Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Elite_L0ver on 24 February 2017, 18:08:40
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Right iv had a go today at changing the cam kit got brand new gates kit £117+ vat
Fitted it had issue with it vibrating whilst going over top cams i have removed and reinstalled the tensioner upbteen amout of times and i was turning the engine by hand and now the bottom cam is turning but top have stopped turning
Simple question really have i fooked it
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Have you ran the engine or is this all by hand?
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Have you ran the engine or is this all by hand?
It was done buy hand
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Remove and start again
Don't turn the engine over with the ignition.
Fingers crossed ;)
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Remove and start again
Don't turn the engine over with the ignition.
Fingers crossed ;)
I cannot turn the top cams
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Remove and start again
Don't turn the engine over with the ignition.
Fingers crossed ;)
I cannot turn the top cams
Foook
Somebody with more experience should be along soon :(
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Assuming you've only turned the engine by hand, and thus you haven't bent any valves the only reason I can think of that the cams won't turn is because they're hitting the pistons. ie - it's timed wrong. :-\
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Remove and start again
Don't turn the engine over with the ignition.
Fingers crossed ;)
I cannot turn the top cams
i suspect you may have to re-time the engine from scratch. Iirc there's a piece in Haynes about this but I think you'll need a gauge to find TDC on cylinder 1.
As said I think the only reason it won't turn at all is piston-on-valve action :-\
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You have removed the cam lock?
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You have removed the cam lock?
;D ;D ;D
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You have removed the cam lock?
;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D not that stupid (although feel it at moment)
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Assuming you've only turned the engine by hand, and thus you haven't bent any valves the only reason I can think of that the cams won't turn is because they're hitting the pistons. ie - it's timed wrong. :-\
I hope so but i ran out of light theres some oil in plug wells so got to clean that up first then removed all plugs n hope i can retime it
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Do you have a workshop manual that covers the 2.2? its not in the Omega Haynes one, because, well ..... Haynes
I have a frontera manual, which does cover the 2.2. Let me know if you want anything emailed.
Oil in the wells is an easy (ish) one to solve, new gasket and clean the breathers. Although probably the focus should initially be on getting it running ;D
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Do you have a workshop manual that covers the 2.2? its not in the Omega Haynes one, because, well ..... Haynes
I have a frontera manual, which does cover the 2.2. Let me know if you want anything emailed.
Oil in the wells is an easy (ish) one to solve, new gasket and clean the breathers. Although probably the focus should initially be on getting it running ;D
That is the main focus but am going to have ro remove plugs to find tdc n anything you think will help with retiming the engine please ANYTHING :( :( :-[ :'( i need her running at least by monday
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You have removed the cam lock?
;D ;D ;D
You laugh... I had a hell of a job trying to turn the crank first time I tried it on my own... turns out I had left the car in gear and couldn't turn the crank any further than the slop in the flywheel :-[
Point is, don't overlook the obvious ;)
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You have removed the cam lock?
;D ;D ;D
You laugh... I had a hell of a job trying to turn the crank first time I tried it on my own... turns out I had left the car in gear and couldn't turn the crank any further than the slop in the flywheel :-[
Point is, don't overlook the obvious ;)
I wont/havent i just need to get her purring again :'(
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If you've turned it by hand then you are highly unlikely to have done damage - unless you've forced it?
Strip it all apart and start from scratch :y
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If you've turned it by hand then you are highly unlikely to have done damage - unless you've forced it?
Strip it all apart and start from scratch :y
To do the cam reposition do i have to crack the cam bolts that hold cams in a reposition that way after putting c/s in tdc
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If you've turned it by hand then you are highly unlikely to have done damage - unless you've forced it?
Strip it all apart and start from scratch :y
To do the cam reposition do i have to crack the cam bolts that hold cams in a reposition that way after putting c/s in tdc
Look..not being funny...but I think you need to get someone else to do it.
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If you've turned it by hand then you are highly unlikely to have done damage - unless you've forced it?
Strip it all apart and start from scratch :y
To do the cam reposition do i have to crack the cam bolts that hold cams in a reposition that way after putting c/s in tdc
Look..not being funny...but I think you need to get someone else to do it.
Are u offering iv just had a real bad day we all get them but i just need to get it done
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If you've turned it by hand then you are highly unlikely to have done damage - unless you've forced it?
Strip it all apart and start from scratch :y
To do the cam reposition do i have to crack the cam bolts that hold cams in a reposition that way after putting c/s in tdc
Look..not being funny...but I think you need to get someone else to do it.
Are u offering iv just had a real bad day we all get them but i just need to get it done
Me? Oh no..you don't wanna let me near it ;D
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If you've turned it by hand then you are highly unlikely to have done damage - unless you've forced it?
Strip it all apart and start from scratch :y
To do the cam reposition do i have to crack the cam bolts that hold cams in a reposition that way after putting c/s in tdc
Look..not being funny...but I think you need to get someone else to do it.
Are u offering iv just had a real bad day we all get them but i just need to get it done
Me? Oh no..you don't wanna let me near it ;D
Sounded like you were offering your services
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If you've turned it by hand then you are highly unlikely to have done damage - unless you've forced it?
Strip it all apart and start from scratch :y
To do the cam reposition do i have to crack the cam bolts that hold cams in a reposition that way after putting c/s in tdc
Look..not being funny...but I think you need to get someone else to do it.
Are u offering iv just had a real bad day we all get them but i just need to get it done
Me? Oh no..you don't wanna let me near it ;D
Sounded like you were offering your services
That would be a sure fire way of ensuring it never ran again ;)
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If you've turned it by hand then you are highly unlikely to have done damage - unless you've forced it?
Strip it all apart and start from scratch :y
To do the cam reposition do i have to crack the cam bolts that hold cams in a reposition that way after putting c/s in tdc
Look..not being funny...but I think you need to get someone else to do it.
Are u offering iv just had a real bad day we all get them but i just need to get it done
Me? Oh no..you don't wanna let me near it ;D
Sounded like you were offering your services
That would be a sure fire way of ensuring it never ran again ;)
Have i missed something or have i found my brother from another mother distroyer
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You have removed the cam lock?
;D ;D ;D
You laugh... I had a hell of a job trying to turn the crank first time I tried it on my own... turns out I had left the car in gear and couldn't turn the crank any further than the slop in the flywheel :-[
Point is, don't overlook the obvious ;)
I know samebody else doing the same. ; ::) :-[
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I was going to try to post up a how to but thought this link would offer better guidance. It might not be the correct engine code so you will have to take note of your cam markings and alignment marks but the principle is the same.
If you are re-timing it, be VERY careful when repositioning the crank as this is where you can cause damage. DO NOT force anything in to position.
If you have less idlers than the example shown, the principle is still the same regarding the timing marks.
http://replace-timing-belt.com/how-to-replace-timing-belt-on-vauxhallopel-frontera-b-2-2i/
Good luck. :y
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Let's start simply
Set the crank to 90 degrees before or after TDC, then set the cams and lock them. Then set the crank to TDC and fit the cambelt
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Thank you EVERYONE for your help i have managed to get myself a copy of autodata this evening and this has given me the exact same info so plan is
1) Restart by removing Belt
2) manually time engine up to TDC as per
Let's start simply
Set the crank to 90 degrees before or after TDC, then set the cams and lock them. Then set the crank to TDC and fit the cambelt
3) Follow instructions/autodata to the t again
I was going to try to post up a how to but thought this link would offer better guidance. It might not be the correct engine code so you will have to take note of your cam markings and alignment marks but the principle is the same.
If you are re-timing it, be VERY careful when repositioning the crank as this is where you can cause damage. DO NOT force anything in to position.
If you have less idlers than the example shown, the principle is still the same regarding the timing marks.
http://replace-timing-belt.com/how-to-replace-timing-belt-on-vauxhallopel-frontera-b-2-2i/
Good luck. :y
4) Hope and pray once reassembled and hand turned
Wish me Luck :y
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I was going to try to post up a how to but thought this link would offer better guidance. It might not be the correct engine code so you will have to take note of your cam markings and alignment marks but the principle is the same.
If you are re-timing it, be VERY careful when repositioning the crank as this is where you can cause damage. DO NOT force anything in to position.
If you have less idlers than the example shown, the principle is still the same regarding the timing marks.
http://replace-timing-belt.com/how-to-replace-timing-belt-on-vauxhallopel-frontera-b-2-2i/
Good luck. :y
Thank you EVERYONE i managed to get myself a copy of autodata this evening and this has given me the exact same info so plan is
1) Restart by removing Belt
2) manually time engine up to TDC
3) Follow above instructions/autodata to the t again
4) Hope and pray once reassembled
Wish me Luck :y
Let's start simply
Set the crank to 90 degrees before or after TDC, then set the cams and lock them. Then set the crank to TDC and fit the cambelt
Follow Mark's advice above regarding setting the crank to a safe position first though. :y
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I was going to try to post up a how to but thought this link would offer better guidance. It might not be the correct engine code so you will have to take note of your cam markings and alignment marks but the principle is the same.
If you are re-timing it, be VERY careful when repositioning the crank as this is where you can cause damage. DO NOT force anything in to position.
If you have less idlers than the example shown, the principle is still the same regarding the timing marks.
http://replace-timing-belt.com/how-to-replace-timing-belt-on-vauxhallopel-frontera-b-2-2i/
Good luck. :y
Thank you EVERYONE i managed to get myself a copy of autodata this evening and this has given me the exact same info so plan is
1) Restart by removing Belt
2) manually time engine up to TDC
3) Follow above instructions/autodata to the t again
4) Hope and pray once reassembled
Wish me Luck :y
Let's start simply
Set the crank to 90 degrees before or after TDC, then set the cams and lock them. Then set the crank to TDC and fit the cambelt
Follow Mark's advice above regarding setting the crank to a safe position first though. :y
I was editing to say that but i will let you know how it goes :y :P ;D
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Done more of these cambelts and top end v6 rebuilds than I care to remember - I will gladly take a trip over for the cost of fuel and a small contribution to my "fix the beemer" fund :y
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Done more of these cambelts and top end v6 rebuilds than I care to remember - I will gladly take a trip over for the cost of fuel and a small contribution to my "fix the beemer" fund :y
JamesV6CDX I very much appreciate it it is now running after a mate of mine come over and give me a hand it was 180* out timing wise so started from scratch and although its running the best way i can discribe is it sounds like a diesel with the belt vibrating on top between the cams but is taught everywhere else any ideas
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Belt a tooth off at the top, remove it, position and retension it correctly.
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Belt a tooth off at the top, remove it, position and retension it correctly.
Both marks lined up though is it ok to run
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Belt a tooth off at the top, remove it, position and retension it correctly.
(https://s9.postimg.org/53oiail2z/IMG_1269.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/53oiail2z/)
This were the marks after we turned it by hand
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Without seeing it, id suggest rotating each cam half a tooth so you get one less belt tooth in between them, before you tension it.
Clear as mud, I fear
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Done more of these cambelts and top end v6 rebuilds than I care to remember - I will gladly take a trip over for the cost of fuel and a small contribution to my "fix the beemer" fund :y
JamesV6CDX I very much appreciate it it is now running after a mate of mine come over and give me a hand it was 180* out timing wise so started from scratch and although its running the best way i can discribe is it sounds like a diesel with the belt vibrating on top between the cams but is taught everywhere else any ideas
Is there a piece of crap stuck between the teeth in one of the cam pulleys?
Is the spring tensioner set correctly? I can't see the spring tensioner clearly enough to tell in your photo.
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Done more of these cambelts and top end v6 rebuilds than I care to remember - I will gladly take a trip over for the cost of fuel and a small contribution to my "fix the beemer" fund :y
JamesV6CDX I very much appreciate it it is now running after a mate of mine come over and give me a hand it was 180* out timing wise so started from scratch and although its running the best way i can discribe is it sounds like a diesel with the belt vibrating on top between the cams but is taught everywhere else any ideas
Is there a piece of crap stuck between the teeth in one of the cam pulleys?
Did not see anything i dont think there was
Is the spring tensioner set correctly? I can't see the spring tensioner clearly enough to tell in your photo.
I followed autodata to a t to tension belt! It only pulls back when at low speeds or pedal released
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Done more of these cambelts and top end v6 rebuilds than I care to remember - I will gladly take a trip over for the cost of fuel and a small contribution to my "fix the beemer" fund :y
JamesV6CDX I very much appreciate it it is now running after a mate of mine come over and give me a hand it was 180* out timing wise so started from scratch and although its running the best way i can discribe is it sounds like a diesel with the belt vibrating on top between the cams but is taught everywhere else any ideas
Should be impossible surely :-\ Bit like saying the tyre is only flat at the bottom... So unless the valves are clipping the piston... ? ???
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Long and the short, it isn't timed properly. Does the cam lock fit in the cams when the crank is set correctly?
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Done more of these cambelts and top end v6 rebuilds than I care to remember - I will gladly take a trip over for the cost of fuel and a small contribution to my "fix the beemer" fund :y
We are in talks now guys and looks like JamesV6CDX will be over to help sort it tuesday TO WORK HIS MAGIC
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You will never regret it - James is ACE! How do I know? He did mine and his attention to detail is beyond reproach; he's a great bloke, too.
James, if you happen to read this, TAKE IT EASY! :y
Ron.
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Yeah, looking at that picture, the left cam looks like the mark is in line with the timing mark on the block, but it shouldn't, because the camera is not bang in front of the cam. I would say that the cam should be half a tooth anti clockwise.
This would also explain the slop in the belt between the cams. My guess is the tensioner isn't set correctly to pull the slop out.
Glad you have James coming over. By all accounts he's a mechanical whizz and a top guy to boot.
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You will never regret it - James is ACE! How do I know? He did mine and his attention to detail is beyond reproach; he's a great bloke, too.
James, if you happen to read this, TAKE IT EASY! :y
Ron.
Yeah, looking at that picture, the left cam looks like the mark is in line with the timing mark on the block, but it shouldn't, because the camera is not bang in front of the cam. I would say that the cam should be half a tooth anti clockwise.
This would also explain the slop in the belt between the cams. My guess is the tensioner isn't set correctly to pull the slop out.
Glad you have James coming over. By all accounts he's a mechanical whizz and a top guy to boot.
Thank you guys i dont think i have made a bad decision (apart from rushing to do it myself) it is being left for James magic hands 🙌🤞👍
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Yeah, looking at that picture, the left cam looks like the mark is in line with the timing mark on the block, but it shouldn't, because the camera is not bang in front of the cam. I would say that the cam should be half a tooth anti clockwise.
This would also explain the slop in the belt between the cams. My guess is the tensioner isn't set correctly to pull the slop out.
Glad you have James coming over. By all accounts he's a mechanical whizz and a top guy to boot.
Makes no sense to me squire... the belt pulls the sprockets round not t'other way round. If the belt ain't moderately tight it don't pull the sprocket. ???
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Yeah, looking at that picture, the left cam looks like the mark is in line with the timing mark on the block, but it shouldn't, because the camera is not bang in front of the cam. I would say that the cam should be half a tooth anti clockwise.
This would also explain the slop in the belt between the cams. My guess is the tensioner isn't set correctly to pull the slop out.
Glad you have James coming over. By all accounts he's a mechanical whizz and a top guy to boot.
Makes no sense to me squire... the belt pulls the sprockets round not t'other way round. If the belt ain't moderately tight it don't pull the sprocket. ???
I'm not going to lie I'm worried about valve contact on this one. Especially if it sounds like a diesel and has been ran with an incorrect belt setup
But one step at a time. :y
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Good to see you have James on board now, he knows what he's at so you are in good hands. :y
I suspect that on a lot of these jobs the mistake is lack of belt tautness between the crankshaft and the exhaust cam No.2 when installing the belt anti-clockwise from crankshaft to cam 2. This side of the cam belt has no adjustment so if the very first stage is wrong it will all go to pot after that, regardless of how good the initial set up was. As there is only an idler on that side, once any slack is introduced between cam 2 and the crank, the crank will take up that slack when turned so you will already be looking at up to a tooth out. Cam 1 is not such an issue as the adjuster will tension the belt on that side.
As James said, the concern is what occurred prior to you getting it running. :-\ Hopefully any updates will be positive ones. :)
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Good to see you have James on board now, he knows what he's at so you are in good hands. :y
I suspect that on a lot of these jobs the mistake is lack of belt tautness between the crankshaft and the exhaust cam No.2 when installing the belt anti-clockwise from crankshaft to cam 2. This side of the cam belt has no adjustment so if the very first stage is wrong it will all go to pot after that, regardless of how good the initial set up was. As there is only an idler on that side, once any slack is introduced between cam 2 and the crank, the crank will take up that slack when turned so you will already be looking at up to a tooth out. Cam 1 is not such an issue as the adjuster will tension the belt on that side.
As James said, the concern is what occurred prior to you getting it running. :-\ Hopefully any updates will be positive ones. :)
I hope so i really do i know i have chosen right with JamesV6CDX and his magic hands :y🙌👏
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Makes no sense to me squire... the belt pulls the sprockets round not t'other way round. If the belt ain't moderately tight it don't pull the sprocket. ???
Sorry, didn't explain very well. This is what I actually meant:
I suspect that on a lot of these jobs the mistake is lack of belt tautness between the crankshaft and the exhaust cam No.2 when installing the belt anti-clockwise from crankshaft to cam 2. This side of the cam belt has no adjustment so if the very first stage is wrong it will all go to pot after that, regardless of how good the initial set up was. As there is only an idler on that side, once any slack is introduced between cam 2 and the crank, the crank will take up that slack when turned so you will already be looking at up to a tooth out. Cam 1 is not such an issue as the adjuster will tension the belt on that side.
As James said, the concern is what occurred prior to you getting it running. :-\ Hopefully any updates will be positive ones. :)
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Makes no sense to me squire... the belt pulls the sprockets round not t'other way round. If the belt ain't moderately tight it don't pull the sprocket. ???
Sorry, didn't explain very well. This is what I actually meant:
I suspect that on a lot of these jobs the mistake is lack of belt tautness between the crankshaft and the exhaust cam No.2 when installing the belt anti-clockwise from crankshaft to cam 2. This side of the cam belt has no adjustment so if the very first stage is wrong it will all go to pot after that, regardless of how good the initial set up was. As there is only an idler on that side, once any slack is introduced between cam 2 and the crank, the crank will take up that slack when turned so you will already be looking at up to a tooth out. Cam 1 is not such an issue as the adjuster will tension the belt on that side.
As James said, the concern is what occurred prior to you getting it running. :-\ Hopefully any updates will be positive ones. :)
This is the exact mistacke thats been made here :-[ :-[ i hope so
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Good to see you have James on board now, he knows what he's at so you are in good hands. :y
I suspect that on a lot of these jobs the mistake is lack of belt tautness between the crankshaft and the exhaust cam No.2 when installing the belt anti-clockwise from crankshaft to cam 2. This side of the cam belt has no adjustment so if the very first stage is wrong it will all go to pot after that, regardless of how good the initial set up was. As there is only an idler on that side, once any slack is introduced between cam 2 and the crank, the crank will take up that slack when turned so you will already be looking at up to a tooth out. Cam 1 is not such an issue as the adjuster will tension the belt on that side.
As James said, the concern is what occurred prior to you getting it running. :-\ Hopefully any updates will be positive ones. :)
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Still planning to come over but just thinking this over - how did you end up 180 out?
One and only reason for asking is I'm thinking about likelihood of valves damage
I will bring compression tester :y
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Still planning to come over but just thinking this over - how did you end up 180 out?
One and only reason for asking is I'm thinking about likelihood of valves damage
I will bring compression tester :y
Guessing that he set to TDC on the exhaust stroke instead of TDC on the compression stroke. :-\
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Still planning to come over but just thinking this over - how did you end up 180 out?
One and only reason for asking is I'm thinking about likelihood of valves damage
I will bring compression tester :y
I mis understood makings on c/s the outer mark i set to needle and it should of been to mark at bottom im now completley dishartened now and hope and prey are we still on for tuesday for price agreed
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Should be fine to come over tues. I can't wave a magic wand without seeing but I can guarantee either a fix or a diagnosis of valve damage. It will be one or the other.
Price wise £50 to cover fuel and the obligatory travel lattes will cover the diagnosis and correction of the belt setup :y
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Sweet £50 it is i hope for my sake its not the latter
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Should be fine to come over tues. I can't wave a magic wand without seeing but I can guarantee either a fix or a diagnosis of valve damage. It will be one or the other.
Price wise £50 to cover fuel and the obligatory travel lattes will cover the diagnosis and correction of the belt setup :y
Iv heard you are the man that can
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Should be fine to come over tues. I can't wave a magic wand without seeing but I can guarantee either a fix or a diagnosis of valve damage. It will be one or the other.
Price wise £50 to cover fuel and the obligatory travel lattes will cover the diagnosis and correction of the belt setup :y
Iv heard you are the man that can
James is the man that can sort it....if the timing is out. If the valves have had intercourse with the pistons.......that's a different story, I'm afraid.
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Should be fine to come over tues. I can't wave a magic wand without seeing but I can guarantee either a fix or a diagnosis of valve damage. It will be one or the other.
Price wise £50 to cover fuel and the obligatory travel lattes will cover the diagnosis and correction of the belt setup :y
Iv heard you are the man that can
James is the man that can sort it....if the timing is out. If the valves have had intercourse with the pistons.......that's a different story, I'm afraid.
Not necessarily :y
If there is valve damage there's a good chance it can be saved. Will just take more time than a day :y
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Should be fine to come over tues. I can't wave a magic wand without seeing but I can guarantee either a fix or a diagnosis of valve damage. It will be one or the other.
Price wise £50 to cover fuel and the obligatory travel lattes will cover the diagnosis and correction of the belt setup :y
Iv heard you are the man that can
James is the man that can sort it....if the timing is out. If the valves have had intercourse with the pistons.......that's a different story, I'm afraid.
Not necessarily :y
If there is valve damage there's a good chance it can be saved. Will just take more time than a day :y
I don't think £50 will cover it ;D
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Pleased you have someone to help now, would have been more than happy to call and see if I could help. Unfortunately it's another five weeks before I'm passing Eastleigh, which is of no help at all.
Hope you get it sorted.
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We shall see tomorro 👌🤞🤞🤞🤞🤞🤞🤞 :y
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Still planning to come over but just thinking this over - how did you end up 180 out?
One and only reason for asking is I'm thinking about likelihood of valves damage
I will bring compression tester :y
Guessing that he set to TDC on the exhaust stroke instead of TDC on the compression stroke. :-\
Now you're muddling me. There is a TDC crank position for exhaust stroke and power stroke. Which stroke it is on depends upon the position of the cams. If you set the camshafts with the pulley marks aligned with the backplate marks and the crank pulley aligned with its line marker you can't be wrong. The cam sensor will tell the ECU which stroke it's on, and fire and inject accordingly.
So out by 360 degrees is not out at all. Out by 180 degrees is bad news, but means having cams set to markers with crank line set the top, very careless.
Am I muddled?
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Still planning to come over but just thinking this over - how did you end up 180 out?
One and only reason for asking is I'm thinking about likelihood of valves damage
I will bring compression tester :y
Guessing that he set to TDC on the exhaust stroke instead of TDC on the compression stroke. :-\
Now you're muddling me. There is a TDC crank position for exhaust stroke and power stroke. Which stroke it is on depends upon the position of the cams. If you set the camshafts with the pulley marks aligned with the backplate marks and the crank pulley aligned with its line marker you can't be wrong. The cam sensor will tell the ECU which stroke it's on, and fire and inject accordingly.
So out by 360 degrees is not out at all. Out by 180 degrees is bad news, but means having cams set to markers with crank line set the top, very careless.
Am I muddled?
Good question well presented would be intrested to know :y
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Still planning to come over but just thinking this over - how did you end up 180 out?
One and only reason for asking is I'm thinking about likelihood of valves damage
I will bring compression tester :y
Guessing that he set to TDC on the exhaust stroke instead of TDC on the compression stroke. :-\
Now you're muddling me. There is a TDC crank position for exhaust stroke and power stroke. Which stroke it is on depends upon the position of the cams. If you set the camshafts with the pulley marks aligned with the backplate marks and the crank pulley aligned with its line marker you can't be wrong. The cam sensor will tell the ECU which stroke it's on, and fire and inject accordingly.
So out by 360 degrees is not out at all. Out by 180 degrees is bad news, but means having cams set to markers with crank line set the top, very careless.
Am I muddled?
No, you are not muddled Terry. You are correct in what you say assuming that the belt was STILL IN PLACE during the set-up. :y With the crank marks aligned and the cams set to the alignment marks WITH THE BELT FITTED all will be fine............. but..............if the belt was removed with the cams set, and then somebody decides to rotate the crank to the alignment marks, they can end up on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke. Highly unlikely in this case as it's more likely to happen if a belt has snapped.
In this case though, the OP admits that he'd set the cams with the crank pointer facing upwards, instead of downwards if I've understood this correctly. As two crank rotations are roughly one cam rotation the cams could not have been set correctly either in this case. :-\ Which makes me think that the crank was rotated when the belt was off.
So, as you say, with the initial set-up carried out with the belt fitted there would be no issue. If however, the crank was rotated with the belt off, you could end up 180 out.
Hope that makes sense.
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Still planning to come over but just thinking this over - how did you end up 180 out?
One and only reason for asking is I'm thinking about likelihood of valves damage
I will bring compression tester :y
Guessing that he set to TDC on the exhaust stroke instead of TDC on the compression stroke. :-\
Now you're muddling me. There is a TDC crank position for exhaust stroke and power stroke. Which stroke it is on depends upon the position of the cams. If you set the camshafts with the pulley marks aligned with the backplate marks and the crank pulley aligned with its line marker you can't be wrong. The cam sensor will tell the ECU which stroke it's on, and fire and inject accordingly.
So out by 360 degrees is not out at all. Out by 180 degrees is bad news, but means having cams set to markers with crank line set the top, very careless.
Am I muddled?
No, you are not muddled Terry. You are correct in what you say assuming that the belt was STILL IN PLACE during the set-up. :y With the crank marks aligned and the cams set to the alignment marks WITH THE BELT FITTED all will be fine............. but..............if the belt was removed with the cams set, and then somebody decides to rotate the crank to the alignment marks, they can end up on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke. Highly unlikely in this case as it's more likely to happen if a belt has snapped.
In this case though, the OP admits that he'd set the cams with the crank pointer facing upwards, instead of downwards if I've understood this correctly. As two crank rotations are roughly one cam rotation the cams could not have been set correctly either in this case. :-\ Which makes me think that the crank was rotated when the belt was off.
So, as you say, with the initial set-up carried out with the belt fitted there would be no issue. If however, the crank was rotated with the belt off, you could end up 180 out.
Hope that makes sense.
Having read my post above I note that my explanation regarding 180 out is still not that clear so I'll try again. ;D
With the cambelt fitted, cams locked and aligned and the crank aligned all looks good. This would result in an easy belt change. :y
Now, remove the cambelt with the cams still locked, rotate the crank 360 and refit the belt. All still looks good as the marks all line up but TDC is now on the exhaust stroke i.e. 180 out. As the crank has two rotations to the cams one rotation it would be out. Or am I reading this wrong? :-\
However, the OP had the crank set to the wrong orientation to start with so had no chance.
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Having read my post above I note that my explanation regarding 180 out is still not that clear so I'll try again. ;D
With the cambelt fitted, cams locked and aligned and the crank aligned all looks good. This would result in an easy belt change. :y
Now, remove the cambelt with the cams still locked, rotate the crank 360 and refit the belt. All still looks good as the marks all line up but TDC is now on the exhaust stroke i.e. 180 out. As the crank has two rotations to the cams one rotation it would be out. Or am I reading this wrong? :-\
However, the OP had the crank set to the wrong orientation to start with so had no chance.
Ignore my ramblings above. :-[ I was trying to work out what the OP had done before we were told that the crank was 180 out to start with. ::)
I see Terry's point now. :y
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Still planning to come over but just thinking this over - how did you end up 180 out?
One and only reason for asking is I'm thinking about likelihood of valves damage
I will bring compression tester :y
Guessing that he set to TDC on the exhaust stroke instead of TDC on the compression stroke. :-\
Now you're muddling me. There is a TDC crank position for exhaust stroke and power stroke. Which stroke it is on depends upon the position of the cams. If you set the camshafts with the pulley marks aligned with the backplate marks and the crank pulley aligned with its line marker you can't be wrong. The cam sensor will tell the ECU which stroke it's on, and fire and inject accordingly.
So out by 360 degrees is not out at all. Out by 180 degrees is bad news, but means having cams set to markers with crank line set the top, very careless.
Am I muddled?
No, you are not muddled Terry. You are correct in what you say assuming that the belt was STILL IN PLACE during the set-up. :y With the crank marks aligned and the cams set to the alignment marks WITH THE BELT FITTED all will be fine............. but..............if the belt was removed with the cams set, and then somebody decides to rotate the crank to the alignment marks, they can end up on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke. Highly unlikely in this case as it's more likely to happen if a belt has snapped.
In this case though, the OP admits that he'd set the cams with the crank pointer facing upwards, instead of downwards if I've understood this correctly. As two crank rotations are roughly one cam rotation the cams could not have been set correctly either in this case. :-\ Which makes me think that the crank was rotated when the belt was off.
So, as you say, with the initial set-up carried out with the belt fitted there would be no issue. If however, the crank was rotated with the belt off, you could end up 180 out.
Hope that makes sense.
Having read my post above I note that my explanation regarding 180 out is still not that clear so I'll try again. ;D
With the cambelt fitted, cams locked and aligned and the crank aligned all looks good. This would result in an easy belt change. :y
Now, remove the cambelt with the cams still locked, rotate the crank 360 and refit the belt. All still looks good as the marks all line up but TDC is now on the exhaust stroke i.e. 180 out. As the crank has two rotations to the cams one rotation it would be out. Or am I reading this wrong? :-\
However, the OP had the crank set to the wrong orientation to start with so had no chance.
Never remove the cam belt and rotate the crankshaft 360 degrees. That will certainly bend valves as some valves will be open.
Safe valve condition check procedure is to set engine to TDC, i.e. cams aligned with back plate marks and crank also aligned. Then remove belt and turn crank 60 degrees clockwise to park pistons out of harms way. Then rotate each camshaft in turn 360 degrees and note if at any time it becomes slack; if it does, valve bending has taken place. If not, all is well. If all well, relign cam pulleys with marks and lock them, turn crank back to TDC and lock it, and proceed with belt fitting as normal.
Above assumes we are talking V6. If straight 4, turn crank back 90 degrees.
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The only thing that defines the difference between the exhaust and compression strokes is the position of the cams relative to the crank. It's not possible to have the crank incorrectly positioned in this respect. You can have the engine components in any position, then turn the crank to a "safe" position, turn the cams to align their markings, bring the crank up to TDC No.1 and fit the belt and it'll work.
The most important aspect is to protect the valves from damage hence we ordinarily lock the engine components in position at TDC No.1 and don't move anything while the belt is off. If something goes wrong, then the first thing to do is to turn the crank off TDC.
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Never remove the cam belt and rotate the crankshaft 360 degrees. That will certainly bend valves as some valves will be open.
This was the point that I tried, badly, to convey. :y My example was a 'what not to do' and merely to explain how quickly it can go pear shaped by rotating the crank to achieve the timing marks when not in a 'safe' position. :y
The OP said in his first post that 'the crankshaft moves but the cams don't', hence my example of where it can all go wrong. :y
The OP setting the crank 180 out in the first place hadn't crossed my mind at that point.
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!!!!!UPDATE!!!!! IT IS NOT FOOKED
Had james who is a top bloke let loose on my issues and seriously an hour and half later the car is running a dream (ven better than before)
ANYONE who want the cambelt done on their car i HIGHLY reccomend JamesV6CDX and his magic hands 🙌
Im sure he will be along shortly to explain the tech terms but i am one happy customer
Thanks James Spot on 👌👌🤝🤝👍👍
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Well done James another happy customer :y
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Another OOF legend! :y 8)
Ron.
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That's a relief. Nice one James :y
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Job jobbed :y
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Well done James another happy customer :y
Job jobbed :y
That's a relief. Nice one James :y
Yep Very Happy 😁😁😁😅 :y
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A few problems with led to the overall issue
1) Previous mechanic had put tippex marks in very odd places on the crank and cam sprockets, which I think the OP may have confused with the actual, proper marks - which, were not highlighted and harder to spot.
2) Water pump "lug" was not sat in the cut out of the rear metallic timing cover, causing an overall loss of tension on the belt setup.
Once crank set to 90deg ATDC and cams locked, pump correct and belt popped back on, she runs like a goodun with a healthy 200+psi per cylinder :y
I forgot how nice the 4 pot was to work on :)
My personal opinion is fair play to the OP for having a crack at it... :y
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A few problems with led to the overall issue
1) Previous mechanic had put tippex marks in very odd places on the crank and cam sprockets, which I think the OP may have confused with the actual, proper marks - which, were not highlighted and harder to spot.
2) Water pump "lug" was not sat in the cut out of the rear metallic timing cover, causing an overall loss of tension on the belt setup.
Once crank set to 90deg ATDC and cams locked, pump correct and belt popped back on, she runs like a goodun with a healthy 200+psi per cylinder :y
I forgot how nice the 4 pot was to work on :)
My personal opinion is fair play to the OP for having a crack at it... :y
You lucky bar steward :D That's not bad going for an old car :)
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If there are any doubts about timing, unreadable marks unknown engine or anything else comes around..try this:
If it is a 4 pot 4 stroke 1-3-4-2 engine like the Omega, turn the first cylinder on TDC. If there is no mark on the crank, use a pencil through the sparking hole to find TDC. Remove the valve cover. Turn the crank carefully by hand in running direction. Stop when you feel any mechanical resistance. Watch cylinder 4 valves. After two crank turns, cylinder 4 valves must go on overlapping, means all 4 valves are in motion for a very short moment. If this happens, timing is OK. If this happens after one crank turn, you started with the exhaust TDC. No problem. Find the other TDC and do it again. OK? If cylinder 1 is in ignition TDC, cylinder 4 must have overlapping valve movements.
Anything else indicates serious timing problems.
Rolf
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A few problems with led to the overall issue
1) Previous mechanic had put tippex marks in very odd places on the crank and cam sprockets, which I think the OP may have confused with the actual, proper marks - which, were not highlighted and harder to spot.
2) Water pump "lug" was not sat in the cut out of the rear metallic timing cover, causing an overall loss of tension on the belt setup.
Once crank set to 90deg ATDC and cams locked, pump correct and belt popped back on, she runs like a goodun with a healthy 200+psi per cylinder :y
I forgot how nice the 4 pot was to work on :)
My personal opinion is fair play to the OP for having a crack at it... :y
Thanks james but i wont be doing it again *nudge
I am having another issue though keep getting P0170 fuel trim when left ideling any ideas
She is a beaut i plan on doing sills and polybush it on rear and then a little customisation and shes just the way i want her and will keep me happy for many years im sure
Again big shout out to James magic hands 🙌👏🙌👏 thanks buddy & Milly the dog
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I am having another issue though keep getting P0170 fuel trim when left ideling any ideas
Check for air leaks
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I am having another issue though keep getting P0170 fuel trim when left ideling any ideas
Check for air leaks
Done I must of missed the bolt for the TB slightly came off and pipe that connects to air box leaking air would this increase fuel consumption!!
And just to add more misery :P :-[
(https://s9.postimg.org/bu2p15hx7/IMG_1284.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/bu2p15hx7/)
reckon I can get it repaired >:( (ftp://>:() 😤😤😤😩😩😩💨💨
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No, too close to the sidewall.
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No, too close to the sidewall.
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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There is a company near me that is able to repair those, costs about twice normal. :y
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There is a company near me that is able to repair those, costs about twice normal. :y
Because it's not legal :-X
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And its not legal because its potentially lethal.
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The puncture has got to be in the middle two thirds to be repaired.
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Better buying a budget tyre than an attempted repair on that :y
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There is a company near me that is able to repair those, costs about twice normal. :y
Because it's not legal :-X
Hmmm, not the advice I was given. I believe it was vulcanised in accordance with the British Standard regulations at the time. It certainly allowed me to continue to use an almost brand new tyre until its normal wear limit. The puncture I had IIRC, was virtually identical to the one pictured.
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There is a company near me that is able to repair those, costs about twice normal. :y
Because it's not legal :-X
Hmmm, not the advice I was given. I believe it was vulcanised in accordance with the British Standard regulations at the time. It certainly allowed me to continue to use an almost brand new tyre until its normal wear limit. The puncture I had IIRC, was virtually identical to the one pictured.
Indeed, it's not illegal to repair outside the central 3/4 but you can't just plug it - which is what most tyre fitting places are kitted out to do - they require hot vulcanising on the internal surface after a repair patch is placed.
http://www.btmauk.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Minor-repairs-to-passenger-car-and-light-van-tyres.pdf
tl;dr: BS AU 159 states that repairs in the 'major repair' area (outside the central 3/4) must be undertaken by an approved repairer and the inside of the tyre should be clearly marked alongside the area "BS AU 159" along with the repairer's details.
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EDIT: beaten to the punch by aaronjb ::) ;D
There is a company near me that is able to repair those, costs about twice normal. :y
Because it's not legal :-X
Hmmm, not the advice I was given. I believe it was vulcanised in accordance with the British Standard regulations at the time. It certainly allowed me to continue to use an almost brand new tyre until its normal wear limit. The puncture I had IIRC, was virtually identical to the one pictured.
Repairing outside of the Treaded area IS legal under BS AU 159(British Standard). HOWEVER, it is classified as a Major repair and not a Minor repair (the kind that can be glued and plugged). However, the big tyre sheds would prefer to use the words "can't" or "illegal" rather than admitting they don't do it. After all, they aren't going to be able to sell you a new one if they do that are they? ::)
The standard divides the tyre into areas T (treaded) and W(wall), and specifies the types of repairs that can be done in each area. Sadly I can't find a full text of the standard anywhere without paying for it, but there are places that will do it. It is worth noting that a Major repair will preclude any further repairs on the same tyre.
Whether you trust a tyre repaired in that way is a matter for the end user of course.
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All the factual info you need is here:
http://www.btmauk.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Minor-repairs-to-passenger-car-and-light-van-tyres.pdf
It gives guideline percentages but, it differs from tyre to tyre and the fundamental requirement is that the repair must only be made where the steel re-enforcing exists and must be a set distance from the edge of the steel for the repair to be sound and safe.
So it may be repairable but you would only be able to tell from the inside sadly as you can usually see the steel and make a correct judgement.
That said there are far more advanced repair techniques which can repair any part of a tyre (although its rarely economically viable on a car tyre)
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http://www.etyres.co.uk/repairable-area-gauge/
This explains the bare bones of it :y
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http://www.etyres.co.uk/repairable-area-gauge/
This explains the bare bones of it :y
This is exactly what I was talking about,
Because a tyre curves away from the middle of where the tyre rolls on the road, only the centre area is repairable. Sidewalls are not repairable.
The highlighted text is an out and out lie. ::)
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I had a repairable puncture on my last Insignia, 20" wheels and no spare... tyre place took it off to repair it only to announce that the tyre was toast as most of the inside of the sidewalls had broken down. Initially they refused to refit it until I pointed out that with no spare, it would be stuck on their ramp until I could get a replacement tyre, which being a Thursday lunchtime, meant Tuesday ::)
They grudgingly refitted it unrepaired and sent me away. The only silver lining was that they couldn't charge me as that would have left a papertrail acknowledging that they had done so :-X
Replacement tyre was ordered that day and fitted the following week, solving the issue.
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http://www.etyres.co.uk/repairable-area-gauge/
This explains the bare bones of it :y
This is exactly what I was talking about,
Because a tyre curves away from the middle of where the tyre rolls on the road, only the centre area is repairable. Sidewalls are not repairable.
The highlighted text is an out and out lie. ::)
Fair dos :y
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So is it repairable :D ;D
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So is it repairable :D ;D
Find a local qualified firm and check with them, but it looks as though you may be able to get it repaired. I was lucky, as my local tyre guy referred me to the vulcaniser with the same advice.:y