Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: JamesV6CDX on 13 July 2008, 00:17:39
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As you all know by now Danny has had nothing but trouble with his "Pro" Gas conversion, and has never been able to so much as use his LPG conversion since it was installed.
After months of the installers not getting anywhere I had a look at it for him today.
The findings as to why it wasn't running on gas are as follows:
1) Coolant feed to the reducer was non existant, only just a trickle. What they had done, is take the tiny coolant pipe from the Nearside of the throttle body, bodge a rusty old union on there to connect it to a larger pipe, and run it to the reducer. There was then a pipe from the reducer, going into another cobbled up home-made adaptor, and then joined back onto the top of the header tank. Completely inadeqete and the reason why it wasn't happy under load and at high revs. To overcome this, I've ripped out all of the bodge pipes and re-connected the throttle body coolant feeds. Popped the scuttle off and have taken a feed directly from the coolant bridge for the evaporator, which flows through it, and returns back to the HBV. This way the evaporator will get consistent coolant regardless of heater controls. The result was an instant difference, a red hot evaporator! It's also a million times more tidy than the installers job, with coolant hose wrapped around the air inlet trunking.
2) The LPG filter was fitted the wrong way around. You may not think this would make a difference but, once put right, the idle was a million times smoother and is no longer hunting around and lurching like it was before.
3) Appalling wiring throughout.
- The lambda wires had just been cut, and not terminated, so were free to short.
- The wiring for the gas temp sensor was dodgey, (reporting -70 degrees at one point!)
- The wiring to RPM signal was appalling
- Wiring to the battry and 0v - again really, really shoddy, looked like schoolboy work. Resulting in an intermittent supply to the LPG ECU.
- The injector splice cables are again a huge mess and all over the place
- The gas injectors themselves are just hanging loose
4) The wrong type of evaporator and injectors were configured on the software (Thankfully my Stag lead worked).
Having done some quick repairs on the above, apart from a minor switching issue I'm looking at, the car is now running really nicely on LPG :)
Other faults found, were:
5) Manifold nozzles have been drilled in situ - you can see the swarf everywhere!
6) The evaporator is very insecure and has been mounted via a bracket connected to the BRAKE MASTER CYLINDER!
7) Gas switch inside the car very poorly fitted.
8) Rusty old gas unions used to join coolant pipes
9) Bare wires all over the shop.
10) components routed near EGR valve, won't last long there!
11) Pollen filter had been removed to make way for the gas ECU
12) Gas ECU insecure and hanging off it's cables..
13) Only 6mm feed pipe used for vaporisor, it really needs 8mm on an engine with this capacity.
In short, it looks like an ameteur DIY job at best, it's nothing like professional standards.
In a few hours it's gone from being a shambles to something that works, so that's good progress really.
Unfortunately couldn't finish it all off due to the sheer volume of work, but we are confident that another days tinkering and it'll be 100%.
It needs a day to properly solder and heatwrap the connections, do some continuety testing on suspect parts of the LPG loom, connect up the lambda's to see what they're doing and get the mapping spot on, and generally tidy up the install - it should be good as new, then :y
Must say, I much prefer the Stag 300 kit I've used compared to the OMVL21 fitted in this application. The Software is very very limited compared to the stag one, and components are not as good, IMO.
Hopefully all's well that ends well, pleased you're happy Danny :y
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Deary me! Not sure what to say really! ::)
Well done mate for doing such a good job at tidying someone elses mess!
Given all the faults above surely there is a 'slight' safety risk associated with a bad LPG install such as this!?! :o
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been following Danny's thread's and well done to you
:y :y :y :y :y :y :y :y :y :y :y :y :y
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Surly there must be a 'Body' that overseas and regulates gas instalations, they need to know about this. :(
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:o :o sounds like there were some serious safety issues with the install,these people need shutting/burning down. james i think your user name should be changed to oof superman.hear of a mig in trouble and whetever the distance, on the scene asap and get it sorted. people as helpful and commited as you are a very rare breed these days. (hope all the praise doesnt embarass you to much) :y
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I applaude you James, You're 1 in a million :y :y :y :y :y :y :) :) :) :) ;)
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I`ve been follwing Danny`s thread with growing concern; it`s what you imagine a cowboy job to be...but, would perhaps imagine those days are long gone: obviously NOT! >:(
Their work was an utter disgrace and it is great credit to you James, to have brought resolution for Danny where a bodge-it and bugger-off trader could/would not.
Danny, you surely must pursue a claim against the garage; both for monetary recompense and to (hopefully) raise the standards of their work for other customers.....this kind of rubbish installation/functionality nonsense is going to get LPG conversions a bad name!.....`certainly put me off. :o
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OMVL is OK but the injectors are expensive to service, (and can easliy go wrong if no filter used)
no excuse for the EGR closeness.
ECU is similar to mine - it will fit in the scuttle area with pollen filter, I made a plate to hold mine.
Drilling insitu is disgusting, mine couldn't have been on the pro install as he had to remove the plenum anyway.
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In short, it looks like an ameteur DIY job at best, it's nothing like professional standards.
Oi >:( I don't like the assumption of DIY = shoddy! ;D
Is yours shoddy - is mine shoddy?
It is a cowboy pro install! >:( :(
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Have you taken a list of what was wrong back to the cowboys for their education?
Yes I think there should be a body that regulates this as some so called pros are obviously completely and utterly useless!
Glad its going better for you now Danny and hats off as always to the man James :y
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Surly there must be a 'Body' that overseas and regulates gas instalations, they need to know about this. :(
Yes, there is, in theory - the LPGA.
Unfortunately their only interests are generating busines for, and collecting money from, their members. Policing of the quality of their work is non existant. >:(
Anyway, good to hear it's on the mend.
It makes me wonder why some "professionals" do such a shoddy job. There are obvious places to get a decent coolant feed, mount the vapouriser, ECU, etc. and they must know the problems they are creating for themselves by cutting corners.
Kevin
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Fair play for sorting it out!
You are a credit to the forum :y
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What a top man. with the kind of customer care that James has shown there should be a chain of JamesV6CDX's all around the country :y
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i'm still going to be speaking to trading standards but previously they just say "we can only investigate your case" which wouldnt matter too much because of 3rd party involvement
gonna print off james' list and send a copy to the garage, though i expect to hear nothing from them in return, Watchdog have been e-mailed aswell
James did you get something for your tea when you got in? ;D
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James did you get something for your tea when you got in? ;D
Ham and mustard sarnie on the M6 :y
TomTom was as useful as a chocolate teapot, and tried to send me to an LPG garage that required me to drive through a hedge to access :D
Had to go as far as Birmingham on petrol, can you believe every service station I tried on the M6 had no LPG!
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I am suprised the filter made so much difference to which way round it was fitted......
I changed the one on my veccyC.
I bought it from the vx dealer (rather expensive!!) and it had a direction of flow arrow stuck on it.
When I took the original filter off (they were identical) according to the sticky label on the new one......the original one was fitted the wrong way round (and it was still the original one Milbrook factory had fitted)
or the sticky label on the new one was incorrect.
However i fitted the new one according to the label....it made no difference to the problem it was having......it kept switching back to petrol.
So either the orig one was fitted the wrong way round or the one i fitted was round the wrong way :-/
The problem was actually the evapourator......low lpg pressure and wouldnt adjust.......new evapourator fixed the problem.
Well done James on sorting the lpg install out tho :y
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glad its sorted guys,what a mare. :-?
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In short, it looks like an ameteur DIY job at best, it's nothing like professional standards.
Oi >:( I don't like the assumption of DIY = shoddy! ;D
Is yours shoddy - is mine shoddy?
It is a cowboy pro install! >:( :(
Think your miss reading that Martin....its an Amateur DIY install, not a compitent DIY install...
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As you all know by now Danny has had nothing but trouble with his "Pro" Gas conversion, and has never been able to so much as use his LPG conversion since it was installed.
After months of the installers not getting anywhere I had a look at it for him today.
The findings as to why it wasn't running on gas are as follows:
1) Coolant feed to the reducer was non existant, only just a trickle. What they had done, is take the tiny coolant pipe from the Nearside of the throttle body, bodge a rusty old union on there to connect it to a larger pipe, and run it to the reducer. There was then a pipe from the reducer, going into another cobbled up home-made adaptor, and then joined back onto the top of the header tank. Completely inadeqete and the reason why it wasn't happy under load and at high revs. To overcome this, I've ripped out all of the bodge pipes and re-connected the throttle body coolant feeds. Popped the scuttle off and have taken a feed directly from the coolant bridge for the evaporator, which flows through it, and returns back to the HBV. This way the evaporator will get consistent coolant regardless of heater controls. The result was an instant difference, a red hot evaporator! It's also a million times more tidy than the installers job, with coolant hose wrapped around the air inlet trunking.
2) The LPG filter was fitted the wrong way around. You may not think this would make a difference but, once put right, the idle was a million times smoother and is no longer hunting around and lurching like it was before.
3) Appalling wiring throughout.
- The lambda wires had just been cut, and not terminated, so were free to short.
- The wiring for the gas temp sensor was dodgey, (reporting -70 degrees at one point!)
- The wiring to RPM signal was appalling
- Wiring to the battry and 0v - again really, really shoddy, looked like schoolboy work. Resulting in an intermittent supply to the LPG ECU.
- The injector splice cables are again a huge mess and all over the place
- The gas injectors themselves are just hanging loose
4) The wrong type of evaporator and injectors were configured on the software (Thankfully my Stag lead worked).
Having done some quick repairs on the above, apart from a minor switching issue I'm looking at, the car is now running really nicely on LPG :)
Other faults found, were:
5) Manifold nozzles have been drilled in situ - you can see the swarf everywhere!
6) The evaporator is very insecure and has been mounted via a bracket connected to the BRAKE MASTER CYLINDER!
7) Gas switch inside the car very poorly fitted.
8) Rusty old gas unions used to join coolant pipes
9) Bare wires all over the shop.
10) components routed near EGR valve, won't last long there!
11) Pollen filter had been removed to make way for the gas ECU
12) Gas ECU insecure and hanging off it's cables..
13) Only 6mm feed pipe used for vaporisor, it really needs 8mm on an engine with this capacity.
In short, it looks like an ameteur DIY job at best, it's nothing like professional standards.
In a few hours it's gone from being a shambles to something that works, so that's good progress really.
Unfortunately couldn't finish it all off due to the sheer volume of work, but we are confident that another days tinkering and it'll be 100%.
It needs a day to properly solder and heatwrap the connections, do some continuety testing on suspect parts of the LPG loom, connect up the lambda's to see what they're doing and get the mapping spot on, and generally tidy up the install - it should be good as new, then :y
Must say, I much prefer the Stag 300 kit I've used compared to the OMVL21 fitted in this application. The Software is very very limited compared to the stag one, and components are not as good, IMO.
Hopefully all's well that ends well, pleased you're happy Danny :y
Only a couple of niggles then. ;D ;D ;D
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In short, it looks like an ameteur DIY job at best, it's nothing like professional standards.
Oi >:( I don't like the assumption of DIY = shoddy! ;D
Is yours shoddy - is mine shoddy?
It is a cowboy pro install! >:( :(
Think your miss reading that Martin....its an Amateur DIY install, not a compitent DIY install...
I think with DIY the people who do it generally take more care, I haven't heard of any duff DIY ones yet
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have now reported the garage to the LPGA with the help of james' list of faults and my own experiences of the last 4 months
:y lets see what happens!!
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Hoping (probably uselessly, I'm afraid but miracles can happen) that they are forced to stop LPG installations.
Glad its been sorted now tho.
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there's light at the end of the tunnel! still has a couple of issues though but i'm coping with it
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have now reported the garage to the LPGA with the help of james' list of faults and my own experiences of the last 4 months
:y lets see what happens!!
I don't think they will care
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have now reported the garage to the LPGA with the help of james' list of faults and my own experiences of the last 4 months
:y lets see what happens!!
I don't think they will care
It will be interesting to see exactly what, if anything, they do do.
Kevin
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if the LPGA do take away their membership it doesn't stop them from installing, it just stops them from supplying 'approved' installations.
I would be speaking to trading standards. the job was shoddy and potentially dangerous, it was not fit for purpous and so you should have rights as a consumer to demand some sort of refund for at least the labour element.
the damaged that couldh ave been done to the car, you or people around you could have been great if this had suffered a real failure of some description