Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Migalot on 23 October 2015, 11:02:42
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From my other post, folks will know that I am looking at Jags etc. My concern is that most of the Jaguar range is now diesel (and I think the same can be said about many other manufacturers).
I know that modern diesels are very frugal with fuel and often as powerful, if not more so, than their petrol equivalents. Also, they have (thanks to muddled government thinking) much lower VED rates, especially for the larger engines.
However. I don't like them very much. I don't have any issues with CO2 (it's not toxic and plants love it), but I do have issues with diesel particulates and NO2 emissions. :(
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33254803 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33254803)
How do others stand on this issue?
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Diesel VS Petrol VS LPG. ;)
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LPG for me, fuel stations on my commute is not an issue.
Too many stories of DPF failures, flywheels, turbos and so failing on diesels for me. Unless you buy brand spankers, so less of problem. 70k miles examples could easily get issues.
I'll have same issue as you to replace my Omegas. If I lost the 2.2, I would strongly consider getting the 3.2 professionally gassed. Even at a cost £1.3k say, it makes more sense than £10k on a new ish diesel like a Merc CLS.
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diesel sales will start to fall soon. That's my view.
Not that the sales of something makes it directly equatable to quality of the product, or Blondie would sell more records this year than Lady Gaga.
But for me, nothing wrong with diesel. However, I can't see myself owning a newer-generation diesel unless it was on finance, and a company car etc, where I never had to lift the bonnet the whole time I had it. Let someone else worry about the servicing and allt he aggro.
Diesels stopped working for me as a viable alternative after you couldn't just stick old chip fat in them, and when the price of diesel doubled within a few short years to about the same as petrol. If I saw a shed of a 406, old merc, VW 1.9 etc diesel at the auction, then I'd have no issue owning it, running it into the ground, and chucking the odd few litres of tescos finest veg oil in. But you or anyone would never be doing that in their brand new Jag.
My TD Omega did about 22 to the gallon on average, my petrol V6 does 21 mpg. But petrol's now 1p cheaper, so the price for me per week difference is literally a pound or two.
New diesels are incredible to the gallon... but that said, so are modern petrols.
Potato, potarto... :)
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Petrol, petrol and petrol.
Who is known as a'dieselhead'? :y
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Petrol, petrol and petrol.
Who is known as a'dieselhead'? :y
Well...
Ten Ton Diesel Head are a death metal band from Michigan :D
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Problem with diesels is that you need a recent one to get anywhere near the driving experience of a petrol car and a significant improvement in economy. Diesels of the Omega era don't really give you either, but at least they were reliable.
That means a much bigger investment in the car in the first place, plus modern diesels have a lot of technology that's not that mature and therefore not that reliable.
Add to that the fact that modern diesels are simply not suitable for short journeys.
Political thinking is starting to sway against diesels given that air quality is not improving in cities despite each new euro emission target making the cars supposedly "cleaner" but, in addition, more of a faff to own and maintain. Then, we discover that they don't actually meet their emissions specs in practice anyway, and the some manufacturers have been deliberately avoiding meeting those targets. If it's a car you plan on keeping for a few years, you might wonder if there will be significant political disincentives to driving a diesel car soon. It's already starting in some european cities, after all.
Petrol car with LPG gives you the equivalent fuel savings with none of the reliability drawbacks if you're prepared to lose a bit of boot space and plan your refuelling stops better.
Newer generations of petrol engine are starting to strip away the advantages of a diesel anyway, but, again, that means a relatively expensive car as it'll have to be newish. That's likely to accelerate if manufacturers start to shift their development budgets to favour petrol.
.. or you could get a milk float. ::)
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Petrol, petrol and petrol.
Who is known as a'dieselhead'? :y
Well...
Ten Ton Diesel Head are a death metal band from Michigan :D
When I'm in the market for a bus, lorry or tractor I may revise my opinion of derv. :)
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Our Costco has started selling fuel - £1.03 for petrol, £1.04 Diesel :y
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Problem with diesels is that you need a recent one to get anywhere near the driving experience of a petrol car and a significant improvement in economy. Diesels of the Omega era don't really give you either, but at least they were reliable.
That means a much bigger investment in the car in the first place, plus modern diesels have a lot of technology that's not that mature and therefore not that reliable.
Add to that the fact that modern diesels are simply not suitable for short journeys.
Political thinking is starting to sway against diesels given that air quality is not improving in cities despite each new euro emission target making the cars supposedly "cleaner" but, in addition, more of a faff to own and maintain. Then, we discover that they don't actually meet their emissions specs in practice anyway, and the some manufacturers have been deliberately avoiding meeting those targets. If it's a car you plan on keeping for a few years, you might wonder if there will be significant political disincentives to driving a diesel car soon. It's already starting in some european cities, after all.
Petrol car with LPG gives you the equivalent fuel savings with none of the reliability drawbacks if you're prepared to lose a bit of boot space and plan your refuelling stops better.
Newer generations of petrol engine are starting to strip away the advantages of a diesel anyway, but, again, that means a relatively expensive car as it'll have to be newish. That's likely to accelerate if manufacturers start to shift their development budgets to favour petrol.
.. or you could get a milk float. ::)
Yes and yes.
Ten years ago diesels were set to save the planet from horrible nasty fumes.........and now. ::)
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But as Kev and others have pointed out, to get a nice diesel, needs a big investment. Mother and Father T have 2014/3 Merc E and Jag XFs
So big investments, along with big service costs. Could not DIY these modern ones so easily.
Around the £10k mark, gets diesels that are at least 5 years old. At least for nice RWD executive saloons.
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Extra charge for derv.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-3124279/Is-start-diesel-tax-Islington-charges-extra-96-today.html (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-3124279/Is-start-diesel-tax-Islington-charges-extra-96-today.html)
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Unless you are going to buy *brand new* I just don't see most diesels making sense atm.
Taking my car search as an example, I looked at 5 series BMW's - upto 5 yrs old (so new shape) a 535d would set me back about £27k, the petrol, about £21k. So even assuming the Diesel stays as reliable as the petrol, I have £6k to spend on petrol, assuming the petrol does 30 avg and the diesel 35, you'd have to do a lot of miles (about 245,000 actually) to make up the difference. However this assumes you keep the car indefinitely, otherwise you'd probably see some of the difference back when you sold it.
Which, brings me onto another aspect of new diesels, they are all (more so than the petrols I think) designed to be frugal on test rather than in the real world. So I would always look at something like Honest John's real mpg when doing your sums. A good example is the XF, 3.0D S books at 47mpg, actual returns, 34.5. The 5.0V8 books 25.4, returns 25.3. So, if you based your calculations on the book values, running the diesel for 25,000 miles would save you £2,340, based on actuals, £1,350.
Also, the government tide is already turning against diesels, the Advisory Fuel Rates (what company car drivers can get paid for fuel) are one example and from 2017 new cars are taxed by value not CO2 for the first 5 years of their life, meaning some diesels will probably cost more in tax than the petrols - due to their higher list.
For the sake of balance, the category where I do think Diesels work are the "just" pre-DPF, DMF & stupid injector era (c2002). Things like the 406, Mk3 mondeo TDDI, rover 45 etc. These gave reasonable comfort 40-50mpg and generally solid reliability.
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Wot 'e sed :y
Can't agree enough. :)
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Our Costco has started selling fuel - £1.03 for petrol, £1.04 Diesel :y
Has it? Almost worth the run to Oldham for a tank :y
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Has it? Almost worth the run to Oldham for a tank
Only if ya a member though, going to fill up before I go away :y :y :y
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Been filling with Tesco Ultimatum or whatever its called, 110.9, and has returned better power and mpg in tests than Shell and BP, but at maybe 5-10p cheaper per litre. Used to be on the Asda cheap n cheerful, but hearing it's probably the worst petrol you can buy switched. Haven't seen any appreciable/conclusive increase in fuel costs since the switch. :)
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Our Costco has started selling fuel - £1.03 for petrol, £1.04 Diesel :y
Has it? Almost worth the run to Oldham for a tank :y
Did not know CostCo did fuel, wonder if the Farnborough one or Sunbury will :)
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Price update @ Costco - Petrol £1.02 for their normal stuff, £1.06 for their premium. Diesel £1.04. Guy who was helping at the pump (as its all self service & you have to use ya member card at the pump + debit or Ames) says it's going down great so far. Very busy customer wise and the bog standard fuel IS better quality than most other stations due to the special additives. So far I'd tend to agree as since I've been using it I'm sure I'm getting more mpg. Might even run the Disco on premium when it's finished.
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Only if ya a member though, going to fill up before I go away :y :y :y
I am :y :y
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... Guy who was helping at the pump ....
It's been a few weeks since I last went ....... where have the pumps been installed?
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As you go around the little mini r a b to access the main car park it's in the far right hand corner as you look. There's nothing to advertise it from the road, no big price signs or anything.
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As you go around the little mini r a b to access the main car park it's in the far right hand corner as you look. There's nothing to advertise it from the road, no big price signs or anything.
Ta! :y :y
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Having seen the bills for a friends VW devil juice Touareg I came to the conclusion sometime ago that petrol + LPG was a much better 'real world' solution. Even if it is for a modern direct injection petrol, Prins do a high pressure LPG system.
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Been filling with Tesco Ultimatum or whatever its called, 110.9, and has returned better power and mpg in tests than Shell and BP, but at maybe 5-10p cheaper per litre. Used to be on the Asda cheap n cheerful, but hearing it's probably the worst petrol you can buy switched. Haven't seen any appreciable/conclusive increase in fuel costs since the switch. :)
No point in putting 99 RON fuel in the Omega, the ECU can`t take advantage of it as it isn`t designed to run on 99 RON, only the more modern ECU`s can utilise the benefits and give you a bit of extra power ;)
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As well as the power/price/mpg debate, some will prefer diesels (or petrol for that matter) due to the way the power is delivered. Horses for courses really.
Big petrol engine + LPG can be an attractive alternative if you are prepared to lose the space needed for the tank, *and* you have sufficient LPG stations near your home and common destinations (which is my issue, and why I probably won't LPG another car, as all my LPG outlets are at least a 20 mile round trip, which means by the time you've got there, queued, filled up, paid and returned, that's an hour lost, not to mention over a gallon of fuel. Hence I often run on petrol (which LPGers know is a sin punishable by eternity in hell)
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Im in exactly the same position. Local LPG garage shut down, and now no local supply. I also wont be bothering with LPG again.
My future plan is to have a big petrol engine car (minimum of 3 litre engine), which gets used for 2 -3 thousand miles p.a. of driving for pleasure. And a very economical car to use for commuting, local trips to shops etc.
I already have the economical car (a 25 year old diesel), just need to sort the big petrol car now. Hopefully next year.
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Im in exactly the same position. Local LPG garage shut down, and now no local supply. I also wont be bothering with LPG again.
My future plan is to have a big petrol engine car (minimum of 3 litre engine), which gets used for 2 -3 thousand miles p.a. of driving for pleasure. And a very economical car to use for commuting, local trips to shops etc.
I already have the economical car (a 25 year old diesel), just need to sort the big petrol car now. Hopefully next year.
Same here, exactly why I got the Skoda, on the m/way 60+mpg going to work & back & I've got the V8 Discovery to 'play with' in leisure time & bad weather. I keep toying with the idea of gassing the Disco but I'm undecided, the cost of doing it properly i.e. full sequential kit + tanks (smaller replacement petrol tank as well) is in the region of £1k. So using it part-time after that I'm not gonna recover my outlay. :-\ :-\ :-\
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This thread made me look again at what's out there, a new ish big diesel or petrol.... I could buy some things like this:
Jag XJ TDVi (again could get a Petrol cheaper, like XJ-R and LPG)
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201509086722859?onesearchad=used%2Cnearlynew%2Cnew&keywords=Sport&model=xj&fuel-type=diesel&make=jaguar&sort=default&radius=1500&page=2&postcode=tw89de&search-target=usedcars&logcode=p (http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201509086722859?onesearchad=used%2Cnearlynew%2Cnew&keywords=Sport&model=xj&fuel-type=diesel&make=jaguar&sort=default&radius=1500&page=2&postcode=tw89de&search-target=usedcars&logcode=p)
Merc CLS 320
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201510137783692?sort=default&page=2&onesearchad=used%2Cnearlynew%2Cnew&make=mercedes-benz&fuel-type=diesel&model=cls&postcode=tw89de&keywords=Sport&radius=1500&search-target=usedcars&logcode=p (http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201510137783692?sort=default&page=2&onesearchad=used%2Cnearlynew%2Cnew&make=mercedes-benz&fuel-type=diesel&model=cls&postcode=tw89de&keywords=Sport&radius=1500&search-target=usedcars&logcode=p)
Spending £8-10k ish on something new(ish) that's going to be smooth, comfy, refined and not tooo bad on fuel. Get around 35-40mpg out of them.
But issues are even at that young-ish age, issues like DPF failure, Turbo's, Injectors are all too common. Looking on forums, it's not uncommon to see a 4 figure bill for a turbo failure or DPF change.
Even basic work though, things like new rear shocks. That cost me £50 on the 2.2 which is cheap as chips, one thread I read on the CLS said the Air-Matic shocks for the CLS were "only a couple of hundred cheaper, than another Merc" - Just looking at the air-shocks on the XJ, they are £673 each on ECP? :o
"Arnott Air Spring Unit"
(http://www.supertweaks.com/image/cache/data/arnott/AS-2580_d-600x600.jpg)
Things will fail on these cars, so suspension changes will be needed. So replacing both rear shocks could be as much as £1.2k even DIY :o :o :o
Oil changes, basic pad changes on the rear all become super expensive. These electric handbrakes need computer-tools to sort rear brake pads.... for the Omega it costs about a tenner and takes 30 mins DIY.
They maybe cheap to buy, but not to run, Omega parts really are cheap as chips. Driving 3.2 yesterday, I thought, what is wrong with this? Nothing. Smooth, comfy, fairly quick, Bose sounds etc. If I was to LPG it, be just as good really as the above.
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... one thread I read on the CLS said the Air-Matic shocks for the CLS were "only a couple of hundred cheaper, than another Merc" - Just looking at the air-shocks on the XJ, they are £673 each on ECP? :o
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but not all Mercs have Airmatic ..... mine has, but the majority of those I looked at didn't. I think even doors are on the options list when it comes to Mercs. Not sure that my suspension legs are quite that much, but they're not far off ....... I just try not to think about it. ;D
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The Merc looks like good value for money apart from the fact that it runs on 'devil juice'.
I'd be tempted by another (petrol, obviously) provided it came with conventional suspension and not the prohibitively expensive airmatic. :y
A very imposing Merc that gets noticed.
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... one thread I read on the CLS said the Air-Matic shocks for the CLS were "only a couple of hundred cheaper, than another Merc" - Just looking at the air-shocks on the XJ, they are £673 each on ECP? :o
....
but not all Mercs have Airmatic ..... mine has, but the majority of those I looked at didn't. I think even doors are on the options list when it comes to Mercs. Not sure that my suspension legs are quite that much, but they're not far off ....... I just try not to think about it. ;D
What Andy B....eanz says. :y
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True....
But the Jags look to have air suspension. Even standard shocks are a couple of hundred quid each for the CLS.
I do like the CLS but I could get similar cost per mile if I LPG the 3.2.
What extra would CLS give me over the 3.2 if that was case? :-\
A better badge, newer plate. Not much else... :-\
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True....
But the Jags look to have air suspension. Even standard shocks are a couple of hundred quid each for the CLS.
I do like the CLS but I could get similar cost per mile if I LPG the 3.2.
What extra would CLS give me over the 3.2 if that was case? :-\
A better badge, newer plate. Not much else... :-\
Envious....... I hate wealthy Mercedes owners...... looks. :D ;D
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Also with other cars, be back to relying on garages and their diagnosis. Nothing beats here for a quick, honest and accurate ident on the issue.
Followed by links to cost effective parts :)
I'm probably going to end up LPGing the 3.2 and getting a Zafira Tourer for the family >:(
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Merc estates ALL have rear self levelling... Older ones were hydraulic ala Citroën, later ones are airsprung rear axles with conventional shocks.
Airmatic is a very different beast... Hydropneumatic units which regulate damping/spring/levelling/ride height.... No.springs or separate shocks...
This is why they are so expensive ;)
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Standard shocks for CLS not too bad, around £100 each side.
Looks like all XJs at my budget have air shocks, at silly prices :(
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This thread made me look again at what's out there, a new ish big diesel or petrol.... I could buy some things like this:
Jag XJ TDVi (again could get a Petrol cheaper, like XJ-R and LPG)
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201509086722859?onesearchad=used%2Cnearlynew%2Cnew&keywords=Sport&model=xj&fuel-type=diesel&make=jaguar&sort=default&radius=1500&page=2&postcode=tw89de&search-target=usedcars&logcode=p (http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201509086722859?onesearchad=used%2Cnearlynew%2Cnew&keywords=Sport&model=xj&fuel-type=diesel&make=jaguar&sort=default&radius=1500&page=2&postcode=tw89de&search-target=usedcars&logcode=p)
Merc CLS 320
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201510137783692?sort=default&page=2&onesearchad=used%2Cnearlynew%2Cnew&make=mercedes-benz&fuel-type=diesel&model=cls&postcode=tw89de&keywords=Sport&radius=1500&search-target=usedcars&logcode=p (http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201510137783692?sort=default&page=2&onesearchad=used%2Cnearlynew%2Cnew&make=mercedes-benz&fuel-type=diesel&model=cls&postcode=tw89de&keywords=Sport&radius=1500&search-target=usedcars&logcode=p)
Spending £8-10k ish on something new(ish) that's going to be smooth, comfy, refined and not tooo bad on fuel. Get around 35-40mpg out of them.
But issues are even at that young-ish age, issues like DPF failure, Turbo's, Injectors are all too common. Looking on forums, it's not uncommon to see a 4 figure bill for a turbo failure or DPF change.
Even basic work though, things like new rear shocks. That cost me £50 on the 2.2 which is cheap as chips, one thread I read on the CLS said the Air-Matic shocks for the CLS were "only a couple of hundred cheaper, than another Merc" - Just looking at the air-shocks on the XJ, they are £673 each on ECP? :o
"Arnott Air Spring Unit"
(http://www.supertweaks.com/image/cache/data/arnott/AS-2580_d-600x600.jpg)
Things will fail on these cars, so suspension changes will be needed. So replacing both rear shocks could be as much as £1.2k even DIY :o :o :o
Oil changes, basic pad changes on the rear all become super expensive. These electric handbrakes need computer-tools to sort rear brake pads.... for the Omega it costs about a tenner and takes 30 mins DIY.
They maybe cheap to buy, but not to run, Omega parts really are cheap as chips. Driving 3.2 yesterday, I thought, what is wrong with this? Nothing. Smooth, comfy, fairly quick, Bose sounds etc. If I was to LPG it, be just as good really as the above.
FYI changed rear discs and pads on my old X350 Jag - just leave electric parking brake off - no issues other than rear caliper pistons need winding back (pliers worked ok on mine). No need for "computer-tools", just need standard tool kit, and timewise DIY as quick as doing Omega rear pads. Oil changes no more difficult or expensive on Jag compared to Omega, particularly if you use GM 5w30 on TC ;)
As for concerns re X350 air springs, these are generally long lasting, and most owners never have an issue with them. Agreed if you are unlucky it will be costly! HTH :y
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Thanks Dbug, it does :y For some reason I thought you needed some gadgets to wind the calipers back for the hand brake.
As you know I do like the XJ after driving one a few years back, ultimate is wafting about, which is all I want for work.
The X35(8?) facelifted ones do appear to be coming down in value, thanks to the new shape ones. Glad to hear not too many issues with rear air shocks.
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I've said it many times before, Tunnie, only people with problems post them up on t'internet. If you listened to what people say about French cars, you'd never believe that a lot of them are perfectly fine. Look how many old Renaults are running about. Similarly, there will be loads of Jag and Merc owners who just drive their cars every day and don't worry about the faults posted online.
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Envious....... I hate wealthy Mercedes owners That reminds me.. I must pick up some more suppositories as the chalfonts are playing up...... looks. :D ;D
Fixed :y
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.... If you listened to what people say about French cars, .....
It's all true ..... they're cr4p ;D ;D
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Worth pointing out that those people who bitch about the reliability of their Merc/Jag/BMW/Volvo etc clearly can't afford to run one and only posses such a beast to impress themselves... The owners that DON'T post up are more likely not to actually care... If their car plays up repeatedly the invariably buy summat else or simply pay to get it fixed ::)
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Definitely notice better performance and economy using the Tesco Super unleaded and back-to-back emission tests showed better results. :y
A couple of us have bikes without an ECU and they runs better on super unleaded too, (and it's not the imagination). :)
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Been filling with Tesco Ultimatum or whatever its called, 110.9, and has returned better power and mpg in tests than Shell and BP, but at maybe 5-10p cheaper per litre. Used to be on the Asda cheap n cheerful, but hearing it's probably the worst petrol you can buy switched. Haven't seen any appreciable/conclusive increase in fuel costs since the switch. :)
No point in putting 99 RON fuel in the Omega, the ECU can`t take advantage of it as it isn`t designed to run on 99 RON, only the more modern ECU`s can utilise the benefits and give you a bit of extra power ;)
Oooh, now that's contrary to what I've heard elsewhere on OOF... anyone else have any experience of this? I understood that ECU would adapt anyway.. :-\ If not I'll be going back to bleeding Asda special 106p stuff, then, as I'm bleedin skint at the min!!! :D
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Been filling with Tesco Ultimatum or whatever its called, 110.9, and has returned better power and mpg in tests than Shell and BP, but at maybe 5-10p cheaper per litre. Used to be on the Asda cheap n cheerful, but hearing it's probably the worst petrol you can buy switched. Haven't seen any appreciable/conclusive increase in fuel costs since the switch. :)
No point in putting 99 RON fuel in the Omega, the ECU can`t take advantage of it as it isn`t designed to run on 99 RON, only the more modern ECU`s can utilise the benefits and give you a bit of extra power ;)
Oooh, now that's contrary to what I've heard elsewhere on OOF... anyone else have any experience of this? I understood that ECU would adapt anyway.. :-\ If not I'll be going back to bleeding Asda special 106p stuff, then, as I'm bleedin skint at the min!!! :D
There was a review in EVO magazine a few years ago when these fuels stated getting popular at the garages, they used a V10 M5 and a Golf GTi and did some rolling road tests, the M5 did quite well with around 25bhp more but the GTi barely showed any benefit. Can`t remember the third car they used but had no benefit at all as it wasn`t designed to run on 99 RON fuel.
The conclusion they drew was that it was down to the ECU being able to take advantage of the extra octane which the GTi couldn`t but bearing in mind that this will have been around 8-10 years ago when they did the test.
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Ok... interesting. Next question.... can the Omegas ECU be reprogrammed to take advantage of this.... [scratches chin]... :y
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Presumably because the Golf was tuned to perform.well in emissions tests... ::)
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Presumably because the Golf was tuned to perform.well in emissions tests... ::)
What are you suggesting .... :y
VW would never fake emissions tests.... :D
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The only sense in which an Omega ECU can "adapt" to fuel octane is that it will implement knock retard if the engine starts to detonate and this is picked up by the knock sensors.
What it doesn't do is offer any more ignition advance if fuel octane is better than the 95 octane for which it was designed. I've never seen the knock retard activating on any of the live data logs I've taken.
The likelihood is that, with an efficient combustion chamber design already, more ignition advance wouldn't give you more power anyway.
Put super unleaded in a very highly tuned engine with higher compression, or anything with forced induction, and it's a different story entirely.
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Ok... interesting. Next question.... can the Omegas ECU be reprogrammed to take advantage of this.... [scratches chin]... :y
Even if you got an extra 5bhp which is unlikely the only place you would really notice the difference is in the wallet :y
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Hmmm..... so the super fuel is a waste of time and money on an older engine, apart from the alleged added detergents, which a bottle of Wynns every once in a while is supposed to do, anyway. :(
I am sad.
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It's definitly in black and white Omega is suited to super unleaded and takes advantage of knock control.
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Oh dear, this is forums... some say the Omega doesn't have any ability to take advantage of super unleaded, some say it definitely does. ???
I have to admit I always thought it did. Where's CarGod MarksDTMCalib when you need him? :y :D
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How much difference can it make? We are talking about a two ton barge, not a fickin Ferrari.
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Don't let Webby hear you say that! :D He has, after much deliberation, managed to deduce his car, after many tens of thousands of miles, and over a decade use, is basically identical in its 0-60 time as the brochure claims, or within 0.1 of a second.... And he now, therefore considers that to be 'slightly' down on power! If he were Leonardo Da Vinci he'd be re-doing the eyelids on the Mona Lisa on his death bed, I swear! :)
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It's definitly in black and white Omega is suited to super unleaded and takes advantage of knock control.
It's actually set up to accept beyond standard super unleaded.
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Somebody must have the facts.
How far can the ECU advance the ignition timing?
Knock control (by definition) will retard the ignition timing until a 'safe' level of knock is detected.
Surely it can only advance/retard 'to-a-point'.
Without a re-map, I don't think the Omega (certainly the V6's, not sure about the 4pots) will make proper use from higher octane fuels.
My 4pot B235R has been remapped to take (minimum) 98RON fuel. It responds lovely to a dash of Tuloene, taking the RON upto ~101/102. The difference is night and day.
I just don't think the standard map for the Omega will do that!
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Personally I've never owned a diesel powered vehicle,but I suppose really it's a case of horses for courses.What suits the way I drive/use my car doesn't make it suitable for someone else with different expectations/usage needs,much like lpg,again personally I wouldn't have that fitted as apart from losing boot space/gaining an extra hole in the bodywork for the filler I would never recoup the cost of kit/installation as I don't do the mileage.
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I tow a lot so torque is what I'm after,sadly a petrol that can deliver what I want needs a tanker following it,hence my towcar is a heavy turbo diesel,my othertwo are petrol powered though and one is turfbo'd
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Somebody must have the facts.
How far can the ECU advance the ignition timing?
It doesn't. It retards it to protect the engine from poor fuel if it detects knock but won't advance it past whatever is mapped. I have never seen a datalog where knock retard has activated apart from when there's been a knock sensor issue.
Without a re-map, I don't think the Omega (certainly the V6's, not sure about the 4pots) will make proper use from higher octane fuels.
They are too mildly tuned for it to make much difference anyway, regardless of map. Also, with a "pent roof" combustion chamber, maximum power is unlikely to be at the threshold of knock anyway. They just don't need that much advance. Increase the compression to 11.5:1 or turbo/supercharge it and you might start to benefit.
My 4pot B235R has been remapped to take (minimum) 98RON fuel. It responds lovely to a dash of Tuloene, taking the RON upto ~101/102. The difference is night and day.
That's forced induction, so a completely different beast. ;)
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Somebody must have the facts.
How far can the ECU advance the ignition timing?
It doesn't. It retards it to protect the engine from poor fuel if it detects knock but won't advance it past whatever is mapped. I have never seen a datalog where knock retard has activated apart from when there's been a knock sensor issue.
Without a re-map, I don't think the Omega (certainly the V6's, not sure about the 4pots) will make proper use from higher octane fuels.
They are too mildly tuned for it to make much difference anyway, regardless of map. Also, with a "pent roof" combustion chamber, maximum power is unlikely to be at the threshold of knock anyway. They just don't need that much advance. Increase the compression to 11.5:1 or turbo/supercharge it and you might start to benefit.
My 4pot B235R has been remapped to take (minimum) 98RON fuel. It responds lovely to a dash of Tuloene, taking the RON upto ~101/102. The difference is night and day.
That's forced induction, so a completely different beast. ;)
So, we can conclusively say, Super Unleaded is a complete waste of time on the Omega from a performance POV? :-\ If it does nothing for performance, it can do nothing for economy? Right?
I'm sceptical about the cleaning benefits of the higher octane stuff, or providing longevity to the engine.
So, once and for all (FOR THE OMEGA). It's a waste of money, yes?
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in my old 2.5 V6 i did a test with super unleaded v unleaded. same stretch of motorway every day, maintaining constant speed using cruise (out of rush hour) i got about 10% better fuel economy on the trip computer.
off cruise i 'm sure I got better performance but that was hard to measure.
never gone back to unleaded as super price is always less than 10% more
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super unleaded is normally 98 octane. normal unleaded 95. owners manual page 216 says
"Octane requirement
unleaded 95
or unleaded 98 (2)
2) Knock control system automatically adjusts ignition timing according to type of fuel used (octane number)"
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Have to confess I think I've seen better economy. Now whether that's as direct as 'I get more miles per gallon from this super fuel' or more down to, without realising it I don't plant my foot as hard down in order to make the progress I wish, I can't say.
After months of leaving the trip as-is I decided to zero it before a long run. On the outward and return journey I got 30mpg, which has been steadily falling as I do 99% town driving, much, irritatingly short journeys where the engine just gets up to temp then I'm at work/home. I was returning 22mpg, dipping just under due to a few days of Heavy Foot Syndrome.
I'm now just at 24mpg, so let's see if she dips any further. If we return and settle out back at 22 then sadly that's making any economy benefits negligible. But it's been my belief that the super fuels are genuinely beneficial. Personally I'd say get Tesco only, however, as the cost vs benefits of Shell / BP don't outweigh the extra £.
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useful Tesco study "To assess whether Momentum99 delivers an improvement in fuel consumption across a range of popular used cars"
http://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/download/file.php?id=115834&sid=9db90aa87ef3171de4a1ec24d4ca8687 (http://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/download/file.php?id=115834&sid=9db90aa87ef3171de4a1ec24d4ca8687)
average uplift in mpg of 6.2% using super over tesco's standard petrol. some cars seeing 13% and 11% increase in mpg.
ethanol is another issue though, i have a suspicion tesco fuel has too much of it.
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Good read. I wish, for a scientific study they'd said what vehicles were used. (they give the model, but that doesn't narrow it down that much - Ford Fiesta - is that a 1978 or a 2005 Fiesta?) etc...
Just trying to guess, really which of those test cars would best represent the Omegas results. The study shows the TT actually got a fraction worse using Tesco, the mean being 6.2%, but the maximum found looks to be about 13%, on a Golf 1.6.
It could well be that all the cars on that list were made long after the Omega was.
Interestingly, this report seems to suggest otherwise, and disagree with my observations, calling it a waste of cash...
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-1642366/Super-fuels-a-waste-of-cash-for-most-cars.html (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-1642366/Super-fuels-a-waste-of-cash-for-most-cars.html)
read the article and they say there is a 'slight improvement' though they summarise in the title as calling it a 'waste of cash' which is typical misleading journalism, really. So what they're saying is that they do offer an improvement, however, only slight, in many cases. Ask an F1 chassis engineer what he's think to a 'slight' improvement in cornering and I know what he'd say. We already know that it's only ever a few %. Of course if you run a 75bhp Nova, then that's frankly irrelevant, if you drive a Veyron, then 3% is 36 bhp, and so on...
They also state that you could make more financial gains by altering your driving style. Well what a surprise! But saying that is only akin to 'don't invent seatbelts, just make people alter their driving style' Personally my philosophy is if we wanted to do things on the cheap, we wouldn't be driving Omegas! :)
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Ask an F1 chassis engineer what he's think to a 'slight' improvement in cornering and I know what he'd say.
Any improvement no matter how small is important in F1 as it is in any other motorsport but in a two tonne barge it`s really not that critical
We already know that it's only ever a few %. Of course if you run a 75bhp Nova, then that's frankly irrelevant, if you drive a Veyron, then 3% is 36 bhp, and so on...
Even 36 bhp wouldn`t be noticable in a Veyron :D
They also state that you could make more financial gains by altering your driving style. Well what a surprise! But saying that is only akin to 'don't invent seatbelts
You can`t really compare being a bit lighter on the throttle to not inventing the seat belt :-\
You can alter your driving style and get better returns than buying expensive fuels, it defeats the object of getting more mpg if you`re paying more.
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Hear what you're saying :) My point was that the article suggests instead of using a technological improvement, we should alter our habits instead. This, as with any study or experiment is adding a variable, which makes the very concept and point of the test a little moot. Ok, fair point, comparing seat belts to fuel octane may appear extreme, but whatever the example given, the point remains, ie:
My criticising of the article's construction was they were saying 'we investigate if abc gives more energy than xyz. We find, well, yes, it does; however, you could save using abc or xyz by using less in the first place.' Well, yes, quite right, but the question was not 'if we use less stuff in the first place will there be less stuff used?', the question was 'does abc give us more energy than xyz'
But, fair enough. I pose a further question, therefore. If we were her on OOF to unanimously agree that £ per mile, a 'super unleaded' in fact offers less bhp-per-£ than regular unleaded, given the actual higher quality of the super unleaded fuel, proven benefits to engine life etc, who is still willing to use it? Akin to buying organic vs cheaper import tomatoes for your pasta sauce...
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People probably alter their driving styles without even realising it when they put in a fuel they think will give them more mpg and then bingo all of a sudden they are getting more mpg but give it a few weeks when they settle in the old routine the mpg drops, a bit like the placebo effect, also why people think they get more power too ;)
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in my old 2.5 V6 i did a test with super unleaded v unleaded. same stretch of motorway every day, maintaining constant speed using cruise (out of rush hour) i got about 10% better fuel economy on the trip computer.
off cruise i 'm sure I got better performance but that was hard to measure.
never gone back to unleaded as super price is always less than 10% more
I'm an advocate of higher octane fuel, but 10%???????? You are off your rocker!
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Hmm... 40mpg to 44, which seems a old fair jump.. then again I'm returning (at present) 23.3 mpg, vs 22mpg since before the oil change, and about 21mpg when I was on Asda's finest. So that's 21 to 23.3 which is 2.3 mpg = 10%.
I openly admit there was an oil change in that, too. And it's possible my mpg will fall, still; though it's settled at 23.3 for the last few days. (mind, the extent my display is out of pixels, it could be 28.8, haha! :D)
As Gav says, the placebo effect is in there, as is overall driving style, and we've no way of truly, removing that. Literally all I can think is actually having an engine on a bench, or taking it round Millbrook on a specific set of test routes and speeds. (as was done in the above report) I just wish we'd had more technical data of the vehicles used. 'Ford Fiesta' really does cover a fair few vehicles! This effect of whether or not the V6 can or can't, and what other engines can - and can't - take advantage of the knock control does grate, as it's an issue.
I do, pretty regularly, fill up just once a week - but here's the catch.. I don't fill up by litres, I fill up by £s so when I was putting in £25 of derv in the Turbo Weasel, when I started putting in £25 of Asda cheap n cheerful, and then £25 of Tesco Optrex, that's the point, in theory, given the higher cost of the Tesco Superfuel, I am getting slightly less litres, and yet am covering about the same miles. That means, theoretically, more mpg. Perhaps any extra miles gained is offset by the extra cost, but nevertheless, the higher quality of fuel going in in the first place does give me a satisfied feeling.
Same feeling as knowing my wishbones ball joints are genuine Vx. The car doesn't perhaps appreciably drive any better, but I know I'm using quality. :)
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If you`re happy paying the extra and believe that you`re getting better mpg then go for it, personally I don`t think we see the benefit in these older cars so I just stick with Shell`s standard stuff, I`m really not bothered about how clean it keeps the insides of the engine as it has already done 146k.
I used to run Shell V-power in my Senator that I used to commute up to Catterick Garrison and didn`t notice any difference in mpg or power over the course of a few months so I went back to the cheap stuff and saved a few quid :y
Now if I had a newer car, say five years old then it would be a different story ;)
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Oh, totally. :)
I ran on Asda for several months without really noticing much, and at best any difference in only negligible. I think because I'm on this for the 'long haul' - I have no intention of ever getting rid of my Omega - that I try and get the best quality for long-term benefits where possible.
:)
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in my old 2.5 V6 i did a test with super unleaded v unleaded. same stretch of motorway every day, maintaining constant speed using cruise (out of rush hour) i got about 10% better fuel economy on the trip computer.
off cruise i 'm sure I got better performance but that was hard to measure.
never gone back to unleaded as super price is always less than 10% more
I'm an advocate of higher octane fuel, but 10%???????? You are off your rocker!
why don't you just try the test instead of spouting off with no experience? >:(
cruise control on the same stretch of motorway a few times is a way of removing the placebo effect. :)
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cruise control on the same stretch of motorway a few times is a way of removing the placebo effect. :)
A months worth of mixed driving would be a better test, besides I used to get around 4mpg more using my right foot over the cruise control on my Senator on the A1.
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Our Costco has started selling fuel - £1.03 for petrol, £1.04 Diesel :y
Just got my first tank of Costco fuel ...... not sure why it's taken me so long.
Petrol 98.?p/litre
Diseasal 99.9 p/litre ...... the cheapest Fuel of the Devil I've ever bought ...... but £76 for a full tank was nice ;D ;D
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Our Costco has started selling fuel - £1.03 for petrol, £1.04 Diesel :y
Just got my first tank of Costco fuel ...... not sure why it's taken me so long.
Petrol 98.?p/litre
Diseasal 99.9 p/litre ...... the cheapest Fuel of the Devil I've ever bought ...... but £76 for a full tank was nice ;D ;D
About what I pay for my Derv from BP/Shell (but that's with a fuel card) ;)
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...
(but that's with a fuel card) ;)
Is that like a Costco card? ;) ;)
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(but that's with a fuel card) ;)
Is that like a Costco card? ;) ;)
Shell card, BP card and UK Fuels card.
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None of the Costcos around here do fuel :(
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None of the Costcos around here do fuel :(
it's grim darn sarf ...... ;)
I'm sure they'll install them at all eventually :y
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The new one at Sunbury is bang on my commute, there is also a nice space next to it. Fingers crossed :) :y
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None of the Costcos around here do fuel :(
it's grim darn sarf ...... ;)
I'm sure they'll install them at all eventually :y
Costco at Avonmouth do fuel. :y Not really on Tunnie's commute though! ;D
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Our Costco has started selling fuel - £1.03 for petrol, £1.04 Diesel :y
Just got my first tank of Costco fuel ...... not sure why it's taken me so long.
Petrol 98.?p/litre
Diseasal 99.9 p/litre ...... the cheapest Fuel of the Devil I've ever bought ...... but £76 for a full tank was nice ;D ;D
About what I pay for my Derv from BP/Shell (but that's with a fuel card) ;)
All the petrol stations around here are charging that at the moment. How long for I don't know though!
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None of the Costcos around here do fuel :(
And unlikely to ever do LPG.
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Our Costco has started selling fuel - £1.03 for petrol, £1.04 Diesel :y
Just got my first tank of Costco fuel ...... not sure why it's taken me so long.
Petrol 98.?p/litre
Diseasal 99.9 p/litre ...... the cheapest Fuel of the Devil I've ever bought ...... but £76 for a full tank was nice ;D ;D
About what I pay for my Derv from BP/Shell (but that's with a fuel card) ;)
All the petrol stations around here are charging that at the moment. How long for I don't know though!
I think the local BP was 106 for petrol a couple of days back, but they are reknown mongrels who really look at fuel as a way of upselling overpriced bread, ready meals and wanky coffee.
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None of the Costcos around here do fuel :(
And unlikely to ever do LPG.
Thinking more petrol for bike/3.2 - if I use the bike I pass the Costco at Sunbury.
I remember paying mid 70's for LPG, so if petrol drops to mid 90s be very pleased. Means 3.2 will cost same to run as 2.2 did a couple of years ago :o
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Petrol station near me has been doing unleaded at 99.8p/L for a couple of weeks now.They also do lpg but as I don't use that I don't know how much at.
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I remember paying mid 70's for LPG, so if petrol drops to mid 90s be very pleased. Means 3.2 will cost same to run as 2.2 did a couple of years ago :o
DaFuq? I was annoyed at paying 55.8 at Motorway services the other day.
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My local Morrisons doing LPG at 47.7p at the mo, pity the Disco ain't up and running yet :( :( :(
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I remember paying mid 70's for LPG, so if petrol drops to mid 90s be very pleased. Means 3.2 will cost same to run as 2.2 did a couple of years ago :o
DaFuq? I was annoyed at paying 55.8 at Motorway services the other day.
Now that all the BP's within 20 miles of here have stopped selling LPG, all the Shell's are over 60p >:(. And aside from a Countrywide outfit 12 miles in the wrong direction, there is nothing else. So I'd be delighted to pay 55p ;D. Last night was 60.9p, and I thought I got away lightly.
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I remember paying mid 70's for LPG, so if petrol drops to mid 90s be very pleased. Means 3.2 will cost same to run as 2.2 did a couple of years ago :o
DaFuq? I was annoyed at paying 55.8 at Motorway services the other day.
A couple of years ago now, normal filling for me is 55.9
What I mean is I was used to 70 ish pence a litre for LPG, so 90 something for petrol is not too bad :)