Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Steve s reg omega on 07 August 2014, 23:01:35
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Hi all. I haven't used the Omega for a couple of months now as she stared to loose oil and water. A few people have looked and it appears one (or both) of the head gaskets have gone. She still starts and drives perfectly but I've been told is a horrible job to undertake :( so I may need to move the car on :'( Does any one have any suggestions?
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Doubt it TBH :y
How was the HG diagnosis achieved?
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Unusual (but not unknown) for 2.5V6 head gaskets to go ;)
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As said HG is unlikely on these engines and if so it is normally just coolant weeping down the sides of the block. The fact it is loosing oil too makes me suspect the oil cooler. less of a pig of a job. The hard part is the repeated flushing :y
What colour is the coolant?
I am around the corner from you and, luckily for you, on leave in the UK for a couple of weeks. :y
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Hi guys, a few mechanics had looked at the car and we got to the HG as the oil filler cap had the cream in it and the water dripping from the exhaust!! due to the previous heating issues it made a lot of sense.
Where round the corner :y
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Crap diagnosis so far!
Short runs or poor oil easily create Mayo under the filler cap. V6 are quite steamy anyway. Water out the exhaust is normal.
How much water is it loosing? Checked HBV (see guides)
Oil. How much? Checked plug wells?
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Hi guys, a few mechanics had looked at the car and we got to the HG as the oil filler cap had the cream in it and the water dripping from the exhaust!! due to the previous heating issues it made a lot of sense.
Where round the corner :y
If that wasn't something that would affect your wallet so drastically that would be amusing!
As Tunnie says, check for oil in the plug wells and for oil in your expansion tank.
Re coolant check HBV and get system pressure tested for leaks if you can't find one there.
:y
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Are the heads off already?!!! If so which 'mechanic' did the diagnosis?
I am literally 5mins drive away from Ash Vale, I cycle through it on my training rides :y
Drop me a PM and I will drop by this weekend or next week to have a look. I have done both the oil cooler and HGs on these engines and I know what to look for :y
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Are the heads off already?!!! If so which 'mechanic' did the diagnosis?
I am literally 5mins drive away from Ash Vale, I cycle through it on my training rides :y
Drop me a PM and I will drop by this weekend or next week to have a look. I have done both the oil cooler and HGs on these engines and I know what to look for :y
OOF rides again! :y
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Hi guys, a few mechanics had looked at the car and we got to the HG as the oil filler cap had the cream in it and the water dripping from the exhaust!! due to the previous heating issues it made a lot of sense.
Where round the corner :y
::) ::)
Ask the mechanics if all the breathers are clean and what oil has been used :)
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Hi guys, thanks for all the comments. I'm going to see if I can borrow a compression tester tomorrow and have a look at the water etc to see if it tells me some more
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Hi guys, thanks for all the comments. I'm going to see if I can borrow a compression tester tomorrow and have a look at the water etc to see if it tells me some more
If I were you I would take Mr Guffer up on his kind offer. :)
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Blocked breathers, leaking cam covers and knackered HBV! :)
As Doctor Opti says Guffer's your man! :y
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It'll be the Oil cooler ::) ::) :y et Guffer look at it :y :y
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Hi guys, thanks for all the comments. I'm going to see if I can borrow a compression tester tomorrow and have a look at the water etc to see if it tells me some more
If I were you I would take Mr Guffer up on his kind offer. :)
Indubitably! :y
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We all know the usual misdiagnosis of HG's on V6's but there is also a growing number of 1998 (S) reg V6's that have had HG failures as well. :'(
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PM'd Mr Guffer already, Just looked at the three plugs on the drivers side and the third (nearest the Fan) has oil in the plug well and the first has a small amount, the centre is dry. Re: the cam covers the gaskets were changed this year for similar problems and I'd already changed the HBV
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Are there signs of oil mixing with water (light brown milky fluid) in the header tank, or on the oil dipstick? If its losing fluids, they have to be going somewhere..
Does the car have smelly white smoke from the exhaust, even when fully warmed up? This will indicate coolant getting into the cylinders and burning off. Drips from the exhaust back box are condensation inside the exhaust, and certainly no indication of head gasket failure.
Also, the v6's are quite prone to getting a bit of sludge around the filler cap, its quite normal.
For clarification, did you overheat the car? If so, how bad/how long?
As others have said, the oil cooler is prime candidate for oil/water mixing.
IF you have blown the head gasket, then it is quite an involved, time consuming job, but not desperately complicated. The worst bit is getting the engine timed up properly when fitting the new belt.
Costs involved will be a new gasket set, a timing belt kit, skimming the heads, spark plugs, oil and filter, fresh coolant. Lets say that lot will be somewhere in the region of £400, plus there is the labour. I personally would allow a full day, possibly longer to do this job. A garage might quote you 6-8 hours maybe..
If the heads need skimming (which is a good possibility after an overheat), you may well have to take all the valves etc out.
Plus there is the danger of snapping exhaust bolts, and other unforeseen dilemmas.
If this all sounds a bit doom and gloom, well, it should. Omegas are not worth a great deal even in great condition and full running order.
There will be those who are the type that'll keep a car forever and fork out for the job.
Then there will be those who might choose to chuck another complete, good engine in there. That is, if the rest of the car is really good with no rot and sound drive train.
It pains me to say that the most practical course of action is to perhaps buy another sound car, and maybe swap around good bits from yours and sell on parts from the other to recoup the investment.
Having said all that and depressed the hell out of you, there is still a good chance it might be something relatively simple like the aforementioned oil cooler..
How attached are you to that particular car...?
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Hi Guys thanks for the good reading, I 've just removed the N/S 3 plugs and found enough oil in 4 & 5 as well (nearest fan and centre) 6 was dry. Done the compression test and starting from the O/S nearest Bulk Head and working anticlockwise 1-6 the reading are as follows: 1 - 230 (15) 2 - 200 (14) 3 - 200 (14) 4 - 240 (16) 5 - 245 (17) 6 - 195 (14)
A nice range of numbers and according to Haynes book of death this doesn't necessarily mean the head(s) but they need to come off for a de-coke any way?? any ideas? Also I had the car running for about half an hour last night with a clean piece of card underneath and the oil drips are showing from the back of the engine and N/S but I need to remove the sh*t shield to double check!!
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Forgot to mention it's never overheated and the last long drive was from Malvern to Portsmouth!
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Ok, that's a bit confusing as the cylinders are numbered differently... bank one (uk drivers side) is 1,3,5 from the front, bank 2 (uk passenger side) is 2,4,6 from the front :y
N/S are 2,4,6. So you have oil in the wells of 2 and 4. New cam cover gaskets needed, along with thorough breather clean. External oil leaks are almost certainly from the cam covers.
Compression ratios... actual cylinder numbers...
1. 200 (14)
2. 240 (16)
3. 200 (14)
4. 245 (17)
5. 230 (15)
6. 195 (14)
These don't actually tell you anything, as when the gaskets fail on these engines, the fire rings stay intact, so compression is unaffected. The gaskets fail at the water ways towards the back of the head, allowing coolant to escape out and down the block.
Any oil in the coolant? If so, the oil cooler is failing. Not a head gasket symptom on these engines...
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Hiya, I had the rocker cover gaskets changed this year and there doesn't seem to be any oil in the water. The dip stick looks clean and the only cream is in the filler cap!
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Hi Guys thanks for the good reading, I 've just removed the N/S 3 plugs and found enough oil in 4 & 5 as well (nearest fan and centre) 6 was dry. Done the compression test and starting from the O/S nearest Bulk Head and working anticlockwise 1-6 the reading are as follows: 1 - 230 (15) 2 - 200 (14) 3 - 200 (14) 4 - 240 (16) 5 - 245 (17) 6 - 195 (14)
A nice range of numbers and according to Haynes book of death this doesn't necessarily mean the head(s) but they need to come off for a de-coke any way?? any ideas? Also I had the car running for about half an hour last night with a clean piece of card underneath and the oil drips are showing from the back of the engine and N/S but I need to remove the sh*t shield to double check!!
WHY :-\ you really don't need to do that to modern engines. ::) :y
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That's just what the book said, need suggestions as the Haynes is only useful sometimes for procedures :) :)
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Hiya, I had the rocker cover gaskets changed this year and there doesn't seem to be any oil in the water. The dip stick looks clean and the only cream is in the filler cap!
If you found oil in the plug wells then the cam cover gaskets need doing again, and properly ::)
No oil in coolant is a good thing, any coolant loss from the back of the 246 head less so, as this is probably the head gasket.
Has Guffer seen it yet?
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Sorry not hijacking......... but Taxi, quick question....
If the HG fails behind the 246 bank would there be any other symptoms besides coolant loss? Just out of interest :)
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Sorry not hijacking......... but Taxi, quick question....
If the HG fails behind the 246 bank would there be any other symptoms besides coolant loss? Just out of interest :)
Probably not, hence the continual misconception when it comes to oil cooler failures being misdiagnosed as hg failure.
MarksDTM posted a pic a while back explaining this very point... that with the angle of the V, combined with the fact that water flows on the low side, and oil on the high side and could therefore never mix. The gasket almost always rotting out on the rear corner on the exhaust side, which is where the water escapes from the join between head and block.
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Sorry not hijacking......... but Taxi, quick question....
If the HG fails behind the 246 bank would there be any other symptoms besides coolant loss? Just out of interest :)
Probably not, hence the continual misconception when it comes to oil cooler failures being misdiagnosed as hg failure.
MarksDTM posted a pic a while back explaining this very point... that with the angle of the V, combined with the fact that water flows on the low side, and oil on the high side and could therefore never mix. The gasket almost always rotting out on the rear corner on the exhaust side, which is where the water escapes from the join between head and block.
So basically if the HG fails on a V6 Omega you wont get the standard coolant in the oil because of what you've just explained ?
Cheers mate :y
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Zactly :y
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Love the conversations going on. After the kids thing in the morning and if the weather lets me the inlet manifold's going to come off so I can look further. I've never done a V6 so this will be interesting :) As I'm not using it at the moment I've got the time :y
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Thing is mate, if it turns out to be the HG (which I really doubt from all that's been said) consider that there's a massive positive to take from it: you get to renew loads of seals 'n' gaskets.... exhaust fanny-mould's, cam seals, the HG's themselves, lifters, stat, re-seal or replace oil cooler, cam covers, timing belt kit, aux belt. Could also take the opportunity to upgrade to 3L camshafts.
:y
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Ps, Taxi...
I presume where the HGs fail isn't just the back of the 246 head and could happen to the back of the 135 head? if so how on earth would you check for this? I suppose you could get ya hand at the back of the 135 but impossible on the246 bank :-\
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If the hg had failed internally, there would be water in the oil and Mayo ON THE DIP STICK. Ignore mayo on the filler cap, that's purely a sign of short journeys and the engine not getting quite hot enough to warm the extended filler neck which sits in colder air. To disprove that symptom, remove the filler neck and fit the oil cap in its place. No more mayo. The neck is there purely to aid filling of the v6 engine on rear wheel drive applications.
If the hg has failed externally then the compression test would read normally.
You need to pressure test the cooling system to find the water leak, having tested the hbv with engine running with ac on hi and then on low, or vice versa, while getting a hand on it to feel for (hot) water.
Oil leak, likely cam cover gaskets. There is very little chance of oil leaking from the hg, with only one oil way on the high side of the v, so that would be evident from the pressure test if done with plenum and inlet manifold etc removed.
IMO, ignore the hg concerns, and concentrate on the individual symptoms of oil and water loss. Certainly get in touch with Guffer to get eyes on. :)
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How much oil /water loss are we talking?
Core plug on the 246 bank head is not unknown. Although 99 year hg's do seam to fail externally.
Search the site for oil and water leaks though. :y
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Sorry Chris, all this talk of HG is me hijacking :-[
I can be a stoopid bear sometimes..... pressure test to find the rear HG leak. Why didn't I think of that :'( :-[
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Ps, whilst pressure testing.... if i wanted to check the back of the heads whilst systems under pressure is viewing best with a torch from underneath? Can you even see the backs of the heads from underneath?
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Ps, whilst pressure testing.... if i wanted to check the back of the heads whilst systems under pressure is viewing best with a torch from underneath? Can you even see the backs of the heads from underneath?
Sort of. What you want for that is a mirror on a stick.
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Ps, whilst pressure testing.... if i wanted to check the back of the heads whilst systems under pressure is viewing best with a torch from underneath? Can you even see the backs of the heads from underneath?
Sort of. What you want for that is a mirror on a stick.
Cheers Nick :y
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PPS, sorry one last question... how long should it hold the 15psi (roughly) pressure for to know that there's defo no leaks?
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When I had head gasket go on my 3l it was on pot 6 and the fire ring had corroded so it was leaking. I suspect that cylinder 6 runs the hottest and is the most prone to go. As you the lowest compression on this cylinder on your test, so it maybe suspect. I also made a coolant pressure testing cap as per the maintenance guide, which showed the system would not hold pressure. I could also smell exhaust fumes being released via the coolant system with the expansion cap top off and on a hot day with a hot engine I was still getting steam which smelt slightly of anti-freeze.
Personally, I would double and triple check to be absolutely certain as it is not cheap parts wise to replace the head gaskets, if it proves unnecessary. I would not recommend running it for sometime like I did when I suspected the head gasket as I had slight pitting on the alloy head which meant I had to have the heads skimmed.
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Ok I had a bit of spare time this evening and popped over for a look.
Results were:
- coolant, clear.
- oil in plugwells present due to previous mechanic not cleaning the breathers and using pattern gaskets.
- recent change of hbv pipes due to them being the wrong way around. Noticed a little coolant drop on the very bottom hose clip. Tightened it up a little more but to keep an eye on in case of early hbv failure.
- engine runs smooth, no excess moisture at exhaust, no air bubbles of note in the coolant system and it heats up normally.
- no coolant leaks noticed underneath the engine bay.
Diagnosis:
Hbv pipe was slightly loose causing slow and gradual leak. Potentially some leakage by the oil cooler plate but this can be inspected when the rocker gaskets are replaced. Not convinced there is a leak there though as no evaporation noticed once the engine was hot.
In all a nice motor :y
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Good stuff :y
Gaskets and Hbv are easy fixes :y much better prognosis that head gasket failure...
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Yup, an easy fix and as usual just fixing the crap work of shoddy mechanics :y
Follow the guides Steve and you will be fine ;-)
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Ok I had a bit of spare time this evening and popped over for a look.
Results were:
- coolant, clear.
- oil in plugwells present due to previous mechanic not cleaning the breathers and using pattern gaskets.
- recent change of hbv pipes due to them being the wrong way around. Noticed a little coolant drop on the very bottom hose clip. Tightened it up a little more but to keep an eye on in case of early hbv failure.
- engine runs smooth, no excess moisture at exhaust, no air bubbles of note in the coolant system and it heats up normally.
- no coolant leaks noticed underneath the engine bay.
Diagnosis:
Hbv pipe was slightly loose causing slow and gradual leak. Potentially some leakage by the oil cooler plate but this can be inspected when the rocker gaskets are replaced. Not convinced there is a leak there though as no evaporation noticed once the engine was hot.
In all a nice motor :y
:y
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Ok I had a bit of spare time this evening and popped over for a look.
Results were:
- coolant, clear.
- oil in plugwells present due to previous mechanic not cleaning the breathers and using pattern gaskets.
- recent change of hbv pipes due to them being the wrong way around. Noticed a little coolant drop on the very bottom hose clip. Tightened it up a little more but to keep an eye on in case of early hbv failure.
- engine runs smooth, no excess moisture at exhaust, no air bubbles of note in the coolant system and it heats up normally.
- no coolant leaks noticed underneath the engine bay.
Diagnosis:
Hbv pipe was slightly loose causing slow and gradual leak. Potentially some leakage by the oil cooler plate but this can be inspected when the rocker gaskets are replaced. Not convinced there is a leak there though as no evaporation noticed once the engine was hot.
In all a nice motor :y
Well done. :)
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and too think they wanted to charge an enormous sum of money for head gasket change, threads like this remind me why I DIY.
Even though DIY is a real pain at times!
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Hi guys. Very sorry for the delay in my responses but I have enjoyed the reading. I have taken all the advice and been working on the repairs (Slowly) but today fired the Omega up for the first time. Had her running for about an hour and so far all seems very good. When I dismantled I removed the oil cooler and that seemed all good but the plate was quite corroded so a lot of cleaning was in order with new sealant, the oil cooler pipes were a bit if a pain but we got round that and I lost a washer from the water thing that joins the heads but I managed to find another one. MOT due soon so I'm going to going to get it in and were back on the road.
Many thanks to you all and especially Monsieur Guffer for coming over and it was great to meet you.
Looking forward to test drive tomorrow!
Steve