Omega Owners Forum

Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Danny on 07 July 2008, 16:02:26

Title: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Danny on 07 July 2008, 16:02:26
Didnt get home in time to visit my local citizens advice, they close at 4pm, so i shall be going tomorrow to find out how i should go about requesting my LPG be ripped out of my car and a full refund given

if this were to happen and they actually agreed to, i'm just as much worried they wont restore it back to its original state in a compitent way!
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: ians on 07 July 2008, 16:06:14
did you pay for it on credit card?
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 07 July 2008, 16:14:47
I would actually push to have it removed by an independant third party Installer.
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: tunnie on 07 July 2008, 16:15:43
what did i miss??  :-/

Thought i was running sweet Danny?

My 2 pence worth - I noticed in your Autotrader pics of the engine bay of your Elite, they tapped into the airbox oulet  :-/

First off, if this was an SGI install, why on earth did they do that?

Take it back, as mentioned if it was on credit card, talk to them!
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Kevin Wood on 07 July 2008, 16:16:50
Rather than let them rip it out with no concern I would tell them that you're not prepared to let them work on it and you'll give them the bits back in a box.

Either that or meet in the middle somewhere that gives you the kit cheap and then get it sorted by one of us.  :y

Kevin
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Danny on 07 July 2008, 16:42:26
paid cash

it was so close to running perfect a number of times since they refitted the injectors, but after a few days it started to misbehave and become lumpy and generally cack on gas (tunnie see http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1215268444)

re the link to the thread about lambdas i dont believe its anything to do with them as they looked fine on his computer readout, and as said in linked thread, they show no fault on petrol and the car is unbelievably good on petrol as it should be

re the airbox outlet, its not actually on it, its my night time photo talent (lack of) showing up! they routed the coolant feed forwards, around the airbox outlet and then back up to the vapouriser because they had more room to do that, now why they didnt just use a shorter pipe since the vapouriser is close enough to the coolant tank anyway i'll never know!!

and also they never did put a fresh coolant feed to the block where they removed it because they said "car runs on gas all the time when its warm so you shouldnt have the coolant feed there where it would be on petrol"

which means i cant run it on petrol for any length of time!!

i'd like to take part settlement and have you guys fix it up for me, but i need the car gone to make way for the corsa arriving around 18th july :(
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 07 July 2008, 16:52:32
If there were no warranty issues here I would love to look at this install for you Danny... I bet it's something really simple.
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: tunnie on 07 July 2008, 17:07:51
Danny,

I now understand more, thanks for the info  :y

Unfortunetley as James pointed out, there is going to be no warrently issues here, the 'kit' works fine, it was just fitted by monkeys.

You right its going to take a long time to get it sorted though the legal system.

So long, in my opinion you should forget this route.

Spend that time and effort getting it running right.

Please, please, please take James up on his offer!

If you lack garage space, then come Brackley and you can use my garage, and we will get James over here too and take a look at this! Its gone on far too long. Maybe with some beer tokens we can get Kevin up here too and it will be sorted once and for all. With James & Kevin you will not find better  :y
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: TheBoy on 07 July 2008, 17:09:39
Quote
Danny,

I now understand more, thanks for the info  :y

Unfortunetley as James pointed out, there is going to be no warrently issues here, then 'kit' works fine, it was just fitted by monkeys.

You right its going to take a long time to get it sorted though the legal system.

So long, in my opinion you should forget this route.

Spend that time and effort getting it running right.

Please, please, please take James up on his offer!

If you lack garage space, then come Brackley and you can use my garage, and we will get James over here too and take a look at this! Its gone on far too long. Maybe with some beer tokens we can get Kevin up here too and it will be sorted once and for all. With James & Kevin you will not find better  :y
I would suggest the timescales prohibit this - he needs to sell within 10days.
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Kevin Wood on 07 July 2008, 17:10:12
Quote
paid cash

it was so close to running perfect a number of times since they refitted the injectors, but after a few days it started to misbehave and become lumpy and generally cack on gas (tunnie see http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1215268444)

re the link to the thread about lambdas i dont believe its anything to do with them as they looked fine on his computer readout, and as said in linked thread, they show no fault on petrol and the car is unbelievably good on petrol as it should be

re the airbox outlet, its not actually on it, its my night time photo talent (lack of) showing up! they routed the coolant feed forwards, around the airbox outlet and then back up to the vapouriser because they had more room to do that, now why they didnt just use a shorter pipe since the vapouriser is close enough to the coolant tank anyway i'll never know!!

and also they never did put a fresh coolant feed to the block where they removed it because they said "car runs on gas all the time when its warm so you shouldnt have the coolant feed there where it would be on petrol"

which means i cant run it on petrol for any length of time!!

i'd like to take part settlement and have you guys fix it up for me, but i need the car gone to make way for the corsa arriving around 18th july :(


Do you mean to say that the coolant feed to the vapouriser is still connected to the throttle body pipe? If so, this won't get enough heat into the vapouriser. If the vapouriser starts to cool off when gas demand is high this will send the tuning of the system all over the place  as it is not able to supply sufficient gas. Ease off the load pedal and it'll warm up again and it'll run lovely. If this still hasn't been rectified I would be tempted to give it a try myself, mnaking sure I can revert things back to how they were if necessary.

Kevin
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: tunnie on 07 July 2008, 17:11:05
Quote
Quote
Danny,

I now understand more, thanks for the info  :y

Unfortunetley as James pointed out, there is going to be no warrently issues here, then 'kit' works fine, it was just fitted by monkeys.

You right its going to take a long time to get it sorted though the legal system.

So long, in my opinion you should forget this route.

Spend that time and effort getting it running right.

Please, please, please take James up on his offer!

If you lack garage space, then come Brackley and you can use my garage, and we will get James over here too and take a look at this! Its gone on far too long. Maybe with some beer tokens we can get Kevin up here too and it will be sorted once and for all. With James & Kevin you will not find better  :y
I would suggest the timescales prohibit this - he needs to sell within 10days.

Very good point, but compared to a refund via legal methods? Latter has no chance, talking months there.
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Danny on 07 July 2008, 17:13:08
with the original coolant feed "re-routed" through the lpg system instead of "added to", how safe would it be for me to drive down on petrol?

the car wont tolerate being driven on gas now

i actually have drive space now, parents had entire front garden ripped out and space put in for 4 cars, its now occupied by all 4 of our cars

not to mention finding a time that we're all available, my week off was last week, but it only went properly pear shaped on saturday :(

as for time, i can actually use money out of my savings account to buy the corsa so if i really really have to keep the omega longer than necessary to get it running perfect, i will do, you guys will make it worth it i'm sure

its whether i can get an agreement for a partial refund and taking the car elsewhere for rectification
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Kevin Wood on 07 July 2008, 17:20:45
Quote
with the original coolant feed "re-routed" through the lpg system instead of "added to", how safe would it be for me to drive down on petrol?

Do you mean with the coolant feed to the throttle bodies removed?

It makes no difference if it's on petrol or gas as the fuel is injected after the throttle bodies. Shows how much they know - thinking that it would be unnecessary on gas!

The coolant feed is there to prevent the throttles from icing up, which can happen in very humid conditions when there is a large pressure difference across the throttles (light load and cruising). This happens when the air passing through the throttles decreases in temperature to below zero and ice starts to form. Probably not cold enough for that to happen in our current weather, although entirely humid enough!

My only concern with trying to sort it is that without the cable and software to access the ECU we're limited in what we can do, and the moment you connect a laptop it'll be obvious that someone's been in there. I'd be happy to help out if I'm around and you decide to take that route though.

Kevin
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Danny on 07 July 2008, 17:31:53
correct, it now runs through the vaporiser instead of the throttle bodies

is it best to see if they'll agree to a part refund first so they never have to see me again, before i venture south?
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Danny on 07 July 2008, 18:24:10
does anyone want it for a reduced price? the way i'm feelin about it now i would rather wash my hands of it completely
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 07 July 2008, 20:23:14
Right then Danny...

This has gone on long enough! If it was me in your position I'd have driven it through their window by now.

Can you confirm the following mate because I can't be 100% based on the above:

*Where is the coolant feed for the vaporisor coming from, and where is it returning to?

I can't promise miracles but I would love to see this install.

If it's having problems driving any distance, I'll come to you, for the cost of fuel (LPG :D ) only, purely because I don't like being beaten by this kind of thing. We could arrange it so that if needs be, I can be in telephone contact with Kev in case we need an extra brain or confirmation on anything.

In order for this to be effective, we need the cable and the software. I think you should Demand this from the original installer even if it's only on a loan basis. It's the least they can do given the heartache you've had with this, if they can't sort out the problems they shouldn't take issue with a second pair of eyes looking it over...





Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Danny on 07 July 2008, 20:42:20
Quote
Right then Danny...

This has gone on long enough! If it was me in your position I'd have driven it through their window by now.

Can you confirm the following mate because I can't be 100% based on the above:

*Where is the coolant feed for the vaporisor coming from, and where is it returning to?

I can't promise miracles but I would love to see this install.

If it's having problems driving any distance, I'll come to you, for the cost of fuel (LPG :D ) only, purely because I don't like being beaten by this kind of thing. We could arrange it so that if needs be, I can be in telephone contact with Kev in case we need an extra brain or confirmation on anything.

In order for this to be effective, we need the cable and the software. I think you should Demand this from the original installer even if it's only on a loan basis. It's the least they can do given the heartache you've had with this, if they can't sort out the problems they shouldn't take issue with a second pair of eyes looking it over...


the coolant feed goes from the coolant tank to the vapouriser, then from the vapouriser to the engine on the right side looking from the front (cant move wires far enough away to see exactly where) then it returns through the radiator by the look of it

this is the thing though which i suspect you were aiming at(?), how long should it take for the vapouriser to get hot enough that i cant keep my finger on it?

felt the pipes that run from the coolant tank, they felt nice and toastie after a minute or so, as did the one coming away from the vaporiser to the engine block, also toastie, the evaporator.... cold
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 07 July 2008, 20:45:42
Quote
Quote
Right then Danny...

This has gone on long enough! If it was me in your position I'd have driven it through their window by now.

Can you confirm the following mate because I can't be 100% based on the above:

*Where is the coolant feed for the vaporisor coming from, and where is it returning to?

I can't promise miracles but I would love to see this install.

If it's having problems driving any distance, I'll come to you, for the cost of fuel (LPG :D ) only, purely because I don't like being beaten by this kind of thing. We could arrange it so that if needs be, I can be in telephone contact with Kev in case we need an extra brain or confirmation on anything.

In order for this to be effective, we need the cable and the software. I think you should Demand this from the original installer even if it's only on a loan basis. It's the least they can do given the heartache you've had with this, if they can't sort out the problems they shouldn't take issue with a second pair of eyes looking it over...


the coolant feed goes from the coolant tank to the vapouriser, then from the vapouriser to the engine on the right side looking from the front (cant move wires far enough away to see exactly where) then it returns through the radiator by the look of it

this is the thing though which i suspect you were aiming at(?), how long should it take for the vapouriser to get hot enough that i cant keep my finger on it?

felt the pipes that run from the coolant tank, they felt nice and toastie after a minute or so, as did the one coming away from the vaporiser to the engine block, also toastie, the evaporator.... cold

WHEN CAN I COME AND LOOK AT IT  >:(

 ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Danny on 07 July 2008, 20:52:13
are you free thursday?? do you have any access to an ecu lead?

i'm still going to go to citizens advice tomorrow and ask their opinion, do you recommend i ask the garage for a part refund in return for me never going back there again?
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 07 July 2008, 20:54:28
Alas not Thursday, how about the weekend?

I only have the lead for my stag kit, suspect yours will be much different... :(
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Martin_1962 on 07 July 2008, 20:58:40
Want to borrow my ROmano lead - there are only a few designs and most use AEB

That hot water feed is too cold - you need to plumb into the heater pipes, my evaporator is bloddy hot!
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 07 July 2008, 21:00:10
Quote
my evaporator is bloddy hot!

Yes please to the lead - I could collect it en route and call in for a cuppa - and show you my install.

Danny's will also be hot once I see what's going on with it!
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 07 July 2008, 21:00:52
Just to add - you could cook an egg on mine!
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Danny on 07 July 2008, 21:02:16
saturday after dinner time, not sure exactly when i'll be home from work but technically half 12 onwards??

this is the connector:

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x267/T8DPR/Pic135.jpg)

mine used to be hot, hence it used to run sweet!!!
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 07 July 2008, 21:05:04
PM sent. Hopefully we can do some replumbing and it'll be a god'un...
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Martin_1962 on 07 July 2008, 21:09:51
WHich day ?

May be CBSing
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Martin_1962 on 07 July 2008, 21:10:24
Looks like the same as my ROmano lead
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 07 July 2008, 21:10:35
Quote
WHich day ?

May be CBSing

we're looking at Saturday - it would be AM passing worcs..
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Martin_1962 on 07 July 2008, 21:26:53
Quote
Quote
WHich day ?

May be CBSing

we're looking at Saturday - it would be AM passing worcs..


May have to be silly early!
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 07 July 2008, 21:27:28
That may work fine :D
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 07 July 2008, 22:52:53
Danny PM recieved mate.

All being well, we should be somewhere near to finding out what's going on, on saturday. May need to leave at silly o clock to get there as it's a 400 mile round trip, but never mind, keeps me out of trouble ;D

Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Kevin Wood on 07 July 2008, 23:03:57
Alas I've really got to get some things done this weekend as I've been away on weekend jaunts and business trips for the last couple of weeks.  :'( Otherwise, I'd be along too.

Telephone support is no problem though.  :y

Kevin
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 08 July 2008, 09:46:32
By the sounds of things, I should be able to sort it - but it's good to know I can pick your brains if for any reason we get stuck :D
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: maria on 08 July 2008, 18:56:59
Danny -

(It's James, BTW!)

I am 99.9% sure I have a lead here that will work. Can I have a much clearer and closer pic of that connector please?
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Danny on 08 July 2008, 21:57:57
not been in all night matey but i'll get one tomorrow afternoon when i get home from work, will take a few angled shots for ya, getting a decent pic of it isn't easy :D
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 08 July 2008, 22:09:52
Quote
not been in all night matey but i'll get one tomorrow afternoon when i get home from work, will take a few angled shots for ya, getting a decent pic of it isn't easy :D

We need software too....
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Martin_1962 on 08 July 2008, 23:44:03
Quote
Quote
not been in all night matey but i'll get one tomorrow afternoon when i get home from work, will take a few angled shots for ya, getting a decent pic of it isn't easy :D

We need software too....


Is it OMVL - remember where you got it from with the knackered CD with the bust injector
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 09 July 2008, 00:32:14
Quote
Quote
Quote
not been in all night matey but i'll get one tomorrow afternoon when i get home from work, will take a few angled shots for ya, getting a decent pic of it isn't easy :D

We need software too....


Is it OMVL - remember where you got it from with the knackered CD with the bust injector

That's the thing, I'm not sure I do.

Fancy sending me a PM? ;)
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Martin_1962 on 09 July 2008, 12:19:48
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
not been in all night matey but i'll get one tomorrow afternoon when i get home from work, will take a few angled shots for ya, getting a decent pic of it isn't easy :D

We need software too....


Is it OMVL - remember where you got it from with the knackered CD with the bust injector

That's the thing, I'm not sure I do.

Fancy sending me a PM? ;)

You found it not me ;D

Was it on this site?

http://www.centralgaragecarcroft.co.uk/omvl.htm

Got some PDFs to email - what is your address?
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: tunnie on 09 July 2008, 14:13:53
glad to see its getting sorted :)
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Danny on 09 July 2008, 15:31:07
OMVL dream 21

this help is really appreciated, i'll have fuel reimbursement cash ready as well. i know its not guaranteed to fix it but every little helps!

had a phonecall from an interested potential buyer today, who also knows what's going on with it, he's gonna ring me back for an update at the weekend

if the car is running well and i get what i need for it, i will be a very happy man and in debt to you all!!

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x267/T8DPR/Pic142.jpg)
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 09 July 2008, 16:00:09
They plumbed the evaporator coolant feed into what is little more than the coolant system top-up pipe......you dont get much coolant flow through there!

Bunch of muppets!

Sounds very much like your evaporator is not hot enough!
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 09 July 2008, 16:19:49
Quote
They plumbed the evaporator coolant feed into what is little more than the coolant system top-up pipe......you dont get much coolant flow through there!

Bunch of muppets!

Sounds very much like your evaporator is not hot enough!

My first port of call mate.
I think I also have the software needed too ;)
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 09 July 2008, 16:21:23
Quote

if the car is running well and i get what i need for it, i will be a very happy man and in debt to you all!!


Can't see the IMG at work, I'll check at home later.

If we get it going I won't take anymore than fuel costs from you - we can send my Bill to the incompetent LPG fitters ;D ;D
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Martin_1962 on 09 July 2008, 16:40:34
Quote
They plumbed the evaporator coolant feed into what is little more than the coolant system top-up pipe......you dont get much coolant flow through there!

Bunch of muppets!

Sounds very much like your evaporator is not hot enough!


First place tried by the person I do not name ::)
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 09 July 2008, 17:05:08
Quote
Quote
They plumbed the evaporator coolant feed into what is little more than the coolant system top-up pipe......you dont get much coolant flow through there!

Bunch of muppets!

Sounds very much like your evaporator is not hot enough!


First place tried by the person I do not name ::)

And what was the result?
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Kevin Wood on 09 July 2008, 23:51:07
Quote
Quote
Quote
They plumbed the evaporator coolant feed into what is little more than the coolant system top-up pipe......you dont get much coolant flow through there!

Bunch of muppets!

Sounds very much like your evaporator is not hot enough!


First place tried by the person I do not name ::)

And what was the result?

Speaks for itself I guess.

Problem is, the evaporator can get warm to the touch with very little coolant flow through it - at idle. When under load it's boiling an awful lot of liquid, so it does actually have to extract a good bit of heat from the coolant to avoid freezing, or at least reduced output. First job is to plumb it into the heater circuit, although a look at the reducer temperature reading first would be fun.

Kevin
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Martin_1962 on 10 July 2008, 00:26:01
Quote
Quote
Quote
They plumbed the evaporator coolant feed into what is little more than the coolant system top-up pipe......you dont get much coolant flow through there!

Bunch of muppets!

Sounds very much like your evaporator is not hot enough!


First place tried by the person I do not name ::)

And what was the result?


THat was first, then the pipe along the front of the radiator then I said use the heater pipes - which he did under protest - and the passenger side heater never worked either
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Danny on 10 July 2008, 17:38:02
went out briefly in the car yesterday and the evaporator got warm, but not hot, so ran not very well

today though the evaporator stayed ice cold, if the plan is to do some re-plumbing, can you get away with using the existing piping?
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Martin_1962 on 10 July 2008, 18:34:54
Quote
went out briefly in the car yesterday and the evaporator got warm, but not hot, so ran not very well

today though the evaporator stayed ice cold, if the plan is to do some re-plumbing, can you get away with using the existing piping?

Sounds like the problem - will be worth doing
Title: Re: Wish me luck, though it may take a looooong time!!
Post by: Danny on 10 July 2008, 18:55:57
i really hope this is the only problem, especially since it was running practically spot on at one point for a few days (some time ago now though!!)

had a very negative response from the garage, tho they said they'd rip the kit out, they didnt comment when i said "would it be restored back to pre-lpg state?"

trading standards said i'd need to complain in writing and quote the sales of goods and service act because this might shake them into sorting it, however there is apparently 5 other cases taaking action so me being number 6 wont even worry him

trading standards wouldnt sympathise with the fact that i'm not prepared to let them carry on working on it, as if going back more than 20 times over a 4 month period wasn't enough!!!