Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Sir Tigger KC on 19 February 2015, 23:50:22
-
As in the Tupolev Tu-95 'Bear' bombers, and not Webbys eastern cousins! :)
So these 1950's turbo prop bombers have been popping up quite a lot recently and we dispatch a couple of Typhoons to escort them off the premises. :y
But are they any sort of threat? :-\ Should we be more worried? :-\ They seem to be regarded as a bit of a nuisance and that they're just sabre rattling, but could these flights have a more sinister mission? ::)
One thing that does worry me slightly, is that it was reported tonight that 2 'Bears' were 'spotted' off the coast of Cornwall. It seems extraordinary to me that we didn't spot these old leviathans until then. ::) I've no military or aviation knowledge/experience but I'd have thought that they would have been seen and tracked from the moment they entered international airspace if not before? ??? :-\
Maybe the RAF is so skint that they had to have a whip round in the mess for fuel, and by the time they caught up with the Ruskies they were off of Newquay! :o ;D Tally Ho!! ;D
PS: I've just seen critiscism of the RAF for intervening in the Russian Airforce's mission to 'regenerate' Camborne! :-X :D ;D
-
Apparently they have a nasty habit of flying around international airspace whilst randomly turning their ident beacons on and off :o
Been a few very close shaves over the years with them straying into commercial air routes...
-
Dosn't military radar pick them up regardless of whether they have their ident beacons on or off? ??? If they were on a serious bombing mission they'd hardly be broadcasting their location to all and sundrey... ::) :D
-
Dosn't military radar pick them up regardless of whether they have their ident beacons on or off? ??? If they were on a serious bombing mission they'd hardly be broadcasting their location to all and sundrey... ::) :D
Hence scrambling the Typhoons inspite of the Bears being in international airspace :y
-
we dispatch a couple of Typhoons to escort them off the premises international airspace. :y
But are they any sort of threat? :-\ Should we be more worried?
It seems extraordinary to me that we didn't spot these old leviathans until then. ::) I've no military or aviation knowledge/experience but I'd have thought that they would have been seen and tracked from the moment they entered international airspace if not before? ??? :-\
don't suppose they were doing but they can carry air launched "cruise" (mach 2!) missiles with 3 megaton warheads and a 300 mile range.
sure they were spotted on take-off and tracked but that doesn't make such a good story for either side.
-
The main reason for intercepting them is probably so the Typhoons can "paint" them with ADS-B so the commercial traffic is aware of them.
-
Dosn't military radar pick them up regardless of whether they have their ident beacons on or off? ??? If they were on a serious bombing mission they'd hardly be broadcasting their location to all and sundrey... ::) :D
Hence scrambling the Typhoons inspite of the Bears being in international airspace :y
Missing my point a bit Al, those 'Bears' must have skirted British airspace long before they got to Cornwall. It just seems late to intercept them. :-\
I'm sure that the Russians have more modern, faster and capable aircraft that they could use against us if they felt the need and if we can't spot them.... ::)
-
As an aside, I wonder how many times the Russians have to send fighters up to escort NATO bombers, with their ident beacons off, on "training missions" away from their "areas of interest". I don't suppose for one minute that the BBC gets to report those.
Boys with toys springs to mind.
-
Yes hopefully we're prodding them as much as they seem to be prodding us! :y
-
The main reason for intercepting them is probably so the Typhoons can "paint" them with ADS-B so the commercial traffic is aware of them.
During the QRA event on Wednesday, the Typhoons (Callsigns "G3P31" and "G3P32") did not have their Mode S enabled - and I've yet to see one giving full ADS-B even on routine training missions. They were Squawking Mode A/C though so should have been visible to civil ATC. The only publically known position for the Bears was 12 miles south of the Fastnet rock. The QRA Tanker (RAF Voyager ZZ333, callsign "0QZ68") was initially orbiting in ARA12 which is off the North Cornwall coast, before moving to ARA10W which is between Lands End and Exeter. If anyone saw anything from Cornwall, it would have been this tanker.
Most of the Twitter 'chatter' refers to an event earlier in the day, around 11:30. This was infact a USAF KC135 Tanker tail number 62-3551, callsign "QUID65" from RAF Mildenhall operating in ARA10W refueling a number of RAF Lakenheath based F-15's including "Animal 61" and "Custer 81" flights.
For years and years Russian bears have entered the north sea and been intercepted by Norwegian, German, Dutch, Danish, Swedish Belgian and UK QRA aircraft, plus USAF fighters based in Iceland. Pilots even used to be able to gain a "10 Bear" patch to wear once they had intercepted the required number of aircraft. After the fall of the Berlin wall, Russian flights decreased dramatically, but they are now on the up again. Incursions into the western approaches and English channel were uncommon, but not unknown.
Basically, as long as the Bears stay outside of Sovereign airspace (the 12nm limit), they are doing nothing 'illegal' and there is nothing we can do about it. The UK QRA responsibility is simply to escort them and ensure they don't enter the 12 mile limit. Yes they occasionally cross civilian airway routes and it causes disruption to civilian traffic - but the only thing that you can do about that is complain to the Russian ambassador - who will politely remind you that the planes stayed in international airspace and outside of your soverign airspace.
And yes - we and the Americans do the same to the Russians. There are nearly daily flights of UK and USAF RC135 flights along the Russian borders from UK bases.
-
Nothing to see here really ;)
We used to do the same to them daily / weekly basis.
Ask Shack how many times he just might have strayed a little close to the Soviet airspace around the baltic went for a jolly up north ;D
And don't even ask what the Nimrod R1's used to get up to :-X ;D
The yanks still do it to them most days ;)
These aircraft would have been tracked initially by the Swedish / Norwegian systems.
Probably shepherded out into the North Sea by Norwegian F16's and passed onto our lads somewhere off the Shetlands / Faroe islands north of Scotland.
Ivan even did a practice attack on Hull / Manchester a few years ago with a Backfire c/w As6 Kitchen ASM.
There Mr Backfire pilot was having a nice steady jolly south down the middle of the North sea when he decides to do a hard 90 deg turn west, drop down to low level and accelerate to "eh" above mach before turning back out to sea before he hit the 12 mile limit ;)
The ones we need to be scared about are first the tankers going out and disappearing over the north atlantic then the same for the Blackjacks / Backfires :(
That means they will be refilling there fuel tanks then coming in low down and fast for real :'(
-
Yes hopefully we're prodding them as much as they seem to be prodding us! :y
We haven't got the assets / balls anymore >:(
Nowdays, we just whine to Rupert Murdoch and the rest of the media "cos it ain't fair" ::)
Putin must be jerking himself off at all the attention the west is giving him ::)
I would say, get the yanks (because we haven't anything left) to send a few aircraft over the poles low and fast then pop up off his coastline (just to make a point like) but 1/. The yanks couldn't give a toss about Europe. We was always just a buffer between them and Ivan ................. and 2/. Obama hasn't got the balls too anyway >:(
-
Noticing the slightly PR-iffy statement made by a senior RAF chap - about how the RAF has been decimated, and how they wouldn't stand a chance against the Russian if they did want to invade/destroy us. It got me thinking.
1. It's all hot air; the Ruskies having a poke - or sabre-rattle, it's a bit of show, and nothing different from the 'pinging' that occurred (maybe/probably still does) with US/UK/USSR Nuclear Subs
2. Actually blatantly stating that the RAF is knackered is a massive no-no if that's the case - In terms of making us look like chumps and an easy target. However, it serves two purposes...
i Broadcasting to the world a most likely false message of 'under-endowment' works, tactically. Deceiving the Germans into thinking the RAF was weaker than it was/in a totally different place to its true location was a major factor in winning The Second World War.
ii Though it's all smoke and mirrors, and the Russians wouldn't actually believe any public message it does cause a major headache for the people who are sensitive to media/public opinion in their control - the MPs. From a RAF perspective they've probably had quite enough of seeing their Harrier, Nimrod MRA4, and god knows what else cut or scrapped. This public announcement gets under the General Populaces skin, and I'd call a bit of a final 'ruddy well stop cutting us, end of!' from the RAF.
3. Personally I can't think of a time when anyone could honestly say the RAF has been 'over strength', it's always under strength. Was in the Battle of Britain, all the way through the Cold War, Afghanistan, you name it. Possible nearest to a 'Golden Era' would be 50s/60s, with Nuclear deterrent, but I don't think anyone would realistically and wilfully go back to Mutually Assured Destruction in exchange for some, admittedly very very cool Vulcans / Victors / Valiants in the sky.
4. Being understrength against a massively outnumbering force has happened before, the British Armed Forces somewhat specialise in this. It's why the Royal Navy frequently bested the Yanks in various War Games, and how the then-ancient Vulcans were able to sweep merrily under the Americans 'impenetrable' defences in Red Flag War Games etc.. Anyone watch 'Zulu' recently? We're jolly good at that sort of War.
5. Political. The Russian people sit merrily, saying 'Look out mighty Bear bombers have penetrated the measly RAF RADAR, we are still a Superpower! Pass me a Vodka' while the British Public grumble at the state of the country (as we always do) and blame the Politicians (as we always do) and say ''ooh, weren't things better in the 40s with Churchill?'' (as we always do. I read a book, and apparently there was a World War going on then, but people seem to forget that bit, and remember Glenn Miller and slimmer women) and the MPs sit at home and think "ugh, a PR coup that makes us look bad, we'll have to promise something we have no intention of honouring to take their minds off it" (as they always do)
My waffle, there! :D Personally I say increase Military budget massively, start designing a new generation of Fighters / bombers or MRCAs and or VTOLs, ships, whatever all in this country, give a generation of people, apprentices, engineers, designers, welders, electricians etc jobs and hope. It helps the economy when people are in work, because they pay this thing called tax. Also we can sell things like trucks, ships, aircraft to other countries, who give us a thing called money in exchange. Give people something to be proud of. Defence has no budget, because when it fails a thing called War breaks out. Defence isn't the same as Warmongering, it's making people feel safer in their homes. Stop buying American pieces of cast-off junk, stop worrying about 'the deficit' which has always been there, and always will be, stop paying Europe millions and billions to dictate to us, invest in British Industry, and all the while the unseen Security Services are infiltrating Terrorist Cells, acting like a virus, slowly corrupting and breaking down the scum out there that think it's fine to warp people's minds in the name of religion and honour, to the point of murder. Then we can sleep safe in our homes, but also with our kids working at BAE Systems or training the next generation of Pilots, not with a Honours Degree in Design, a ton of Student Debt, and on minimum wage in an office, 7 years after graduating, like me :D :P ;D :D
Also well in agreement with Mr Tiger Gonads, it's all happening up there, but the truth is, we don't see the truth. There's a fair few layers of opaque glass that we're seeing things through. Bit of huff and puff, really :y
-
In the days when we had a airforce ..................... :(
Yes, I know its the Daily Mail but some cracking pictures non the less :y
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2960251/How-RAF-ready-face-Russians-Stunning-images-depths-Cold-War-surface-air-missiles-V-bombers-radar-stations-protecting-Britain.html
-
Nice shot of a Bedford S-Type bus in one of the pics. Back when we made things like Bedfords in this country, before someone called Thatcher cancelled the MoD's order for them made them buy Leylands, and then both companies went bust ::)
Also very proud to see three of the pics are taken in Lincolnshire, RAF Waddington and Scampton (of Dambusters fame) maybe it's natural for me to love the RAF, being a Lincolnshire lad, but please let someone in power realise that there's not such thing as 'painting a wall too well' or 'overengineering' or 'needlessly measuring twice' - sadly that's the mentality of the government - if you measure something twice, and the second time the measurement comes up the same, well, that second check of the ruler was a waste of time - perfect place to make cutbacks! Slightly short-sighted, I fear.
I know a guy who was in the RAF, No 2 squadron, worked on Hunters in the late 40s and early 50s, went over the world, actually touched an atomic bomb in Australia, I expect not many of us can claim to have done that. Lovely guy, I now own all his old kit, which I'll be wearing this summer at re-enactments and remembrance ceremonies :) He adored his time in the RAF, and speaky very warmly of it. As I said in my above post, perhaps that was the real 'Golden Age' if there was one. My god, to be alive then... :)
-
Nice shot of a Bedford S-Type bus in one of the pics. Back when we made things like Bedfords in this country, before someone called Thatcher cancelled the MoD's order for them made them buy Leylands, and then both companies went bust ::)
Also very proud to see three of the pics are taken in Lincolnshire, RAF Waddington and Scampton (of Dambusters fame) maybe it's natural for me to love the RAF, being a Lincolnshire lad, but please let someone in power realise that there's not such thing as 'painting a wall too well' or 'overengineering' or 'needlessly measuring twice' - sadly that's the mentality of the government - if you measure something twice, and the second time the measurement comes up the same, well, that second check of the ruler was a waste of time - perfect place to make cutbacks! Slightly short-sighted, I fear.
I know a guy who was in the RAF, No 2 squadron, worked on Hunters in the late 40s and early 50s, went over the world, actually touched an atomic bomb in Australia, I expect not many of us can claim to have done that. Lovely guy, I now own all his old kit, which I'll be wearing this summer at re-enactments and remembrance ceremonies :) He adored his time in the RAF, and speaky very warmly of it. As I said in my above post, perhaps that was the real 'Golden Age' if there was one. My god, to be alive then... :)
Lets just say that nights on "Q" out in Germany got very boring at times when you got sick of playing ukers and watching porn films :-X :-X
I was also detached to 17sqn Bruggan when one had a little mishap ;)
-
As in the Tupolev Tu-95 'Bear' bombers, and not Webbys eastern cousins! :)
So these 1950's turbo prop bombers have been popping up quite a lot recently and we dispatch a couple of Typhoons to escort them off the premises. :y
But are they any sort of threat? :-\ Should we be more worried? :-\ They seem to be regarded as a bit of a nuisance and that they're just sabre rattling, but could these flights have a more sinister mission? ::)
One thing that does worry me slightly, is that it was reported tonight that 2 'Bears' were 'spotted' off the coast of Cornwall. It seems extraordinary to me that we didn't spot these old leviathans until then. ::) I've no military or aviation knowledge/experience but I'd have thought that they would have been seen and tracked from the moment they entered international airspace if not before? ??? :-\
Maybe the RAF is so skint that they had to have a whip round in the mess for fuel, and by the time they caught up with the Ruskies they were off of Newquay! :o ;D Tally Ho!! ;D
PS: I've just seen critiscism of the RAF for intervening in the Russian Airforce's mission to 'regenerate' Camborne! :-X :D ;D
...and I thought it was ::) ;D
-
Yes, our armed forces have been run down since 1991 as a 'peace' dividend where Russia's was meant to have come all democratic and cuddly, except it hasn't worked out like that! :(
At least, at 2.4% of GDP we are still one of five countries spending over the NATO requirement of 2%. However, Putin's aggression and the violation of the Helsinki Accords means that the UK and the rest of Europe are going to have to do a strategic review and spend more money.
Probably, the worst major economy for underspending is Germany at 1.3% of GDP and due to a shortage of small arms, in a recent exercise some of their troops and armoured vehicles use black painted broomsticks to simulate guns, I kid you not. :o :o :o :o
The problem with this over cutting of defence budgets, is the numbers game of tanks, aircraft in 'operational service' is actually much lower than the quoted figures, due to mothballing and cannibalization to keep others running within budgets.
The Ukrainian army has been poor, the senior officers abysmal, with some caught working for Russia, but the Russian army has been little better apart from a few elite forces. Russia is using Ukraine as a proving ground for much of their latest equipment and the Ukrainian army with their 20 year old anti-tank weapons are generally damaging tanks rather than breaching the armour. Something that modern western anti-tank weapons don't have a problem doing. Even so, the war in East Ukraine has been more costly to Russia in terms of casualties already than Afghanistan with over 5,000 killed. There are over 4,000 new graves in Rostov in Chechnya and numerous small graveyards in Ukraine full of Russian mercenaries and troops along with 7 Russian mobile crematorium that can incinerate up to 56 bodies per day, but they haven't been able keep up. :o :o :o :o
If we continue to appease Putin we will find out sooner rather than later on how good our forces are against the Russians as Putin will overstep the mark or create a worse MH17, where we will have no choice but to react. The general consensus that this will probably happen in the Baltics, but could also very easily happy in the Balkans.
Putler has relied of a growing economy to keep the Moscow elite happening, while he was busy stealing an alleged $200bn, but with a faltering economy, he needs new distractions for the sheeple and nationalism, creating artificials enemies and wars does the job nicely.
With the very poor Western response to Ukraine, there is plenty of scope for this to turn into a more general war, which the West may get entangled in.
-
What's your view on our defence Mr Entwood ::) I hear increasingly that we wouldnt stand a chance if Russia started the war games on us :-\
-
What's your view on our defence Mr Entwood ::) I hear increasingly that we wouldnt stand a chance if Russia started the war games on us :-\
That's because you only read believe the Daily Mail... ::)
-
What's your view on our defence Mr Entwood ::) I hear increasingly that we wouldnt stand a chance if Russia started the war games on us :-\
That's because you only read believe the Daily Mail... ::)
Probably right though. ::)
When a strange submarine was spotted off the west coast of Scotland recently, we had to get the French and Yanks to look for it due to our limited anti submarine capabilities. :o :(
Lucky they didn't disband NATO as part of the 'peace dividend'.... ::)
-
Dosn't military radar pick them up regardless of whether they have their ident beacons on or off? ??? If they were on a serious bombing mission they'd hardly be broadcasting their location to all and sundrey... ::) :D
Hence scrambling the Typhoons inspite of the Bears being in international airspace :y
Missing my point a bit Al, those 'Bears' must have skirted British airspace long before they got to Cornwall. It just seems late to intercept them. :-\
I'm sure that the Russians have more modern, faster and capable aircraft that they could use against us if they felt the need and if we can't spot them.... ::)
TU160 was (is) a stunning looking machine. 8)
-
No slouch either... one of the fastest propeller aircraft ever made iirc...
-
No slouch either... one of the fastest propeller aircraft ever made iirc...
Yep, and the most powerful turboprop engines, too. 15,000 SHP each.
-
The ones we need to be scared about are first the tankers going out and disappearing over the north atlantic then the same for the Blackjacks / Backfires :(
That means they will be refilling there fuel tanks then coming in low down and fast for real :'(
Russian IL-78M tankers were involved in this weeks mission - at least 4 of them ::)
-
Missing my point a bit Al, those 'Bears' must have skirted British airspace long before they got to Cornwall. It just seems late to intercept them. :-\
The UK has 2 bases that stand QRA - QRA-N at Lossiemouth in Scotland (near Inverness), and QRA-S at Coningsby in Lincolnshire (near Boston). There is also a single tanker base - RAF Brize Norton, near Oxford. When QRA-N or QRA-S launch, they also (usually) launch the alert tanker from Brize (called TANSOR) so that it can get into position to refuel the QRA jets, and help keep them on station.
When the Ruskies leave their own airspace, they are usually first tracked and intercepted by Norwegian radar and interceptors (F-16's). As they approach UK airspace, they are handed off to UK air defence which decides whether to launch QRA-N. QQRA-N is responsible for the areas north of Scotland and Ireland. On this occasion, TANSOR launched from Brize at about 14:30, and headed north. I don't have any info as to whether QRA-N launched out of Lossie, but it's obvious that everyone was aware of the Bears approach by this time.
The Bears passed down the west of Ireland. Ireland is a neutral country, not a member of NATO, and RAF jets are not authorised to enter Irish airspace without diplomatic clearance. So if QRA-N was launched, they would have returned to base once the Bears entered Irish controlled airspace (Shannon ATC). The RAF would not attempt to follow the Bears down the west coast of Ireland.
TANSOR then tracked south over the Isle of Man (at 16:00) and went to ARA12 off the North Cornwall coast. QRA-S (which is responsible for UK defence of the areas to the south of Ireland) launched at about 16:25, and the 2 Typhoons headed out into the Bristol Channel and Western approaches. Shannon (Irish ATC) reported unidentified traffic south of the Fastnet Rock to several civilian airliners between 18:00 and 18:40. This will have been the Bears. QRA-S returned to Coningsby at around 19:15, so you can assume the Bears were on their way back up the west coast of Ireland by then.
TANSOR then tracked back north, and was orbiting over western Scotland by 19:50, and then tracked out over the north sea. The assumption is that it was waiting to see that the Bears didn't re-enter UK airspace on the way home. Again it isn't known if QRA-N launched for a second time. TANSOR finally started to head home at about 20:45, and landed back at Brize at about 21:20.
So from all that, it's apparent that the UK was fully aware of, and tracking the Russians from at least 14:30 until 20:45. They didn't just 'pop up' near Cornwall and catch us on the hop.
-
That's a good explanation. Thanks! :y
-
The ones we need to be scared about are first the tankers going out and disappearing over the north atlantic then the same for the Blackjacks / Backfires :(
That means they will be refilling there fuel tanks then coming in low down and fast for real :'(
Russian IL-78M tankers were involved in this weeks mission - at least 4 of them ::)
Oh they are stepping up on the "training" ain't they ;D
-
What's your view on our defence Mr Entwood ::) I hear increasingly that we wouldnt stand a chance if Russia started the war games on us :-\
That's because you only read believe the Daily Mail... ::)
Al. trust me on this ............ most of our aircraft are worn out due to over use and not enough TLC after Afghanistan and are not "war capable" due the shortage of spares and are sat in hangers :(
Can't comment on the Typhoon's readiness but if it is anything like that of the Tornado Gr4's then my guestimate is that only 25% could actually fight >:(
Tornado info comes from a old mate of mine who is on tonkas right now and left Coningsby last year :(
-
Do the Russians actually have that much genuinely serviceable stuff?
-
Do the Russians actually have that much genuinely serviceable stuff?
Well since the wall came down in 89, Mikhail Gorbachev retired and the western world decided the cold war was over, and all those capitalist pig companies ;D like Shell and BP went across there and showed Ivan how to make money out of oil and gas, they have over the last 20 years or so been slowly rebuilding with quality rather then quantity. Everything they tend to build nowdays tends to be a well developed package which is as good as anything we make and in some ways, better :( Only in the dark arts of electronic warfare are they maybe still behind a little but due to espionage (by themselves and there chinky friends) they are catching up very quickly ;)
I cant remember the numbers but have a look at what they have spent over the last 20 years.
The days of them getting the old Warsaw Pact countries to take the brunt of the battle has well and truly gone and they can really look after themselves :(
-
Ok - lets see how long this one takes to hit the papers. ZZ335 9KU66 airborne at 14:30 ;)