearance...
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The problem is the transmission tunnel. There's still room to lift the engine before the bonnet is in the way.... Just.
Ok, so notch the casting fins and drop the subframe slightly... if you drop the subframe by an amount, and space the engine up by the same amount, then the engine/gearbox position relative to the body won't change :y
If you can gain 40mm by notching those fins, then you only need to space 10mm to get your 50mm clearance...
Sadly it's not just the fins. And lowering the subframe will alter the wishbone angle and roll centre. Although I had considered that. It will give more chance of a squat purely through lateral g. the potential for which is much improved of late.
As it is now, the rack is on the flat of the sump. A modified sump will help, but measurements suggest not enough. Remember this is a handling project as well. Not just get the lump in any old how project. If it was I'd revert to a box (spit)
Further. If a "cranked" rack could be made to work, it would be of use on the v6 as well. There certainly there is no way a stock rack will work with a v engine.
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How did the LS1 5.7 that was almost fitted from factory, slot in? Do we know? :-\
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How did the LS1 5.7 that was almost fitted from factory, slot in? Do we know? :-\
With a steering box and massively compromised headers. IMO.
We have established the ls1 will fit with an auto, manual t56 probably requires a modded tunnel.
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I'm also befuddled by the fact the car the lump came out of had a rack too. Hence the shape of the sump.
Holden vt r8 club sport. (Not a commadore/monaro)
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To answer your last first ::) Commodore has a totally different subframe design :y any mileage in adapting the Commodore subframe to fit :-\ (Ignoring the deficiencies of the Holden set up... options exist for dealing with them anyway)
Any geometry variation caused by the flattening of the wishbones could be adjusted out at the strut, possibly with longer bumpstops to prevent the shocks from bottoming out...
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I would say you could lose most of the rear of the sump without any adverse effects as long as the rack doesn't want to traverse any moving parts in there.
Yes, there's a little bracing of the bellhousing, but the top half of the bellhousing is bolted straight to the block so it's no going anywhere.
A good section of the lower bellhousing on my roller skate has been ground off because speed bumps would have done so otherwise.
The 502CI chevys at the gliding club winches (450+ BHP into an autobox and a shitload of torque) only have a bellhousing over the top half of the torque converter and nothing at all between sump and gearbox at the bottom.
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Failing that, 2 cranked track rods to shift the outer ball joints up to meet the steering knuckles.
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Failing that, 2 cranked track rods to shift the outer ball joints up to meet the steering knuckles.
I think the would be more suitable. And more useful to others here. Gains in accuracy, and weight saving are big. Although cranked tr's might be too much of a compromise. Hence the question.
Re this project, the engine can then be MUCH lower, and further back.
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Job done, then. Curry time. :y
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Job done, then. Curry time. :y
Bish, bash bosh ;D
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Job done, then. Curry time. :y
Bish, bash bosh ;D
Easy, what was I worried about? ;D
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The only slight issue being how to make the track rods adjustable :-\
Perhaps crank the threaded part of the Omega outer bj down, and the thread of the track rod up and use the Omega adjusters to join them together and keep it all in order :-\
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What room do you have at the front of the motor, reason i ask is we did a C.S.B in a Manta A Series and ran the exhaust headers foward and down instead of back and down, TVR do the same i believe .
If thsi was possible then all the above will go away as you can keep the steering box, just an idea
Cheers
Andy
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What room do you have at the front of the motor, reason i ask is we did a C.S.B in a Manta A Series and ran the exhaust headers foward and down instead of back and down, TVR do the same i believe .
If thsi was possible then all the above will go away as you can keep the steering box, just an idea
Cheers
Andy
Yes one to consider. Will see how the land lies once the rack is/if it ever gets sorted.
That idea also lends itself nicely to to turbo applications I believe :-X
However, the steering box header interface is such that the header exits directly into the side of the steering box. This is worse on a right hand drive as the step of the cylinders means that pot exits right into the side of the box. Almost touching the top of the cylinder head, with only the angle of the v on the exhaust side of the head for exit. If that makes sense.
I realise thats most likely to be a simpler solution to fix short term, as most manufacturers don't hesitate to install such things by all accounts. However I feel there is an oppertunity to bin the box altogether. I think :-\ ;D and if things go to plan, the header compromise will be unacceptable later on.
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So. Any thoughts on this rack idea. Any flex likely...?
Not a common modification I guess but if you don't ask.... :-\
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How did the LS1 5.7 that was almost fitted from factory, slot in? Do we know? :-\
I'm happy to nip over to the Opel museum in Rüsselsheim and have a nose under the V8 ones they have there if needs be.
As long as OOF funds the trip!
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How did the LS1 5.7 that was almost fitted from factory, slot in? Do we know? :-\
I'm happy to nip over to the Opel museum in Rüsselsheim and have a nose under the V8 ones they have there if needs be.
As long as OOF funds the trip!
In your dreams...... :D
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Did someone say curry? :P
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Did someone say curry? :P
Indeed they did :y Does anyone know of a good curry house in Russelheim :-\
That way we can go on a part fact finding mission at the same time...
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I was thinking closer to home as I am off for a couple of weeks and taking advantage of being in blighty for a change ::)
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Ah ok... gisasaminit...
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Oh go on, on a school night ::)
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Jobbed :y
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=125378.msg1598616#new
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Jobbed :y
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=125378.msg1598616#new
Yep seen it :y
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Chris. Just a thought but how about asking Opel for some help? You would have to ask the right dept. maybe the DTM outfit or New GM CEO Mary Barra visits Opel in Rüsselsheim (media dept) http://media.gm.com/media/ch/fr/opel/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/ch/fr/2014/opel/01-27-gm-ceo-mary-barra.html
You might just strike it lucky and get one of the engineers on the original project who would help and may even have the parts.
If I was that engineer, I would try and help you.
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Hi Varche. Sadly the opel v8 prototypes all had the original box. Its rack info I need really. And this is a first attempt on an omega afaik.
Here is the v8 header on the drivers side on a left hand drive car. Add to this that the v8 engine was not in the middle, and problem with the box becomes more clear. No parts where made for a right hand drive car anyway. Or at least lingefelter never saw any.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/12cba9f9.jpg)
Lingefelter are a state side tuning house specialising in the ls v8 lumps. They bought all the remaining opel v8 prototype parts from gm with the intention of selling a v8 conversion kit to catera owners with their engines. However they couldn't get the bhp out of the lump with these headers so the kit never happened. The parts where sold privately and non remain. No catera v8 builds came to light afaik. Except for Elvins ls1 build sourcing his own parts with hand made headers.
Here's some gm opel v8 pics. Note from the engine bay head on shots that the engine is of centre, away from the left hand drive steering box. As a result, very view of the useful original parts will fit a uk left hand drive car. Subframe mounts, headers especially, are all wrong.
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-catera-cimarron-forum/132669-sticky-v8-omega-photo-archive.html
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Here's one of the gm parts threads. Sadly most of the pic links are missing, but the subframe is all off centre the wring way for uk cars.
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-catera-cimarron-forum/117000-halleluja-catera-v8-project-underway.html
Brucee got in there though you notice. :y
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Also note they spent a good deal of time making sure the steering box was kept cool, both with additional cooling pipes and a vented under tray ducting air up from underneath. Not that those pics are visible. :( Plus's there's some debate as to weather the abs pump was a bit close to the exhaust as well. Iirc
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So, to sum up, for me there's too many compromises in the original v8 project that all revolve around the steering box. The omega body is two inches narrower than the Holdens as well. So any extra widths will help. And binning the box goes a long way to helping.
Even so, standard Holden headers will need narrowing to hug the engine more so as not to foul the omega frame rails. Without adding the extra grief of avoiding the steering box.
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My vote is for a modified/thinner sump, Chris.. I reckon yours is still deeper at the tail end than it needs to be to clear the windage tray and, as Kevin says, there's plenty of GM V8s out there with the lower bell housing not attached to the block in any way, and other cars.
Grab a front sump with extra shallow rear from somewhere like Topspeed in Addlestone and it'll probably solve all your problems in one easy step.
Well, ok, that one problem anyway.
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Yep, seconded. :y The webbing on the sump between it and gearbox will be there to strengthen the sump against grounding and possibly to stop it resonating. I can't see it adding anything meaningful to the gearbox<>engine interface, so if binning it avoids you having to compromise the steering setup, just do it.
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As the sump you have is no good for your application, it would be ideal for a mockup.
You can cut it about, and model its replacement with duct tape and cardboard. Which could then be used to compare with available aftermarket sumps. After all, you don't want to buy one and find it doesn't fit either.
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mmm modified sump it is methinks.
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Chris, although time consuming and not easy , get a tig welding machine and start practice imo.. so you can build a custom sump and a custom manifold as you wish..
or ask for a shop.. 304 steel will be mostly enough for the jobs..
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Dry Sump Conversion?
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Modify the sump (its only alloy and easy enough to get welded up)
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Modify the sump (its only alloy and easy enough to get welded up)
Well documented in the conversion manuals :y
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Modify the sump (its only alloy and easy enough to get welded up)
Well documented in the conversion manuals :y
That would, most likely, get the rack in, but the engine/box will still be rubbing on the transmission tunnel.
It "may" be a case of mixing the sump AND Cranked tre's.
It's still thoughts on the cranked tre's I'm after gentlemen. :)
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Maybe I'm not imagining this right (draw me a picture on the 14th ;)) but isn't the problem that the inboard pivot on the rack is too low and not in line with the pivot point of the wishbone .. in which case a cranked TRE will alter the angle of the rack end (to level) but won't change the pivot point and you'd still drag on a load of bump steer as the suspension travels through it's arc, no?
What you have now is:
(http://i57.tinypic.com/20s5xu.jpg)
What you are describing is:
(http://i58.tinypic.com/n1qhl5.jpg)
But isn't what you want really this (with the pivot point of the rack end and wishbone coinciding):
(http://i60.tinypic.com/r0ypat.jpg)
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Modify the sump (its only alloy and easy enough to get welded up)
Well documented in the conversion manuals :y
That would, most likely, get the rack in, but the engine/box will still be rubbing on the transmission tunnel.
It "may" be a case of mixing the sump AND Cranked tre's.
It's still thoughts on the cranked tre's I'm after gentlemen. :)
Chris, you are trying to build a non standard V8 car out of factory so expectings things to to be plug and play has no chance.. forget about the cars original design..
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If it's close enough that you can make it work without bending the TREs using a shallow sump and relieving the transmission tunnel a bit, I think that's what I'd do, TBH.
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If it's close enough that you can make it work without bending the TREs using a shallow sump and relieving the transmission tunnel a bit, I think that's what I'd do, TBH.
Porta power, some heat, some stout wood, no not that ::), and a suitably sized gentle persuasion device should see it all together nicely...
Alternative for the tunnel is to open it up and rebuild it, but iirc, you don't want to go down that road :-\
Anyways, what's a bit of bump steer between friends :y
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Stoud Wood? Isn't that what Kev's homebrew gives you? ::) ;D
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Stoud Wood? Isn't that what Kev's homebrew gives you? ::) ;D
Not that one either ::)
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If it's close enough that you can make it work without bending the TREs using a shallow sump and relieving the transmission tunnel a bit, I think that's what I'd do, TBH.
Porta power, some heat, some stout wood, no not that ::), and a suitably sized gentle persuasion device should see it all together nicely...
Alternative for the tunnel is to open it up and rebuild it, but iirc, you don't want to go down that road :-\
Anyways, what's a bit of bump steer between friends :y
You don't want to persuade it, you want to tell it. Plasma cutter + welder. :y
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Stoud Wood? Isn't that what Kev's homebrew gives you? ::) ;D
Quite the opposite, normally. ;D
That reminds me. I've got a brew in the garage that's had 2 "bottle bombs". Must do something with it before any more collateral damage occurs. ::)
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Thee and wee know that, but when suggested, iirc Chris wasn't exactly keen on the idea :-\
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Stoud Wood? Isn't that what Kev's homebrew gives you? ::) ;D
Quite the opposite, normally. ;D
That reminds me. I've got a brew in the garage that's had 2 "bottle bombs". Must do something with it before any more collateral damage occurs. ::)
One of my jobs over leave is to bottle/keg the brews I have waiting in the kitchen. If I make it to Newent it will certainly be on tap :y
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If it's close enough that you can make it work without bending the TREs using a shallow sump and relieving the transmission tunnel a bit, I think that's what I'd do, TBH.
Yes ok I see where the description has gone off course. "Bending" no. But....nearly there.
So the inner ball joint HAS to be in the correct place, in line with the wishbone pivot, vertically on the centre line pivot. But that the rack body must be lower to miss the engine. (Ignoring modding the sump for a minute)
So, in order to connect the two components there would have to be a vertical connection added. Say, for argument sake, a one inch square solid metal steel bar 40(?)mm long with a hole drilled in each end. Fitted vertically. So the bottom hole bolts to the rack end, where the tre once was in its lower position, the top hole bolts to the tre inner ball joint end 40mm directly above.
By 40mm I mean whatever the distance has to be. Might be nearer 50mm.
But does that make sense? And, is it structurally string enough? Would the rack shaft bend in corners? Would it then binde up.
The pic in post 12 doesn't appear to make sense to anyone, but it shows what I mean. Except, that pic shows end plates. And they point rearward, rather than vertically as mine would, to allow the rack body to be forward of the engine, but allows the tre ball joints to be in the correct/other/wherever place, as needed.
It's the ball joint position that's key, the tre rods can be whatever shape they want to reach the wheel. Purely bending the rod, means little as Aaron is struggling with I think. By that description one could argue oe omega rods are cranked. But no that won't help in this application, well, it might if the rods four the wheel on full lock of course.
So by cranking tre's I mean, cranking the pivot points, not the rods themselves. Or even crank the rack.
Rod horizontal to ball joint->------o o-------- >hub(ditto opposite<)
40mm con rod -> | ^sump^ |
Bolt to end of rack shaft->o --------rack body------o
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Quoted for pic reference.
So if this was an omega, with a front mounted rack, your looking from under the self levelling pump/drivers front fog light area, at the front of the engine, see the aux pulleys etc. The extra steelwork/slider is added to prevent flex of the rack shaft. The round bar is purely a mounting bracket.
Here's the sort of solution I mean. You can see the end plates on the rack by the oil filter. Pointing rearward though, where as I would need them to,point up vertically.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/C8CA454E-52D0-47D4-87ED-DA5DE8E9600E_zps23cgvszg.jpg)
The sliding bar to the rear, I presume, is to stop the rack shaft twisting/rotating in the body.
Pick taken from here. I haven't read it yet, just plundered the pic.
http://www.build-threads.com/build-threads/speedhunters-one-year-on/
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Bear with me on this... is there any scope in modifying the subframe to fit the rack into it in a forward location?
Hub/knuckle assembly can be reversed, ie swapped left to right easily enough. Hell, if you're already into modified sump territory, then notch the sump to accommodate the rack in a forward position...
Wouldn't be the first car to have that done, the Sierra/Granada 4x4 ran the front axle through the sump on both four pot and v6 versions :y
This could also give a bit more scope for the steering shaft/exhaust area, by flattening the angle of the shaft slightly :-\
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Bear with me on this... is there any scope in modifying the subframe to fit the rack into it in a forward location?
Hub/knuckle assembly can be reversed, ie swapped left to right easily enough. Hell, if you're already into modified sump territory, then notch the sump to accommodate the rack in a forward position...
Wouldn't be the first car to have that done, the Sierra/Granada 4x4 ran the front axle through the sump on both four pot and v6 versions :y
This could also give a bit more scope for the steering shaft/exhaust area, by flattening the angle of the shaft slightly :-\
No. EVERYTHING is in the way. A front racks benefits over a rear don't justify the work involved.
Now, the question at hand...? :)
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That being, will the rack shaft bend?
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That being, will the rack shaft bend?
Possibly a greater chance of breaking summat if you catch a curb or pothole :-\ It really depends how well made the rack is, but would it stand up to your Range Rover incident? I doubt it...
Do I need to bring Lego on Wednesday, so that you might try different approaches? Probably have enough bits to knock up an Omega chassis...
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That being, will the rack shaft bend?
Possibly a greater chance of breaking summat if you catch a curb or pothole :-\ It really depends how well made the rack is, but would it stand up to your Range Rover incident? I doubt it...
Do I need to bring Lego on Wednesday, so that you might try different approaches? Probably have enough bits to knock up an Omega chassis...
Rack body will still be above the subframe beam. But yes it might be close.
Nothing would stand up to the rr incident. Although, and here's the key, if the vertical con rod was say, a plate, or of the correct thickness to bend in an axle end on accident, but to avoid bending or flexing during cornering, then simply replacing the plate would be easy. Along with the wishbone of course ::)
A lot depends on the number of machinings and fixings in the end of the rack shaft. Like pinning etc. May allow it to split.
Re Lego? No ;D but there really are very few options left.
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I'm not familiar with rack innards, where are the seals, and what allows the shaft to move in the body? Bushings? Bearings?
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Power cylinder end seals might be stressed?
http://www.aa1car.com/library/steering_rack_inner_sockets.htm
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Was thinking lego might be an aid to visualising what might happen under load rather than a solution ;D
If you have a spare rack? Then pull it apart and see what's what inside :-\
Using too thick a plate might not be a good idea, because if it doesn't flex, then all the stresses/shocks will be on the rack itself :-\
Also, what's to prevent the rack itself from rotating horizontally in the tube as the suspension moves? You might end up destroying the rack in pretty short order, where as keeping the line of the track rod more natural from the rack to the hub should limit this effect...
I doubt you have the space for the belts and braces approach in your link. Could also fit the track rods so they drop into the hubs, using a crank on the outer end to facilitate this.
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Power cylinder end seals might be stressed?
http://www.aa1car.com/library/steering_rack_inner_sockets.htm
A non power rack might reduce the effects of seal wear :-\
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Was thinking lego might be an aid to visualising what might happen under load rather than a solution ;D
If you have a spare rack? Then pull it apart and see what's what inside :-\
Using too thick a plate might not be a good idea, because if it doesn't flex, then all the stresses/shocks will be on the rack itself :-\
Also, what's to prevent the rack itself from rotating horizontally in the tube as the suspension moves? You might end up destroying the rack in pretty short order, where as keeping the line of the track rod more natural from the rack to the hub should limit this effect...
I doubt you have the space for the belts and braces approach in your link. Could also fit the track rods so they drop into the hubs, using a crank on the outer end to facilitate this.
Tre Ball joints need to line up with wishbone pivots though... Within any slight variances manufactures have with packaging restraints, I keep reading inner ball joints must be in the correct place.
Yet, there must be lateral movement to allow the rack to move when steering, so you might expect bump steer in turns. Doesn't really happen though, so there's variance available somewhere, certainly laterally. The rack body can be slightly off centre Afaict,...
....BUT, the ball joints MUST be the same heights the wishbone pivot. Is what i'm understanding from various sources.
I'm not familiar with the correct position for and aft though. :-\
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Power cylinder end seals might be stressed?
http://www.aa1car.com/library/steering_rack_inner_sockets.htm
A non power rack might reduce the effects of seal wear :-\
Ok so flex in the shaft is a concern. Does the example pic make sense with the added slider ? Its purpose is to limit Torsion and flex. I'd suggest it might need to be a bigger a diameter but, I can see why it's there. Good thinking IMO.
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(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/C8CA454E-52D0-47D4-87ED-DA5DE8E9600E_zps23cgvszg.jpg)
This pic. :)
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It does, very much so :y My concern is having the space for it :-\
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Then there's things like this. For steering box to rack conversions. I find the tre ball joint positions odd, but remove those and bin. Undo the nut on the end, add 40mm end plates or con rods, as described earlier, and bolt conventional tre's to those.
The red bit is a cradle that bolts in place of the original steering box and idler bracket holes in the body.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/55417998-AAF1-4585-B940-26E9F70F76A1_zps6mfjnqqq.jpg)
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Now you're getting somewhere :y
I did wonder about obtaining a left hand drive steering idler and bracket to fit in place of the box and clamp a fitting to the tie rod. This could then receive a rose joint connected to a hydraulic ram, tother end of which could be mounted to the subframe. (Not sure of the legality of this though as I believe there must be a mechanical connection between the wheels and the steering wheel, although the Citroen CX had such a system). A remote pump could then be fitted directly to the steering column, which neatly solves the packaging issue with the steering shaft/exhaust, and does away with the power steering gubbins too...
That said a short rack could just as easily attach to the tie rod... could be a nice compact solution, whilst maintaining the Omega geometry :y
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Now you're getting somewhere :y
I did wonder about obtaining a left hand drive steering idler and bracket to fit in place of the box and clamp a fitting to the tie rod. This could then receive a rose joint connected to a hydraulic ram, tother end of which could be mounted to the subframe. (Not sure of the legality of this though as I believe there must be a mechanical connection between the wheels and the steering wheel, although the Citroen CX had such a system). A remote pump could then be fitted directly to the steering column, which neatly solves the packaging issue with the steering shaft/exhaust, and does away with the power steering gubbins too...
That said a short rack could just as easily attach to the tie rod... could be a nice compact solution, whilst maintaining the Omega geometry :y
Actually, thinking further, the example in that pic would be much easier to weld 40mm risers onto the black bit and or attach the ball joints wherever the hell to want. No need to touch rack ends at all.
Although the added width(of the body and black bit with ball joints) might add a few niggles, but solves more than it causes all things considered. Might be able to add the black bit to the rack I have, and weld up a cradle.
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There's a further interference from the rack, in that the pinion gear housing is very close to the starter motor. I'm presuming that unequal length track rods , via the adjustors, will allow me to move the rack nearer the drivers wing, to give clearance, without any detrimental effects...?
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Might need to watch the effects on the steering lock, as anything coming up on the outside of the chassis rail might foul them, whereas a more direct line might not :-\
Not sure about uneven lengths though, might cause an issue with geometry :-\
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Now you're getting somewhere :y
I did wonder about obtaining a left hand drive steering idler and bracket to fit in place of the box and clamp a fitting to the tie rod. This could then receive a rose joint connected to a hydraulic ram, tother end of which could be mounted to the subframe. (Not sure of the legality of this though as I believe there must be a mechanical connection between the wheels and the steering wheel, although the Citroen CX had such a system). A remote pump could then be fitted directly to the steering column, which neatly solves the packaging issue with the steering shaft/exhaust, and does away with the power steering gubbins too...
That said a short rack could just as easily attach to the tie rod... could be a nice compact solution, whilst maintaining the Omega geometry :y
Actually, thinking further, the example in that pic would be much easier to weld 40mm risers onto the black bit and or attach the ball joints wherever the hell to want. No need to touch rack ends at all.
Although the added width(of the body and black bit with ball joints) might add a few niggles, but solves more than it causes all things considered. Might be able to add the black bit to the rack I have, and weld up a cradle.
Thinking further again, as Al said about keeping the original geometry, made me think, attach the black bit to the oe centre tie rod with a couple of u clamps....? :)
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Houston, we have a solution :y
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Rack could even attach to the tie rod where the idler/drop arm mount, only need a short rack then... Summat from a Pug 106 perhaps, barely a foot long iirc :-\
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Rack could even attach to the tie rod where the idler/drop arm mount, only need a short rack then... Summat from a Pug 106 perhaps, barely a foot long iirc :-\
This gives you an idea of the layout of one...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Citroen-Saxo-1-1-Steering-Rack-Peugeot-106-Non-PAS-rally-/141371943541?_trksid=p2054897.l5672
This shows a clearer pic of where the track rods attach to the rack... the flat bar with two holes.
Plenty of scope for attaching it to the tie bar :y
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And here is man in a tie to demonstrate this:
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll138/mrgaffney/20140813_201347_zpsd309a573.jpg)
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Oh dear, the picture is broken... never mind ;D
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Oh dear, the picture is broken... never mind ;D
Proxy dropbox >:(
Sorted now :y
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Bugger ;D
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Bugger ;D
Everyone believes a man wearing a tie :y
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True enough, look at Ton E Bliar ::)
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Will a pass pump for a box, work with a rack? Does it mater? Will there be more or less flow etc....?
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Racks and boxes both have pressure relief valves so should be fine... Incidentally the Pug rack I suggested has electric power steering, so pump can literally be anywhere. Might help with overall packaging...
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Had a look a a HSV Commodore at a local car show, any reason why a Commodore rack can be used?
Andy
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Had a look a a HSV Commodore at a local car show, any reason why a Commodore rack can be used?
Andy
None at all I suspect. But the problem I'm having though, is getting the engine in the right place to allow the use of any rack, much less a commadore one.
I think its the height of the transmission tunnel on the omega that's causing the problem. The tremac t56 manual is a huge lump on the commadore, compared to any of the omega gear boxes anyway, bigger than 4l60e auto I'm using, so getting the engine high enough and level is the issue, as the omega tunnel doesn't need to be as high.
I can probably get the lump high enough, but due to the height of the transmission tunnel the engine and box would be leaning back at a silly angle.
....I should probably check where the drive shaft lines up with the dif, but I don't have the desired dif in place yet. ...or am I using an omega dif for now? It's been so long since discussing that I can't remember. ;D
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Remember you don't want 0º angles on the prop UJs, so don't stick it all in perfectly level and in line (unless you don't want the prop to last very long, anyway) ;)
(You want complimentary angles of between 1º & 3º at each end)
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Yep, and no real reason why the engine must be dead level either.
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That conversion lump uses a rack that is not that dissimilar to an Astra F:
(http://i340.photobucket.com/albums/o345/1800turbogte/Astra%20GTE%204X4/P1020150.jpg)
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Do those two centre bolts signify the inner track rod mounting points Mark? If so that won't work as the crank will be in the way of those inner tr ball joints.
Those sort of mount points seem common on trucks from what I've seen...?
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Yes they do but, by then extending off these with bars which pass through a nylon bush on the outer arms of the subframe, you can then use cranked track rods to get back to the height of the current solution.
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Yes they do but, by then extending off these with bars which pass through a nylon bush on the outer arms of the subframe, you can then use cranked track rods to get back to the height of the current solution.
Ooh, I see. I like that idea. Will remember that for the inevitable Mk 2 3 4 5 etc
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More fiddlin' around with this today. Got the rack and travel bar loosely in position on stands. Lined up a track rod, held the tr in position ,as the holes aren't drilled yet, and levered the wishbone up and down fully. Perfect. :y (assuming zero bump steer is desired of course, it might have zero feel? :-\ )
The lower rack height also gives more room from the starter motor and clearance for the pas fluid tappings. :)
Checked the angle of the racks pinion shaft, could go one of two ways. A 90 degree junction box with the pinion pointing forward, or two uj's with the rack leaning back.
However, I noticed the racks full travel pulls the inner ball joint into the pinion body. Ffs. But looking at my car the lock to lock travel laterally, it looks to be about 60mm either side of centre to full lock. Much less than the full travel of the rack :) however it needed about 5mm more on left lock due to the bulk of material around the pas fluid tapping on the pinion body.
To get that clearance un bolted the pinion body, turned it through 180 degrees and bolted it back up. Does this make any odds re the internals?
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Might stress it differently under any given load :-\ struggling to visualise which bit you mean though :-[
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Had a look a a HSV Commodore at a local car show, any reason why a Commodore rack can be used?
Andy
None at all I suspect.
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The reason a V8 fits over the steering bits in a Commodore and more than likely not an Omega is the floor pan/ chassis or whatever you want to describe it as, is longer and wider in the Holden, this is why side skirts and bumpers are not a direct swap over fit
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The obvious option would be to use a Holden subframe/front suspension/steering gear... but they have almost nothing in common due to chassis differences, hence the requirement to compromise/adapt the Omega subframe :y
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The obvious option would be to use a Holden subframe/front suspension/steering gear... but they have almost nothing in common due to chassis differences, hence the requirement to compromise/adapt the Omega subframe :y
.. or take a plasma cutter to the transmission tunnel. ::)
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The obvious option would be to use a Holden subframe/front suspension/steering gear... but they have almost nothing in common due to chassis differences, hence the requirement to compromise/adapt the Omega subframe :y
.. or take a plasma cutter to the transmission tunnel. ::)
Can't possibly do that... ::)
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The obvious option would be to use a Holden subframe/front suspension/steering gear... but they have almost nothing in common due to chassis differences, hence the requirement to compromise/adapt the Omega subframe :y
.. or take a plasma cutter to the transmission tunnel. ::)
Can't possibly do that... ::)
Legally that would require putting the car in for an IVA test, as you've modified the monocoque. In practice, some careful shaping welding and grinding would ensure that nobody is any the wiser. Not that I'd recommend that, of course ;)
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Just keep it simple :y
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSkhHxmwPxxQdTfMin1Ok323XtJPF0qON92wXQkfvOGa0O5fPlITQ)
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The obvious option would be to use a Holden subframe/front suspension/steering gear... but they have almost nothing in common due to chassis differences, hence the requirement to compromise/adapt the Omega subframe :y
.. or take a plasma cutter to the transmission tunnel. ::)
Can't possibly do that... ::)
...because of... ?
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FIRE. ;D
As for the last question, I can't see it being a problem, but the pinion body casting is bolted on to the rack body casting with two bolts, and has a fairly large lump around the oil lines tappings.
These tappings are very close to the pivot point of the inner tre when on full lock. If I unbolt the pinion casting and turn it through 180 degrees and bolt it back up, so said tappings are facing in board and clear the inner tre ball joint, will this cause a problem with the pinion or its hydraulics...?
I could post a pic to make it simple but where's the fun in that? ;D
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Quite... ::)