Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: viper on 06 December 2014, 14:04:15
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Hi all,
I have a 2000 3.0 V6.
The car has no power when trying to pull off the drive. As if you had a manual choke and forgot to pull it out. This happens when the engine is cold and when its up to temp and you try to re-start the car. Sometimes you can pull away but at a junction you will pull out and the car will loose all power and eventually stall leaving you in a very dangerous position in the road :o
There were no fault codes 73 or 74 at this time.
After much testing of various things, I found that when I disconnected the MAF and started the car many times to re-set things, the fault did not appear. Car idled fine. No loss of power.
Must be a faulty MAF I thought!
Bought a brand new Bosch MAF. Fitted it and re-started car many times to re-set things and car ran fine once or twice then fault re-appeared. The car stalls when trying to idle and has no power at all so you can't move the car.
Paperclip test reveals Fault Codes 73 & 74.
Again, disconnect MAF and it runs fine.
The connector is in good condition to the MAF with no damage to the loom.
The Air filter is brand new - remember car runs fine with MAF disconnected - so I am at a loss :-\
Any help - please :'(
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Any corrosion on the loom plug pins to ecu...?
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Are you certain the new MAF is ok? Sometimes on eBay etc you do get ones claiming to be Bosch etc that are not really.....
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The pins in the connector are fine.
The part was purchased at a reputable Trade Supplier. It is not a fake part off the internet.
It cost £185 !!
:'(
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Kinell, how much :o could have bought a genuine gm one for less :-\
Doesn't mean it's not a dud though... you can prove it isn't working so take it back...
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Christ almighty, take it back regardless.
The pre face lift maf's are very reliable. While its not impossible that its failed, the fact you have two quite reliable parts giving a code does suggest it's not the maf itself.
Is it possible to bell out the pins to ecu with a meter for continuity? Wiggling wires as you go?
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The same part at Vauxhall was - wait for it - £265 + VAT !!! And it is exactly the same Bosch part!
It would be incredible if the new MAF was to blame?
Help!!!
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I think I would take it back, explain it is not working and pickup one from your nearest VX dealer. If its the same kind of cost as 2.2 should be about £80 +vat on TC :y
Edit - clearly the MAF for that engine is a lot more then!
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The previous Bosch unit I suspected was faulty did not give any fault codes. There was no EML either.
Disconnecting and re-connecting the new one has left 73 & 74 in the car's memory me thinks?
I could not find a Bosch MAF cheaper - so I really don't want to p**s off the supplier as everyone else wanted considerably more. Cheapest was 175+VAT !
I did try a Cambier from a different supplier but that saw the car stalling upon acceleration and reduced the car's acceleration considerably.
I might check what its giving out by sticking pins in the connector's wiring when its running (trying to run) for both units against a volt meter.
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Can you get a code reader with live data on it? ...might even be in tech 2 territory.
Where are you in the world?
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Sunderland
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Ah... Nearest tech 2 on here would be Dtm in Nottingham. :(
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Would still suspect new maf if it runs ok if its disconnected ;)
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What you want is someone nearby with a healthy 3.0 V6 Omega, so that you can swap MAF sensors - they are esy to fit.
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Unplugging the MAF will make the ecu run in limp home mode and use default settings for all sorts of things, not onlyair flow. Just because it runs better without the MAF connected doesn't confirm that there is anything wrong with the MAF.
It is quite likely that one or more other things are wrong but not bad enough to bring up a useful fault code.
Check for intermittent electrical faults (fuel pump relay?) then get a reader that can read live values & check/reset long term trims.
When did you last change the fuel filter?
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Check the connection and condition of the engine temp sensor on the coolant bridge - the blue one with the 2 pin connector. not the one for the dash with the spade connector.
Causes all sorts of weird problems if the connections have corroded or the sensor has packed in. I have a good spare I can post to you if you want to test it.
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Of course, like most things on the V6 engine, the temp sensor is a pain to get into.
The 2 main adjustments the ECU makes to fuel and timing are for temperature and load.
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There was mention of the temp inputs to evo on the last thread too viper. :y
Plenum off and inlet out. Not too bad a job imo.
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Thanks for the help so far :y
The fuel filter was changes only two months back for a Bosch Filter.
The problem occurs upon starting. Today I managed to get the car to keep going and when the engine temp was hot it ran fine. Took it for a drive - fine. Stopped and re-started a number of times - fine. Then I left the car to cool down a little - re-start - problem is there again. Bad idle and no power at all to the accelerator. It will then stall. Sometimes it will manage to stay alive long enough for me to manage to floor the throttle and keep it going. Usually, throttle makes no difference. Again - it's as if the choke has not been pulled out :-\
I do not have a garage and to remove the top of the engine to replace a temp sensor is not a small job in this weather.
I have swapped the old Bosch MAF with the new and no difference. Except for my wallet! :'(
Trying to find a garage who can undertake live data checks. Halfords Autocentre perhaps?
Please keep the help coming :y
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Thanks for the help so far :y
The fuel filter was changes only two months back for a Bosch Filter.
The problem occurs upon starting. Today I managed to get the car to keep going and when the engine temp was hot it ran fine. Took it for a drive - fine. Stopped and re-started a number of times - fine. Then I left the car to cool down a little - re-start - problem is there again. Bad idle and no power at all to the accelerator. It will then stall. Sometimes it will manage to stay alive long enough for me to manage to floor the throttle and keep it going. Usually, throttle makes no difference. Again - it's as if the choke has not been pulled out :-\
I do not have a garage and to remove the top of the engine to replace a temp sensor is not a small job in this weather.
I have swapped the old Bosch MAF with the new and no difference. Except for my wallet! :'(
Trying to find a garage who can undertake live data checks. Halfords Autocentre perhaps?
Please keep the help coming :y
Classic symptoms of an incorrect temperature sensor reading.
Key members on this forum have genuine Vauxhall code readers (Tech2) and the knowledge to use them effectively. Chris asked previously where you are in case you are near one of those members.
Not much love on this forum for Halfords Autocentres. Diagnosing faults of this nature takes a bit of thought, any of the Kwikbodge style tyre and exhaust fitting centres rely on charging you to bolt new bits to the car. Your car may not need any new parts which scuppers their business model.
There are also some mobile mechanics on the forum that can come to you, don't know which ones have Tech2 though :-\
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So it is the Engine Temperature Sensor that may need replacing - not the Engine Coolant Sensor as per the kind 'How To' guide below:-
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=113765.0
Cheers :y
Andy
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Is this the one that needs replacing? The one with the orange circle around it?
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=113514.0
???
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If I remember correctly, the engine one has a plug on it, the temp gauge just has a crimp which slides onto the top :y
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Is this the one that needs replacing? The one with the orange circle around it?
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=113514.0
???
No, ecu temp sensor is the bluey green sonsor just to the right of the spade connector (temp gauge sensor) circled in orange :y
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Bigger pic of ECU temp sensor, blue green sensor on right.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vxq4h9dokjvn3nr/ecuTEMPsensor40%25.jpg?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/vxq4h9dokjvn3nr/ecuTEMPsensor40%25.jpg?dl=0)
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Many thanks :y
I am going to try to find someone tomorrow who can provide live data as to whether my MAF is working or not.
Wish me luck! :o
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Check the connection and condition of the engine temp sensor on the coolant bridge - the blue one with the 2 pin connector. not the one for the dash with the spade connector.
Causes all sorts of weird problems if the connections have corroded or the sensor has packed in. I have a good spare I can post to you if you want to test it.
As I said :) the blue one with the 2 pin connector - NOT the one for the dashboard which is the one with the spade connector.
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I have found an Independent garage with Tech2. Hopefully, he will be able to tell me if my MAF is working - but can Tech2 tell me if the engine temp sensor is at fault?
If the car does manage to resist stalling and gets me to the garage it will no doubt be hot. Will this have any impact on Tech2's ability to evaluate the engine temp sensor?
As always, I am at the mercy of the individual operating the Tech2. The telephone call was not reassuring so I have to be armed with as much knowledge as I can when I go in.
Cheers :)
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I have found an Independent garage with Tech2. Hopefully, he will be able to tell me if my MAF is working - but can Tech2 tell me if the engine temp sensor is at fault?
If the car does manage to resist stalling and gets me to the garage it will no doubt be hot. Will this have any impact on Tech2's ability to evaluate the engine temp sensor?
As always, I am at the mercy of the individual operating the Tech2. The telephone call was not reassuring so I have to be armed with as much knowledge as I can when I go in.
Cheers :)
The Tech 2 or indeed pretty much any live data / code reader will see what you want.
The engine temp sensor will show up on the live data menu as a separate item.
Both the engine and the gauge temp readings should be about the same.
I don't know how much this reading is going to cost you but wouldn't you be better off chucking some fuel in the car and driving to a member who has a reader and KNOWS what he it talking about ;)
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Not one input from any of the tech 2 owners here. ...?
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Sunderland was mentioned iirc, so Broccie is probably the nearest :-\
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Following a live diagnosis with Tech2, the garage has informed me that both my MAF's are working (old and new) and that the temperature sensor is also working.
The garage suggested it could be a blocked or poor spray pattern by a fuel injector at idle but could not suggest any other fault.
They erased all the fault codes and when I got home I carried out the 'paperclip test'. It showed only one fault - 19 Crank Shaft Sensor. (one of the codes erased by the garage was 31)
This was replaced only the other week with a Bosch part bought from the Vauxhall dealership.
If it was the Crank Shaft Sensor I would have thought the car would not start?
Again, the car always starts. It only develops difficulty idling and this results in no power when you apply the throttle. Leading to the car stalling.
At a complete loss!
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Following a live diagnosis with Tech2, the garage has informed me that both my MAF's are working (old and new) and that the temperature sensor is also working.
The garage suggested it could be a blocked or poor spray pattern by a fuel injector at idle but could not suggest any other fault.
They erased all the fault codes and when I got home I carried out the 'paperclip test'. It showed only one fault - 19 Crank Shaft Sensor. (one of the codes erased by the garage was 31)
This was replaced only the other week with a Bosch part bought from the Vauxhall dealership.
If it was the Crank Shaft Sensor I would have thought the car would not start?
Again, the car always starts. It only develops difficulty idling and this results in no power when you apply the throttle. Leading to the car stalling.
At a complete loss!
Your answer has arrived......you often see MAF fault codes thrown when the crank sensor is tired.
Fuel injector spray pattern is cobblers, demonstrates little more than a lack of understanding by those advising it as this would impact fuel trims and not throw MAF faults
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Crank sensor often causes starting difficulties. Then eventually fails altogether. It can also throw odd codes and no 19 itself. It can cause the car to stall while driving, rarely, or cause other oddness like starting second turn of the key, while always refusing to start on the first turn of the key.
Sadly faulty genuine crank sensors do happen as well.
I wonder is it worth checking the ends of the sensor for iron fillings first? Or just replace and be done.
Irritating fault though. You have my sympathies. If that helps at all ;D :y
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Following a live diagnosis with Tech2, the garage has informed me that both my MAF's are working (old and new) and that the temperature sensor is also working.
The garage suggested it could be a blocked or poor spray pattern by a fuel injector at idle but could not suggest any other fault.
They erased all the fault codes and when I got home I carried out the 'paperclip test'. It showed only one fault - 19 Crank Shaft Sensor. (one of the codes erased by the garage was 31)
This was replaced only the other week with a Bosch part bought from the Vauxhall dealership.
If it was the Crank Shaft Sensor I would have thought the car would not start?
Again, the car always starts. It only develops difficulty idling and this results in no power when you apply the throttle. Leading to the car stalling.
At a complete loss!
Have you tried unplugging the ECU from it's multipin connector & checking for corrosion and/or water ingress? Also the big circular plug beside the fuse box? sometimes the locking ring is loose and the plug can become partially detached.
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Vauxhall Dealership has said they will test the Crankshaft sensor at my expense of £98+vat. If the part is faulty - they will fit another at no cost. If they believe that it could be some other factor - they will charge me the £98+VAT.
Again - the car always starts. It becomes lumpy and difficult to idle. Then stalls. There is never any problem starting the car.
I doubt very much that the sensor is the issue.
Does unplugging the multi-pin from the ECU cause any problems? Erase anything? Obviously, I would not do so with the ignition on.
Thanks for all your kind efforts so far - each is greatly appreciated - thank you :D
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The crank sensor is the issue but the amount they are quoting is extortionate.
You need to make absolutely sure its the correct sensor as some are slightly different lengths and it has a big impact on the operation.
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Vauxhall Dealership has said they will test the Crankshaft sensor at my expense of £98+vat. If the part is faulty - they will fit another at no cost. If they believe that it could be some other factor - they will charge me the £98+VAT.
Again - the car always starts. It becomes lumpy and difficult to idle. Then stalls. There is never any problem starting the car.
I doubt very much that the sensor is the issue.
Does unplugging the multi-pin from the ECU cause any problems? Erase anything? Obviously, I would not do so with the ignition on.
Thanks for all your kind efforts so far - each is greatly appreciated - thank you :D
I don't know if there are any permanent/unswitched feeds to the ECU. If you want to be ultra safe you could disconnect the battery a few minutes before disconnecting the ECU.
You won't lose any important data in the ECU - It might have to re-learn the fuel trims (but given the issues you are having that may not be a bad thing).
Have a read of Debs guide to Crank Sensor Variants (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=96562.0)
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Vauxhall Dealership has said they will test the Crankshaft sensor at my expense of £98+vat. If the part is faulty - they will fit another at no cost. If they believe that it could be some other factor - they will charge me the £98+VAT.
Again - the car always starts. It becomes lumpy and difficult to idle. Then stalls. There is never any problem starting the car.
I doubt very much that the sensor is the issue.
Does unplugging the multi-pin from the ECU cause any problems? Erase anything? Obviously, I would not do so with the ignition on.
Thanks for all your kind efforts so far - each is greatly appreciated - thank you :D
I don't know if there are any permanent/unswitched feeds to the ECU. If you want to be ultra safe you could disconnect the battery a few minutes before disconnecting the ECU.
You won't lose any important data in the ECU - It might have to re-learn the fuel trims (but given the issues you are having that may not be a bad thing).
Have a read of Debs guide to Crank Sensor Variants (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=96562.0)
Engine is a 3.0. :y
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The crank sensor is the issue but the amount they are quoting is extortionate.
You need to make absolutely sure its the correct sensor as some are slightly different lengths and it has a big impact on the operation.
V, not wanting to sound patronising but, Mark has spoken, there a a few voices you can trust on here, and Mark is most certainly one of them. But neither he or I enjoy my tongue up his arris so I won't go on. But you do need to trust what he says.
If it was my car, I'd go directly to the dealer and buy a new sensor. No copies, no cheap Chinese shite or pattern sensors mind. New, genuine, correct part.
While I agree your symptoms are unusual, they are not uncommon to crank sensor faults. They can be sneaky little bastards sometimes those sensors.
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The crank sensor is the issue but the amount they are quoting is extortionate.
You need to make absolutely sure its the correct sensor as some are slightly different lengths and it has a big impact on the operation.
V, not wanting to sound patronising but, Mark has spoken, there a a few voices you can trust on here, and Mark is most certainly one of them. But neither he or I enjoy my tongue up his arris so I won't go on. But you do need to trust what he says.
If it was my car, I'd go directly to the dealer and buy a new sensor. No copies, no cheap Chinese shite or pattern sensors mind. New, genuine, correct part.
While I agree your symptoms are unusual, they are not uncommon to crank sensor faults. They can be sneaky little bastards sometimes those sensors.
Unless I have missed something V has already fitted a new genuine sensor bought from a VX dealer :-\
& the price the dealer wants to charge to test the sensor is about the same as buying a new sensor on Trade Club......
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As reported before, on 11Dec13 my 2.5 Omega petrol estate refused to start. I bought a cheap e-bay crank sensor (£25), fitted it, fault cured. 29 Dec13 car developed misfire, so I bought and fitted a genuine Vx crank sensor from Bellinger Grove, misfire persisted. I changed plugs and coil pack, fault cured. Early Jan14 engine stopped on a journey, would not restart. I rang wife to bring towbar and spare car. When she arrived the engine restarted, so I drove it home, recognising failing crank sensor sympton. I refitted cheap crank sensor, fault cured. I returned genuine crank sensor to Bellinger Grove, main dealer, demanding replacement or refund. After a battle I got it.
New genuine Vx crank sensors do fail.
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The crank sensor is the issue but the amount they are quoting is extortionate.
You need to make absolutely sure its the correct sensor as some are slightly different lengths and it has a big impact on the operation.
V, not wanting to sound patronising but, Mark has spoken, there a a few voices you can trust on here, and Mark is most certainly one of them. But neither he or I enjoy my tongue up his arris so I won't go on. But you do need to trust what he says.
If it was my car, I'd go directly to the dealer and buy a new sensor. No copies, no cheap Chinese shite or pattern sensors mind. New, genuine, correct part.
While I agree your symptoms are unusual, they are not uncommon to crank sensor faults. They can be sneaky little bastards sometimes those sensors.
Unless I have missed something V has already fitted a new genuine sensor bought from a VX dealer :-\
& the price the dealer wants to charge to test the sensor is about the same as buying a new sensor on Trade Club......
Andy, I had a brand new Vx crank sensor fail in around a month on my old Elite to the point where car totally refused to start. Vx solution re warranty - bring car to them (won't start and 11 miles away), and they'll test it - if faulty will replace foc, if not will charge for workshop time. Cheaper to buy a new sensor - when fitted cured mine and that one lasted ok.
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Just wondering how viper can guarantee acquiring the correct sensor. I mean is it safe to presume the correct one is currently fitted? And that EPC doesn't always help the parts guys narrow it down to one.
Given it's raised a fault I presume not. Might not be faulty just incorrect perhaps.
Not familiar with the 3.0 and 2.5 sensors being a 3.2 owner and all. The loom plug shape has to fit. That's all I know. (Or need to know, for a 3.2)
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The only test Vx can do is to read the fault codes.....if you have a code 19 then its simple.....beware thoguh as they might clear the code and then say 'its not come back' (in the 5 ms which we observed it).
However, be assured that a code 19, unlike a 31, is a very accurate indicator that the crank sensor is NFG
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Vauxhall Dealership has said they will test the Crankshaft sensor at my expense of £98+vat. If the part is faulty - they will fit another at no cost. If they believe that it could be some other factor - they will charge me the £98+VAT.
Again - the car always starts. It becomes lumpy and difficult to idle. Then stalls. There is never any problem starting the car.
I doubt very much that the sensor is the issue.
Does unplugging the multi-pin from the ECU cause any problems? Erase anything? Obviously, I would not do so with the ignition on.
Thanks for all your kind efforts so far - each is greatly appreciated - thank you :D
I do not understand how people make sensors that do not work reliably. A sensor consists of a coil, with lead and connector attached, potted in a plastic case. They must make millions of them. All modern carss depend upon them.
I suppose if the garage fitted the sensor, they can claim you are complaining under warranty, so they want to check that the sensor is faulty on your car. Trouble is the fault can be intermittent, occuring when hot.
In my case, described above, I had fitted the sensor myself to replace a good but cheap sensor. When the Vx sensor failed I could put back the cheap sensor and restore the car to good health. When I demanded a replacement from Vx dealer Bellinger Grove, they refused, saying they must refit the faulty sensor and test it on my car to make a warranty claim. I live 70 miles away from Grove, but pass their door every Friday. I did not want to hang around, so refused this offer, instead quoting the Sale of Goods Act. They grumpily exchanged my sensor for another.
I conclude that is financially to their advantage to behave this way. Can anyone explain how?
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They get to charge you summat for the time involved as part warranties only cover the part...
With crank sensors, that's money for old rope :-X
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The Bosch Crankshaft Sensor is Part No. 90540743 form the dealership.
I have been trying to narrow down things to the following:
1. The car always starts without any problem.
2. When cold the car idles fine - the ICV is recent and has been tested with another I have.
3. Car warms up and runs fine. No idle problems.
4. Once up to temperature I stop the car and re-start. No problem with idle. Fine many times.
5. Drive car over a longer distance and then stop for short while - 10 mins.
6. Car starts but idle is terrible. Car wants to stall.
7. No power to throttle. Foot hard to floor. Nothing - then suddenly kicks in. Struggles hold revs.
8. Full throttle application - which is difficult -appears to clear it.
9. Engine then runs and idles fine.
10. Turn engine off. Leave for a short while. Starts fine - Terrible idle as per 6 above.
11. Engine allowed to cool completely. Starts and idles fine.
Are these the symptoms of a crankshaft sensor?
I was not convinced that the Independent Garage that undertook the live data was fully competent.
Are we back to looking at the temperature sensor? The garage stated not.
Do I buy another ICV? This is getting expensive!
Help!!!! ::)
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If you need confirmation, do the paper clip test. Expect code 19, crank sensor. Ignore all other codes while a 19 is present. As 19 causes other erroneous codes.
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Although, sometimes code 19 is not present, yet the cs is still at fault. Like I said, sneaky little bastards these crank sensors.
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Further... DO NOT replace any other parts until cs replaced.
...IMO of course. :)
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Have let the car cool right down and it is worse than ever!
The car starts and then dies after a few seconds.
Full throttle will not save it.
I will not be able to change Crankshaft Sensor with not being able to get it on the ramps.
Paperclip Test reveals Fault Code 19 & 13. 13 being O2 sensor - but the car has just had new down pipes and new NGK Lamba Sensors in the last month!
This car is costing me a fortune. I will have to hire a car now too!
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What a nightmare!
It couldn't be the ECU, could it? I know they are very reliable on Omegas.
I had one fail on a Senator. Then I had two identical 3 litre 24 valvers, I swopped the ECUs, and cured the fault. You can't do that on Omegas without serious Tech2 input, I understand.
Has anyone heard of Omega ECU failure?
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Found a not too dis-similar saga on here and the problem was the rubber 0-rings sealing the breather box on the top of the engine. Two small o-rings.
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=54962.60
So I am going to have to go through all the breather system to ensure everything is spot-on.
The car will now only idle (very, very badly) for a few seconds before stalling.
My previous post which suggested it was fine when cold - but not when hot - has been proven wrong.
If I find the answer - and I prey that I do - I will post it.
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It is a great pity that you are unable to get to an OOF Tech2 reader, who would point you in the correct direction, and save you lots. :y :y :y
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Well, I don't know how much more evidence you need. Tbh.
Codes cleared, 19 returned, and is still showing on paper clip test.
Fault code 19 = faulty crank sensor.
That's not to say there aren't any other faults as well but you need to clear 19 by fixing the fault it signifies, before you can look at things like ICV or maf. You have a confirmed fault. Fix that fault. Then go from there.