Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Diamond Black Geezer on 14 October 2014, 19:49:49
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RRight, back to first principles... Bringing the V6 back to life after years dormant. Dead battery (alleged good one, but actually dead) that's sortedb, borrowed the battery from the Turbo Weasel. But now...
Started instantly, but spluttered like hell, and refused to idle, as soon as the key is released, dies. Counteract this with the throttle, but for the five or so seconds I dared do this she sounded awful, shuddering (possibly because she was a rev or two from cutting out, possibly one or more cylinders not firing) and every second or two a regular 'cough' or 'hiccup' sound, which was metallic. Didn't sound healthy, so I dared not run her any further, in case there was something I had missed.
Further info which may help - the cam cover gaskets have been done, so everything in 'that area' has been disturbed (and in theory put back right, but obviously not guaranteed)
In your hands, as I'm a little hesitant to go firing her up againfor fear of boggering something up massively. :(
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Check ht leads are in right order 1st :y
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Got there first Martin ;D
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When was it last run :-\
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Fuel quality? - will not be good after that much time
HTH
Phil
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A pot or two not firing makes them run like a washing machine with a brick in it. I'd pull off the fuel filter and drain off as much stale fuel as possible then fit a new one, clean and lube the ICV, lifters will be empty and possibly stuck so will be very noisy. Best of luck :y
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Just let it tick over for 15minutes,and sort it self,
The oil will get nice n warm and help the lifters loosen up,and chuck a gallon or two of 99• in the tank.
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Firstly apologies for only replying now, I haven't been ignoring you, just had my head inside an engine bay! And thanks to all replies, too :)
Ok so...
1 4x4 - HT leads seem to be right, the lengths appear to say so, but will double-double check
2 Webby The Bear - Too slow ;)
3 SIR Philbutt - Fuel is definitely a possibility. The plan is to drain it off (58 litres of it - ouch!) and try fresh
4 omegod - will look up cleaning the ICV. Good thought, that. I always imagined them to be just 'sealed for life' they work or they don't
5 biggriffin - As I say, sadly the 'ticking over' thing is a little harder with no ability to idle properly.
So...
The 'cough' is definitely a misfire. Plugs and leads are old. All I can say is the 2 easy to get to cylinders are firing fine (thanks to one of them little thingys you plug between HT and spark that light up)
Runs beautiful over 1000rpm, with a bit of throttle.
Questions:
1 Can anyone tell me how tight the throttle cable wants to be? Mine seemed definitely slack, seemed odd, so I moved it 3-4 notches one-by-one. Not sure if something's moved with the MultiRam being off for doing the rocker covers?
2 How can I check for definite where HT leads should be? Must be a map on here/in Haynes I'm just not finding it :(
Thanks again!! Look forward to hearing from you :y
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Cleaned out the Idle Control Valve last night after reading above posts.
Will give it a quick turn over tonight, see if that cures the poor idle, before heading out for prior engagement. (rather spend all evening working on the car, ah well... :( )
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i would look at the egr, had the same problem years ago. wouldnt idle & popping back, but when over 1000 odd revs was ok.
:y
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Thanks Red Baron! in what way 'check out' the EGR? I know it was blocked off some time ago (blank probably long since burned through, now) if memory serves do you unplug the EGR, and then see if the engine runs ok - if it does, then you know you've a faulty EGR... or am I talking out of my exhaust? ;)
Also found the following diagrams via google
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90499.0
and
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90513.0
should anyone else come across this thread with similar issues.
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Thanks Red Baron! in what way 'check out' the EGR? I know it was blocked off some time ago (blank probably long since burned through, now) if memory serves do you unplug the EGR, and then see if the engine runs ok - if it does, then you know you've a faulty EGR... or am I talking out of my exhaust? ;)
Also found the following diagrams via google
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90499.0
and
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90513.0
should anyone else come across this thread with similar issues.
lol, depends what you blanked it off with. might be worth a check.
unplugging will only show a fault up. even blanked off it needs to be plugged in.
have you checked all the vac pipes?. maybe sucking air in somewhere.
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Vac pipes are on the list, and I'm sure what was used to blank it, but whether it be Aldi Cola can, or brown paper (or whatever my dad used) I'm sure it's long since turned to dust :D
There's twofold concern with the vac pipes -
1 any leaks which may be present
2 their location. No idea what went back where. Of course we tried to put everything back right, but you can never be 100% if its the first time you've done it.
Has anyone got a description of where the four breather pipes off the back of the top of the MultiRam should lead to? Cheers!
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Check those leads, very easy to get them wrong on the 2-4-6 bank as they don't connect to the coil pack in a 2-4-6 order!
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Right...is this right (robbed from another forum)
BULKHEAD
5...6
3...4
1...2
RADIATOR
5...3...1
DIS PACK
2...6...4
Only thing is... the DIS pack is from a Vectra ( >:( ) after someone didn't want to pay for an Omega one. As we know, Vec and Omegas have different plugs, so he spent about half a day splicing the wiring together. Car ran for about a year with this on, btw. Are the firing orders the same, the
5...3...1
DIS PACK
2...6...4
please?
Ta :y
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Check those leads, very easy to get them wrong on the 2-4-6 bank as they don't connect to the coil pack in a 2-4-6 order!
+1 :y
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Right. Progress is halted on the ICV for now as I appear to have lost it >:( >:( >:( >:( NO idea where I put it, finished cleaning it out last night and must have left it somewhere safe and very very clever to drain fully.
Also won't be getting anything done tonight as I'm out. But when I do get chance again, what is my best approach on the vac hoses? They all look fairly crusty and bodged over the years, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're leaking. So, without just assuming they're all duff, and buying a whole set of new pipes, what's the best route for looking for leaks?
Also I presume the all the vac pipes and hoses need to be pulled out the way to check the on the DIS pack? Nipped home in my dinnerhour (where I found I couldnt find the ICV) and I can just barely make out one lead on the DIS pack. That thing is impossible to see!!! :'(
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To check leads on dispac take off scuttle. if you need more access then remove plenum.
Re vac hoses make sure they're in the correct order by tracing them back from multirams using mark's excellent guide on ''V6 Vac Pipe Layout''.
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Thanks kindly. Excellent service, as ever!
Now... you can't find my ICV, can you? :D
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Thanks kindly. Excellent service, as ever!
Now... you can't find my ICV, can you? :D
;D
As i've been stalking you... it's in the bin by the washing machine ::) ;)
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HAHA!! You're not far off! Got a text off my sister a few mins ago, to ask if this old car part she found at home is ok to give to her hamster as a gnawing toy thing. :D
Apparently it was inside a wood climate control panel, in the hallway.
I am happy to add this adventure to the list of things I shall never live down ::)
Let this be a lesson to OOFers - don't store your ICVs inside a spare Climate Panel at 12.30 at night - they are prone to becoming lost!!
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Next step, just had a brainwave...
Would the incorrect crank sensor (of no known history, as from a breakers) be cause for my woes??
Seem to recall a broke crank sensor will kill the car, but a failing one, or the wrong one will cause shaky running - does it extend to actually stopping the car idling?
Next Q - is there a way of knowing what CS my car is supposed to have?
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HAHA!! You're not far off! Got a text off my sister a few mins ago, to ask if this old car part she found at home is ok to give to her hamster as a gnawing toy thing. :D
Apparently it was inside a wood climate control panel, in the hallway.
I am happy to add this adventure to the list of things I shall never live down ::)
Let this be a lesson to OOFers - don't store your ICVs inside a spare Climate Panel at 12.30 at night - they are prone to becoming lost!!
Lol only just see this post ;D
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Next step, just had a brainwave...
Would the incorrect crank sensor (of no known history, as from a breakers) be cause for my woes??
Seem to recall a broke crank sensor will kill the car, but a failing one, or the wrong one will cause shaky running - does it extend to actually stopping the car idling?
Next Q - is there a way of knowing what CS my car is supposed to have?
Quite possible
Early 2.5`s were fitted with the Siemens CS
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I'm sending Rob G a pack of cookies, now! :y
Right, on the lookout for a Siemens Crank sensor then! :)
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I think there is only one type of crank sensor with square connector (early 2,5) and two types with oval connector. You have propably the one with square connector so that's identification made easy :)
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Just for reference, here;s my MAF sensor, which I think is supposed to give a good clue (though not always conclusive?) as to which Crank Sensor I need? (will check tonight which is fitted)
(http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm240/leflemmy/DSC_1270_zpse134b4b6.jpg)
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Hi, Diamond Black Geezer, I find this thead fascinating. Good luck in resolving it.
How long had it been standing and not run?
Was it running normally before?
Was it left outside in the weather all that time?
My Senators behaved similarly if left unused for more than a week. They had distributors right at the front of the bonnet, near the cheese cutter grill, and rain blowing in on them would cause symptons like the ones you describe. Omegas have their ignition electronics tucked away somewhere much dryer, but in time it may get damp and misbehave.
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I actually find this fascinating, too. It's a problem to be resolved, that's all. :y
1) technically 1 year, for a matter of seconds, to test it actually ran after doing the cam cover gaskets. But as an everyday driver 7 years.
2) Always ran perfectly, like a sewing machine. Even now it starts instantly, just doesn't idle.
3) In car port. (Actually pretty well protected - rust no more than when she was laid up)
The ignition being rear of the engine, as you say, should leave it more protected than a Senny; however, the scuttle and wipers have been off for a while. (the usual direction of wind/rain does tend to leave the front of the car fairly dry, but not going to say you're definitely wrong. A damp/worn DIS pack is still possible)
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If it ran a year ago plug led order, etc. must ne OK. I'd be tempted to put a hair dryer, or a hot air blower on warm air full blast above the coil pask and lead ends and dry things out. After a few hours it might run normally again.
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Thanks :y
Well i seem to think it idled ok, like I say it was over a year ago, and it was a quick fire up after doing the gaskets, nothing more just a 'check we've got the pipes all back in', kind of thing Though when I fired it up for the first time in a year, the other week, there was a strong smell of petrol - Caused by a fuel union not being tight enough. So clearly the previous engine start it wasn't run for any more than a few seconds, otherwise it would have stunk to high heaven like she did the other day... if we follow?
Suspecting crank sensor more and more - in that this was the original cause of being laid up 7 years ago. The replacement was fitted when she was still owned by father, however (slightly incredibly) wasn't actually started up. He fitted it, but never checked to see if she's start. Maybe because he didn't want this 'impossible to fix car' to be down to a mere £15 wire from the scrappy, he'd since bought the Turbo Weasel, so perhaps lost interest, I don't know. Eh, 'tis all in the past now :)~
The next time she was turned over was I think before we did the DIS pack. So about a year-18month ago. This was to check for leaking oil from the gaskets, after a good wipe around. What I'm 'theorising' is that if the crank sensor is either 'dickey' or just the wrong Bosch one, after a few starts she's had in the past year-or-so, the rough idle problem could be starting to assert itself. Alternatively, the CS from the scrappy could be faulty itself - the reason it was in the scrap yard in the first place??
Anyway, the list, in terms of likeliness is as follows...
1) Vac pipes - Symptoms suggest strongly this. Though they seem ok, have a friend bringing a set tonight, so a simple swap over will confirm/end this theory. Also seem to think the brake pedal felt a little hard...might be my imagination... hmm...
2) Crank sensor - Hear lots of rough running issues caused my these. Will check tonight if the correct Siemens or incorrect Bosch is fitted. Again, easy diagnosis if wrong.
3) Breather pipes - Have re-routed them as per excellent Marks DTM diagram diagram, which didn't alter anything. So either still have them wrong, or it's not this. Hence lower down in probability.
4) DIS pack - low probability as purely down to cost/pain of a job to do, really! Rather it wasn't this! Looks dry, looks like always been dry, but very open to the possibility.
5) HT leads - they are well, well n need of a change, splits, taped up splits, signs of crumbling/nibbled rubber etc.. Caused by being fried in engine oil before the gaskets and last DIS pack went pop :D
6) No oil in tappets. Not mentioned on here, buy suggested my chap coming over tonight. He has known this to cause bad idle, as the engine oil's had lots of time to drain away.
7) Stale Petrol - Though I will be changing, the fact she starts immediately, just like always, suggests it's not a problem in this area.
Phew! Speak soon! :y
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I still suspect that DIS pack is faulty.. Really not too bad of a job to do, took about hour and a half when i swapped my old pack :)
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Car ran ok.
You did cam covers and started it.
Runs like a bag of sh*t.
HT leads wrong way round imo.
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6) No oil in tappets. Not mentioned on here, buy suggested my chap coming over tonight. He has known this to cause bad idle, as the engine oil's had lots of time to drain away.
Would cause noise but not poor idling as the valves still open a bit which at idle would be 'enough' for it to run ok ish.
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Cheers boys, Mr DTM Calib, Mr The Bear and Mr Temetsy.. will try all this evening :y
The only snag with the DIS pack is it's even more of a bugger than for every other Omega owner - for the reasons mentioned earlier. I either get another Vectra pack (rather not), or fit an Omega one, but solder on the proper Omega plug back into the loom (more aggro, but feel it's the 'proper' way to do it)
Will get to the nearside bank of plugs tonight and swap the leads round/get to the DIS pack and trace where they're going. My mate's got a set of good, 'known' leads, so we'll be putting them on :y
Will also try and get a paperclip test done, just to check anything obvious being thrown up. Thanks again, will report back later on tonight!
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it sounds more like you got a miss on a couple of cylinders thus improving the two leads round wrong theory.
if the coilpack was nackered cos of the switch over of connectors i'd have thought it wouldnt have fired at all.
but im sure dtm will confirm this or not :)
look forward to seeing results.
and dont forget to look at lizzie zooms easy to read guide for connecting the leads to the dis. i think its 531 then 264.
completely messing me all up ::) (i mixed leads up a few times.... as has 4x4 ;D
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To be honest I'd be delighted if it is HT leads - I've had offers of four sets, from three different people so far! :D
Really just want to get out of work, get home, get on with doing them!
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Don't keep us in suspense DBG ;D
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well you lot----what about spark plugs ::) nobody thought sat for ages ::) when I start old engines ie my consul--thar not run for 7 years-started 1st time-why--new fuel and plugs ps check small vacuum pipes to servos on bagpipes-they can split and cause some fun too
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Right.. the cause...?
Details are here...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=126439.30
Air leaking from the EGR where it connects to the MultiRam :D So not as such leaking pipes, but of course the identical effect, and the system is losing air, so whoever said leaky pies gets a point.
After an eveing poking at tweaking, the idle's down to about 1000rpm, and hunting slightly up to approx 1100rpm. I'd say this means a slight leak somewhere, still. But VERY happy that she's actually running. I feel I have something to work with now, you know?
So...NEXT... Where can I get suitable quality replacements for the thin, brittle pipes on Omegas?? :y
And is there anything else I should be looking at to cure a high idle?
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Can you not isolate the leaky vacuum hose by elimination? The vacuum comes from the inlet manifold passenger side to the brake servo, then tees off the servo line to narrow black pipes to dual rams, vacuum switches for HBV, EGR etc, climate control panel, and others for all I know. If you remove pipes from connectors below servo pipe one by one and put your finger over the hole you should soon find which one is leaky.
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Hi, Terry
That's my next job, for sure. There's a fair few 'professional bodges' on the pipework which could be suspect. Pulling the thicker pipe direct to the servo off after the engine had run a while made a hiss, so clearly pressure isn't being lost before the non-return valve. Will double-check I've got the pipes routed correctly, then start hunting out leaks.
Slight air leak now definitely the way to go. There's potential for there to be a leak under the multiram plenum (as this was removed for doing the gaskets) - as there could be a pipe partially blocked or maybe even the multirams aren't seated properly.
Wednesday is my next night for working on her, so until then, any further tips for identifying a leak, and a source for replacing the pipes (which are somewhat past their best :D) feel free to comment :)
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Forgive me guys, but there are no vacuum lines for the multiram that connect to the EGR???? Or do you mean the vac line NEAR the EGR?
Sorry if ive got confused DBG :)
Ps, glad you got it running ok. :y :y :y
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No, you're spot on, no actual lines Mutiram-to-EGR.
My specific issue was that the EGR itself that connects via three studs to the side of the Multiram plenum wasn't seated correctly. So drawing in air where it isn't supposed to was causing a fast/erratic/nonexistent idle, and that join being now hylomar'd up nicely has improved things dramatically.
Like I say, I'm now from...
-not idling, pressure 'kickback' causing pop (the air intake lid sporadically popping from the pressure!) fast rpm
after gasket on EGR to Multiram, to...
-running sweet, only at 1000rpm, then after getting to about 90oC, hunting from 1000-1500(!)rpm
After cooling down, then running again, to...
-fast idle (approx 1000rpm) with slight hunting to 1100rpm ish.
Mr The Bear, I'd say running "OK" being the operative word!! ;D She's not 100%, but maybe 80% :y
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Well its a very good start. Well done mate :y
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Cheers!! That's much appreciated :)
Once again, stuck at work, when I'd rather be at home tinkering >:( :y
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Double check the main vac line from plenum to brake servo... it can chafe where it crosses the aircon plumbing, causing an almost invisible leak... a couple of wraps with insulation tape is a quick fix :y
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Will definitely double check. This main pipe has been replaced as of last night (with one, interestingly, with insulating tape round it, where it crosses the aircon plumbing! :D)
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Hypothosising again...
If that brake servo pipe had a vac leak from rubbing against the A/C or whatever. Could this 'rob' the multirams of the AMOUNT of vacuum required to operate them?
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It could, one supposes. Though not sure if my issues are caused my the Multirams not working. I'd have thought the hunting etc.. is more down to for instance, the ICV not getting the proper 'oomph' - which I appreciate, would be the same root cause you mention.
I will pop off the man vac pipe, and try and give it a blow, maybe trying the old leaky bike tyre trick - soapy water on it, look for bubbles? That might work on other pipes, too, actually.
The more I think about it, though, I seem to remember the Multiram didn't want to go on very well due to the plethora of vac pipes all over the place - in fact there was a pipe that popped off, as I seem to remember - just spotted it before putting it on proper, after a 'dry run' maybe find that, check it's not leaking a little air...
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Disconnect the servo pipe to plenum connection and blank the plenum hole over....then try.
This eliminates all the vac piping, if it now runs fine you can add section back in one by one to narrow the fault down.
Certainly don't go willy nilly replacing bits as all you do is add more unknowns :y
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Disconnect the servo pipe to plenum connection and blank the plenum hole over....then try.
This eliminates all the vac piping, if it now runs fine you can add section back in one by one to narrow the fault down.
Certainly don't go willy nilly replacing bits as all you do is add more unknowns :y
Thats a really good point, i never thought of that!
Presumably a bolt will fit?
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Ahhh, thanks Mark DTM!
See I would have reasoned by doing that she'd run rough too, as the pipework isn't all connected as it wants to be... But as you say, blank the plenum hole off, which makes sense.
Also, as I have my suspicions, that the multiram plenum isn't mated quite right, or an o-ring's slipped or something, if the problem persists, then it's a strong contender that it's this.
Much appreciated! God, I can't wait to get back to giving advice to members, not taking. I'm never comfortable borrowing even a quid off someone, and taking free advice off people comes into that category. I always try and give back where I've taken :)
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DTM charges £400 a response. His bill will be PM'd at the end of the tax year ;D
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DTM charges £400 a response. His bill will be PM'd at the end of the tax year ;D
;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D :y
If I blank off, as the £400-a-time response ( :y) suggests, will this kill all vaccuum, including the thin vac pipes? A bit like cutting an electrical wire, it kills the 'circuit' Or will blocking the plenum and main servo vac pipe thereby narrow down the leak to one of these thinner pipes?
Sorry, this is a question I could answer by just doing it, but I'm not going to get chance to look at her until Wednesday, and the suspense kills!!! :P
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You wont be killing intake vacuum... by bunging the brake servo entry point youve simply cut off the vacuum going to the brake booster and the multirams (none of which are needed as the cars sitting in park on your drive).
if you find that the idle smooths out you know that the vac leak is somewhere in those vac lines (brake servo pipe, multiram lines etc.)
:)
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It will remove the VAC feed to all vac operated devices e.g. multirams, brake servo, heater system, air injection valve.
To block, I usually use very well secured tape (needs to be well secured or it will get sucked in) or I have a bolt of smaller diameter then the hole with 2-orings around it, this fits snugly inside the hole.
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Much appreciated. Already looking in the warehouse at work for any stray O-rings that might fall into my pocket :y :D
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i bought an o ring set from hellfrauds. only couple of quid and all the o ring sizes you could need :)
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just to reiterate.
defo make sure the hole is sealed. for one, your testing will obviously be pointless if youve replaced a vacuum leak...with another.
but most importantly (and i dont know if anyonse done this)... i stupidly started my car with the brake servo pipe disconnected and i can only describe it as an explosion out of the hole :o :o :o nearly poo'd myself :-[
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Looks like 'in the woods' isn't the only place The Bear sh!ts :y
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i bought an o ring set from hellfrauds. only couple of quid and all the o ring sizes you could need :)
That only guarantees that you wont have the correct sized O ring for what you need :y (I have a metric and imperial set and they are never bloody right ;D :D)
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Fair point.
Just to re-clarify Mark.... will a bolt actually screw in to that port where the servo pipe usually goes? and the o rings just help seal it up?
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Hope something like a wishbone bolt or something will pop in. It's fairly hefty, seem to recall 22 or 24mm spanner used for the vac hose. Will rummage in the garage...
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Hope something like a wishbone bolt or something will pop in. It's fairly hefty, seem to recall 22 or 24mm spanner used for the vac hose. Will rummage in the garage...
17 and 19 used to undo / tighten the brake servo vac hose :)
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Hope something like a wishbone bolt or something will pop in. It's fairly hefty, seem to recall 22 or 24mm spanner used for the vac hose. Will rummage in the garage...
your thinking of pipe to egr
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That I am. There were so many spanners knocking around that night my mate came round - me being one of them :)
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Right chaps, progress is...
after blocking off the main servo vac pipe and inlet on the plenum, that brought the idle, very slowly, to about 800rpm 8)
So... After looking as carefully as I can, I can't see any suspect pipes. So can anyone point me in the right direction?sorry it's a short one, using my phone.
:y
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Start putting the pipework back a bit at a time.. I'd start by blocking off the 'takeoffs' from the large pipe to the servo and then reattaching just the servo to the system as there's always a chance the servo is itself leaking air in, and then work your way out from there.
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Also check the servo pipe just behind where it joins the plenum, they can rub on the air con pipe here and result in a hole is a hand fisted spanner spinner has not put them back correctly with the plastic spacer.
From then its a case of working backwards, enabling vac systems one by one.
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Hi all,
I was already out at a prior engagement when I posted that, so unable to reply or of course do anything further on the old girl.
Yep, I'm now following the logic. Sorry, by the time I get on the car late evening, the old grey matter is starting to fail a bit. :( I understand now, how blocking it off there cuts the vacuum to the earlier pipes, too.
Fitted good 2nd hand elbows to the T-piece on the servo main vac pipe, so they're now eliminated as suspect.
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How did you end up blocking it off mate? Bolts 'n' o rings?
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See here, my friend... :y
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=126439.msg1618712#msg1618712
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See here, my friend... :y
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=126439.msg1618712#msg1618712
Cheers mate. so 1p piece and loooads of gaffer tape! And it didn't want to fire at you? lol
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Honestly, seemed fine. And the idle being controlled, steady, and slowly dropping until it settled out at approx 800rpm (maybe a shade under) was a good sign. I just looked at how long I'd spend finding something that was the right sort of thread, then finding O-rings, and thought "well what if..." and there we go. Just a good turn around each to ensure a good seal, and that was that. :y
Will remove and block the T-piece first, then the single one. That should narrow it down straight away. Fingers crossed for the 'single' pipe, as that's narrowed down to one thing straight away!
Ok, so to add to info. For the first half a minute maybe of running (engine was pretty much up to temp btw) there was a slight whistle. The best way I can describe it is being like the comedy whistle when people are snoring in cartoons! Literally, approx 4 every ten seconds. So eg: 2.5secs quiet... 2.5secs whistle... 2.5secs quiet... etc...
I'm going to hazard a guess and say this is one of the 'bagpipes' only a hunch. Now whether this is air escaping, or normal operation, I can't say. Appears to be rearward, at the bulkhead.
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Well... no steps forward, one step back. :(
Ok, so quickly, last thing I had her idling at approx 800rpm, with the man vac hose disconnected and blanked off. Thus proving that the leak is in one of the thin vac hoses.
Tonight, start to narrow down which vac hose it can be. I pulled the hose with the T-piece, blanked it off. Still hunted by about 500rpm. OK, so it's not any of them fed by that pipe. So disconnect the single one after that. Still hunting revs. OK so its neither :o
So after proving it definitely is one of them pipes the other night. I've now proven it's not!
So I thought, ok, lets just go through each of the 'bagpipes' and pull both hoses off, blank them off, and turn the engine over. Each time, still a hunting action.
OK, so I thought, let's just put things back to how they were the other night, back to a steadily idling car, and start again. Unplug the main vac hose from the plenum, blank off the plenum.... STILL hunting idle. AGGGH!!
I finally tried a little experiment, I unplugged and removed the ICV from its rubber mount, then used a spare ICV as a 'plug' for the hole. I then plugged the car's ICV back in, ran the engine, and spied down the hole. I was able to see a small amount of movement (only a few mm though) as I altered the revs and the car hunted. The car hunted in exactly the same way, which I imagine shows the ICV isn't at fault (as it wasn't actually helping the car control its idle)
Tonight's discovery are:
What I thought was wrong, isn't
The car starts to hunt at approx 95oC about the time the fans kick in.
The ICV doesn't appear to be at fault.
I have less hair on my head than I did at the start of the evening. :(
So where now, what other pipes are there to check?
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I assume a liberal spray of carb cleaner on all the vac pipes has occured here, revs rise=leak found as I was told on here many years ago ?
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I assume a liberal spray of carb cleaner on all the vac pipes has occured here, revs rise=leak found as I was told on here many years ago ?
Right idea but I have been advised to use brake cleaner as carb cleaner can be corrosive to some parts
This method helped me find a failed gasket (egr manifold) instead of a pipe on a bad tickover 4 pot
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I think you should s imply replace them all mate. That is the thin vac pipes and the brake servo pipe. That is cheap and will do your elimination for you cos you could be searching for a hole that's invisible but most deffo there!!!!!
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Cheers boys. Well the carb cleaner method worked the other night to find the gap at the EGR. But all other areas got sprayed pretty well, too, to check for other leaks, and for no alteration of revs, sadly. The pipes want doing, definitely.
Really was hoping one of the 'bagppes' was at fault. Let's assume it's not one of these thin vac pipes - what else could it be - what other vac pipes are there to check? I'm thinking it's something at the back of the plenum, maybe. There's still that 'whistle'
Thanks again, all.
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Cheers boys. Well the carb cleaner method worked the other night to find the gap at the EGR. But all other areas got sprayed pretty well, too, to check for other leaks, and for no alteration of revs, sadly. The pipes want doing, definitely.
Really was hoping one of the 'bagppes' was at fault. Let's assume it's not one of these thin vac pipes - what else could it be - what other vac pipes are there to check? I'm thinking it's something at the back of the plenum, maybe. There's still that 'whistle'
Thanks again, all.
The brake servo pipe runs back and around back of the plenum to make its way to brake servo :y
Get it out of the engine bay and inspect it up close and personal :y
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Oh I know that :y Yeah the pipe is a replacement, as the original (well, looks like a replacement cobbled out of several sections of other air hose) we swapped as a matter of course.
I've just replied to Mark DTM on my Progress Diary thread, who also suggested the same. I'll try and have a look tonight. I was thinking of the 'stuff' behind the plenum that doesn't look easy to check I think it's the 'rear multiram actuator'.
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Right, logically that's suspect. Because after proving (I thought) that it is one of the thin vac pipes, then last night I blank off the main servo hose again, and the prob still persists, that does point to a dickey main servo hose.
I've got offer of a long plenum and some good vac pipework, just waiting on a price for that. Might re-investigate that join between EGR and the plenum, too. Just in case that's started to weep.
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don't forget you may not have sealed it up well enough this time. could just be dodgy gaffa taping skills ;D
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Yeah, That did cross my mind, actually. I was rushing that time. I'm assuming that even the tiniest leak will cause these issues. A bit like if you stopped the engine, pull a vac pipe off, and it hisses, so logically "Oh, that pipe's fine, then, no leak." well, actually, it could take minutes for the pressure to leak out of the system. I guess, anyway.
So I'm heading to the scrappy Sat if I can. I'm away next week on a dirty holiday with the new girlfriend. Sadly the plan was to cruise up to a swanky Country House-turned Hotel in a shiny Diamond Black CDX, purring like a kitten. Instead we're slumming it in the 'stop gap' Turbo Weasel, that grumbles like a flatulent old man that's lost his best shaking stick. Also got three styles of alloy wheel on it, and a red back bumper on a Nocturno Blue car! Looks swish, it does!
Oh, and the wishbone bush has gone again. The cheapy ebay special wasn't going to last years and years, I knew; but a single month is pushing it!!! >:(
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Yeah, That did cross my mind, actually. I was rushing that time. I'm assuming that even the tiniest leak will cause these issues. A bit like if you stopped the engine, pull a vac pipe off, and it hisses, so logically "Oh, that pipe's fine, then, no leak." well, actually, it could take minutes for the pressure to leak out of the system. I guess, anyway.
So I'm heading to the scrappy Sat if I can. I'm away next week on a dirty holiday with the new girlfriend. Sadly the plan was to cruise up to a swanky Country House-turned Hotel in a shiny Diamond Black CDX, purring like a kitten. Instead we're slumming it in the 'stop gap' Turbo Weasel, that grumbles like a flatulent old man that's lost his best shaking stick. Also got three styles of alloy wheel on it, and a red back bumper on a Nocturno Blue car! Looks swish, it does!
Oh, and the wishbone bush has gone again. The cheapy ebay special wasn't going to last years and years, I knew; but a single month is pushing it!!! >:(
:o :o :o :o :o :o
Taxi Al has a link to a good aftermarket set that includes drop links and rod ends. that's what I got and 6 months later still going well touch wood :y
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I feel your pain - My Steering Idler has managed all of 2,400 miles.
What's the craic with these now? Lemforder still the preferred route?
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Last I heard was buy a genuine Vx and it'll go for about 70-90k / 10 years, whatever, almost fit and forget. Apparently the pattern ones often have play in them right from being fitted. There's a fair amount of force that goes through them, and hence their failure early. Lots of people now saying Lemforder aren't as good as they used to be.
So... Safe to say don't buy one from your last source, personally I would have thought Lemforder be fine - so long as there's a decent difference in price between it and a genuine Vx one, otherwise get genuine GM. Alternatively, given that genuine Vx ones do last a good many years, get down to a scrappy and get one for near-pennies. So long as the Omega you're getting it off is either low mileage or at least it 'feels tight' it's still going to be cost effective compared with the one you got that only lasted less than 3k.
It's cost vs longevity I suppose. I'm having this debate elsewhere on the forum for batteries. I reckon the 'brilliant Genuine GM' Go battery that cost about £70 lasted 6 - 7 years. So a tenner a year. Well there are people claiming 6 years and longer for Exide / Varta etc.. which are in the £50 region. On the other hand they're only guaranteed for 3 years, lots of them... so if it does go pop after 4 years, you were better getting genuine Vx... ARRRGH!!!
Just don't buy £4.99 vertical bushes :y ;D
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Last I heard was buy a genuine Vx and it'll go for about 70-90k / 10 years, whatever, almost fit and forget. Apparently the pattern ones often have play in them right from being fitted. There's a fair amount of force that goes through them, and hence their failure early. Lots of people now saying Lemforder aren't as good as they used to be.
So... Safe to say don't buy one from your last source, personally I would have thought Lemforder be fine - so long as there's a decent difference in price between it and a genuine Vx one, otherwise get genuine GM. Alternatively, given that genuine Vx ones do last a good many years, get down to a scrappy and get one for near-pennies. So long as the Omega you're getting it off is either low mileage or at least it 'feels tight' it's still going to be cost effective compared with the one you got that only lasted less than 3k.
It's cost vs longevity I suppose. I'm having this debate elsewhere on the forum for batteries. I reckon the 'brilliant Genuine GM' Go battery that cost about £70 lasted 6 - 7 years. So a tenner a year. Well there are people claiming 6 years and longer for Exide / Varta etc.. which are in the £50 region. On the other hand they're only guaranteed for 3 years, lots of them... so if it does go pop after 4 years, you were better getting genuine Vx... ARRRGH!!!
Just don't buy £4.99 vertical bushes :y ;D
I doff my cap, good Sir. :y
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No worries, you're welcome.
Now can you make my Omega work, pleease??? ;)
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Last entry before I leave for my holiday :)
Trying to get the bagpipe/vacuum reservoir at the top right (the one above the pollen filter) Reason being...
Pull out the 'twin' vac pipes at the main servo hose and blow into the vac pipes - this generated a small hiss - traced to the top right bagpipe.
So...
Pull pipe from 'bagpipe' , then block the outlet with your finger = no leak
refit the vac pipe = leak
therefore must be the seal between bagpipe/vac reservoir and the pipe. I've changed the rubber for what looks to be a better one, still no luck. Still hisses.
Farewell, and look forward to your answers when i come back! Thanks :y
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NEW PROGRESS!
So, now having changed the main vac pipe, and all but two of the thin vac pipes (leading to the small reservoir at the pollen filter) the car idled nicely... slowly dropped to about 900rpm (not great, but still, steady) Then, after about tn mins or so the engine revs built up to about 1200. Once the temp reached an indicated 95o the engine began hunting again, by 500rpm, from 1300ish to 1800ish.
What could be causing this - that's linked to temperature?!?! Or perhaps something is getting soft/leakinging after a certain temp? Maybe thermostat related? Once again, slightly baffled!
OH, and blanking off each of the thin vac pipes one by one doesn't affect the idle, it's still hunts exactly the same
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New ICV time :y
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That was one of the things I changed when it had the rough idle initially... So she's on her second one, sadly! There's the possibility that the second one is duff, too, of course. I'm lucky in that the bits I bought off MissyMV6 included an ICV. I'll fit that tonight, see if that makes a change.
Check here for all the gory details :y
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=126439.new#new
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That was one of the things I changed when it had the rough idle initially... So she's on her second one, sadly! There's the possibility that the second one is duff, too, of course. I'm lucky in that the bits I bought off MissyMV6 included an ICV. I'll fit that tonight, see if that makes a change.
Check here for all the gory details :y
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=126439.new#new
Unless it was a brand new one there's a chance it was already knackered... also depends what you cleaned it with as the seals inside it might now be shot :-\
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NEW PROGRESS!
So, now having changed the main vac pipe, and all but two of the thin vac pipes (leading to the small reservoir at the pollen filter) the car idled nicely... slowly dropped to about 900rpm (not great, but still, steady) Then, after about tn mins or so the engine revs built up to about 1200. Once the temp reached an indicated 95o the engine began hunting again, by 500rpm, from 1300ish to 1800ish.
What could be causing this - that's linked to temperature?!?! Or perhaps something is getting soft/leakinging after a certain temp? Maybe thermostat related? Once again, slightly baffled!
OH, and blanking off each of the thin vac pipes one by one doesn't affect the idle, it's still hunts exactly the same
Although your temp gauge is reading 95 degrees,I wonder what the injection temp sensor is reading which is after all the one that the ecu uses to adjust fueling,might be worth getting some live data and see whats what
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That was one of the things I changed when it had the rough idle initially... So she's on her second one, sadly! There's the possibility that the second one is duff, too, of course. I'm lucky in that the bits I bought off MissyMV6 included an ICV. I'll fit that tonight, see if that makes a change.
Check here for all the gory details :y
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=126439.new#new
Unless it was a brand new one there's a chance it was already knackered... also depends what you cleaned it with as the seals inside it might now be shot :-\
Taxi Al - Oh.... seal inside...? I did ask the question some time ago on here, inquiring about exactly how you're supposed to correctly clean an ICV. In the end I filled it with carb cleaner, and left it to stand overnight, then drained it, and then gave it a squirt of AC90 for lubrication. So there's a strong possibility that there's seals inside that are done in? Well that's good news, in so far as I've got a known good one from MissyMV6, which I can try tonight.
henryd - Is there any way of getting the live data - remembering this car is not MoTd or taxed. Mobile tech2 person? Or is there another way?
Thanks to both, I can feel this getting there slowwwwly but surely!!! :)
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Well, as per...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=126439.45
After changing the plenum, doing the breather bridge seals, a new throttle body, with a differently adjusted screw (mine was wound in almost all the way, this new one appears untouched since the factory) the old girl is now running slightly lumpy and there's now the EML flashing.
The only things are...
-heard a trickle of water, looked under the car, then realised that the coolant hose that goes to the throttle body had started to trickle some water down the engine. I mopped up all that was visible, and can't see any electrical connectors that could be affected. Will check there's no water that's found its way into the plugwells, but don't think so.
-As the throttle butterflies are now in a different position, could it be that the ECU is now 'learning' where they are? hence the slightly lumpy idle.
So to quote my dear, late granddad - buggered if I know! :(
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There is no way of saying this without caps lock...
SHE LIVES AND BREATHES AND HUMS LIKE A SEWING MACHINE OPERATED BY FASTIDIOUS BEES!!!!!
The utter delight that I have been experiencing since half 5 last night, I cannot over emphasise. :D
Before I'd got my work suit off I marched through the house, and turned her over, to let her run, to see what the state of play was. Lumpy, but not as lumpy as last night, and as the idle crept down...and down...and down...finally settling at a dead-on indicated 500rpm, the temp rose, up to an indicated 92-3, but never seemed to get much more. And slowly but surely with every minute, the burble and slight judders, the momentary rocking from side to side disappeared, leaving a smooth, vibrationless idle. If I rested my hand on the plenum and I were deaf I wouldn't know the engine was running :) Just like she used to be!!!
The sewing-machine smoothness was always my favourite thing about the engine...well, 2nd, after the noise she made over 4000rpm :y
Now onto the super-critical...just two questions -
There appears to be a faint hiss, literally like someone blowing gentle through a drinking straw, right on/inside the breather bridge. It's got brand new seals, fitted with care and a thin smear of clean oil.
Question 1 - Is this the noise of the air passing through normally, or should I be looking further into this?
There's a 'squeeksqueeksqueeksqueeksqueeksqueek' coming from the front of the engine. It appears to be coming from inside the cam belt cowling - but I wouldn't put £1 on it, it might just as easily an auxiliary pulley.
Question 2- Is this noise a sign of a cam pulley about to fail?
I think it's safe that we can trace this fault now, to a mis-adjusted throttle body adjuster screw, which neither me nor the old man can imagine how that's happened. It's completely stuffed the idle, the ECUs been frantically trying to correct it, but the butterflies being never allowed to close fully has sent everything 'to cock' as we northern fellows say :y
as per...
(http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm240/leflemmy/DSC_1369-2_zps46f56c9a.jpg)
I think a final word of thanks to all who have offered top-notch advice and help. Marks guide, and reference to some dodgy mechanics winding the TB open got me thinking... "hang onnnn, my father's a dodgy mechanic!! Now what if..." ;D
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Have located this thread...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=122189.15
though my symptoms are the same/very close, the above thread refers to a new kit fitted - mine has 17k (might be 27k) and 7 years (of non-running) on it. Having the cambelt done is most definitely on the cards, of course, but up until last night I didn't have a car that would even idle, so any thoughts of cambelts had to go on the back-burner!
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Glad it's sorted. :D
Question 1 - Is this the noise of the air passing through normally, or should I be looking further into this?
Yes, probably. TADTS.
There's a 'squeeksqueeksqueeksqueeksqueeksqueek' coming from the front of the engine. It appears to be coming from inside the cam belt cowling - but I wouldn't put £1 on it, it might just as easily an auxiliary pulley.
Question 2- Is this noise a sign of a cam pulley about to fail?
Could a bit of coolant have got in it? If so, probably just the belt slipping on the pulleys if it's got a wet patch.
mine has 17k (might be 27k) and 7 years (of non-running) on it. Having the cambelt done is most definitely on the cards, of course, but up until last night I didn't have a car that would even idle, so any thoughts of cambelts had to go on the back-burner!
Yes, I'd get the belt changed if it's sat that long. Not impossible that a bearing in an idler has dried out.
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Had to look up what 'TADTS' means ::)
;D
I suppose a very easy way of confirming the noise being the auxiliary pulleys is to whip the 'fan' belt off to see if the noise persists. Then split the cam belt cover, if the noise gets louder, well, there's my answer :)
Looks like I'll now be scouring the previous threads regarding cambelts. It was last done by Vauxhall, but I'm going to experiment just how cheap a cambelt/tensioner can be done, whilst still maintaining a quality job. Strikes me there's lots of OOFers buying locking kits, which after being used once, invariably must sit in garages unused for a period of 4 years, and potentially never again. Given the nature of the age, I'm temped to say the belt doesn't need doing, as it's basically always the tensioner that fails, and I know plenty of people are now replacing the belts every other time, doing the tensioner at 40k, but belt at 80k. Same as the water pump - it's hardly done anything, about 17k. So hoping that I can shave a few £ here and there without, as I say, scrimping on the quality of the job. :y
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Had to look up what 'TADTS' means ::)
;D
I suppose a very easy way of confirming the noise being the auxiliary pulleys is to whip the 'fan' belt off to see if the noise persists. Then split the cam belt cover, if the noise gets louder, well, there's my answer :)
Looks like I'll now be scouring the previous threads regarding cambelts. It was last done by Vauxhall, but I'm going to experiment just how cheap a cambelt/tensioner can be done, whilst still maintaining a quality job. Strikes me there's lots of OOFers buying locking kits, which after being used once, invariably must sit in garages unused for a period of 4 years, and potentially never again. Given the nature of the age, I'm temped to say the belt doesn't need doing, as it's basically always the tensioner that fails, and I know plenty of people are now replacing the belts every other time, doing the tensioner at 40k, but belt at 80k. Same as the water pump - it's hardly done anything, about 17k. So hoping that I can shave a few £ here and there without, as I say, scrimping on the quality of the job. :y
If the timing belt covers are coming off,change all of it with the exception of the water pump on the v6's,if that aint broke leave it Imo :y
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If the timing belt covers are coming off,change all of it with the exception of the water pump on the v6's,if that aint broke leave it Imo :y
Agreed. :y You will find it makes no odds to cost whether you source just the idlers or a kit including the belt and, as said, once you've done all the dismantling, it makes no sense not to replace the belt. Contitech/SKF/Gates kit for just under the £100 mark and see if you can borrow the locking tools from someone local.
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Fair enough, that makes sense.
I have to say I'm a little suprised, well, confused, at the number of tensioners for sale second hand. I'm all for fitting a used, known good part to a car, but in this case surely asecond hand tensioner that are prone to going pop after 40k+, and even if unused after 4 years+ will do the same, selling a used tensioner seems like selling second hand oil. ???
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Fair enough, that makes sense.
I have to say I'm a little suprised, well, confused, at the number of tensioners for sale second hand. I'm all for fitting a used, known good part to a car, but in this case surely asecond hand tensioner that are prone to going pop after 40k+, and even if unused after 4 years+ will do the same, selling a used tensioner seems like selling second hand oil. ???
Yep.. Except you can burn 2nd hand oil, so it has some use. ;D
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It's a bit like KFC... as long as people buy it, then other people will sell it ::)
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It's a bit like KFC... as long as people buy it, then other people will sell it ::)
KFC is very tasty, though. Don't think I'd want to eat second hand oil or .. well I suppose I probably am with the KFC ;D
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SHE LIVES AND BREATHES AND HUMS LIKE A SEWING MACHINE OPERATED BY FASTIDIOUS BEES!!!!!
Well done ..glad you sorted it :y
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It's a bit like KFC... as long as people buy it, then other people will sell it ::)
KFC is very tasty, though. Don't think I'd want to eat second hand oil or .. well I suppose I probably am with the KFC ;D
Yeah ok, not the best analogy ::) ;D
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You're not eating second hand meat with KFC, that's McDonald's you're thinking of... KFC use genetically, chemically mutated meat, but at least it's fresh :D
Both, of course, ensure the animals live in only the very highest standard of tortuous squalor. :y
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You're not eating second hand meat cardboard with KFC, that's McDonald's you're thinking of... KFC use genetically, chemically mutated meat, but at least it's fresh vaguely of animal origin :D
Both, of course, ensure the animals live in only the very highest standard of tortuous squalor. :y
Fixed. :y
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The utter delight that I have been experiencing since half 5 last night, I cannot over emphasise. :D
Before I'd got my work suit off I marched through the house, and turned her over
:o :o :o :o :o :o ;D ;D ;D
Thank fek you sorted it! Was getting concerned for a while that there was some gremlin living in your engine bay severing wires / causing chaos while you were on 'ere talkin' about vac leaks ;D
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You're not eating second hand meat cardboard with KFC, that's McDonald's you're thinking of... KFC use genetically, chemically mutated meat, but at least it's fresh vaguely of animal origin :D
Both, of course, ensure the animals live in only the very highest standard of tortuous squalor. :y
Fixed. :y
haha!!!
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The utter delight that I have been experiencing since half 5 last night, I cannot over emphasise. :D
Before I'd got my work suit off I marched through the house, and turned her over
:o :o :o :o :o :o ;D ;D ;D
Thank fek you sorted it! Was getting concerned for a while that there was some gremlin living in your engine bay severing wires / causing chaos while you were on 'ere talkin' about vac leaks ;D
and hahah!!! again!
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Ok, so as we know my old lady is nearly there - new suspension, cambelt, pulleys, brake hoses, and just a fuel leak, wheels to source and wiper arms to refit (need to find out about this sealant you're supposed to use to avoid the coil pack getting wet/damaged) I have slightly rough/lumpy idling again. I've shield away from running her until after the cambelt was changed. This is now done, so I can re-investigate.
It could be the coil pack which has become damaged with water ingress or...
Given that the car was laid up originally because 'it just died' one day (and was eventually traced to a dead crank sensor) a new one was subsequently fitted, by which time she has been replaced with a FL :'(, and never run again. but
What if that was the wrong sensor fitted? It wouldn't necessarily show up immediately, and the 5-6 months she's been idling once or twice a week must surely only add up to barely a week or two's normal driving, in terms of minutes of engine running time.
What do we think? Either way it's two potentially expensive things causing the lumpy idle (which goes away over say 1500rpm) so I'd rather not just pop off and buy a brand new DIS pac and crank sensor on a whim - especially if it ends up being something like a wire not plugged in properly, you know? ::)
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....need to find out about this sealant you're supposed to use to avoid the coil pack getting wet/damaged.
I use ordinary builders clear silicone which can be had for around £3 for a big tube. :y I believe that some of our wealthier members use cam cover goo! :o ;D
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If you're going to use silicone in visible areas(and there are plenty of reasons to do so), use black and wipe off any excess. It just looks less like a bodge that way.
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If you're going to use silicone in visible areas(and there are plenty of reasons to do so), use black and wipe off any excess. It just looks less like a bodge that way.
::) ;D
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Cheers boys! At least now that the cambelt's done I know I can rev her without the fear that the engine will go pop any second now! :)
Still nonethewiser about that idle, though... hmmmm