Omega Owners Forum

Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Entwood on 28 November 2014, 21:54:22

Title: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Entwood on 28 November 2014, 21:54:22
I'm horrified !!

Diamond Black Geezer is openly and blatantly selling unproven PATTERN THROTTLE BODY SCREWS in this thread ..

 http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=127515.0

Has any in depth analysis on the effects the large mass of the head of those screws will have on the opening speed of the throttles ?? or the forces required to overcome the inertia of such mahoosive screw heads ?? On the DBW cars will the throttle motor cope ?? on non-DBW is the throttle cable man enough ?? What will be the effect on the cruise control mechanisms ?? Will the screws themselves cope with the environment and forces they will be required to handle ?

Is it actually SAFE to fit such unproven, overweight, possibly substandard items ??

Has there been any in depth testing of the effect the protruding head will have on the airflow through the throttles ??

The restriction to flow, and subsequent turbulence will surely reduce the available power by some 0.000001 bhp ?? The time delay on opening the overweight throttles will reduce acceleration by 0.000001 ft/sec

The combination of these two effects will be to reduce the performance of this classic 2.5 V6 to something akin to a Daewoo .. should such sacrilege be permitted on this forum ?

These may seem a good idea due to their low price, but I suggest caution before making such a momentous leap into the darkness of PATTERN PARTS

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: 4x4 on 28 November 2014, 21:57:21
Ban him  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: 05omegav6 on 28 November 2014, 22:00:01
A verbal warning should suffice... Afterall, it's not a proper Omega :D
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: symes on 28 November 2014, 22:01:12
The heads of them bolts will cause disrupted airflow---might as well drill staight through shaft and use nuts and bolts  :D :D :D :D
Ban him  ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Broomies Mate on 28 November 2014, 22:15:33
All joking aside, they will cause some turbulence and will be detrimental to performance.

Was it our American friend on here who did a How To on TB polishing and porting?  :-\
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Nick W on 28 November 2014, 22:30:47
All joking aside, they will cause some turbulence and will be detrimental to performance.


With the emphasis on some. I doubt that it will be even noticable, although I would probably have used button-headed bolts to reduce the effect.
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Terbs on 28 November 2014, 22:59:38
Nothing at all wrong with pattern parts...
I just had a tin of Aldi soup and it tasted like the real thing ;D :y
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: omegod on 28 November 2014, 23:23:06
I hope he is prepared to prove he is paying HMRC of any possible profit he may be making from these dubious parts  !
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Andy B on 28 November 2014, 23:25:43
Nothing at all wrong with pattern parts...
I just had a tin of Aldi soup and it tasted like the real thing ;D :y

(http://popsop.ru/wp-content/uploads/it_has_to_be_heinz_preview.jpg)

 ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 28 November 2014, 23:38:59
All joking aside, they will cause some turbulence and will be detrimental to performance.

Was it our American friend on here who did a How To on TB polishing and porting?  :-\


how did you decide on that  ::)


please let us know..
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: tidla on 29 November 2014, 00:04:15
Apparently pattern soup has a thicker consistency and air flow when blowing is greatly increased to cool. Too much cooling has the undesirable affect of blowing the soup off the spoon.

 ;D
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Steve B on 29 November 2014, 00:23:44
Nothing at all wrong with pattern parts...
I just had a tin of Aldi soup and it tasted like the real thing ;D :y

(http://popsop.ru/wp-content/uploads/it_has_to_be_heinz_preview.jpg)

 ::) ::) ::)
Not for baked beans  there crap  ;D ;D

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/beans.jpg)

£1.27  4 tins :y
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Andy B on 29 November 2014, 08:59:31
....
£1.27  4 tins :y

Tray of 12 x 16oz in the Company Shop ....... £2.04  ;)
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: tigers_gonads on 29 November 2014, 10:15:35
BURN HIM I SAY  ;D

Admin are far too lenient nowdays  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 29 November 2014, 10:22:08
All joking aside, they will cause some turbulence and will be detrimental to performance.


With the emphasis on some. I doubt that it will be even noticable, although I would probably have used button-headed bolts to reduce the effect.

Maybe the extra turbulance will be beneficial to performance.  :-\  Much testing and a written report is required I think!  ::)  ;D
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: omega3000 on 29 November 2014, 15:05:49
All joking aside, they will cause some turbulence and will be detrimental to performance.

Was it our American friend on here who did a How To on TB polishing and porting?  :-\

Aye , grind em down smooth  :y
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: flyer 0712 on 29 November 2014, 16:04:44
Pattern parts or not,do they need any locking fluid on the threads when fitting.....or are the main dealer ones threaded so they grip tight and will not shake loose,if so will the pattern parts work loose,,,,,only asking as many years ago a friend of mine took his escort one apart including removing the screws and refitted  old ones only to have one come undone and drop into inlet manifold and ending up on top of piston...So just interested to know,, :y
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: biggriffin on 29 November 2014, 17:19:45
Custard.
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: omega3000 on 29 November 2014, 19:09:27
(http://images.omegaowners.com/images/guides/throttle_body_port/COmparison-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Broomies Mate on 29 November 2014, 19:11:22
That's the one I was thinking of EMD - Good Darts!

 :y
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Broomies Mate on 29 November 2014, 19:16:29
All joking aside, they will cause some turbulence and will be detrimental to performance.

Was it our American friend on here who did a How To on TB polishing and porting?  :-\


how did you decide on that  ::)


please let us know..

Because, Cem, the throttle butterfly is a part designed and machined to allow a smooth flow of air with as little restriction/resistance as possible.  Turbulence at this stage of Induction can only be a bad thing.  Not to mention that the bolt heads are chuffin massive, so will restrict air-flow.

As always, I have my asbestos suit on and await the flames.  ::)
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 29 November 2014, 19:21:36
All joking aside, they will cause some turbulence and will be detrimental to performance.

Was it our American friend on here who did a How To on TB polishing and porting?  :-\


how did you decide on that  ::)


please let us know..

Because, Cem, the throttle butterfly is a part designed and machined to allow a smooth flow of air with as little restriction/resistance as possible.  Turbulence at this stage of Induction can only be a bad thing.  Not to mention that the bolt heads are chuffin massive, so will restrict air-flow.

As always, I have my asbestos suit on and await the flames.  ::)




turbulent and laminar flow must be calculated depending on the volumetric flow through the throttle diameter .. you can not just look at the screws and say "hey this will be turbulent" ;D   


and besides, inlet manifold and inlet manifold pipe surface is very rough wihch may cause a turbulent flow at some rpm range.. but not that easy to say without calculation


Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Broomies Mate on 29 November 2014, 19:24:12
turbulent and laminar flow must be calculated depending on the volumetric flow through the throttle diameter .. you can not just look at the screws and say "hey this will be turbulent" ;D   


and besides, inlet manifold and inlet manifold pipe surface is very rough wihch may cause a turbulent flow at some rpm range.. but not that easy to say without calculation

Yes you can, I did!  ;)
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 29 November 2014, 19:24:35
also must note, turbulent flow which means slow air flow is desired at low rpm range which increases combustion efficiency
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 29 November 2014, 19:25:30
turbulent and laminar flow must be calculated depending on the volumetric flow through the throttle diameter .. you can not just look at the screws and say "hey this will be turbulent" ;D   


and besides, inlet manifold and inlet manifold pipe surface is very rough wihch may cause a turbulent flow at some rpm range.. but not that easy to say without calculation

Yes you can, I did!  ;)


believe me it will take quite a long time to calculate that ::)
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 29 November 2014, 19:29:04
please have a look at this one


http://udel.edu/~inamdar/EGTE215/Laminar_turbulent.pdf
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Broomies Mate on 29 November 2014, 19:30:36
turbulent and laminar flow must be calculated depending on the volumetric flow through the throttle diameter .. you can not just look at the screws and say "hey this will be turbulent" ;D   


and besides, inlet manifold and inlet manifold pipe surface is very rough wihch may cause a turbulent flow at some rpm range.. but not that easy to say without calculation

Yes you can, I did!  ;)


believe me it will take quite a long time to calculate that ::)

As usual Cem, you are being pedantry. You know those bolt heads will affect the flow of air, anybody with eye's can see the obvious.

How much it will affect performance is not important.... the fact that IT WILL is the point I have made, and the point I stand by.   :y
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Broomies Mate on 29 November 2014, 19:32:42
please have a look at this one


http://udel.edu/~inamdar/EGTE215/Laminar_turbulent.pdf

Thanks, Cem.  That will come in handy when I have slow running taps.

Now, back to something remotely relevant, please.  :)
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 29 November 2014, 19:33:13
turbulent and laminar flow must be calculated depending on the volumetric flow through the throttle diameter .. you can not just look at the screws and say "hey this will be turbulent" ;D   


and besides, inlet manifold and inlet manifold pipe surface is very rough wihch may cause a turbulent flow at some rpm range.. but not that easy to say without calculation

Yes you can, I did!  ;)


believe me it will take quite a long time to calculate that ::)

As usual Cem, you are being pedantry. You know those bolt heads will affect the flow of air, anybody with eye's can see the obvious.

How much it will affect performance is not important.... the fact that IT WILL is the point I have made, and the point I stand by.   :y




nope..


and the effect of those bolts on flow is really negligible compared to total area..  because the backing metal horizontal surface is bigger
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Broomies Mate on 29 November 2014, 19:35:38

nope..


and the effect of those bolts on flow is really negligible compared to total area..  because the backing metal horizontal surface is bigger

So you are saying there is an effect on air-flow.

So, you are agreeing with me, whilst being a pedant.

Ner ner ner ner ner!  ;D
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 29 November 2014, 19:40:27

nope..


and the effect of those bolts on flow is really negligible compared to total area..  because the backing metal horizontal surface is bigger

So you are saying there is an effect on air-flow.

So, you are agreeing with me, whilst being a pedant.

Ner ner ner ner ner!  ;D


every shape change on the flow path of a fluid will effect its flow obviously.. however, those calculations are tedious and complex so some simulators or a wind tunnel model is used mostly.. so , its not that easy to look and have a guess at flow types..  ::)
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: chrisgixer on 29 November 2014, 19:49:07
(http://images.yuku.com/image/gif/a5126f21c888e21dd7b04899176dd385728b07af_r.gif)
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Broomies Mate on 29 November 2014, 19:51:24
(http://images.yuku.com/image/gif/a5126f21c888e21dd7b04899176dd385728b07af_r.gif)
;D
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Nick W on 29 November 2014, 19:51:41
Has anyone else read David Vizard's book on tuning Mini engines? He flow tested a 1.5"SU carb with just those modifications in the diagram, and gained nearly 10cfm, from a starting point of 143cfm which is a sizable improvement for such a simple mod. Threadlock on the screws was recommended!
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Broomies Mate on 29 November 2014, 19:52:53
Has anyone else read David Vizard's book on tuning Mini engines? He flow tested a 1.5"SU carb with just those modifications in the diagram, and gained nearly 10cfm, from a starting point of 143cfm which is a sizable improvement for such a simple mod. Threadlock on the screws was recommended!

Must be a load of bollards.... Cem said so.
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: chrisgixer on 29 November 2014, 19:56:47
Has anyone else read David Vizard's book on tuning Mini engines? He flow tested a 1.5"SU carb with just those modifications in the diagram, and gained nearly 10cfm, from a starting point of 143cfm which is a sizable improvement for such a simple mod. Threadlock on the screws was recommended!

As was added to the guide on here iirc. :)
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 29 November 2014, 20:00:46
Has anyone else read David Vizard's book on tuning Mini engines? He flow tested a 1.5"SU carb with just those modifications in the diagram, and gained nearly 10cfm, from a starting point of 143cfm which is a sizable improvement for such a simple mod. Threadlock on the screws was recommended!

Must be a load of bollards.... Cem said so.


Cem said dont guess at complex subjects  ;)
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Broomies Mate on 29 November 2014, 20:02:50
Cem said dont guess at complex subjects  ;)

It's not complex, Cem.... is bloody obvious.

BM says stop being a complete twunt, there's a good lad.  :y
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 29 November 2014, 20:11:23
Cem said dont guess at complex subjects  ;)

It's not complex, Cem.... is bloody obvious.

BM says stop being a complete twunt, there's a good lad.  :y


not.. you dont have any of those coeffcients let alone any calculations based on air flow at any rpm range
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: The Sheriff on 29 November 2014, 20:15:20
Just buy a car, after a test drive, of course, take it home and use it. Don't fiddle with it's screws or owt, just drive it. If you want a faster car, buy one. :y
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: henryd on 29 November 2014, 20:23:32
Just buy a car, after a test drive, of course, take it home and use it. Don't fiddle with it's screws or owt, just drive it. If you want a faster car, buy one. :y

Pains me to say it but thats quite sensible advice :-X ;)
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Vamps on 29 November 2014, 22:15:29
Just buy a car, after a test drive, of course, take it home and use it. Don't fiddle with it's screws or owt, just drive it. If you want a faster car, buy one. :y

Pains me to say it but thats quite sensible advice :-X ;)

 ;) :D :D
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Mr.OmegaMan on 29 November 2014, 23:06:08
Just buy a car, after a test drive, of course, take it home and use it. Don't fiddle with it's screws or owt, just drive it. If you want a faster car, buy one. :y

Pains me to say it but thats quite sensible advice :-X ;)

 ;) :D :D

Wise words indeed from the experienced famous Daewoo owner   ::) ;D :y
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: chrisgixer on 29 November 2014, 23:33:18
...and service it.  :-X
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Webby the Bear on 30 November 2014, 18:16:42
We started with Tyre threads.

To winter tyre threads.

To cam cover gasket threads.

To fekkin TB screw threads. Wtf  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: 4x4 on 30 November 2014, 18:20:57
What about the oil,coolant,brake threads  ;D
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Taxi_Driver on 30 November 2014, 18:50:47
What about the oil,coolant,brake threads  ;D

Ohhh.....maybe as it coming upto Christmas..,.we might be allowed an oil thread  ::) ;D

Not that im actually bothered....when I take the Octavia in for a service, which I did last week, they just chuck in oil....after draining the old crap out.....not even sure what oil they put in it  ::)
But it isn't burning any.....don't have to top it up inbetween 10k intervals  :y
Not bad for 185k  :)

Did need two new tyres tho.....showing the threads on inside edges.....never spotted that  :-[
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 01 December 2014, 00:34:56
What about a brake fluid thread?  :-\
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Vamps on 01 December 2014, 01:16:41
What about a brake fluid thread?  :-\

Boring, we should have Auto V Manual, as we all know Auto is best......... :y :y
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 01 December 2014, 08:27:04
All joking aside, they will cause some turbulence and will be detrimental to performance.

Was it our American friend on here who did a How To on TB polishing and porting?  :-\


how did you decide on that  ::)


please let us know..

Because, Cem, the throttle butterfly is a part designed and machined to allow a smooth flow of air with as little restriction/resistance as possible.  Turbulence at this stage of Induction can only be a bad thing.  Not to mention that the bolt heads are chuffin massive, so will restrict air-flow.

As always, I have my asbestos suit on and await the flames.  ::)

If it wasn't for the fact there is a chuffing great big plenum chamber after the throttle butterfly I might agree with you.
Title: Re: Should this be allowed ??
Post by: Diamond Black Geezer on 01 December 2014, 09:12:01
Non-GM Throttle Body Screws??

I say ban him!!