Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: biggriffin on 11 February 2016, 21:24:50
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Now, it's been in the news for a while,
Lots of they said and he says, and lots of it's all about patients, o and there safety.
Then the government says doctors and patients will be better off,and earn more, and work less hours.
My question is what is in the new contract, that's different from the old one,
Basically what's all the problems about, or is it a typical union verses employer fight :-X
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I've tried to find out properly myself. I think that the enhanced hourly rates are now from 10 pm instead of 7 and Sat is now just for 'normal' rates
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It's a bit hazy, but the new contracts state that a Doctor must work one weekend per month. They will be rewarded for this (financially). Reportedly a 13.5% payrise. That's quite a bit! As a 'for example'..... My GP spends most of her time abroad doing 'work' in Africa. She is a 50% owner of the Practice, and her Husband is African. Read of that how you will.
I don't see the problem. My Mother worked for the NHS since it began, my wife works for the NHS. Weekend work has always been part and parcel of the job.
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Been looking.and it seems they are having there "overtime rate cut" basically the government want to pay them a flat rate for all hours worked, and they will be 13.5% better off for less hours.
So according to the government less hours more money, but you lose your enhanced weekend rate,.
Seems a good deal to me, if my employer said less hours more money but no enhanced weekend rate, I would check it is correct and if so sign, but less hours more money that's what everybody wants.
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Also why can't doctors work 4 on 4 off, like most people through-out industry do now days, or is that to simple for the nhs(government) to work out
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There's a table here to show things as simply as possible
We will fight contract imposition, says BMA
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35548091
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It does seem a fair deal to me, and as it is a service industry, a fair wage for 24/7 work seems right. I'm sure there are many of us who have had to work jobs requiring cover 24/7, I did all my working life, and at no time was I paid extra for working nights or weekends, although BA did pay me an extra dinner allowance for Xmas day working. Which was every other year. ;D ;D ;D
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It doesn't really matter whether it's fair or not, it's forcing someone to sign a new contract. If two parties sign a contract, it should be binding. If it is to be altered, it should be with agreement from both sides.
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On a personal note, I would love to see the government get a kick in the gonads over this, but the days of 'one for all and all for one' seem to have disappeared.
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Weekend work has always been part and parcel of the job.
That's not the problem ...... it's whether they're paid enhanced rates for the week ends.
I get paid the same for a Sat & Sun as I do for a Mon or Wed but ........ all my shifts attract a 35% shift rate
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Weekend work has always been part and parcel of the job.
That's not the problem ...... it's whether they're paid enhanced rates for the week ends.
I get paid the same for a Sat & Sun as I do for a Mon or Wed but ........ all my shifts attract a 35% shift rate
I agree it's not the problem. People who CHOOSE this type of employment, CHOOSE to work unsociable hours.
Next?
EDIT: Sat next to my wife who told me to say this. (She works for the NHS).
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Weekend work has always been part and parcel of the job.
That's not the problem ...... it's whether they're paid enhanced rates for the week ends.
I get paid the same for a Sat & Sun as I do for a Mon or Wed but ........ all my shifts attract a 35% shift rate
I wouldn't say that too loudly :o
We get a flat rate regardless of when we work... ie £X ph for every hour, whether shift or overtime... only exception is bank holidays, which are double...
The other thing is that if you work permanent days, then you get paid £Xd, if you work 2 days/2nights/4 off, then you get half the night enhancement (25p an hour), and if you do permanent nights, then you get full night enhancement (50p). The only redeeming feature of this is your contract hourly rate is the rate you get paid regardless of the actual shifts you work... ie on a permanent nights rate, you get paid the night enhancement even if you do all your overtime on day shift and even if you're covering a lower rated role in another part of the operation...
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The other thing is that if you work permanent days, then you get paid £Xd, if you work 2 days/2nights/4 off, then you get half the night enhancement (25p an hour), and if you do permanent nights, then you get full night enhancement (50p). .....
You get just 50 pence per hour for working nights? ???
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My normal rota is 12 shifts per 4 weeks. 10 nightshifts, 2 day shifts. 4 of the nightshifts are at weekends. A total of 162 hours.
I go on overtime rate (time and a half) if I work any extra shifts over and above this, to cover holidays or sickness. Otherwise, its all at standard rate, even on Christmas day.
I knew this when I took the job, so no point moaning about it now.
Similarily, doctors should know that when they decide to be a doctor they can expect to work weekends, unsociable hours etc.
Its well known to anyone who has spent a lot of time in hospital in recent years, that staff on the wards are treading water over the weekends until they are up to strength with the normal quota of doctors etc. on Monday morning.
I believe this came about in the new labour years when they renegotiated NHS contracts.
Whatever the reason, it shouldn't happen. Hospitals should be as competent and able to treat the sick on Saturdays and Sundays as they are Monday to Friday.
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The other thing is that if you work permanent days, then you get paid £Xd, if you work 2 days/2nights/4 off, then you get half the night enhancement (25p an hour), and if you do permanent nights, then you get full night enhancement (50p). .....
You get just 50 pence per hour for working nights? ???
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Weekend work has always been part and parcel of the job.
That's not the problem ...... it's whether they're paid enhanced rates for the week ends.
I get paid the same for a Sat & Sun as I do for a Mon or Wed but ........ all my shifts attract a 35% shift rate
I agree it's not the problem. People who CHOOSE this type of employment, CHOOSE to work unsociable hours.
Next?
EDIT: Sat next to my wife who told me to say this. (She works for the NHS).
Our 'managers' are trying to implement the Working Time Directive to save money... even though we're an exempted industry and you sign an official Opt Out saying that you understand that you're working shifts in a fluid environment... oppstards ::)
There are a handful of complete morons who try to demand having their breaks at set times everyday, irrespective of the fact that the timings of flights and workload is never the same two days running... really grips my shit, that >:( if you get allocated a job in 25 minutes time, then that's enough time to have two cups of tea and half your sandwiches... the fact that you don't officially get your break for six or seven hours is almost irrelevant as you have probably been sat around for a third of that time ::)
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Afaik you cant exempt yourself from the working time directive. You can exempt yourself from the 48 hour element of it, but not the rest, such as 11 hour breaks between shifts ?
I may be wrong though ? :-\
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Hospitals should be as competent and able to treat the sick on Saturdays and Sundays as they are Monday to Friday.
Hospitals do kinda manage a 24 hr A&E. 12 months ago my daughter was admitted to the local A&E at about 2300 one Sunday evening with what turned out to be kidney stones. She was treated there and then sent by ambulance at about 2 in the morning to another hospital where they still had the staff around to diagnose & treat her. (the fact she had to go to another hospital 10 miles away is a completely different headline).
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My normal rota is 12 shifts per 4 weeks. 10 nightshifts, 2 day shifts. 4 of the nightshifts are at weekends. A total of 162 hours.
I go on overtime rate (time and a half) if I work any extra shifts over and above this, to cover holidays or sickness. Otherwise, its all at standard rate, even on Christmas day.....
I go to work 14 days out of 28 ..... 5 days in, 3 days off, 6 days in & then the other way round, most are 12 hours, others are only 9. Any overtime is at time & a half apart from the rare Sunday which is double time.
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A&E yes, up to a point. Wards are a different story.
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There are a handful of complete morons who try to demand having their breaks at set times everyday, irrespective of the fact that the timings of flights and workload is never the same two days running... really grips my shit, that >:( if you get allocated a job in 25 minutes time, then that's enough time to have two cups of tea and half your sandwiches... the fact that you don't officially get your break for six or seven hours is almost irrelevant as you have probably been sat around for a third of that time ::)
Hi forking Five!
Do the job you have enrolled to do. Too many people work within stupid rules and claim "I need a break now, I've been sat here for 4 hours". Forking idiots.
I bet even our Eton educated leader doesn't take 'statutory' breaks.
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The other thing is that if you work permanent days, then you get paid £Xd, if you work 2 days/2nights/4 off, then you get half the night enhancement (25p an hour), and if you do permanent nights, then you get full night enhancement (50p). .....
You get just 50 pence per hour for working nights? ???
That's the difference between the permanent days and permanent nights pay rate... applies across the operation. But it will be interesting to see what happens when the next living wage rise kicks in... because our terminal day shifts on the current living wage... if they get a rise to keep pace then that should filter up the pile ::)
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A&E yes, up to a point. Wards are a different story.
Why? Why does it make a difference? Have you worked on a Ward in a regional hospital? Have you worked in A&E?
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I have spent a lot of time in A&E and on wards in the last ten years. Not as a worker though.
Point is that wards - at least in my local area are run by a skeleton staff at weekends, who keep things ticking over until Monday.
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There's a table here to show things as simply as possible
We will fight contract imposition, says BMA
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35548091
I was looking at that table earlier and found it misleading, the synic in me thinks there may be a small amount of deliberate obfuscation of the truth in it.
table on the left presents % as a whole, the other 2 represent amount + x%. eg 120% of basic vs basic + 30%, the second one is actually higher but looks smaller. At least subconsciously anyhow.
This strike is about nothing but money, ok there is a little bit of politics here (oooo look at the nasty tories killing the NHS) but 95% about the money. At every turn the BMA will make you think it is about patient safety but those arguments are simply BS and the arguements don't stand up to scruteny.
BMA: "These plans will affect patient safety"
Interviewer: "Can you explain how? "
BMA: "No, but trust me, I'm a doctor"
:-\
We were working long hours in Afghan at the hospital, minimum 8 but upto 14 hours a day 7 days a week. People were working long shifts and dealing with some pretty horrific and busy work patterns, without a pay rise. They looked at patient outcomes and Bastion Role 3 hospital was rated the best in the world for trauma. Why? Because the specialists and the management (leadership) weren't afraid to make some pretty ballsy decisions and changes to the fundemental doctrine we had not changed in decades. Changes such as taking the front door of A&E to the scene of the incident, including damage control surgery in the back of a chinook (which when I saw it in action just blew me away)
If something didn't work we changed it.
Nobody cried. Some still sadly died.
We learned, we adapted and we worked hard. The men and women I had the honour of working alongside did some amazing things and saved many lives.
I think it is sad that what is mostly just a financial isue is being hidden by this "Patient Safety" arguement. It has already been proven that if you have a stroke at the weekend you are more likely to die than if you have one during the week. Where is the patient safety arguement here? Why is nobody on the front line or the BMA suggesting or making fundemental changes to how they work in order to change that?
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I have spent a lot of time in A&E and on wards in the last ten years. Not as a worker though.
Point is that wards - at least in my local area are run by a skeleton staff at weekends, who keep things ticking over until Monday.
Wards have a set number of beds.
A&E is completely in the hands of the Beer Gods.
See the difference?
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Afaik you cant exempt yourself from the working time directive. You can exempt yourself from the 48 hour element of it, but not the rest, such as 11 hour breaks between shifts ?
I may be wrong though ? :-\
They are using it to restrict over time... ie you can't work more than six days in a row, but in the same breath, you cannot work any shift within 48hrs of the end of a night shift. Poppycockhorseshit to that :-X
As an industry, aviation is exempt from elements of the WTD due to the variable nature of the industry... also we're required to be present even if there are no flights scheduled as the runway is 24 hour and there's no end of flights over the UK, any number of which can potentially divert in with an emergency.
Point is, you do what you need to to get done... we're mobile, not part of a chain gang and within reason get to make our own breaks... if it's busy, and you're passing the crewroom and are thirsty, you'll nip in and grab a drink to go... you keep your bag in your vehicle, so you have your food with you... if it's quiet then you're in the crew room already, so you can cook a hot meal and eat it at leisure. Simples.
Say you work in a warehouse, and part of your job is taking dead packaging out ton the bins. If you're a smoker and are going out to the bins, then you're clearly going to have a swift puff on the way back ::)
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Yes, they have a set number of beds, but there aren't enough staff (particularily doctors) at weekends to treat the patients in those beds.
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Afaik you cant exempt yourself from the working time directive. You can exempt yourself from the 48 hour element of it, but not the rest, such as 11 hour breaks between shifts ?
I may be wrong though ? :-\
They are using it to restrict over time... ie you can't work more than six days in a row, but in the same breath, you cannot work any shift within 48hrs of the end of a night shift. Poppycockhorseshit to that :-X
As an industry, aviation is exempt from elements of the WTD due to the variable nature of the industry... also we're required to be present even if there are no flights scheduled as the runway is 24 hour and there's no end of flights over the UK, any number of which can potentially divert in with an emergency.
Point is, you do what you need to to get done... we're mobile, not part of a chain gang and within reason get to make our own breaks... if it's busy, and you're passing the crewroom and are thirsty, you'll nip in and grab a drink to go... you keep your bag in your vehicle, so you have your food with you... if it's quiet then you're in the crew room already, so you can cook a hot meal and eat it at leisure. Simples.
Say you work in a warehouse, and part of your job is taking dead packaging out ton the bins. If you're a smoker and are going out to the bins, then you're clearly going to have a swift puff on the way back ::)
You will never make it to management with that attitude. Far too much common sense. ;)
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Yes, they have a set number of beds, but there aren't enough staff (particularily doctors) at weekends to treat the patients in those beds.
Have you spent any time in a Hospital? A Doctor is not required 99% of the time on a ward.
I don't see the point you are trying to make?
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Yes, they have a set number of beds, but there aren't enough staff (particularily doctors) at weekends to treat the patients in those beds.
Have you spent any time in a Hospital? A Doctor is not required 99% of the time on a ward.
I don't see the point you are trying to make?
Lots. The point Im making is that when a doctor is needed at weekends, it is often very difficult for staff to locate one (or a suitably qualified one, depending on the illness) ,as they are often very thin on the ground.
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Oh, nd I forgot to add. Iam not against medical professionals getting paid more, quite the opposite in fact. However, I think nurses deserve it more than doctors :y
But I do loath wrapping up"we should be paid more" with "patient safety"
It grips my sh!!
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Yes, they have a set number of beds, but there aren't enough staff (particularily doctors) at weekends to treat the patients in those beds.
That's shit rostering/poor resource management. If the NHS is supposed to be 24 hours then make it 24 hours ::)
Have half the staff working nights, Shift N, and half working days, Shift D each shift should be split in half... N and N2, D1 and D2 respectively... Shift x1 start at 0500 or 1700, and Shift x2 starts at 0700 or 1900.
Everyone does 12 hour shifts and works four on/four off. If the shifts are too long, then simply split the staff into twelve rather than eight... and go three on/three off eight hour shifts... say... 0400/1200/2000 and 0600/1400/2200...
Actually the latter scenario is good because you could pay everyone in any given role the same rate regardless because they could do early/middle/late/3 off...
That's the 24/7 NHS sorted, what's next ::)
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.... However, I think nurses deserve it more than doctors :y
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As my daughter is doing a nursing degree at UCLAN I couldn't agree more! :y :y :y
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Yes, they have a set number of beds, but there aren't enough staff (particularily doctors) at weekends to treat the patients in those beds.
That's shit rostering/poor resource management. If the NHS is supposed to be 24 hours then make it 24 hours ::)
Have half the staff working nights, Shift N, and half working days, Shift D each shift should be split in half... N and N2, D1 and D2 respectively... Shift x1 start at 0500 or 1700, and Shift x2 starts at 0700 or 1900.
Everyone does 12 hour shifts and works four on/four off. If the shifts are too long, then simply split the staff into twelve rather than eight... and go three on/three off eight hour shifts... say... 0400/1200/2000 and 0600/1400/2200...
Actually the latter scenario is good because you could pay everyone in any given role the same rate regardless because they could do early/middle/late/3 off...
That's the 24/7 NHS sorted, what's next ::)
Well put sir, but you are dealing with the last union dinosaur left in Britain, it hates change,
Sir Digby Jones did a series of programmes at hospitals to try to make them work more efficient, it worked, the had a better thro-put, and saved money and were less stressed, bet you can't guess what happened afterwards?
NHS needs a shake up from the top down, and the biggest problem is it's used as a political pawn by all the parties, that change it under every consecutive health minister, who is trying to make a name for hi. Self, The nhs is just plodding along, consuming millions of pounds, and doesn't like change due to the unions.
It's a dinosaur, look what happened to all the other dinosaur industry's run by unions.
Another example " NHS buys paracetamol at £1.00 you can buy them for 25p at Tesco.
The NHS is the largest purchasers of drugs worldwide, yet it overpays for all of them, can't see a large supermarket chain being dictated to by its suppliers, or staff.
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It grips my sh!!
And by the sound of it, that's probably like trying to hold on to porridge... ;D
(Couldn't resist, this discussion is far too serious)
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It grips my sh!!
And by the sound of it, that's probably like trying to hold on to porridge... ;D
(Couldn't resist, this discussion is far too serious)
Occasionally OOF does do serious. ;)
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It grips my sh!!
And by the sound of it, that's probably like trying to hold on to porridge... ;D
(Couldn't resist, this discussion is far too serious)
;D ;D
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This post just appeared on my Facebook. Not sure of the role of the poster, but I found it quite amusing under the present situation :) ..........
Quote.....
'I think it's high time we proposed a new employment contract for MP's with the following amendments:
1. We need our parliament to be a 24/7 service, so propose to extend the working hours from 7am until 10pm Monday through Saturday, with overtime/subsidised meals and transport only available outside of those hours.
2. In addition to point 1, MP's expenses beyond the basic requirements of their constituency office (i.e office stationery supplies) will no longer be available, but this will be offset by the extended hours required to work so not really a pay cut... Hell, let's say we increase their basic hourly rate by 1% and say they're getting a pay rise
3. In order to make this a truely accessible 24/7 service, MP's should be available to their constituents no matter what time, day or night by making their phone numbers available to constituents who need them in emergencies. It's for the safety of their constituents, and our priority at all times will be the safety of our constituents (even if an overworked MP means they're not able to help their constituents safely). The closing of parliament during the summer will unfortunately have to end in order for us to achieve this 24/7 service, but it is for the good of the people.
I figure we just impose this amended employment contract on them, even if they threaten to strike or resign. We can use these to our advantage by saying they're just greedy and don't really care about their constituency's at all. And the bonus is, if they do resign, we can just employ new MP's under the new contract. So, whether the MP's want it or not, we get our 24/7 parliament even if it ends up being an even shitter version of the current one.
I figure we only need 30% of the population to agree and we can call that a majority!'
...Unquote
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My six shift three on three three off idea can be applied to any role... If you can do shopping 24/7 why not anything else :-\
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Why are we limiting the contract changes to just doctors? As a 24 hour business that cannot accurately predict its busy periods, surely there is a desperate need for the middle and senior managers, business consultants and all the other self-abusers that large bureaucracies 'need' to be available all the time? Put every employee on a four-on-four off, rotating 24hour shift pattern, and disallow any overtime payment over 60minutes that hadn't been authorised at least a week in advance.
A serious proposal to do this would soon see so many toys thrown out that the whole country would look like a bomb had gone off in Toys R Us.
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Put every employee on a four-on-four off, rotating 24hour shift pattern, .....
Yuk!! I've never worked it, but everyone I know that has, has hated it.
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Put every employee on a four-on-four off, rotating 24hour shift pattern, .....
Yuk!! I've never worked it, but everyone I know that has, has hated it.
QED
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Put every employee on a four-on-four off, rotating 24hour shift pattern, .....
Yuk!! I've never worked it, but everyone I know that has, has hated it.
QED
Hammer... nail... head ;D
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1. Ref 24/7, my wife was taken into A&E on NY Day, Friday, well looked after but kept in overnight for obs. Ward was defo understaffed, wife spent the night helping a distressed patient in the next bed! Prescribed tablets next day at 9.00 AM to be discharged that day. At 5.00PM still had not got tabs and was discharged, so she unnecessarily occupied an emergency bed for at least 7 hours. I had to drive in to collect the tablets the next day, and still had to wait 2 hours for them! Fortunately one of my golfing partners is Chairman of the Hospital Trust, so he was very grateful for my input.
2. My wife has recently been - reluctantly - prescribed tabs, that my GP tells me cost £198 per month for 28 tablets, I can buy 150 of the same tablets from Greece for 40 Euros! Go figure. I have written to my MP with these figures and await her reply with interest.
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2. My wife has recently been - reluctantly - prescribed tabs, that my GP tells me cost £198 per month for 28 tablets, I can buy 150 of the same tablets from Greece for 40 Euros! Go figure. I have written to my MP with these figures and await her reply with interest.
Why the NHS isn't exercising its' considerable buying power and instead chooses to be shafted I'll never know. Need to get someone with some nouse running it, IMHO.
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2. My wife has recently been - reluctantly - prescribed tabs, that my GP tells me cost £198 per month for 28 tablets, I can buy 150 of the same tablets from Greece for 40 Euros! Go figure. I have written to my MP with these figures and await her reply with interest.
Why the NHS isn't exercising its' considerable buying power and instead chooses to be shafted I'll never know. Need to get someone with some nouse running it, IMHO.
Probably because they are forced to buy absolutely everything via NHS Supply Chain, which itself is about as efficient as British Rail...
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2. My wife has recently been - reluctantly - prescribed tabs, that my GP tells me cost £198 per month for 28 tablets, I can buy 150 of the same tablets from Greece for 40 Euros! Go figure. I have written to my MP with these figures and await her reply with interest.
Why the NHS isn't exercising its' considerable buying power and instead chooses to be shafted I'll never know. Need to get someone with some nouse running it, IMHO.
Probably because they are forced to buy absolutely everything via NHS Supply Chain, which itself is about as efficient as British Rail...
If they're an essential part of the NHS then all the employees should be doing the same 24hour 7 days a week that the medical staff are expected to. That would soon sort out what is, and isn't necessary/efficient.
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2. My wife has recently been - reluctantly - prescribed tabs, that my GP tells me cost £198 per month for 28 tablets, I can buy 150 of the same tablets from Greece for 40 Euros! Go figure. I have written to my MP with these figures and await her reply with interest.
Why the NHS isn't exercising its' considerable buying power and instead chooses to be shafted I'll never know. Need to get someone with some nouse running it, IMHO.
Probably because they are forced to buy absolutely everything via NHS Supply Chain, which itself is about as efficient as British Rail...
If they're an essential part of the NHS then all the employees should be doing the same 24hour 7 days a week that the medical staff are expected to. That would soon sort out what is, and isn't necessary/efficient.
NHS supply chain is run by DHL.
Think your referring to procurement. That's government supply contracts, a den of back handers and fiddling, by minsters, and civil servents who are "entertained" by large corporations.
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Www.huntjeremy.co.uk
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I work for the NHS and find that the rules are all made by 8 - 5 office workers who do not work nights, weekends, bank holidays or any other antisocial hours but deem themselves experts on those that do and have never done the job they impose changes on. I am not an accountant and would not tell an accountant how to do his/her job but plenty of these oppsers tell me how to do mine >:(
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I work for the NHS and find that the rules are all made by 8 - 5 office workers who do not work nights, weekends, bank holidays or any other antisocial hours but deem themselves experts on those that do and have never done the job they impose changes on. I am not an accountant and would not tell an accountant how to do his/her job but plenty of these oppsers tell me how to do mine >:(
Well said, that man. And that applies to many especially government !!!!!!!!!!!! :y
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I work for the NHS and find that the rules are all made by 8 - 5 office workers who do not work nights, weekends, bank holidays or any other antisocial hours but deem themselves experts on those that do and have never done the job they impose changes on. I am not an accountant and would not tell an accountant how to do his/her job but plenty of these oppsers tell me how to do mine >:(
Aggred. The busiest time around here on the roads is when the hospital starts work 07.45 and finishes 16.45. That goes for the police hq which is on the same site.
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There's a table here to show things as simply as possible
We will fight contract imposition, says BMA
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35548091
I was looking at that table earlier and found it misleading, the synic in me thinks there may be a small amount of deliberate obfuscation of the truth in it.
table on the left presents % as a whole, the other 2 represent amount + x%. eg 120% of basic vs basic + 30%, the second one is actually higher but looks smaller. At least subconsciously anyhow.
This strike is about nothing but money, ok there is a little bit of politics here (oooo look at the nasty tories killing the NHS) but 95% about the money. At every turn the BMA will make you think it is about patient safety but those arguments are simply BS and the arguements don't stand up to scruteny.
BMA: "These plans will affect patient safety"
Interviewer: "Can you explain how? "
BMA: "No, but trust me, I'm a doctor"
:-\
We were working long hours in Afghan at the hospital, minimum 8 but upto 14 hours a day 7 days a week. People were working long shifts and dealing with some pretty horrific and busy work patterns, without a pay rise. They looked at patient outcomes and Bastion Role 3 hospital was rated the best in the world for trauma. Why? Because the specialists and the management (leadership) weren't afraid to make some pretty ballsy decisions and changes to the fundemental doctrine we had not changed in decades. Changes such as taking the front door of A&E to the scene of the incident, including damage control surgery in the back of a chinook (which when I saw it in action just blew me away)
If something didn't work we changed it.
Nobody cried. Some still sadly died.
We learned, we adapted and we worked hard. The men and women I had the honour of working alongside did some amazing things and saved many lives.
I think it is sad that what is mostly just a financial isue is being hidden by this "Patient Safety" arguement. It has already been proven that if you have a stroke at the weekend you are more likely to die than if you have one during the week. Where is the patient safety arguement here? Why is nobody on the front line or the BMA suggesting or making fundemental changes to how they work in order to change that?
That is a completely wrong, biased and moronic appraisal of a very complicated and important issue. I will say no more because you cannot have a discussion with someone as mis-informed as you who likes to make blanket statements about someone/something else without understanding anything about it. Of course when it comes to something like cycling, you will spend hours spouting crap and writing up proposals to protect your backside. When it comes to your job or your health; again you spend time bleating about it and making it sound like it is the most important thing in the world. However when it comes to the issue of doctors, you always seem to have some sort of hidden agenda of making it look like they are always wrong.
I will leave you with this question. Show me one study that actually shows increased stroke mortality on a weekend is related to the care (or more specifically to the number of doctors) they receive on a weekend rather than other factors including nurses/physio/OT/speech and language therapists/imagers/interventionalists/drug availability/patient transport etc:
https://fullfact.org/health/ask-full-fact-stroke-patients-and-weekend-deaths/ (https://fullfact.org/health/ask-full-fact-stroke-patients-and-weekend-deaths/)
Additionally in response to patient outcomes from Bastion Role 3; there was and still is a lack of information of physiological severity scoring of patients treated and admitted to the unit. And how does comparing outcomes from such a unit apply to a normal NHS hospital. Chinooks which are fully adapted vs tiny air ambulances in the NHS? Level 3 care vs smaller hospitals in the UK, some of whom do not even have level 3 beds? 34% of patients were transferred out to other units. Imagine that in the NHS. 18% were evacuated by a critical care aeromedical evacuation team. None of this happens in the NHS. Why? Because of the level of investment in the above hospital vs what a normal NHS hospital receives.
The average ITU stay in Camp Bastion was 2.5 days. Completely incomparable to a normal NHS hospital ITU stay.
So Jeremy Hunt's explanation of thinning out an already stretched workforce even thinner does not work. What you need is more doctors/nurses/HCA/physios/OT/SALT/images/porters/ phlebotomists to bolster the weekends. Not stretch the workforce and in the process make the weekday less safe.
I am not a junior doctor, but I see the degree of altruism in my junior doctors. Most, if not all of them give up their free time for the patients that they really care about. And you cheapen and insult that dedication by calling it "about the money". Shame on you!
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Steady on, D. You'll have a coronary and end up in hospital. You don't wanna do that on a weekend. ;D
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Steady on, D. You'll have a coronary and end up in hospital. You don't wanna do that on a weekend. ;D
I know, but I think he has to get off the fence and come out with what he really thinks about me ;D
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That is a completely wrong, biased and moronic appraisal of a very complicated and important issue. I will say no more because you cannot have a discussion with someone as mis-informed as you
I like that statement when it precedes War and Peace ::)
I know I am a moron, but there is no need to get personal about it. Look, you seem to think I dont like doctors. You are obviously one and I admire your passion. I even looked at going to medical school during my military career but when I got my diagnosis I knew that would be a bad move so I decided to develop my IT skillset instead.
Oh, but that's not me bleating about being ill. Jeez, I am not the first on here to talk about their ailments. Chill dude.
Nor am I on some crusade to "protect my backside" on cycling. Rather than go loggerheads with motorists on the subject (erm, I'm one of them too) I am instead trying to bring around a change in the fundementals of road infrastructure design processes while also trying to bridge a gap between understanding from those who ride a bike and those that dont. I am the first to acknowledge there are bad eggs on both sides of that debate. Again, chill dude.
Right, back on to the subject. I have avoided responding this weekend because Iwas busy and had better things to do such as dragging Al out of his bed. He took his frustration of lack of sleep out on my boot lid by hammering it like a man possessed and now it works again. Yippie! (p.s. Al, funds inbound this evening for the bumper :y)
The feeling I got from your response made it quite clear you dont like me, not that I care a toss. But you did make some rather sweeping accusations about me and other subjects that I would have to put straight. Firstly, I have the utmost admiration for the medical profession. Doctors nurses HCAs all, well nearly all, do an amazing job and we as a nation are blessed to have such a health system. Ok, occasionally it fails such as when my dad's cancer diagnosis was missed for over a year by which stage he was stage 4 and weeks away from death. Because we dont look part-indian in our family his doctor didn't check the lower oesophagus for squamus cell (dad's grandma was from Gujerat) In the end it was a liver specialist who made the corect diagnosis and it was Professor Hawkins at Christies that took a radical and uncoventional approach to his treatent and amazingly put it in to remission. 8 years on and he is still 100% clear. Amazing. I was misdiagnosed for 4 years and unless I had practically forced the locum GP to refer me to a specialist I may have waited much longer to be properly diagnosed. I learnt later by doing an SAR on my medical notes that the GP actually wrote "I am only referring him to you because he insists, I do not feel anything substantial is wrong but up to you if you wish to see him". However, I would not be alive it weren't for a certain Col Young who had cool fluids ready on a day that fell ill to heatstroke and a rectal temp of 41.9C. The doctors at Frimley A&E that continued the good work that Col Young started also were a mix of civilian and military and some have since become some good friends.
Yet my view on doctors is completely unaffected. I have had the honour of working alongside and supporting them in some pretty inhospitable areas on the globe. Seeing firsthand the amazing work they do was humbling. This is why I have no problem with all health professionals being paid more, including junior doctors. However what I do object to is false pretences. Every single point on patient safety brought up by the BMA, including new rules to reduce the maximum overtime a junior dr can work and increasing fines for trusts that break them, on the new contract were addressed. The final point of contention was the weekend working and the rates and hours for basic vs overtime, and it was this which sent the junior doctors on strike. Every single post on FB from my doctor friends has been about pay, and how little they earn compared to, say, an Aldi shelf stacker. Not one comment or explaination of the connection between the changes to working hours and patient safety despite me asking several of them.
So please. Educate me.
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In return I will pre-emptively pass on a few buggets of my own:
- The study on Bastion R3 was not simply looking at the hospital but the entire medical chain from point of wounding through to rehabilitation. I fully accept what you say about 2.5 days, but I am pretty sure that this statistic refers to UK personnel av ITU occupation rates. I nkow for a fact that there were many Afghan army/police/locals who stayed there much longer, often weeks or more than a month, I know because we had to try and get other facilities to transfer them too, once they were well enough. I got to know a couple of them and even had to source spirits in an emergency once as we had run out of the drugs used to treat methanol poisoning. Getting gin and vodka from Kabul in the space of 3 hours on a Sunday morning when almost everyone is still in bed (except the medical staff of course :y) was tough. Getting the Brigadier to argue with a US general about letting the booze go through his airport was even harder ::). I grew a bit of a reputation in HQ after that one I can tell you ;D
- Weekend mortality rate. There are as many studies supporting the claims as there are disproving them, so Iguess the jury is out. The research by the R4 programme 'More or Less' was pretty good and (for once on the BBC) pretty impartial - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03flxkc I will also say that if the mix of patients differs at weekends, as suggested in the programme, then obviously people subconsciously or consciously know, or certainly feel, that the level of care at the weekend is not on par with that during the week. The study mentioned in the programme did state that 5 out of 6 weekend stroke patients did not get a brain scan soon enough, which as I am sure you know is pretty crucial for patient outcomes when it comes to strokes. However, that study was done 5 years ago and inroads have been made since. That said, it would be interesting to repeat the study to see what has changed :y
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You forgot to put kisses at the end. ;D
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You forgot to put kisses at the end. ;D
I always get carried away with too much tongue ;D
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I'm still troubled by the mental image of Telemacher hammering at your rear end. :o
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I'm still troubled by the mental image of Telemacher hammering at your rear end. :o
It's more common than you think. :)
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I'm still troubled by the mental image of Telemacher hammering at your rear end. :o
It's more common than you think. :)
:o :o
I know these southern members are close but THAT is wrong on so many levels :-X :-X
Please remember that children might be reading this forum ;) :D :D :D
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My wife tells me that there was someone on the BBC this morning who made a very forceful case for the new contracts being part of the precursor to privatisation. Apparently, the big private companies want a slice of the more lucrative parts of the NHS and they don't want junior doctors to be on the contracts they're on right now.
Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just telling you what was said.
Rob G.........fetch me a link to this interview....off you go. ;D
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http://www.lbc.co.uk/junior-doctor-perfectly-explains-why-you-should-back-them-124912
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24 hour operation? Mrs V's mother had a TIA and has been asked to present at the clinic on Friday morning 9.15 a.m. for a follow up. Coincidentally I noticed that there is a ward lock down with so far 24 cases of swine flu so gave them a heads up. They rang at 3 minutes past five and no one available to say whether she still ought to come ("they have gone home")- bearing in mind she lives on a knife edge with chest/breathing issues. More patient /doctors missed apps? I am sorry but no one will ever convince me that hospitals shouldn't be able to make decisions 7 days a week and out of hours.
Waiting for a scan? Is the horribly expensive scanner running 24/7 or sitting idle for chunks of time.
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Was that a rhetorical question?
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About scanner downtime? No it is a serious question if folk have to wait a long time cos there are so few machines.