Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: polilara on 27 December 2015, 09:03:41
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Yesterday when engine was hot I realized that the idling became bad. It stays first constant around 600 rpm and then suddenly drops for one second below 500 rpm and shakes. Then come back to 600 rpm. It happens perhaps after each ten second period. I tried to keep rpm in around 1000 rpm with accelerator pedal and gear in neutral. Same dropping happens there. In 2000 rpm I did not find this effect. Engine behaves normally when driving and accelerates well without any problems. Breathing system cleaned some weeks ago - should thous be OK.
I remember this case have been discussed here but could not find it. What controls the idling in this engine?
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Sounds like missfire. Get the codes and report back.
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If you have facility, what are trims doing?
Also, look for any signs of airleak in the intake and vacuums.
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Thanks for quick replies, I have quite good facilities like new version of "My Naff Code Reader" to see different things key programming and perhaps also live data. So I will check the codes but please tell me what are the the trims?
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Hello
According to "My Naff Code Reader" no codes. Please inform what are the "trims" that TheBoy asked to check. I check the leaks soon.
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Hello
According to "My Naff Code Reader" no codes. Please inform what are the "trims" that TheBoy asked to check. I check the leaks soon.
Pedal trick it and report back :y
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Hello
No codes with pedal trick. Just continuous blinking. What are the Trims?
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Hello
No codes with pedal trick. Just continuous blinking. What are the Trims?
Fuel trims. The ECU learns from the lambda sensors. If there is a fault with any number of things that wouldn't normally cause a fault code you can often tell by the fuel trims being unusually high or low.
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STFT and LTFT. Should be 2 of each.
Sounds like an air leak... Any recent work?
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Thanks for info. I continue tomorrow with air leaks and check that I did not destroy/forget to tighten something when changing thermostat, cam covers, etc. a couple of weeks ago. Report then.
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Recent Work:
1. Bought spray Start Pilot/Quick Start. Engine was hot and idling. Sprayed everywhere in inlet side, to all hoses, joints, also those small ones controlling various things, even below plenum. No changes in rpm except this "normal bad idling" case. Could think no air leaks.
2. Put D on in gear box and hand brake on as well. With accelerator pedal I tried to keep revolution in 1000 rpm. This took 1-2 minutes. Car was not moving. Engine was shaking/rattling and rpm was changing almost every second. No engine fault lit went on.
3. I have last four weeks drove only exceptionally short and slow trips, only 5-10 km/time, with cold engine etc. I went to highway and put gear No. 2 on and drove 100 km/h (60 mph) a distance about 10 km (6 miles). Revolution was 5000 rpm all the time and engine was running perfectly. After that idling normally.
4. Put my tester on. Found codes 0300 and 0304, yesterday they were not present, so random general misfire and misfire in cyl 4. Perhaps they came due to test No. 2. I cleared the codes.
5. I started the engine. Found that these "Short Time Trims" were changing in banks 1 and 2 in a similar way from minus 1% to plus 2%. Long term was -1% in both. Mixture changes from "Rich" to "Lean" in a similar way everywhere. I found that I really can read "everything" alive. Data of all four sensors (two/bank), their heating on/off many other things which I did not learn what they are... I stopped the engine, no fault codes found.
Could this all be just deposit in spark plugs due to short trips (item 3). I have 220000 km behind and this engine is a morning (blue) smoker. I do not know the real oil consumption as crank back oil seal is leaking. I found also different live data form ignition side which I could report if needed. Found also that I can record the data for later evaluation if needed.
What next? Just enjoy life...
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Code 0304 is specific enough to check number 4 cylinder. It's always best to consider ignition first for this sort of thing and the spark plug is top of the list. Most plug faults are obvious once you've removed them, and are easily fixed with new plugs. But replace all 6.
It is likely you will find the plugs and ignition coil have been damaged by oil leaking from the cam-covers.
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Sure, actually I changed all six spark plugs some weeks ago and new cam covers + seals as well (and even the thermostat). Cam covers were leaking outside in that time, I remember no oil was found inside. Idling was OK in that time. This is a new problem. I agree ignition is good to check, perhaps coils are coming to the end of their lives. And it is also possible that I did not succeed well when putting new covers. However, they are not anymore leaking outside, perhaps better to check anyway.
Are there any values in ignition side to record for analysis, Idling is OK now.
Best way I can describe this Idling Problem (I had) is that when idling and you put AC from auto to eco and back to auto and eco etc. it is just similar case what happens to rpm.
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Told ya it's missfiring ;)
Check the plug wells for oil as said. I had leaking camcovers that leaked outside, after i replaced them they started to leak inside aswell. You should probably change the covers and aluminium ones are best way to go. My plastic covers went fubar at 215000 km and we are in the same enviroment. Take them off and inspect most carefully, if any wavey section discovered throw them away.
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Ok, OK
Cam covers are only a couple of weeks old but I believe you all, they can leak inside now. Better to check. This 2-4-6 coil back is just that terrible to take away. I would like to avoid to do this twice as if everything is OK then the only case is to change the coil back or what do you think?
I could order a new coil back beforehand, is that a stupid idea...
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Told ya it's missfiring ;)
Check the plug wells for oil as said. I had leaking camcovers that leaked outside, after i replaced them they started to leak inside aswell. You should probably change the covers and aluminium ones are best way to go. My plastic covers went fubar at 215000 km and we are in the same enviroment. Take them off and inspect most carefully, if any wavey section discovered throw them away.
Changing to aluminium covers is a cheat. If you clean the breathers properly and only torque to the specified 8nm then plastic covers are fine
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Told ya it's missfiring ;)
Check the plug wells for oil as said. I had leaking camcovers that leaked outside, after i replaced them they started to leak inside aswell. You should probably change the covers and aluminium ones are best way to go. My plastic covers went fubar at 215000 km and we are in the same enviroment. Take them off and inspect most carefully, if any wavey section discovered throw them away.
Changing to aluminium covers is a cheat. If you clean the breathers properly and only torque to the specified 8nm then plastic covers are fine
Not if they look like bananas!
OP, first look for oil in plug wells.
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Breathers are clean. Still some thoughts:
Just checked with live data again.
1. All the engine live values remain quite stable when idling rpm drops except the "Ignition Spark Angle". Spark Angle is around 4 when idling normally and when idling rpm drops it can show anything between -5 and +18 until the idling is normal again. Even Dwell angle remains stable. Does this indicate anything?
2. When I accelerate the engine (gear in neutral and car not moving) somewhere 1100 rpm all problems disappear. All values are stable and engine is running smoothly. Same in 2000, 3000 etc. If plug well/coil have problems with oil what does change when revolution increase?
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Hello
Does anybody know whether this "spark angle" read by live data tester being anything between -5 and +18 when rpm drops is a reference value from ECU or actual value. I am still wondering what this all really is as the engine behaves normally in normal drive acceleration is good etc. Only idling problem and some vibration below 1000 rpm.
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Took finally coil back 2-4-6 away.
Good news: No oil leak inside so absolutely no oil anywhere. I succeeded with my cam cover change work.
Bad news: Plug well of syl No. six full of clean water, not coolant as not sweet at all.
Rubber sealing around coil back seem to be elongated.
1. Where is the water coming, rain water? How to prevent?
2. Can I buy only these rubbers?
Happy New Year
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Water is coming in through the scuttle. Rain soming off the windscreen is intended to drain down the drain left hand side of the screen, but can leak through central wiper hole or gaps in scuttle and base of screen, then find its way along the spongy insulation to drip into no. 6 cylinder, causing a misfire. There is a guide somewhere on this forum to sealing the scuttle.
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Thanks!
I always wondered what is this "Scuttle" you are talking about. Hope someone helps me to find the guide you mentioned.
Are the rubber sealing of coil backs available separately. They should be in good condition as well I suppose.
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Thanks!
I always wondered what is this "Scuttle" you are talking about. Hope someone helps me to find the guide you mentioned.
Are the rubber sealing of coil backs available separately. They should be in good condition as well I suppose.
In the maintenance guide section.........
here Remove wipers and scuttle - with photographs (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=111517.0)
and here Where to use sealant to reseal the scuttle if it leaks following removal (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=128823.0)
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Thanks Andy H
Happy New Year to You!
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As regards the sealing rubber rings on the top of the coil packs, I have always thought they should keep the water out from the plug holes, but they don't. It may be that that as the hot air inside the coil pack plug space cools down it sucks in whatever is outside; if it is water in it goes. It naturally collects in the plug holes, and after many engine hot/cold cycles enough water is collected to allow the spark to short to earth causing a misfire. Best solution is to stop water getting on top of the coil pack.
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Good Morning and thanks for help!
I start the scuttle sealing work today;
1. Understood that no need to renew sealing rubber rings around coil back?
2. In the http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=128823.0 Doctor Gollum refer to "Right above pot 6" What does this mean?
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I expect Doctor Gollum wll be along shortly. If you open the bonnet and pour water on the screen with a hose or a jug you will see where it goes. It might surprise you; it did me.
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Good Morning and thanks for help!
I start the scuttle sealing work today;
1. Understood that no need to renew sealing rubber rings around coil back?
2. In the http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=128823.0 Doctor Gollum refer to "Right above pot 6" What does this mean?
pot 6 = cylinder 6 = the one at the back over on drivers side (assuming Left Hand Drive).
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Thanks, yes, Left Hand Drive, so that one where the well is full of water...
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Hello again
I think one big problem for this case (water in syl 6 well) is that the wind screen bottom rubber seal is totally loose. I took the whole seal away without any problem. I should now "glue" it back. Do anybody have instructions and chemicals (silicon or whatever) what to use and how. I am working in a warm garage. Seal is washed well like the bottom part of the windscreen, too.
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I had the same problem with a 2000 Omega 2.5 I bought in July. I used Evostik Gripfill, a building trade adhesive I believe, which has proved entirely effective.
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Using Evostik Gripfill will surely result in problems if you have remove the rubber at some later point as it dries like rock?
I have previously used a permanently flexible windscreen sealant; the grey coloured type that was regularly used on old type windscreens where the glass sat in a lip in the seal before the modern type bonded screens. It skins over, but remains flexible underneath. It's easier to remove if necessary and doesn't look out of place if a bit shows on the glass/rubber.
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Thanks for comments. The seal is now in my bathroom. I washed it properly and found that it consists of two pieces. A soft rubber part and in a middle a hard plastic part. The bottom side of the plastic part have a groove where the scuttle edge will be put. Perhaps here no glue is needed here?
The upper part of the plastic is convex and must probably sit tightly against to the wind screen bottom side groove, so I put glue there.
Then the whole seal perhaps must be glued to the steel part having those fixing holes for the scuttle. This might be the most important joint as if that is leaking the water goes directly to wrong place. Did I understand this correctly. I wonder a bit this as there are no marks from original glue (from 2001).
Any tips to make this task properly are welcome.
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Is this the seal that clips into the lower edge of the screen? No sealant reqd.
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Is this the seal that clips into the lower edge of the screen? No sealant reqd.
It doesn't really do very much then I assume :-\
The screen is bonded in place so water running down the screen falls into the scuttle regardless of whether the trim is attached.
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Is this the seal that clips into the lower edge of the screen? No sealant reqd.
It doesn't really do very much then I assume :-\
The screen is bonded in place so water running down the screen falls into the scuttle regardless of whether the trim is attached.
If it becomes unclipped, as is reasonably common, water runs under the scuttle, rather than over it, and fills the foam with soggy water.
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Is this the seal that clips into the lower edge of the screen? No sealant reqd.
It doesn't really do very much then I assume :-\
The screen is bonded in place so water running down the screen falls into the scuttle regardless of whether the trim is attached.
If it becomes unclipped, as is reasonably common, water runs under the scuttle, rather than over it, and fills the foam with soggy water.
Ahh - I think that is the missing link in my understanding of what must be watertight to keep the foam dry.
It never did make much sense to me to stick the centre plastic section to the metal section where the pollen filter lives if it didn't leave the factory that way.
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Neither part of that lower window trim is any longer available. Gluing it to the screen should therefore be avoided if you are likely to ever need a new screen.
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Is this the seal that clips into the lower edge of the screen? No sealant reqd.
Yes it is that seal but sorry for wrong information. The seal was upside down in my hand. So the upper side of the plastic part has a groove where the lower edge of the wind screen should go. Now I understand better how this seal should work. If the joint of lower edge of screen is watertight to the groove there is no need to glue the plastic to the metal section. But to make this joint good I guess only choice is to use glue. Hope I do not ever need a new screen like Harris K Telemacher mentioned.
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My personal view is to bin the foam underneath the skuttle which holds the water and transports it to the coil pack.
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My personal view is to bin the foam underneath the scuttle which holds the water and transports it to the coil pack.
That gets my vote. My scuttle is badly split in the driver's side corner, and it is simply slid under the windscreen trim because all of the windscreen clips are broken. It was like that when I bought the car. After removing the foam, I no longer have any problems of finding rainwater where it shouldn't be.
I do ensure that the join of both parts is aligned, and have no intention of sticking any of it down because I hate fumbling about at the back of the engine unnecessarily.
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My personal view is to bin the foam underneath the scuttle which holds the water and transports it to the coil pack.
That gets my vote. My scuttle is badly split in the driver's side corner, and it is simply slid under the windscreen trim because all of the windscreen clips are broken. It was like that when I bought the car. After removing the foam, I no longer have any problems of finding rainwater where it shouldn't be.
I do ensure that the join of both parts is aligned, and have no intention of sticking any of it down because I hate fumbling about at the back of the engine unnecessarily.
Seconded :y
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Even if the hard plastic trim and lower windscreen seal are in good order and positioned correctly, a small amount of the permanently flexible old style windscreen sealer applied between the glass and the inner lip of the lower rubber seal won't go amiss and prevents any water running off the bottom of the screen going between the seal and under the scuttle trim into the foam. It can be easily cleaned up, isn't visible and still allows the rubber seal being removed in the future, but in my view is a 'belt and braces' practice to prevent any water from getting into the engine bay via the foam.
I had the damp foam problem and having checked the windscreen trims / seals were in order, applied this sealant and it worked for me.
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Even if the hard plastic trim and lower windscreen seal are in good order and positioned correctly, a small amount of the permanently flexible old style windscreen sealer applied between the glass and the inner lip of the lower rubber seal won't go amiss and prevents any water running off the bottom of the screen going between the seal and under the scuttle trim into the foam. It can be easily cleaned up, isn't visible and still allows the rubber seal being removed in the future, but in my view is a 'belt and braces' practice to prevent any water from getting into the engine bay via the foam.
I had the damp foam problem and having checked the windscreen trims / seals were in order, applied this sealant and it worked for me.
See my post above ::)
Both the rubber and the frame need to be transfered to any new windscreen being fitted.
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Even if the hard plastic trim and lower windscreen seal are in good order and positioned correctly, a small amount of the permanently flexible old style windscreen sealer applied between the glass and the inner lip of the lower rubber seal won't go amiss and prevents any water running off the bottom of the screen going between the seal and under the scuttle trim into the foam. It can be easily cleaned up, isn't visible and still allows the rubber seal being removed in the future, but in my view is a 'belt and braces' practice to prevent any water from getting into the engine bay via the foam.
I had the damp foam problem and having checked the windscreen trims / seals were in order, applied this sealant and it worked for me.
This is what I think, too. I believe that when this car left factory the joint between this seal construction and screen must have been water proof. To maintain that situation with old parts perhaps some chemicals are needed. I would put sealant where johnnydog proposed but also to the plastic trim/groove. To do that properly the sealant must be removed and the groove cleaned. Mine was full of sand, dust and other residuals.
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Both the rubber and the frame need to be transfered to any new windscreen being fitted.
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I can't see there would be a problem should a new windscreen be needed in the future, as you are only putting a small amount between the glass and inside edge of the lower seal, not sticking the frame with a non removable substance. The grey windscreen sealant is easily removeable. Now if you used Gripfill (as has been mentioned) or windscreen glass bonding, that would be a different story......
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Sure, that will be the way I am going to do it, then also the wiper holes to be done.
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Both the rubber and the frame need to be transfered to any new windscreen being fitted.
I can't see there would be a problem should a new windscreen be needed in the future, as you are only putting a small amount between the glass and inside edge of the lower seal, not sticking the frame with a non removable substance. The grey windscreen sealant is easily removeable. Now if you used Gripfill (as has been mentioned) or windscreen glass bonding, that would be a different story......
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The frame is an interference fit on the glass, the rubber then clips to the frame, and fitted correctly, it is pulled onto the glass, making a seal...
By all means, remove it and clean it before refitting correctly, but it shouldn't need sticking on. Ever.
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I had a new GM screen fitted back in approx 2007/8, complete with new GM rubbers, lower seal, frame etc. I did notice that when fitted (dry) the new lower seal fitted perfectly, and tight to the screen, and I never had any water getting under the scuttle. Can only presume that older rubbers deform slightly and get mis-shapen, and when refitted dont seal as well as they originally did. Hence the need, I felt, for a small amount of grey windscreen sealant.
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I had a new GM screen fitted back in approx 2007/8, complete with new GM rubbers, lower seal, frame etc. I did notice that when fitted (dry) the new lower seal fitted perfectly, and tight to the screen, and I never had any water getting under the scuttle. Can only presume that older rubbers deform slightly and get mis-shapen, and when refitted dont seal as well as they originally did. Hence the need, I felt, for a small amount of grey windscreen sealant.
Yes, I think that this is the explanation. Specially here in Finland (this morning -14 degrees Celsius) screen is on ice + some snow, and it is removed heavily in a hurry. The sealing have hard conditions. Then some water can leak in slightly which freezes in next night, expands and deforms a bit more etc. I contacted this morning local screen seller. He mentioned that new screen includes lower sealing, hope it is so.
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"By all means, remove it and clean it before refitting correctly, but it shouldn't need sticking on. Ever."
HKT - I can't quite see where the 'sticking it on' comes into it. All I am suggesting is when refitting the lower seal, possibly apply a small amount of the traditional windscreen sealer to the inner lip of the lower seal where it contacts the glass. Its not sticking it, just sealing it because with age they may not fit as well as did when new. Its only my suggestion - if you choose to refit yours dry, then that's absolutely fine. As already said, I've done it with mine, and it worked for me. Then Polilara can make his own choice with the suggestions offered.
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Is this the seal that clips into the lower edge of the screen? No sealant reqd.
It doesn't really do very much then I assume :-\
The screen is bonded in place so water running down the screen falls into the scuttle regardless of whether the trim is attached.
If it becomes unclipped, as is reasonably common, water runs under the scuttle, rather than over it, and fills the foam with soggy water.
Mine became unclipped without glue so after gluing it remains where it should be. So that's it.
But I beleive that I need new coil back at least for bank two. After having checked (the new) spark plugs and dried all the water etc. from plug wells of bank 2 I still have bad idling as informed in the beginning of this topic. Fault codes codes 0300 and 0304 is found several times. After cold start also 0301! Now when Idling I can also see that short term trim for bank two goes up to +18 while short term trim for bank 1 remains somewhere in 7. I can also feel the smell of gasoline when idling.
Any ideas? Should I buy a new coil back for bank two at once or check whether any water can be found also from bank 1 wells.
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I'd only replace one if its starting to fail. Get a decent brand though, such as Bosch.
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Yes and thanks for comment, already ordered 0 221 503 027, Bosch.
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Assembled yesterday new Bosch coil back for bank two (2-4-6-). What a nice idling. Ordered also 1-3-5 coil back as they seem to be quite cheap now - about 113 € each. Perhaps I need it some day. Thanks for help...
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Glad you've sorted it, and thanks for posting up the solution/outcome :y