Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Nick W on 06 May 2016, 17:22:48
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I fitted new shocks, springs, topmounts, bearings, droplinks, trackrods and poly bushes to another Omega on Wednesday.
Knowing this job was coming up, I wasn't keen on using these spring compressors that I've had for about 25 years:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/j9oqw6kwlvvt8at/OldSpringCompressors.jpg?dl=1)
They work OK on old, parallel springs(like on Capris) but are pretty scary on newer ones.
At the kit-car show on Sunday, Rallydesign had their new range of tools on show and as usual, their prices are better than anyone elses. I ended up buying this set(SWE 166) for £65:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/m8zz5topi7b23yg/NewSpringCompressors%20%2812%29.jpg?dl=1)
This is a properly robust, secure, safe and quick to use tool, like this:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/lbum33l64lpasrg/CompressedSpring.jpg?dl=1)
Removing the compressor then using it on the new spring was just as quick and easy, not the scary job that the old ones were. Money well spent I think, and I can thoroughly recommend them.
I also had a chance to examine their camber setting tools: the Gunson bubble type is cheap, but you would struggle to read it to within 1/2degree, and although the digital gauges read to 0.1degree I would still need some way of fixing them to the wheel. I already have a Wixey magnetic digital angle-gauge that reads to 0.1 degree(that I've previously used stuck to a length of angle iron cable-tied across the wheel), so at upwards of £70 I couldn't justify buying anything new. Some thought and scratching around in my stash of useful stuff, and I made this out of a 90mmx25mm thick aluminium blank, a sheet steel disc and a neodymium magnet all epoxied together:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/353rx83l6qsudpd/CamberToolBottom.jpg?dl=1)
and the other side
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/40xdj7q1uevypdj/CamberToolTop.jpg?dl=1)
The 64.8x12.7mm boss fits into the centre hole of the wheel, and the magnet holds it against the hub. Zero the angle-gauge on a straight edge across the strut tops, and once stuck to the steel disc it will display the camber:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/7026dw4s6cpl7kl/CheckingCamber.jpg?dl=1)
Works really well if you don't lose the bloody thing between finishing it on Tuesday evening and wanting it Wednesday >:(
So those pics are of a second one I made this afternoon. Hopefully the first one will now reappear.
And I know making it of steel would save sticking on the steel disc, but I already had these blanks and only small magnets which probably wouldn't be strong enough.
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Looks apretty decent bit of kit you have bought there ,Nick.Should come in very usefull...when you fancy doing my front struts ;D ;)
Camber tool is up to your usual ingenuity so hats off to you :y..you must have a warehouse of fabricated tools :y
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!0 out of 10 for ingenuity :y. 0 out of 10 for memory ;) Nice to be handy with a centre lathe. :y
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I have just done the same job on mine.....but used the dreaded take your head off spring compressors ...old fashioned type as you have shown on your first pic...did it perfectly.....i can honestly say that over about 50 years of doing coil springs have never ever had one fly off ;D
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I have just done the same job on mine.....but used the dreaded take your head off spring compressors ...old fashioned type as you have shown on your first pic...did it perfectly.....i can honestly say that over about 50 years of doing coil springs have never ever had one fly off ;D
I've had them slip while tightening them up, fortunately while the topnut was still in place. The hooks are too short, so they end up at odd angles and catch on the shock. They're slow and fiddly to use. And I know three people, all competent and experienced, who have badly hurt themselves with them.
Put that together, and an upgrade was justified.
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I depict below my front suspension tools, which allow accurate setting of toe-in and camber. I do not understand Opel front wishbone design, one bush vertical and the other horizontal, so use unmodified ATEC wishbones.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/rxx54iegn84ybo6/AXLEstand.jpg?dl=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/yszgwz0363ecng0/wheelSUPPORT.jpg?dl=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/tlc1o2kk0olhhfh/toe-in.jpg?dl=1)
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That's basically the same idea, but the block and axlestand under the wishbone worries me. I keep the wheels on the the car, and lower it onto the four spare steel wheels from my sister's Morris. You have a pit, so could leave the car on the ground. Slacken the camber bolts enough to move the alignment with a prybar(I like the jack handle), and crawl under the car to tighten them. Another pair of hands makes this even easier/quicker.
I don't have the patience to adjust the front and rear toe settings with minimal equipment, especially as large adjustments affect everything else. Getting the camber correct with the front wheels parallel by eye means that any idiot with the 4-wheel alignment gear can get the rest of it right in minutes. That's easily worth the £50 to me. It's not as if it needs doing often.
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Wouldnt argue with that nick lol....heart in mouth and a twitchy bum when they do slip,awful hearing that bang..however i always lay the legs on the deck and pointing away from me and once the top mounting becomes a bit slack then take that off...I do like the spring kit you have bought,,a lot safer....where did you get the angle gauge from please as that is a handy piece of kit..
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Wouldnt argue with that nick lol....heart in mouth and a twitchy bum when they do slip,awful hearing that bang..however i always lay the legs on the deck and pointing away from me and once the top mounting becomes a bit slack then take that off...I do like the spring kit you have bought,,a lot safer....where did you get the angle gauge from please as that is a handy piece of kit..
Mine is this one: http://www.machine-dro.co.uk/wixey-digital-angle-gauge-with-magnetic-base.html (http://www.machine-dro.co.uk/wixey-digital-angle-gauge-with-magnetic-base.html) although you can get them a bit cheaper off Ebay. They're meant for adjusting saw-blades or workpieces in milling machines, but have all sorts of other uses.
I've been thinking about this today, and it wouldn't be too hard to mount four cheap cross-hair laser pointers on the wheels to simultaneously display both camber and toe on a flag mounted halfway along the car. Should be doable for about £30.
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Thanks Nick..i found that and will order one.... :y
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That's basically the same idea, but the block and axlestand under the wishbone worries me. I keep the wheels on the the car, and lower it onto the four spare steel wheels from my sister's Morris. You have a pit, so could leave the car on the ground. Slacken the camber bolts enough to move the alignment with a prybar(I like the jack handle), and crawl under the car to tighten them. Another pair of hands makes this even easier/quicker.
I don't have the patience to adjust the front and rear toe settings with minimal equipment, especially as large adjustments affect everything else. Getting the camber correct with the front wheels parallel by eye means that any idiot with the 4-wheel alignment gear can get the rest of it right in minutes. That's easily worth the £50 to me. It's not as if it needs doing often.
Are your Morris wheels supporting the wheels or the chassis? The point of my supporting the ends of the wishbones is that the wheels are free to turn but the suspension is normally loaded. The wheels are on for the toe-in setting, but supported just off the ground. I had found that with the wheels on the ground turning a track rod a quarter of a turn did not move the wheel, it just loaded the track rod end and put the tyre under tension. With wheels off the ground the setting is very sensitive.
My tyre shop does it with the front wheels on greased discs which is better, but not as free to move as my method.
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Terry,
I the old wheels are placed under the car's wheels so that the full weight is on them. My concern with your photo is that the axlestand should be directly under where you have the timber which in turn really ought to be under balljoint, not offset. Personally, I would dispense with the timber and just use the axlestand. We used to slide cars with damaged or missing wheels along lengths of timber to prevent further damage(to both the car and truck bed) as it is slippery.
I've always adjusted toe with the weight of the car on the wheels with no problems. You could easily replicate your tyreshop's turntables with two glossy magazines under each wheel.
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Thanks for your observations, Nick. Of course you are right, the support ought to be immediatley beneath the ball joint, where I have it part of the vehicle load is not borne by the ball joint. I devised this method some while ago and found it work so well I have not improved it. What I need is an axle stand top shaped to go directly beneath the ball joint. Your suggestion of 2 glossy magazines sounds simple and safer; I shall try it next time.
I have to reset tracking every time I change a wishbone or a track rod, and running six cars that is pretty often. My method requires both track rods to be adjustable to allow for centring of the steering wheel on straight ahead. I always do my own alignments.
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Nick W did a fantastic job on my car even though the car fought back at every turn. Car now been 4 wheel aligned as well.
Thanks Nick :y
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Nick W did a fantastic job on my car even though the car fought back at every turn. Car now been 4 wheel aligned as well.
Thanks Nick :y
You're welcome. I'm now sporting a really colourful black eye.
Out of interest, how far out was it?
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Hi Nick
I told you the car put up a fight :y
PM sent
Dave
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That's basically the same idea, but the block and axlestand under the wishbone worries me. I keep the wheels on the the car, and lower it onto the four spare steel wheels from my sister's Morris. You have a pit, so could leave the car on the ground. Slacken the camber bolts enough to move the alignment with a prybar(I like the jack handle), and crawl under the car to tighten them. Another pair of hands makes this even easier/quicker.
I don't have the patience to adjust the front and rear toe settings with minimal equipment, especially as large adjustments affect everything else. Getting the camber correct with the front wheels parallel by eye means that any idiot with the 4-wheel alignment gear can get the rest of it right in minutes. That's easily worth the £50 to me. It's not as if it needs doing often.
Are you sister's wheels supporting the car under the body or under the wishbones? If under the body, it sounds like how 'Wheels in Motion' Chesham do it, with suspension unloaded.
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That's basically the same idea, but the block and axlestand under the wishbone worries me. I keep the wheels on the the car, and lower it onto the four spare steel wheels from my sister's Morris. You have a pit, so could leave the car on the ground. Slacken the camber bolts enough to move the alignment with a prybar(I like the jack handle), and crawl under the car to tighten them. Another pair of hands makes this even easier/quicker.
I don't have the patience to adjust the front and rear toe settings with minimal equipment, especially as large adjustments affect everything else. Getting the camber correct with the front wheels parallel by eye means that any idiot with the 4-wheel alignment gear can get the rest of it right in minutes. That's easily worth the £50 to me. It's not as if it needs doing often.
Are you sister's wheels supporting the car under the body or under the wishbones? If under the body, it sounds like how 'Wheels in Motion' Chesham do it, with suspension unloaded.
Terry, they are under the Omega's wheels, effectively replacing the ground - from post #12 the old wheels are placed under the car's wheels so that the full weight is on them. If I were supporting the body I would just use axle stands. This gives me enough room(they are about 4.5" wide high in this use) to crawl under the car with an 18mm socket and spanner and tighten the camber bolts, or adjust the tracking, with everything loaded at ride height.
With the use of a pit or 4post lift, such ghetto methods wouldn't be necessary. But I can't dig a pit, or install a lift in the street!
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That's basically the same idea, but the block and axlestand under the wishbone worries me. I keep the wheels on the the car, and lower it onto the four spare steel wheels from my sister's Morris. You have a pit, so could leave the car on the ground. Slacken the camber bolts enough to move the alignment with a prybar(I like the jack handle), and crawl under the car to tighten them. Another pair of hands makes this even easier/quicker.
I don't have the patience to adjust the front and rear toe settings with minimal equipment, especially as large adjustments affect everything else. Getting the camber correct with the front wheels parallel by eye means that any idiot with the 4-wheel alignment gear can get the rest of it right in minutes. That's easily worth the £50 to me. It's not as if it needs doing often.
Are you sister's wheels supporting the car under the body or under the wishbones? If under the body, it sounds like how 'Wheels in Motion' Chesham do it, with suspension unloaded.
Terry, they are under the Omega's wheels, effectively replacing the ground - from post #12 the old wheels are placed under the car's wheels so that the full weight is on them. If I were supporting the body I would just use axle stands. This gives me enough room(they are about 4.5" wide high in this use) to crawl under the car with an 18mm socket and spanner and tighten the camber bolts, or adjust the tracking, with everything loaded at ride height.
With the use of a pit or 4post lift, such ghetto methods wouldn't be necessary. But I can't dig a pit, or install a lift in the street!
I beg your pardon, missed that. I did not expect to be able to adjust camber with the wheels bearing weight, but clearly it can be done. And, indeed, be done by a man lying on his back using a short lever.
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I beg your pardon, missed that. I did not expect to be able to adjust camber with the wheels bearing weight, but clearly it can be done. And, indeed, be done by a man lying on his back using a short lever.
It is possible on your own. but you have to have the bolts nipped up enough for the camber to stay where you set it with the jackhandle in one of the wheel holes.
It's much easier with a second person holding it in place while you tighten the bolts. Crawling under the car is the longest bit of the job.
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I beg your pardon, missed that. I did not expect to be able to adjust camber with the wheels bearing weight, but clearly it can be done. And, indeed, be done by a man lying on his back using a short lever.
It is possible on your own. but you have to have the bolts nipped up enough for the camber to stay where you set it with the jackhandle in one of the wheel holes.
It's much easier with a second person holding it in place while you tighten the bolts. Crawling under the car is the fiddlearsiestballache bit of the job.
You're not wrong...
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Nick W did a fantastic job on my car even though the car fought back at every turn. Car now been 4 wheel aligned as well.
Thanks Nick :y
You got then fitted now, were your old to mounts well worn compared to the new ones?
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Hi Gav
They looked okay until you compare them to the new ones and you can see how compressed they were
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That fabricated magnetised tool is just beautiful and brilliant in equal measure. :y
Where’s that jpeg of Fry from Futurama saying ‘take my money!’ when you need it? Haha.
These, and other things like it need to be in the OOF shop, for sure. Even if it came ‘direct from the manufaturer’ (eg: in this case Nick) and factored in the price was a small ‘commission’ to go to TB/OOF I can’t imagine anyone would argue with that. Aside from perhaps TB, who regularly and modestly refuses monetary contributions for the site.
Cracking post nick, enjoyed reading and learning :)
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Hi Gav
They looked okay until you compare them to the new ones and you can see how compressed they were
I had the same with my Senator, old ones looked ok until I compared then to the new ones and then you can see how much they compress.
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That fabricated magnetised tool is just beautiful and brilliant in equal measure. :y
If you like that, here's the upgrade:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/gi6ciw31q9q5ff0/Wheel%20Alignment%20tools%20v2.jpg?dl=1)
The disc is a bit longer, and the red part is a cross-hair laser pointer. It's to be aimed at an upright perspex flag halfway along the car, marked with both camber and toe divisions. I'm hoping that the perspex will allow the same markings to display both front and rear camber and toe, and that there will be enough space to read to a few minutes of angle.
I've ordered the pointer(£4), but will need some more 90mm aluminium bar(£10)and a bigger magnet(£5). I've already got some perspex and stuff to make an adjustable stand(maybe another£5).
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I cancel my order for the Mk I. Where / when do I buy the Mk II???? :D
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I cancel my order for the Mk I. Where / when do I buy the Mk II? ??? :D
It's still in the that ought to work and be reasonably easy to make and setup stage.
Both are important, but the setup part is the harder part to manage. I'm currently thinking that two flags linked under the car will make setting the distance between the wheels and both square to and equally spaced from the centreline of the car easier.
Expect to see a rough and ready(probably glued MDF) prototype soon.
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I can see "Nick's Value Alignment Check" becoming a popular feature at future meets! :y
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Ditto!
Poor nick, he'll be keeping future inventions shtum, save him the aggro! It's like soon as anyone knows you have a welder, the world and him mate is round every evening after 'little' jobs here and there. I know, because I'm the little sod who keeps pestering my mate for said jobs! ;D 8)
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My Laser DIY Alignment Tool is now in the prototype stage:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/t7als7p2woacetf/LaserMockup.jpg?dl=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/jrspbbdidh84vhi/LaserPrototype.jpg?dl=1)
And the parts:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/bx16t5432msejji/PrototypeParts.jpg?dl=1)
And the bad news is: it doesn't work! Yet.
The problems are: the cheap 5mw laser module isn't powerful enough to use in daylight; the power leads are just taped across a CR2032 battery; and the mounting post isn't long enough.
Those are fixable, by buying a better laser(I'm tempted to go straight to a 100mw version) and a switched battery holder, then making another post. The post you see in the pics was already an offcut which I faced and threaded to suit; a longer one won't take long now I've sorted my technical issues. Once I know how long the post needs to be, there's no need for it to screw into the base. It would just be pressed and epoxied into place which requires fewer operations.
So far the prototype owes me £4 for the laser module, and I only paid that much because I wanted it quickly. A better one will be about £25 which isn't too bad. The aluminium I had in stock for just this sort of job. Development will continue.
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Promising start :y
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It's a terrible photo, but here's the general idea:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/jgc3l2bn9kzxunr/Sortof.jpg?dl=1)
You can barely see the red cross, so a more powerful laser is definitely needed; my plan is to graduate a horizontal line for the toe, and a radius for the camber. That's once I've figured out where to position the flag, and worked out the distances.
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Keep up the good work.
Once finished, just needs laser-etching 'Nick W Tools Ltd England' on it and you've got a marketable product!
Well impressed so far
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I've machined a longer post, which will put the laser 120mm away from the wheel - twice as far as the original.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/2mqgqkmdj90fqwh/LongerPost.jpg?dl=1)
The post is larger as well as longer, so I might have to reduce its size a bit. The laser is bigger too, at 16mm diameter. I went with a 250mw one as the listing suggests it has a 15metre focusable range and was only £2 more than a 100mw version.
While the lathe was setup for 1.5mm pitch threads I made myself a decent sized wheel fitting stud, as the ones I had are both plastic and very short:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/vw6qvdmt9g2kjd5/WheelFittingStud.jpg?dl=1)
That's 1/2" rod, threaded M12x1.5 and the end rounded off, so it ought to be plenty strong enough for the heavy 17" wheels. I must remember to put it in the car before I lose it ;D
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There might even be a slot for it in the spare wheel foam 8)
Laser guided geometry system looks to be developing nicely :y
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That wheel fitting stud looks very useful, especially for wheel changing on wet nights.
I am not clear exactly how you will set camber and toe-in using your laser tool. What is your plan?
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That wheel fitting stud looks very useful, especially for wheel changing on wet nights.
I am not clear exactly how you will set camber and toe-in using your laser tool. What is your plan?
The flag will have a vertical/horizontal cross marked on it, the centre of which will be at the wheel centre-height and the same distance away from the car's centre line as the laser. The 'vertical' part of the laser cross will read off a graduated arc to measure the camber, and where it crosses the marked horizontal line will display the toe. This will require careful placing off the flag, and some trigonometry to work out the graduations.
The intention is to be able to measure the camber and toe for all 4 wheels with an absolute minimum of setting up. That will involve ensuring that the flag is in the same place each time, and I expect to use a permanent feature(like a mounting bolt, slot etc)under the car to do that.
This sort of job was traditionally done with a string-box around the car, and a lot of extremely fussy setting up, measuring and calculating at each alteration. The commercial 4-wheel alignment rigs use the same principles but the setting up is simplified, and the measuring/calculations hidden from the operator. All of which allow it to be profitably used on many different vehicles.My apparatus is vehicle specific; the custom fixtures should mean the calculations only have to be done once, and the results read directly.
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There might even be a slot for it in the spare wheel foam 8)
Laser guided geometry system looks to be developing nicely :y
That's long gone; I'm using the space for a first aid kit, socket set, screwdrivers, tyre-inflator and foam, hiviz vest etc.
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Stuck to the jack with velcro :-\
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That wheel fitting stud looks very useful, especially for wheel changing on wet nights.
I am not clear exactly how you will set camber and toe-in using your laser tool. What is your plan?
The flag will have a vertical/horizontal cross marked on it, the centre of which will be at the wheel centre-height and the same distance away from the car's centre line as the laser. The 'vertical' part of the laser cross will read off a graduated arc to measure the camber, and where it crosses the marked horizontal line will display the toe. This will require careful placing off the flag, and some trigonometry to work out the graduations.
The intention is to be able to measure the camber and toe for all 4 wheels with an absolute minimum of setting up. That will involve ensuring that the flag is in the same place each time, and I expect to use a permanent feature(like a mounting bolt, slot etc)under the car to do that.
This sort of job was traditionally done with a string-box around the car, and a lot of extremely fussy setting up, measuring and calculating at each alteration. The commercial 4-wheel alignment rigs use the same principles but the setting up is simplified, and the measuring/calculations hidden from the operator. All of which allow it to be profitably used on many different vehicles.My apparatus is vehicle specific; the custom fixtures should mean the calculations only have to be done once, and the results read directly.
Many thanks. The only lasers I have ever seen project a spot with a narrow coherent (parallel) beam. Your laser appears to provide a vertical line; clever. The only wheel alignment I have watched has been at tyre shops, with the car sitting on a ramp with slits or mirrors attached to the front wheels and at a height enabling track rod adjustment. The ramp was presumed horizontal, though all measurements were relative to the other wheel on the same axle. Your method appears to make measurements and settings relative to the vehicle's horizontal and vertical axes; commendable and challenging. I await developments and wish you luck.
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The better laser arrived, so I now have this:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/p2ix72zvip711gw/BiggerLaser.jpg?dl=1)
A comparison:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/2n2zx9tbosaxg4p/LaserComparison.jpg?dl=1)
The new one is 16x68mm and 250mw compared to 12x30 and 5mw. In daylight it projects a nice clear cross along the hallway, unlike the original which had about 1metre range. It came with a 5volt 1amp mains power supply, so my plan is to use a USB powerbank. I've ordered a cylindrical one with an on/off switch, and intend fitting it into another hole in the post. This will keep the whole thing entirely self-contained.
Next step is to do the maths for the readout, which I've been putting off for some reason.
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Keep it up. Looking very good thus far. :)
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The powerbank arrived - it seems I had changed my mind, and ordered a more powerful rectangular one that I can use for other things - so I soldered a USB connector on to the laser wires, and have this:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/pp0340hdf63y8sn/SetupDemo.jpg?dl=1)
The cross is much clearer than it looks in the photo.
And I drew a quick cross on the flag to give an idea of my thinking:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/7cqfwv3c5l1whf4/PrototypeFlag.jpg?dl=1)
Things to do:
1) align the laser cross with the mounting post - I need to find a better spirit level than the £2 plastic thing I use for shelves. We've got one somewhere.
2) The laser needs to be parallel with the ground - the mounting post is square so a spririt level will set that.
3) The readout flag needs to be more robust than the current floppy plastic, g-clamp and offcut of steel channel manage.
4) The markings need to be drawn accurately, and some way of ensuring that the upright line is vertical. A plumb bob should do.