Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: EMD on 29 October 2015, 11:43:18
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So i ordered a rear brake pad fitting kit for vented discs as i was told on here
that the GM kit i had would not fit . Vented kit came today and comparing both kits , the
GM ones that i was told were wrong have longer pins and bigger springs so which set is correct :-\
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If I've read it right you have purchased aftermarket and GM pins? As I understand it, and aftermarket jobbies are always and only the shorter, standard pins, and smaller spring. The GM ones can be, of course, the shorter, smaller caliper, or the longer pins.
If the aftermarkets and the GMs are the same length that's either ...
Vx have sold you the wrong ones, or
You've found a source aftermarket longer pins, brand new. :)
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Ones i ordered are aftermarket and have shorter pins and smaller springs but they are listed as for vented discs .
So have i been sent the wrong size kit :-\
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Ah, then you have followed in the doomed footsteps of so many poor OOFers before you...
plenty, if not most sites list the pins for vented discs, but they always send the wrong ones, the shorter. Their records are wrong, and you'll complain, they'll say something like 'we're terribly sorry for the mistake, we'll send you the right ones'. Then a day later you'll have a message back saying 'we don't have these longer ones you speak of in stock, our records show we have sent you the right ones. Our technical team suggest your car has been modified in some way' or words to that effect. You therefore may or may not get a refund.
Aftermarkets are always wrong, sadly. :(
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So i ordered a rear brake pad fitting kit for vented discs as i was told on here
that the GM kit i had would not fit . Vented kit came today and comparing both kits , the
GM ones that i was told were wrong have longer pins and bigger springs so which set is correct :-\
If they are this size they are for vented rear disc...
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/05omegav6/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20141223_215629_zpsm4ngm6wi.jpg)
Any other size and they are wrong and not vented.
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So what's wrong with the longer GM pins and bigger springs ?
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Going by those measurements the GM ones i have , the springs are right but my pins
measure 75cm :( As expected they sent the wrong kit >:(
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sadly its not dissimilar to the crank sensor issue - seems silly expensive for genuine GM, but aftermarket just does't do it. :(
Used ones are of course out there at breakers, but you're clearly trying to do a decent job and use brand new where possible. Used ones of course could be as bad/wose than your existing ones. And that's me talking, and I will use hand food if it's cheap! ;) :D
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Best get on the phone then and get my £8 back ::)
So only usable bits in the GM kit are the pads and springs .. maybe backing plates ::)
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So the GM kit you have has shorter pins, correct? if so, then yes, sadly it's back to Vx and get the longer pins. :)
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Ones i ordered are aftermarket and have shorter pins and smaller springs but they are listed as for vented discs .
So have i been sent the wrong size kit :-\
Not like that hasn't been covered to death ::)
See above for accuracy :y
Your springs are also wrong if you bought them via ebay for 9.99-14.99 and reasonably locally...
Only solution is to buy vented pins and springs from local dealer :y
There isn't a single pattern kit which actually fits the Omegas vented caliper.
The end.
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To save me dismantling my car, what are the diameters of the pins?
If the large diameter is a stock size then you could file the small end, and have two new pins in less time than you've spent reading this thread. For pennies. A more precise part would require a few seconds of lathe work, as would making the groove for the spring.
This sort of thing isn't difficult or complicated. Don't make it so!
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So the GM kit you have has shorter pins, correct? if so, then yes, sadly it's back to Vx and get the longer pins. :)
Yep shorter than in the pic , the kit was a GM kit listed for Carlton senator omega :-\
Ill know next time but its just the pins needed . Have we got part number for correct vented pins .
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If the Vauxhall dealer has screwed up, give them some stick... They have absolutely no excuse for supplying incorrect parts.
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GM springs measure the same as in the picture in this kit i originally had .
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right springs, wrong pins, then :)
kick the dealer's naughtybits off :)
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ECP i got the kit from and just rang them . They said thats the only kit they do ::) So told them to change the listings on the site as they dont fit >:(
Got money back but i have to travel 16 miles to get it when i return them to the local shop >:(
Anyone got the part number for the pins please so i can order from Stealers :)
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Be here somewhere...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=127907.msg1635081#msg1635081
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Just ordered them from stealers :
Pins £7.14 each
Springs £ 5.56 each
Only 8 pins available (in the whole world) on order minus mine so 4 left ::)
Will be ready to pick up saturday so not too long to wait :y
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Nick W how are you going to stop the pins from working out of the caliper you could drill a hole in the pin for a clip retainer.
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Nick W how are you going to stop the pins from working out of the caliper you could drill a hole in the pin for a clip retainer.
That's the traditional way, used in millions of Girling calipers.
The easiest way would be to peen the wide end, and make the narrow end a little longer so you could bend it over slightly. It isn't rocket science.
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There isn't a single pattern kit which actually fits the Omegas vented caliper.
The end.
Surely the Omega isn't the only car in the world to use this caliper ....... another make/model must use it ..... :-\ :-\
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There isn't a single pattern kit which actually fits the Omegas vented caliper.
The end.
Surely the Omega isn't the only car in the world to use this caliper ....... another make/model must use it ..... :-\ :-\
If you have vented rears, its VX or nothing nowdays.
If they are solid, give AllGerman a shout ;)
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If you have vented rears, its VX or nothing nowdays.
If they are solid, give AllGerman a shout ;)
I know as far as Vauxhall ...... but surely the rear calipers aren't unique? GM would surely have just picked calipers out of their parts bin :-\
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In essence, they are the standard caliper, but with a thicker bit of 'filler' in the middle, over the standard. Don't forget the vented rear discs were an addition to the range only on later models. So the decision to make an adapted caliper over standard (hence why the pads are the same) was clearly taken.
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In essence, they are the standard caliper, but with a thicker bit of 'filler' in the middle, over the standard. Don't forget the vented rear discs were an addition to the range only on later models. So the decision to make an adapted caliper over standard (hence why the pads are the same) was clearly taken.
I'm still dubious as to a few thousand (at the very most) cars having calipers that are unique to them.
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Pad compatibility suggests different Andy...
Vectra B is a possibility but the discs are thinner, ergo the calipers are also different...
Different being the thickness of the extra section... Will post a pic of said extra bit up later :y
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If you have vented rears, its VX or nothing nowdays.
If they are solid, give AllGerman a shout ;)
I know as far as Vauxhall ...... but surely the rear calipers aren't unique? GM would surely have just picked calipers out of their parts bin :-\
I had a nightmare situation about 12 months ago when I did mine.
I sent the details (cheers Al :)) of to 2 companies in the hope that they could come up with a "off the shelf" solution to the pins / springs problem.
Sadly after a couple of months. both firms came back to me with the same answer ........... Nothing matching the dimensions on any catalogue or kit. The nearest one got was a pins from a old Alfa Romero so it looks like its VX only or drill the holes out and split pin them in place >:(
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In essence, they are the standard caliper, but with a thicker bit of 'filler' in the middle, over the standard. Don't forget the vented rear discs were an addition to the range only on later models. So the decision to make an adapted caliper over standard (hence why the pads are the same) was clearly taken.
I'm still dubious as to a few thousand (at the very most) cars having calipers that are unique to them.
I know exaclty where you're coming from Andy, it doesn't seem to match up, in terms of cost v volumes etc. However, all I can summise/theorise is that the rear caliper is different, and the same, at the same time. When whoever it was (marketing) said 'we'd like to boast vented rear discs, that'd sell on the higher performance models', the discs were easy enough to make up, literally add a few mm thickness. You can literally imagine an engineers being given the task, where they have a caliper plonked on their desk, see the modular construction, split it in two, and simply add a thicker bit in the middle. Not dissimilar to the. Spec up longer pins, and slightly different springs, and you've actually made a whole 'new' larger caliper, whilst retaining probably 7/10 of the individual components of the original caliper. Outer & inner caliper casting, pads, hoses, bleed nipple, seals, boots, pistons, bolts are all the same. So from that way round, if there's no 'off the shelf' solution, that makes pretty good financial sense.
Also Vx/Opel spent some £180million facelifting the Omega, which was not much below what a mainstream Manufacturer could develop a whole new car for, back then. Now we know where a few quid of that went! :)
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If you have vented rears, its VX or nothing nowdays.
If they are solid, give AllGerman a shout ;)
I know as far as Vauxhall ...... but surely the rear calipers aren't unique? GM would surely have just picked calipers out of their parts bin :-\
I had a nightmare situation about 12 months ago when I did mine.
I sent the details (cheers Al :)) of to 2 companies in the hope that they could come up with a "off the shelf" solution to the pins / springs problem.
Sadly after a couple of months. both firms came back to me with the same answer ........... Nothing matching the dimensions on any catalogue or kit. The nearest one got was a pins from a old Alfa Romero so it looks like its VX only or drill the holes out and split pin them in place >:(
???
Hows that work then ? Surely if that was done the pads would not float ???
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Actually the vented calipers contain 42mm diameter pistons, but the principle stands...
Not including the pistons/seals/machining... the bare bones of what differentiates a vented caliper is...
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/05omegav6/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151030_124531_zpsgvzc4kqp.jpg) :y
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Hows that work then ? Surely if that was done the pads would not float ???
Replace the proper pin with a split pin ie make both holes the same the outer hole .... insert long split pin & bend the end over on the inside :-\
As above though, due to the longeity of the pins, I'd bite the bullet if I needed them & buy the proper pin :y
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Hows that work then ? Surely if that was done the pads would not float ???
Replace the proper pin with a split pin ie make both holes the same the outer hole .... insert long split pin & bend the end over on the inside :-\
As above though, due to the longeity of the pins, I'd bite the bullet if I needed them & buy the proper pin :y
What like these do...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-GRANADA-MK2-1977-1985-FRONT-BRAKE-PAD-PIN-KIT-FOR-VENTED-DISCS-BPF0983A-/331327611586?hash=item4d24aa22c2
Not sure they are quite long enough though, but you get the idea :y
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Hows that work then ? Surely if that was done the pads would not float ???
Replace the proper pin with a split pin ie make both holes the same the outer hole .... insert long split pin & bend the end over on the inside :-\
As above though, due to the longeity of the pins, I'd bite the bullet if I needed them & buy the proper pin :y
:y
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Hows that work then ? Surely if that was done the pads would not float ???
Replace the proper pin with a split pin ie make both holes the same the outer hole .... insert long split pin & bend the end over on the inside :-\
As above though, due to the longeity of the pins, I'd bite the bullet if I needed them & buy the proper pin :y
What like these do...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-GRANADA-MK2-1977-1985-FRONT-BRAKE-PAD-PIN-KIT-FOR-VENTED-DISCS-BPF0983A-/331327611586?hash=item4d24aa22c2
Not sure they are quite long enough though, but you get the idea :y
That would work :y :y
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Hmm i wonder if i should get those and get my money back from stealers ::)
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Hmm i wonder if i should get those and get my money back from stealers ::)
No, because they might not fit ::)
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Hmm i wonder if i should get those and get my money back from stealers ::)
No, because they might not fit ::)
If suitable pieces of rod was bought they could be knocked up easily ::) I wonder if i see an opening into production ::) I can get measurements from originals when they come and make a batch :D
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Actually the vented calipers contain 42mm diameter pistons, but the principle stands...
Not including the pistons/seals/machining... the bare bones of what differentiates a vented caliper is...
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/05omegav6/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151030_124531_zpsgvzc4kqp.jpg) :y
Ah, cheers Al. Nice to know. Also nice to see a picture showing the literal differences between the two.
That being the case, then, I wonder how do we stand regarding refurbing the rear calipers with new seals and boots? For the fronts this posed me no problem, I have found many people selling rubber repair kits for standard Omega rear calipers, but what about the larger 42mm pistons, I wonder... Presumably there'll be another 42mm pistn out there; having said that, that's exactly the logic EMD was thinking regarding the pins in the first place.
Any 'upgrade' to vented rear calipers seems to become less and less feasible with every post... hmmmm :-\
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Hmm i wonder if i should get those and get my money back from stealers ::)
No, because they might not fit ::)
If suitable pieces of rod was bought they could be knocked up easily ::) I wonder if i see an opening into production ::) I can get measurements from originals when they come and make a batch :D
I've been thinking a bit more about this and have come up with this, with all dimensions from Al's other post:
6mm rod is a standard size and cheap.
turning the short 5mm diameter is trivial.
We need some way of making a light press fit on the 'wide' end, which on the original part is a sprung clip. Making that is going to be a pain. An R-clip in a crossdrilled hole will work, but isn't much easier. A nice deep knurl will give the same effect, as it will increase the diameter a bit and is easy to do. Some experimenting might be required, but it can't be critical as the sprung clip isn't going to be a particularly precise fit.
5minutes work on the lathe should produce a prototype, which I might try later today.
I can't see any reason why 4 pins should cost more than a tenner posted to anyone.
I've previously mentioned that the pins are easy, and I hope this post shows why. Anyone who has these calipers should be more concerned about the springs, as they are going to be much more difficult to reproduce.
And Al's latest picture shows that the wider vented caliper is produced in the traditional way with spacers and longer bolts in the original, non-vented casting. I wouldn't be worried at all about reconditioning those, as 42mm seals are going to be a standard size. Pistons are easily made from stainless bar, and any necessary alteration to the seal grooves can be accomodated in the process. I've a friend who made all 16 caliper pistons for his NSX calipers from a £35 length of stainless bar. He wasn't going to pay the £150 that Honda wanted for each psiton!
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Hell, you could cross drill the rod at both ends for the R clips... possibly quicker and easier than flaring it :-\
Best to keep the narrowing on the inboard end, if only to provide a consistent position :y
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Hell, you could cross drill the rod at both ends for the R clips... possibly quicker and easier than flaring it :-\
Best to keep the narrowing on the inboard end, if only to provide a consistent position :y
Flaring the end of a 6mm rod is just a matter of hitting it end-on with a hammer. Cross-drilling it is a fiddly process, requiring centering the spindle, putting a flat for the spotting drill(done with a file, but it's still another operation), then drilling through and finally deburring both ends of the hole. We're talking a pretty small hole too, I wouldn't want it to be any bigger than 2mm. Doing all that twice per pin would make a professional charge a lot more! And you'd need to source the clips.
My suggestion of knurling the wide end is to retain the entire pin in a similar manner to the spring clip, and be quick and easy to do. Which it is when the knurling tool is in a quick-change toolholder.
Narrowing the inboard end is vital. I should have written that it is a trivial operation.
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For those that dont know or didnt know like me , the brake pad pins number for vented rear discs is : GM 9195055
Just picked the full set up . Wallet feels a lot lighter now ::)
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I had a go at this yesterday.
I had to use silver steel as it was the only 6mm stock I have. As expected, less than 5minutes work produced a respectable pin. But silver steel is quite hard, and the knurl only increased the diameter by 0.25mm which isn't enough. Mild steel deforms more than this, so I still think it's the way to go.
A 2m length of 6mm rod costs £3.50 from B&Q; better quality is likely to be cheaper from a proper supplier. But even at that price, it would make enough pins for five cars.
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I had a go at this yesterday.
I had to use silver steel as it was the only 6mm stock I have. As expected, less than 5minutes work produced a respectable pin. But silver steel is quite hard, and the knurl only increased the diameter by 0.25mm which isn't enough. Mild steel deforms more than this, so I still think it's the way to go.
A 2m length of 6mm rod costs £3.50 from B&Q; better quality is likely to be cheaper from a proper supplier. But even at that price, it would make enough pins for five cars.
I think this is a great idea considering the problems on getting hold of them,And the stupid price main dealer charged EMD :y
Nice one Nick W :y
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If you have vented rears, its VX or nothing nowdays.
If they are solid, give AllGerman a shout ;)
I know as far as Vauxhall ...... but surely the rear calipers aren't unique? GM would surely have just picked calipers out of their parts bin :-\
I had a nightmare situation about 12 months ago when I did mine.
I sent the details (cheers Al :)) of to 2 companies in the hope that they could come up with a "off the shelf" solution to the pins / springs problem.
Sadly after a couple of months. both firms came back to me with the same answer ........... Nothing matching the dimensions on any catalogue or kit. The nearest one got was a pins from a old Alfa Romero so it looks like its VX only or drill the holes out and split pin them in place >:(
Seem to remember helping a neighbour a few years back with his old Merc front brakes.
Front vented disc & long old pins. similar setup :-\ but can`t remember the model of car now.
Something like this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-Front-Brake-Caliper-Pad-Retaining-Dowel-Pin-A0009914060-/291246317256?hash=item43cfa21ec8:g:bAUAAOSwGvhUG0TV (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-Front-Brake-Caliper-Pad-Retaining-Dowel-Pin-A0009914060-/291246317256?hash=item43cfa21ec8:g:bAUAAOSwGvhUG0TV)