Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: philhoward on 03 August 2008, 21:12:21
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My never ending saga of trying to run on LPG...
Some daft muppet (me) fitted his 3/4 full s/h tank effectively upside down and wondered why i couldn't get enough gas out. Have now turned the tank the "right" way temporarily, but can't get a puff of gas out. Solenoid is working (makes a lovely echo-y tick), but i suspect that the excess flow valve has been well upset by the upside down saga.
First question - how do you "reset" one that's (apparently) stuck shut?
Second one (in case there isn't a solution for the first question) - how do you get rid of about 60 litres of gas in order to change the multivalve if the outlet is shut?
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just out of interest....... You have checked the manual shut off valve haven't you??? ::) ::) ::)
It'll most likely be a little wheel to turn...
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just out of interest....... You have checked the manual shut off valve haven't you??? ::) ::) ::)
It'll most likely be a little wheel to turn...
That was the reason it didn't work the first time....when the tank was "upside down"...
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Just a thought, because I made that mistake ::) ::) :-[ :-[ ;) ;)
Just for peace of mind I'd try it the other way too :-? :-? :-?
You've nothing to lose by it and you may have turned it off instead of on :y :y :y
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My never ending saga of trying to run on LPG...
Some daft muppet (me) fitted his 3/4 full s/h tank effectively upside down and wondered why i couldn't get enough gas out. Have now turned the tank the "right" way temporarily, but can't get a puff of gas out. Solenoid is working (makes a lovely echo-y tick), but i suspect that the excess flow valve has been well upset by the upside down saga.
First question - how do you "reset" one that's (apparently) stuck shut?
Second one (in case there isn't a solution for the first question) - how do you get rid of about 60 litres of gas in order to change the multivalve if the outlet is shut?
Easy wear gardening gloves and undo the valve and run ;D It wont take long to empty itself ;D
Actually i dont think there is an easy way to empty a tank apart from the above.......
I know when i had a tank leak......albeit a small one, the lpg installer told me to bring it back when i'd run out of lpg......coz he reckoned he'd only waste it and also wasn't legally allowed to 'loose' the lpg to the air.
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Not supposed to vent LPG to atmosphere except in emergency!!! If you do... Usual safety precautions... Open space, not near drains/pits etc and NO NAKED FLAMES or sources of ignition!!! ::) ::) ::)
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never heard of an excess flow valve,what the eck is that?
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never heard of an excess flow valve,what the eck is that?
It's a backup system for if the fuel lines got damaged.... I think!!! :-/ :-/ :-/
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never heard of an excess flow valve,what the eck is that?
It's a backup system for if the fuel lines got damaged.... I think!!! :-/ :-/ :-/
Yep. If liquid flow from the tank exceeds a certain rate it shuts the service valve. It will flow enough liquid for the engine but will shut it off if the pipe is open due to damage, for example.
Kevin
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never heard of an excess flow valve,what the eck is that?
It's a backup system for if the fuel lines got damaged.... I think!!! :-/ :-/ :-/
Yep. If liquid flow from the tank exceeds a certain rate it shuts the service valve. It will flow enough liquid for the engine but will shut it off if the pipe is open due to damage, for example.
Kevin
Thanks Kevin... As I was typing I wasn't 100% sure ::) ::) ::)
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never heard of an excess flow valve,what the eck is that?
It's a backup system for if the fuel lines got damaged.... I think!!! :-/ :-/ :-/
Excess flow/one way valve - basically if the valve sees too high a flow rate (i.e. a split pipe) it shuts off the flow from the tank. Apparently they can cause problems on multivalve tanks (but not 4 hole tanks, from what I gather..?). Trick in my case is getting the valve to re-open!
Lazydocker - have tried it open, shut, half way, solenoid on, solenoid off. Even tried a gentle tap with a hammer in each of those configurations...
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i have had the supply line out of a tank (4 hole )there is no valve underneath the solenoid, just a big hole.bit of a shock tho as i did'nt realise it had gas inside ;D
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never heard of an excess flow valve,what the eck is that?
It's a backup system for if the fuel lines got damaged.... I think!!! :-/ :-/ :-/
Excess flow/one way valve - basically if the valve sees too high a flow rate (i.e. a split pipe) it shuts off the flow from the tank. Apparently they can cause problems on multivalve tanks (but not 4 hole tanks, from what I gather..?). Trick in my case is getting the valve to re-open!
Lazydocker - have tried it open, shut, half way, solenoid on, solenoid off. Even tried a gentle tap with a hammer in each of those configurations...
That's me out of ideas then!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
You could try calling Tinley Tech and asking them if it can be reset... The guys there have been fantastic to me in the past and supremely helpful :y :y :y :y
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Second one (in case there isn't a solution for the first question) - how do you get rid of about 60 litres of gas in order to change the multivalve if the outlet is shut?
Easy wear gardening gloves and undo the valve and run ;D It wont take long to empty itself ;D
And plenty of ice formation....Deserted car park? Strange hissing noise? I make that "Pimms o'clock"!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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and the car will stink for approx a week afterwards!!!
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and the car will stink for approx a week afterwards!!!
I'd like to think he'll remove the tank first!!! :y :y :y :y
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and the car will stink for approx a week afterwards!!!
I'd like to think he'll remove the tank first!!! :y :y :y :y
Oh yes....and probably flog it on ebay still full...so don't buy it!
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i have had the supply line out of a tank (4 hole )there is no valve underneath the solenoid, just a big hole.bit of a shock tho as i did'nt realise it had gas inside ;D
My 4 hole also just had a passage into the tank under the solenoid. I don't know if it's required to have an excess flow valve if you have a solenoid valve directly on the tank because the ECU would disengage the solenoid in the event of damage to the pipe. Failing that the plunger on the soleoid looked more than just a washer on the end of a metal slug, so perhaps that does something clever when the flow rate is too high. :-/
Are you getting the full 12 volts at the solenoid when energised? Have you tried connecting it the other way round? (not sure if the polarity matters - maybe?). Has a problem downstream - at the vapouriser, for example, been eliminated?
Kevin
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Another thought - I wonder if you could force something (compressed air?) back into the tank with the valve open in the hope that it'd clear any blockage? Probably best to talk to an expert before trying anything though. :-X
Kevin
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i have had the supply line out of a tank (4 hole )there is no valve underneath the solenoid, just a big hole.bit of a shock tho as i did'nt realise it had gas inside ;D
My 4 hole also just had a passage into the tank under the solenoid. I don't know if it's required to have an excess flow valve if you have a solenoid valve directly on the tank because the ECU would disengage the solenoid in the event of damage to the pipe. Failing that the plunger on the soleoid looked more than just a washer on the end of a metal slug, so perhaps that does something clever when the flow rate is too high. :-/
Are you getting the full 12 volts at the solenoid when energised? Have you tried connecting it the other way round? (not sure if the polarity matters - maybe?). Has a problem downstream - at the vapouriser, for example, been eliminated?
Kevin
Good point.......thinking about it, i get two clickies on mine.....one click after about 20secs of starting from hot (takes longer from cold coz the water temp has to be 28C)......i think thats the tank soleniod value opening......then after about 5 secs....give it some revs (1500rpm) and you hear another click as another soleniod opens and as this happens it switches to lpg.......rev it too early after the first click and it stays on petrol. Maybe you arent getting the 2nd click? :-/ Or maybe totally different system to mine and this doesnt happen on yours? :-/
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Definately getting 12v at the solenoid for starters. No issue downstream - have tried cracking the unions (standard practice for bleeding) and still no gas - liquid or otherwise.
4 hole tanks still have the same bits, just one bit per hole (filler, gauge, overpressure vent, takeoff) instead of all in one. As I understand, you still need an excess flow valve WITH the solenoid - belts and braces.
I fancied trying the 6-bar-airline-up-the-takeoff-pipe method, but would prefer to hear it from someone who's done it!
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TD - on mine (mixer, not sequential) my system fires all solenoids at the same time (unlike my dads old Discovery which was the same as yours, but still a mixer system). This is as per the instructions for the controller unit...
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Good point.......thinking about it, i get two clickies on mine.....one click after about 20secs of starting from hot (takes longer from cold coz the water temp has to be 28C)......i think thats the tank soleniod value opening......then after about 5 secs....give it some revs (1500rpm) and you hear another click as another soleniod opens and as this happens it switches to lpg.......rev it too early after the first click and it stays on petrol. Maybe you arent getting the 2nd click? :-/ Or maybe totally different system to mine and this doesnt happen on yours? :-/
Interesting. On mine the valve on the tank and the valve on the vapouriser are wired in parallel. There is a click as it opens the valves (defaults to 3 seconds after engine start or at 30 degrees c reducer temperature) and it then switches one cylinder at a time to LPG.
Kevin
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I fancied trying the 6-bar-airline-up-the-takeoff-pipe method, but would prefer to hear it from someone who's done it!
I think you'd need more than 6 bar too. I noticed a pressure gauge on the pump when I was refuelling the other day. It sat at a constant 12 bar throughout.
Certainly not to be tried without some advice, I'd say, but there is normally a finger filter on the end of the pickup pipe in the tank and I'm wondering if the tank has got some muck in it which has been stirred up, and it has blocked the filter.
Really not sure what you do with a LPG tank that you can't empty - other than sell it on ebay. ;D
Kevin
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Good point.......thinking about it, i get two clickies on mine.....one click after about 20secs of starting from hot (takes longer from cold coz the water temp has to be 28C)......i think thats the tank soleniod value opening......then after about 5 secs....give it some revs (1500rpm) and you hear another click as another soleniod opens and as this happens it switches to lpg.......rev it too early after the first click and it stays on petrol. Maybe you arent getting the 2nd click? :-/ Or maybe totally different system to mine and this doesnt happen on yours? :-/
Interesting. On mine the valve on the tank and the valve on the vapouriser are wired in parallel. There is a click as it opens the valves (defaults to 3 seconds after engine start or at 30 degrees c reducer temperature) and it then switches one cylinder at a time to LPG.
Kevin
It switches all mine at the same time......this im pretty sure off.....coz if your idling, give it blip on the throttle so the 2nd soleniod switches....as the revs come down....it nearly stalls every time.....drops to 500rpm or less as its struggling to cope with switchover on all 4 cylinders at the same......i think the engine ecu comes the rescue everytime...and gives it revs to stop it stalling....until its back to 700rpm.
Mine is set to switch after 25secs if water temp is 28C.......it was set to 30secs until i borrowed Martins cable.....25 secs was the lowest value the ecu would except.
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I fancied trying the 6-bar-airline-up-the-takeoff-pipe method, but would prefer to hear it from someone who's done it!
I think you'd need more than 6 bar too. I noticed a pressure gauge on the pump when I was refuelling the other day. It sat at a constant 12 bar throughout.
Certainly not to be tried without some advice, I'd say, but there is normally a finger filter on the end of the pickup pipe in the tank and I'm wondering if the tank has got some muck in it which has been stirred up, and it has blocked the filter.
Really not sure what you do with a LPG tank that you can't empty - other than sell it on ebay. ;D
Kevin
Pretty sure that 12 bar is the delivery pressure to overcome the OTHER one way valve on the filler line, but LPG is stored at (normally) 6 bar-ish. My compressor has a 7 bar cut-off, so that's all I have to play with!
I wonder if a "Don't buy this ebay link" is allowed on here???
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Funnily enough - just been offered a vertical donut tank (i.e. Range Rover Classic style)...need to get the tape measure out ;D ;D
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I fancied trying the 6-bar-airline-up-the-takeoff-pipe method, but would prefer to hear it from someone who's done it!
I think you'd need more than 6 bar too. I noticed a pressure gauge on the pump when I was refuelling the other day. It sat at a constant 12 bar throughout.
Certainly not to be tried without some advice, I'd say, but there is normally a finger filter on the end of the pickup pipe in the tank and I'm wondering if the tank has got some muck in it which has been stirred up, and it has blocked the filter.
Really not sure what you do with a LPG tank that you can't empty - other than sell it on ebay. ;D
Kevin
Not too sure what the 'airline pipe up the take off pipe' method is.....but i would expect 6 bar just to take longer than 12 bar pressure....ive seen pressure guages on pumps too......but carnt remember what they were pumping at :-[
Tho having said that........if i fill up at calor place.......it takes fooking ages to fill up......so i guess they pump in at less pressure....Shell garage i go to......absolutely pisses it in.....faster than putting petrol/diesel in.....so i guess their pumps are set a lot higher pressure...
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Airline up the pipe - a vain attempt (in theory ONLY!!!) to reset the excess flow valve....purely an idea at the moment!
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Here you go:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-vapor-pressure-d_1020.html
Seems about 7.6 BAR at 21 deg. c but heavily temperature dependant, as expected.
Kevin