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Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: STEMO on 12 May 2017, 18:11:16

Title: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: STEMO on 12 May 2017, 18:11:16
Just breaking on the news.  :o

As we have no money, they'll have to say "What d'yer want...blood?"
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: 2boxerdogs on 12 May 2017, 18:41:04
These days everything is on computer, bring back pen & paper ..😁😁😁
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Varche on 12 May 2017, 18:43:18
Not just the NHS but loads of other countries too. :o

Here in Spain " Employees at Telefónica ( like BT in the UK) HQ in Madrid instructed to turn off computers and disconnect cellphones from Wi-Fi. Intelligence agency confirms “ransomware” attack has also affected other companies"
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: TheBoy on 13 May 2017, 08:50:16
A new variant of (ransomware) Lucky started popping up a few days ago.

Turns out NHS staff are really stupid, which is why it hit them hard.
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Mister Rog on 13 May 2017, 09:26:44
A new variant of (ransomware) Lucky started popping up a few days ago.

Turns out NHS staff are really stupid, which is why it hit them hard.

Believe me, some of them really are.
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: zirk on 13 May 2017, 11:53:36
Probably still running unsupported Software, XP etc, what do they expect.  ::)
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Mister Rog on 13 May 2017, 12:03:00
Probably still running unsupported Software, XP etc, what do they expect.  ::)

Late last year I bought something in PC World Currys. You know, the supposedly high tech, gizmo, uber-up-to-date shop. The guy sat at a computer terminal to look something up. Windows XP ! . . . . and soooooo slow I almost have up.

Anyway, more reports from various car manufacturers in UK and France. I bet NHS bosses are feeling happier being able to say "it's not just us than"  ::)

Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Steve B on 13 May 2017, 17:54:29
Probably still running unsupported Software, XP etc, what do they expect.  ::)
Yes i see they are...
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 13 May 2017, 18:59:18
Probably still running unsupported Software, XP etc, what do they expect.  ::)
Yes i see they are...
Not uncommon as an industrial operating system. Probably best not connected to tinterweb though ::)
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: STEMO on 13 May 2017, 19:07:10
Perhaps someone could explain this to me, vey s l o w l y, using words of one syllable  ;D

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-05-13/accidental-hero-triggers-kill-switch-to-halt-spread-of-cyber-attack/
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 13 May 2017, 19:16:21
Pikeys scammers 'borrowed' an unbiased registered domain name as the foundation of their process.

By chance this domain name was spotted in the programming. A quick check, presumably to attempt to identify the culprits, revealed that the domain was un registered and available for purchase.

He then purchased the domain. This had the effect of cutting the link to the scammers software, killing it dead.

An analogy might be to receive nuisance calls from a directory number only to find that the number is an empty shop, then buying the shop and changing the number.

Of course I could be talking out of my arse and Maj will be along shortly to put my evil ways straight :D
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: BazaJT on 13 May 2017, 21:09:56
Apparently the "ransom"was demanded in bitcoin.I've heard this described as a virtual currency,so how does that work?How do you spend it?How do you get hold of it to turn it into actual currency?
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: ronnyd on 13 May 2017, 22:25:51
Don,t you have to "mine" bitcoins? ??? What ever that entails :-[
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Rods2 on 13 May 2017, 23:11:23
A lot of older shop networked tills and industrial systems still run bespoke versions of Windows XP. ::) ::) ::)

If you are a criminal then an armed robbery of a bank will get you 5 years plus, selling drugs will easily get you 20 years+ and hacking computers to stealing identities, credit card details, using ransomware etc, etc to make lots of money will give you a 99.5% chance of never being caught and if you are one of the 0.5% your solicitor claims that little 'Johnny Hacker' has mental / personality issues and can't help it so if you are very unlucky you will get a 6-18 month's suspended sentence but more likely a conditional discharge. >:( >:( >:( Some of these cases have cost companies and victims millions of £££. Unsurprisingly, this along with counterfeit goods are these days, organised criminal gangs and individual criminals careers of choice and they are now some of the fastest-growing global industries. >:( >:( >:(

Until politicians start taking criminals that like to call themselves hackers seriously, then the current average 200 million attacks per year, and growing, the average website receives will continue. You only have to go and look at your server logs to realise automated hacker tools are constantly bombarding you 24 hours a day looking for vulnerabilities. :( :( :(

Personally, I would like to see any attack on any IT system unless you are a licenced security hacker and have the website owners permission made a serious criminal offence. Would we put up with criminals attacking and testing our local bank's physical security 24/7, no and nor should society have to put up with this happening with impunity on our electronic systems. There is also much that the government can do to make the tracing of any attacks by the police much easier. A low-level cheap punishment would be to ban the criminal from using a computer, tablet, smartphone and having or using any Internet connection for x months as a first sentence and then escalate as required with subsequent offences. :y :y :y

The stealing of identities, card details, compromising photographs, infidelity website account details etc, etc is not a victimless crime and in the worst cases, it has resulted in people dying, as some might with these postponed NHS operations. :( :( :(

Will our politicians use these latest attacks as one of many recent global tsunamis of attacks over the last 12 months as a wake-up call, I won't be holding my breath? :( :( :(
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 14 May 2017, 01:43:38
A low-level cheap punishment would be to ban the criminal from using a computer, tablet, smartphone and having or using any Internet connection for x months as a first sentence and then escalate as required with subsequent offences. :y :y :y

It's not a bad idea Rods, but how do you enforce it?  ???

Ban Jonnie Scumbag from using the internet is all very well, but he'll just carry on using his mates IP address. No?  :-\
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: STEMO on 14 May 2017, 07:48:54
A low-level cheap punishment would be to ban the criminal from using a computer, tablet, smartphone and having or using any Internet connection for x months as a first sentence and then escalate as required with subsequent offences. :y :y :y

It's not a bad idea Rods, but how do you enforce it?  ???

Ban Jonnie Scumbag from using the internet is all very well, but he'll just carry on using his mates IP address. No?  :-\
Not if you chop his fingers off  :y
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 14 May 2017, 10:19:38
So it seems this is yet another example of the USA security services trying to take advantage of a "weapon" that they can use but ends up being turned against us all.  If the NSA had not intervened then Microsoft would have been able to take far more effective action to stop this attack, and probably those to come:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-39905509

 ::) ::) ::)

I say bring in the young army of IT experts; those aged between 5 and 25, who will fight these attacks very quickly! :D :D ;)

Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: biggriffin on 14 May 2017, 12:30:16
When they arrest little Johnny no mates computer hacker, why not give him the option to work for aunty Teresa at gchq or go to prison, were uncle Winston will look after him.
Or is that to easy :P
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Entwood on 14 May 2017, 15:27:18
So it seems this is yet another example of the USA security services trying to take advantage of a "weapon" that they can use but ends up being turned against us all.  If the NSA had not intervened then Microsoft would have been able to take far more effective action to stop this attack, and probably those to come:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-39905509

 ::) ::) ::)

I say bring in the young army of IT experts; those aged between 5 and 25, who will fight these attacks very quickly! :D :D ;)

Microsoft issued a patch that prevented this attack working over 2 months ago. All the machines affected have simply not been updated regularly. Microsoft told the world years back they were no longer supporting Win XP .. yet numerous, nay, thousands, of computers still run it ... so whose fault is it really ?? 

If you don't update it is your fault, not the company providing the updates. Anyone with half an interest in IT will tell you that the hackers are one step ahead of the latest systems ... and about 200 miles ahead of outdated software like XP .....

So, if the NHS network managers had done their job PROPERLY .......   :)

EDIT ...  Interesting reading .  :)

https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/msrc/2017/05/12/customer-guidance-for-wannacrypt-attacks/?utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Varche on 14 May 2017, 15:40:44
It would be helpful if a cost was supplied to the public of these cyber attacks.  Most of which will be borne by us the tax payer. Instead it is all talked sbout as though it is a minor inconvenience.

I agree with you to a point on XP not being supported. However the reverse of the coin is why should companies have to keep updating hardware and operating software versions. Most only use them asa database. XP was quite adequate. To draw a car analogy. How would Omega owners feel if they had to have the latest engine installed in their car very couple of years. Also thatafter five years or less parts wouldnt be available for your car. Have to buy a new car sir.

Perhaps the world has it wrong and Microsofft should be supporting their products for longer....

Good luck with that!
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: aaronjb on 15 May 2017, 09:04:38
Perhaps the world has it wrong and Microsofft should be supporting their products for longer....

Microsoft will support just about anything for as long as you want given sufficient financial incentive - just ask people like the MOD & US Military about their support contracts for "unsupported" operating systems.

They'd support it for you, too, and the rest of us, but nobody would stomach the cost.

You know the adage: Good, cheap or fast; pick two.

Everyone picked cheap and fast.
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 15 May 2017, 09:19:57
The world is full of equipment running XP on embedded systems and will be for a long time to come, are we expecting every heart monitor, CT scanner, MRi and control system to be updated?
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Kevin Wood on 15 May 2017, 09:43:31
I develop software for some kit that still runs Windows 2000.  :o

The fact is that some things (normally very expensive things) have a longer life cycle than the operating system they use to interact with the user. Successive Windows versions seem designed to deliberately break things that worked in previous versions, so upgrading is not usually an option.

None of this is a problem, except that there is a fascination with connecting everything to the internet these days.

If you have something that needs to run an unsupported cheap, nasty consumer OS, for god's sake, take a tube of epoxy to the ethernet and USB ports. ::)
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Entwood on 15 May 2017, 10:35:16
I develop software for some kit that still runs Windows 2000.  :o

The fact is that some things (normally very expensive things) have a longer life cycle than the operating system they use to interact with the user. Successive Windows versions seem designed to deliberately break things that worked in previous versions, so upgrading is not usually an option.

None of this is a problem, except that there is a fascination with connecting everything to the internet these days.

If you have something that needs to run an unsupported cheap, nasty consumer OS, for god's sake, take a tube of epoxy to the ethernet and USB ports. ::)

And thats the big clue .. I "look after" a small network ( 8 ) of win XP machines that run some very specialised custom written (not by me!) software that would cost a fortune to rewrite. There is no internet connectivity, the floppy/optical drives have all been removed, the USB ports are not connected. In the company safe are two hard drives. The "master", which is never installed, and a single "spare". On the very rare occasions when things go wrong, swap the hard drive and away we go. I then make another image from the master on a new "spare" and life continues. Not cutting edge .. but simple, secure and effective.

Lastly, written into employment contracts and emphasised repeatedly, any employee found even trying to connect any external software or hardware to the system is summarily dismissed.

:)
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: TheBoy on 15 May 2017, 10:36:31
MS are actually one of the good guys when it comes to security support, both in cost and in lifecycle length.

All software has faults, but there is loads we as users can do to negate this, particularly around limiting our rights on a PC - but everyone's ego does not match their actual ability, so they run everything as an administrator, and tone down UAC. Then complain when their retarded actions cause their machine to be compromised.


As to XP, its fine. Just don't allow it onto open networks, and definitely not near the internet
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Rods2 on 15 May 2017, 10:40:14
I develop software for some kit that still runs Windows 2000.  :o

The fact is that some things (normally very expensive things) have a longer life cycle than the operating system they use to interact with the user. Successive Windows versions seem designed to deliberately break things that worked in previous versions, so upgrading is not usually an option.

None of this is a problem, except that there is a fascination with connecting everything to the internet these days.

If you have something that needs to run an unsupported cheap, nasty consumer OS, for god's sake, take a tube of epoxy to the ethernet and USB ports. ::)

The problem is that much of the medical equipment needs to be connected to a network to be of any practical use as the data it is collecting needs to be shared, saved in patients notes etc.
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Entwood on 15 May 2017, 10:48:48
I develop software for some kit that still runs Windows 2000.  :o

The fact is that some things (normally very expensive things) have a longer life cycle than the operating system they use to interact with the user. Successive Windows versions seem designed to deliberately break things that worked in previous versions, so upgrading is not usually an option.

None of this is a problem, except that there is a fascination with connecting everything to the internet these days.

If you have something that needs to run an unsupported cheap, nasty consumer OS, for god's sake, take a tube of epoxy to the ethernet and USB ports. ::)

The problem is that much of the medical equipment needs to be connected to a network to be of any practical use as the data it is collecting needs to be shared, saved in patients notes etc.

But that network does NOT need internet access, it just needs access to its own network ... do the employees REALLY need to use google, BBC, personal email servers etc etc etc whilst "supposed" to be working ??
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Rods2 on 15 May 2017, 10:55:06
So it seems this is yet another example of the USA security services trying to take advantage of a "weapon" that they can use but ends up being turned against us all.  If the NSA had not intervened then Microsoft would have been able to take far more effective action to stop this attack, and probably those to come:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-39905509

 ::) ::) ::)

I say bring in the young army of IT experts; those aged between 5 and 25, who will fight these attacks very quickly! :D :D ;)

Microsoft issued a patch that prevented this attack working over 2 months ago. All the machines affected have simply not been updated regularly. Microsoft told the world years back they were no longer supporting Win XP .. yet numerous, nay, thousands, of computers still run it ... so whose fault is it really ?? 

If you don't update it is your fault, not the company providing the updates. Anyone with half an interest in IT will tell you that the hackers are one step ahead of the latest systems ... and about 200 miles ahead of outdated software like XP .....

So, if the NHS network managers had done their job PROPERLY .......   :)

EDIT ...  Interesting reading .  :)

https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/msrc/2017/05/12/customer-guidance-for-wannacrypt-attacks/?utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral

As one of the globe's richest companies with over $100bn in the bank, they could afford to maintain these older embedded systems but to keep the money profit-making engine turned up to 11 and shareholders happy, they must continue to create new income streams by making new incompatible systems and make old systems obsolete to force you to update, so the cash keeps rolling in.

The good news is that Microsoft is steadily losing ground to Linux with the smartphone/tablet market already lost and the majority of web servers using Linux. The desktop/laptop market is shrinking and I suspect that this trend will continue.
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Rods2 on 15 May 2017, 11:08:20
I develop software for some kit that still runs Windows 2000.  :o

The fact is that some things (normally very expensive things) have a longer life cycle than the operating system they use to interact with the user. Successive Windows versions seem designed to deliberately break things that worked in previous versions, so upgrading is not usually an option.

None of this is a problem, except that there is a fascination with connecting everything to the internet these days.

If you have something that needs to run an unsupported cheap, nasty consumer OS, for god's sake, take a tube of epoxy to the ethernet and USB ports. ::)

The problem is that much of the medical equipment needs to be connected to a network to be of any practical use as the data it is collecting needs to be shared, saved in patients notes etc.

But that network does NOT need internet access, it just needs access to its own network ... do the employees REALLY need to use google, BBC, personal email servers etc etc etc whilst "supposed" to be working ??

Yes, as information needs to be shared over multiple networks. During treatments where I have a rare eye condition the doctors have resorted, twice in my presence to an Internet expert database to find out more and also for emailing a London hospital for a second opinion. Where I had some US research papers on the condition the neurologist I was seeing over an MRI scan, the detailed images which were online, looked up the papers I had found and bookmarked them for his own background reading. This is the real world where the Internet is a vast database of expert knowledge (as well as much populist trash) and a wide area communication system.
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Kevin Wood on 15 May 2017, 11:14:54
But that network does NOT need internet access, it just needs access to its own network ... do the employees REALLY need to use google, BBC, personal email servers etc etc etc whilst "supposed" to be working ??

Exactly.  :y

As soon as you put Windows on something, users will assume it's for social networking, watching YouTube videos, etc. not, in this case, making ill people better. The answer is that windows was not an appropriate choice for a device with a long life cycle, but it was the cheap one at the time and plenty fell into that hole.

The choices are there, really. Use something with a smaller attack surface than windows, lock down what users can do to the bare minimum needed to get their jobs done and ignore their moaning, or invest in porting everything to the latest, fully supported Windows. Even then, though you're in trouble if your users are stupid.
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Entwood on 15 May 2017, 11:33:22
I develop software for some kit that still runs Windows 2000.  :o

The fact is that some things (normally very expensive things) have a longer life cycle than the operating system they use to interact with the user. Successive Windows versions seem designed to deliberately break things that worked in previous versions, so upgrading is not usually an option.

None of this is a problem, except that there is a fascination with connecting everything to the internet these days.

If you have something that needs to run an unsupported cheap, nasty consumer OS, for god's sake, take a tube of epoxy to the ethernet and USB ports. ::)

The problem is that much of the medical equipment needs to be connected to a network to be of any practical use as the data it is collecting needs to be shared, saved in patients notes etc.

But that network does NOT need internet access, it just needs access to its own network ... do the employees REALLY need to use google, BBC, personal email servers etc etc etc whilst "supposed" to be working ??

Yes, as information needs to be shared over multiple networks. During treatments where I have a rare eye condition the doctors have resorted, twice in my presence to an Internet expert database to find out more and also for emailing a London hospital for a second opinion. Where I had some US research papers on the condition the neurologist I was seeing over an MRI scan, the detailed images which were online, looked up the papers I had found and bookmarked them for his own background reading. This is the real world where the Internet is a vast database of expert knowledge (as well as much populist trash) and a wide area communication system.

Not disputing any of that .. but the MRI scanner does NOT need to be linked to the internet, so can run win XP quite safely in a secure environment. The consultant who DOES need access to the internet uses a separate system with win 10 updated as he is NOT using any specialist software, just a browser and email. All to do with access control, risk management and attention to detail .. just what an IT manager is actually paid to do ???
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 15 May 2017, 11:44:53
Just heard a report  on LBC which said this was supposed to be prevented by an expensive upgrade in 2009, but Gormless refused to spens the money, so it was cancelled. Sounds about right.  ::)
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Rods2 on 15 May 2017, 11:50:19
So it seems this is yet another example of the USA security services trying to take advantage of a "weapon" that they can use but ends up being turned against us all.  If the NSA had not intervened then Microsoft would have been able to take far more effective action to stop this attack, and probably those to come:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-39905509

 ::) ::) ::)

I say bring in the young army of IT experts; those aged between 5 and 25, who will fight these attacks very quickly! :D :D ;)

So NSA / GCHQ should as these sort of exploits are what keep us safe, where since traitor Snowden terrorists extensively use encryption. The use of such vulnerabilities allows them access, with court orders, to their IT systems to subvert their activities. Perfect systems + encryptions means they can plan and execute their evil deeds with our intelligence and security services blinded. :(
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Rods2 on 15 May 2017, 11:52:31
I develop software for some kit that still runs Windows 2000.  :o

The fact is that some things (normally very expensive things) have a longer life cycle than the operating system they use to interact with the user. Successive Windows versions seem designed to deliberately break things that worked in previous versions, so upgrading is not usually an option.

None of this is a problem, except that there is a fascination with connecting everything to the internet these days.

If you have something that needs to run an unsupported cheap, nasty consumer OS, for god's sake, take a tube of epoxy to the ethernet and USB ports. ::)

The problem is that much of the medical equipment needs to be connected to a network to be of any practical use as the data it is collecting needs to be shared, saved in patients notes etc.

But that network does NOT need internet access, it just needs access to its own network ... do the employees REALLY need to use google, BBC, personal email servers etc etc etc whilst "supposed" to be working ??

Yes, as information needs to be shared over multiple networks. During treatments where I have a rare eye condition the doctors have resorted, twice in my presence to an Internet expert database to find out more and also for emailing a London hospital for a second opinion. Where I had some US research papers on the condition the neurologist I was seeing over an MRI scan, the detailed images which were online, looked up the papers I had found and bookmarked them for his own background reading. This is the real world where the Internet is a vast database of expert knowledge (as well as much populist trash) and a wide area communication system.

Not disputing any of that .. but the MRI scanner does NOT need to be linked to the internet, so can run win XP quite safely in a secure environment. The consultant who DOES need access to the internet uses a separate system with win 10 updated as he is NOT using any specialist software, just a browser and email. All to do with access control, risk management and attention to detail .. just what an IT manager is actually paid to do ???

Like everything else in the real world, where does the cost-benefit analysis draw the line?
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 15 May 2017, 12:02:08
So it seems this is yet another example of the USA security services trying to take advantage of a "weapon" that they can use but ends up being turned against us all.  If the NSA had not intervened then Microsoft would have been able to take far more effective action to stop this attack, and probably those to come:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-39905509

 ::) ::) ::)

I say bring in the young army of IT experts; those aged between 5 and 25, who will fight these attacks very quickly! :D :D ;)

Microsoft issued a patch that prevented this attack working over 2 months ago. All the machines affected have simply not been updated regularly. Microsoft told the world years back they were no longer supporting Win XP .. yet numerous, nay, thousands, of computers still run it ... so whose fault is it really ?? 

If you don't update it is your fault, not the company providing the updates. Anyone with half an interest in IT will tell you that the hackers are one step ahead of the latest systems ... and about 200 miles ahead of outdated software like XP .....

So, if the NHS network managers had done their job PROPERLY .......   :)

EDIT ...  Interesting reading .  :)

https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/msrc/2017/05/12/customer-guidance-for-wannacrypt-attacks/?utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral

As one of the globe's richest companies with over $100bn in the bank, they could afford to maintain these older embedded systems but to keep the money profit-making engine turned up to 11 and shareholders happy, they must continue to create new income streams by making new incompatible systems and make old systems obsolete to force you to update, so the cash keeps rolling in.

The good news is that Microsoft is steadily losing ground to Linux with the smartphone/tablet market already lost and the majority of web servers using Linux. The desktop/laptop market is shrinking and I suspect that this trend will continue.

I found this out just last week when I went to Vodafone to renew my contract. No Nokia/Window phones are now offered by Vodafone. I have had Nokia, then Windows for ever, but the manager explained Windows and Apple are in decline and it is all down to the other main players like Samsung. Since Gates and Job left the scene those companies have lost their direction.

How things in IT change so quickly! ::) ::) :o
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 15 May 2017, 12:27:26
NHS has confirmed it was offered details of a patch last month which could have prevented the attack, but they failed to act on it.
Will heads roll ? Will they f....
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: TD on 15 May 2017, 13:59:51
But that network does NOT need internet access, it just needs access to its own network ... do the employees REALLY need to use google, BBC, personal email servers etc etc etc whilst "supposed" to be working ??

Exactly.  :y

As soon as you put Windows on something, users will assume it's for social networking, watching YouTube videos, etc. not, in this case, making ill people better. The answer is that windows was not an appropriate choice for a device with a long life cycle, but it was the cheap one at the time and plenty fell into that hole.

The choices are there, really. Use something with a smaller attack surface than windows, lock down what users can do to the bare minimum needed to get their jobs done and ignore their moaning, or invest in porting everything to the latest, fully supported Windows. Even then, though you're in trouble if your users are stupid.

When I goto my surgery for a check up with the diabetic nurse, Ive seen her google certain tablets to find out side effects/if they can be prescribed with other tablets/etc....and this is on the same pc that's running the surgery software.....not sure of the OS tho....but I bet it isn't the latest with the latest patches installed . I guess this is what happens when you have nurses qualified to write prescriptions but
not the experience of a doctor and a doctors surgery that has a couple of doctors and about 8 nurses....everything where possible gets
left to the nurses.
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Kevin Wood on 15 May 2017, 14:23:53
When I goto my surgery for a check up with the diabetic nurse, Ive seen her google certain tablets to find out side effects/if they can be prescribed with other tablets/etc....and this is on the same pc that's running the surgery software.....not sure of the OS tho....but I bet it isn't the latest with the latest patches installed . I guess this is what happens when you have nurses qualified to write prescriptions but
not the experience of a doctor and a doctors surgery that has a couple of doctors and about 8 nurses....everything where possible gets
left to the nurses.

Yes, and it's not an unreasonable thing for them to do, so, if any software they are using is holding the system back from being updated then the whole system is unfit for purpose. It's no use waving hands in the air and blaming hackers. Unpatched systems with internet access get hacked, just as unlocked bikes parked at the station get nicked. That's the way the world works, except that, outside IT, we seem to be able to adapt to how the world works. ;)
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: zirk on 15 May 2017, 14:52:08
I found this out just last week when I went to Vodafone to renew my contract. No Nokia/Window phones are now offered by Vodafone. I have had Nokia, then Windows for ever, but the manager explained Windows and Apple are in decline and it is all down to the other main players like Samsung. Since Gates and Job left the scene those companies have lost their direction.

How things in IT change so quickly! ::) ::) :o
Windows phones are a dead duck now Lizzie, Microsoft kept threating about a possible new Surface Phone, but it probably wont happen or be any good for non Business use.

In a nut shell, Nokia are now free from MS, so all there new phones will be Android based, there current Nokia 6 in 64gb form is actually a nice spec'ed phone for the price, just under 250 quid with the Nokia 3 and 5 being budget versions. Any time now Nokia are launching the Nokia 8/9 which will be there revival Flagship models to compete with the likes of iPhone and Samsung models, surprised, or maybe not, that Vodafone never told you this.

Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Auto Addict on 15 May 2017, 17:04:27
I've just upgraded to DOS 6.1 ;)
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Rods2 on 15 May 2017, 19:59:14
I've just upgraded to DOS 6.1 ;)

You won't get me moving to such new-fangled Operating Systems, I will stick with CP/M. :P :P :P
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 15 May 2017, 20:23:16
I found this out just last week when I went to Vodafone to renew my contract. No Nokia/Window phones are now offered by Vodafone. I have had Nokia, then Windows for ever, but the manager explained Windows and Apple are in decline and it is all down to the other main players like Samsung. Since Gates and Job left the scene those companies have lost their direction.

How things in IT change so quickly! ::) ::) :o
Windows phones are a dead duck now Lizzie, Microsoft kept threating about a possible new Surface Phone, but it probably wont happen or be any good for non Business use.

In a nut shell, Nokia are now free from MS, so all there new phones will be Android based, there current Nokia 6 in 64gb form is actually a nice spec'ed phone for the price, just under 250 quid with the Nokia 3 and 5 being budget versions. Any time now Nokia are launching the Nokia 8/9 which will be there revival Flagship models to compete with the likes of iPhone and Samsung models, surprised, or maybe not, that Vodafone never told you this.

Thanks zirk :y

No, all Vodafone said was something about an old phone of theirs being relaunched, but with a new operating system; the number, 6310 or was it 3110 (??) seemed very familiar, as a phone I once had years back. I love Nokia, and currently have a Nokia (Windows) Lumia 930, which is almost brand new after I made a warranty claim for the same phone. I will be hoping the new ones are available when I need it ;)
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: zirk on 15 May 2017, 22:46:11
I found this out just last week when I went to Vodafone to renew my contract. No Nokia/Window phones are now offered by Vodafone. I have had Nokia, then Windows for ever, but the manager explained Windows and Apple are in decline and it is all down to the other main players like Samsung. Since Gates and Job left the scene those companies have lost their direction.

How things in IT change so quickly! ::) ::) :o
Windows phones are a dead duck now Lizzie, Microsoft kept threating about a possible new Surface Phone, but it probably wont happen or be any good for non Business use.

In a nut shell, Nokia are now free from MS, so all there new phones will be Android based, there current Nokia 6 in 64gb form is actually a nice spec'ed phone for the price, just under 250 quid with the Nokia 3 and 5 being budget versions. Any time now Nokia are launching the Nokia 8/9 which will be there revival Flagship models to compete with the likes of iPhone and Samsung models, surprised, or maybe not, that Vodafone never told you this.

Thanks zirk :y

No, all Vodafone said was something about an old phone of theirs being relaunched, but with a new operating system; the number, 6310 or was it 3110 (??) seemed very familiar, as a phone I once had years back. I love Nokia, and currently have a Nokia (Windows) Lumia 930, which is almost brand new after I made a warranty claim for the same phone. I will be hoping the new ones are available when I need it ;)

Yes they're also re launching the 3310, but this time with a Colour Screen, about 50 quid Sim Free. No 3 or 4G Connectivity, but it doses make phone calls. Also has a low res 2mp Camera for taking those early 2001 style pictures, and if your Music or Film lover it has, wait for it, ......   a 16Mb internal memory, yes Mb.




(http://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/RBDRAe6JPpRUFqyWACGW5Q-1200-80.jpg)
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: TheBoy on 16 May 2017, 09:32:49
I develop software for some kit that still runs Windows 2000.  :o

The fact is that some things (normally very expensive things) have a longer life cycle than the operating system they use to interact with the user. Successive Windows versions seem designed to deliberately break things that worked in previous versions, so upgrading is not usually an option.

None of this is a problem, except that there is a fascination with connecting everything to the internet these days.

If you have something that needs to run an unsupported cheap, nasty consumer OS, for god's sake, take a tube of epoxy to the ethernet and USB ports. ::)

The problem is that much of the medical equipment needs to be connected to a network to be of any practical use as the data it is collecting needs to be shared, saved in patients notes etc.

But that network does NOT need internet access, it just needs access to its own network ... do the employees REALLY need to use google, BBC, personal email servers etc etc etc whilst "supposed" to be working ??
The specialist stuff isn't internet accessible, but is networked for things like electronically storing X-rays etc.

GPs and general purpose PCs do need internet. However, despite media 'dangle berries', these "normal" machines are generally W7, thus supported.

This particular malware needed a human idiot to infect. And the NHS has no shortage. It wasn't the technology that was really the issue in this case.  But that doesn't make a good story.


This attack was actually aimed at telcos, with NHS being collateral damage. Telefonica and O2 took a bit of a hit, bit in an election build up, only NHS will get reported by U.K. Media
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: aaronjb on 16 May 2017, 09:43:23
This particular malware needed a human idiot to infect.

Only for the first infection within a properly firewalled enterprise, though.. after that, if unpatched, it could spread all by itself via the hole described by MS017-010. And I am willing to bet the NHS has a lot of unpatched machines, even if their patch programme is up to date..

Heck, in a well controlled environment (ours) a survey of 4000 "machines" (includes VMs) found ~600 unpatched; my own VM was one of them, because it gets fired up so rarely..

And a quick look on something like shodan.io (https://www.shodan.io/search?query=port%3A445+-hash%3A0&language=en#) will find 1.5 million servers with port 445 exposed to the internet (for the uninitiated, that's the port required for infection if you are unpatched). A port that, as you know, has precisely no purpose being exposed to the internet.

.. tl;dr: It's not just the users that are idiots ;D
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: TheBoy on 16 May 2017, 09:45:34


The good news is that Microsoft is steadily losing ground to Linux with the smartphone/tablet market already lost and the majority of web servers using Linux. The desktop/laptop market is shrinking and I suspect that this trend will continue.
MS still rules the desktop, and Windows Server was only ever used where Windows offers something unique, and that still remains the case today.

Linux has ruled the world when it comes to medium performance LAMP style options. High performance unix style servers remain the domain of proper unix systems, as always.

Tablet sales have dropped off a cliff, and laptop sales increased, and the vast majority of these will be Windows.
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: TheBoy on 16 May 2017, 09:52:07
This particular malware needed a human idiot to infect.

Only for the first infection within a properly firewalled enterprise, though.. after that, if unpatched, it could spread all by itself via the hole described by MS017-010. And I am willing to bet the NHS has a lot of unpatched machines, even if their patch programme is up to date..
Indeed, as with any targeted worm, once inside a network segment, then often you're screwed, as so many options to spread, either on OS flaws, application flaws, collaboration tools, file sharing, plus more idiots via email.


The NHS network is heavily segregated (and very piecemeal), so needed a lot of idiots.
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: TheBoy on 16 May 2017, 09:57:19
I'd add, for all the anti MS brigade, MS provides the tools to ensure all MS products are automatically updated. System Center for big Enterprises, WSUS for SMEs, Windows Update for home users.

So no excuse not to be patched.


Linux is likewise, such as Spacewalk for bigger firms, and the bitty, inconsistent district unique tools for each district, the latter frequently being a manual chore.
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: aaronjb on 16 May 2017, 10:03:39
The NHS network is heavily segregated (and very piecemeal), so needed a lot of idiots.

Unfortunately those are not in short supply! ;D

(He says, still waiting for all the missed patches to install in his VM..)
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: TheBoy on 16 May 2017, 10:07:51
VMs on desktop machines are a huge issue, no matter what OS for this very reason. Same with W7's XP Mode (which is just a VM under the hood)
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: aaronjb on 16 May 2017, 10:14:39
Yeah - ours now get an auto-ban from the network if they're not powered on and connected to the domain every 30 days.. at least for the domain controlled VMs. Harder to control non-joined VMs and (given we are an engineer-heavy company) we have relatively few controls in place on what people can do on their local workstations (thankfully, from my perspective, though I know it is a permanent nightmare for the IT dept!)
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: TD on 16 May 2017, 14:07:48
I'd add, for all the anti MS brigade, MS provides the tools to ensure all MS products are automatically updated. System Center for big Enterprises, WSUS for SMEs, Windows Update for home users.

So no excuse not to be patched.


Linux is likewise, such as Spacewalk for bigger firms, and the bitty, inconsistent district unique tools for each district, the latter frequently being a manual chore.

I agree with that for home users, but many moons ago when I worked in IT, I don't remember any company I worked for allowing automatic updates. IME the IT dept downloaded the patch and patched just the IT department and left it like that for about a month (to ensure the patch didn't break any programs) then pushed it out across the rest of the company. Even then after the patch was pushed out, it usually broke a few pc's (admittedly it was more than likely the pc was a couple of years old with probably non standard programs installed)
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: TheBoy on 16 May 2017, 17:35:02
I'd add, for all the anti MS brigade, MS provides the tools to ensure all MS products are automatically updated. System Center for big Enterprises, WSUS for SMEs, Windows Update for home users.

So no excuse not to be patched.


Linux is likewise, such as Spacewalk for bigger firms, and the bitty, inconsistent district unique tools for each district, the latter frequently being a manual chore.

I agree with that for home users, but many moons ago when I worked in IT, I don't remember any company I worked for allowing automatic updates. IME the IT dept downloaded the patch and patched just the IT department and left it like that for about a month (to ensure the patch didn't break any programs) then pushed it out across the rest of the company. Even then after the patch was pushed out, it usually broke a few pc's (admittedly it was more than likely the pc was a couple of years old with probably non standard programs installed)
The network oriented tools allow for testing before approving for global deployment. SUS, WSUS and System Center have always had that capability. And IT departments get access to patching rollout reports etc.

There really is little excuse in this day and age, or really since MS started to be Internet aware back in the W2K days...
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: TD on 16 May 2017, 18:03:49
I'd add, for all the anti MS brigade, MS provides the tools to ensure all MS products are automatically updated. System Center for big Enterprises, WSUS for SMEs, Windows Update for home users.

So no excuse not to be patched.


Linux is likewise, such as Spacewalk for bigger firms, and the bitty, inconsistent district unique tools for each district, the latter frequently being a manual chore.

I agree with that for home users, but many moons ago when I worked in IT, I don't remember any company I worked for allowing automatic updates. IME the IT dept downloaded the patch and patched just the IT department and left it like that for about a month (to ensure the patch didn't break any programs) then pushed it out across the rest of the company. Even then after the patch was pushed out, it usually broke a few pc's (admittedly it was more than likely the pc was a couple of years old with probably non standard programs installed)
The network oriented tools allow for testing before approving for global deployment. SUS, WSUS and System Center have always had that capability. And IT departments get access to patching rollout reports etc.

There really is little excuse in this day and age, or really since MS started to be Internet aware back in the W2K days...

Ok, as I suspected, things have changed since I was in IT, around the late 90's early 2000's.
I still remember getting paid £1k for 6 hours playing pc games work on Jan 1st 2000  :) ;D
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: STEMO on 16 May 2017, 19:25:33
I'd add, for all the anti MS brigade, MS provides the tools to ensure all MS products are automatically updated. System Center for big Enterprises, WSUS for SMEs, Windows Update for home users.

So no excuse not to be patched.


Linux is likewise, such as Spacewalk for bigger firms, and the bitty, inconsistent district unique tools for each district, the latter frequently being a manual chore.

I agree with that for home users, but many moons ago when I worked in IT, I don't remember any company I worked for allowing automatic updates. IME the IT dept downloaded the patch and patched just the IT department and left it like that for about a month (to ensure the patch didn't break any programs) then pushed it out across the rest of the company. Even then after the patch was pushed out, it usually broke a few pc's (admittedly it was more than likely the pc was a couple of years old with probably non standard programs installed)
The network oriented tools allow for testing before approving for global deployment. SUS, WSUS and System Center have always had that capability. And IT departments get access to patching rollout reports etc.

There really is little excuse in this day and age, or really since MS started to be Internet aware back in the W2K days...

Ok, as I suspected, things have changed since I was in IT, around the late 90's early 2000's.
I still remember getting paid £1k for 6 hours playing pc games work on Jan 1st 2000  :) ;D
Surely you could make that in four hours now.....with a long enough detour  ;D
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 16 May 2017, 20:02:13
I found this out just last week when I went to Vodafone to renew my contract. No Nokia/Window phones are now offered by Vodafone. I have had Nokia, then Windows for ever, but the manager explained Windows and Apple are in decline and it is all down to the other main players like Samsung. Since Gates and Job left the scene those companies have lost their direction.

How things in IT change so quickly! ::) ::) :o
Windows phones are a dead duck now Lizzie, Microsoft kept threating about a possible new Surface Phone, but it probably wont happen or be any good for non Business use.

In a nut shell, Nokia are now free from MS, so all there new phones will be Android based, there current Nokia 6 in 64gb form is actually a nice spec'ed phone for the price, just under 250 quid with the Nokia 3 and 5 being budget versions. Any time now Nokia are launching the Nokia 8/9 which will be there revival Flagship models to compete with the likes of iPhone and Samsung models, surprised, or maybe not, that Vodafone never told you this.

Thanks zirk :y

No, all Vodafone said was something about an old phone of theirs being relaunched, but with a new operating system; the number, 6310 or was it 3110 (??) seemed very familiar, as a phone I once had years back. I love Nokia, and currently have a Nokia (Windows) Lumia 930, which is almost brand new after I made a warranty claim for the same phone. I will be hoping the new ones are available when I need it ;)

Yes they're also re launching the 3310, but this time with a Colour Screen, about 50 quid Sim Free. No 3 or 4G Connectivity, but it doses make phone calls. Also has a low res 2mp Camera for taking those early 2001 style pictures, and if your Music or Film lover it has, wait for it, ......   a 16Mb internal memory, yes Mb.




(http://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/RBDRAe6JPpRUFqyWACGW5Q-1200-80.jpg)

That is interesting, and for those who still just want to make calls only, a winner I would think.  For me though I have got far too used to an iPhone to now go back in time ;)
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: zirk on 16 May 2017, 20:24:58
That is interesting, and for those who still just want to make calls only, a winner I would think.  For me though I have got far too used to an iPhone to now go back in time ;)
Quote - "I have had Nokia, then Windows for ever"

And theirs me thinking you walked into Vodafone Store because you was an avid Nokia / Windows Phone User.  :-\
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 16 May 2017, 21:24:54
That is interesting, and for those who still just want to make calls only, a winner I would think.  For me though I have got far too used to an iPhone to now go back in time ;)
Quote - "I have had Nokia, then Windows for ever"

And theirs me thinking you walked into Vodafone Store because you was an avid Nokia / Windows Phone User.  :-\

No, I walked into the Vodafone store to renew my contract as I / my company has dealt with that firm since 1990. I have had Nokia phones for much of that time, but recently it became a Windows Nokia, so I prefer their system, with also Windows 10 on my PC. I do not want to change, but by the sounds of it I will have to as IT has moved on with Windows being left behind in the phone market ;)

Shame :'(
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 16 May 2017, 21:32:21
Either you have an iPhone or you don't  ???  To be clear iPhone aren't made by Nokia, and they most certainly don't use Windows :D
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 16 May 2017, 22:03:58
Whatever people call IPhones,  my phone has a touch screen, I can view the Internet, send emails, have apps that give me all kinds of access to information, along with interaction and a digital camera.

It is not made by Apple, but why can't I still use the generic term then of "iPhone" for my all singing and dancing device that does all that an Apple phone does which experts tell me is fading from the market anyway. What is so special about what you believe an iPhone is? :-\

Not being funny; just asking as I see little difference.

I have an Apple IPad so I know what functions that has, which actually my Nokia Windows Lumia 930 has on a smaller screen scale ;)
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Entwood on 16 May 2017, 22:35:18
The "common" way of referring to phones such as yours is "Smartphone" for non-apple products and iPhone for apple products. Might sound pedantic but there are pretty major differences in what they can (and more often .. can't) do. Also .. I can help out folks with Samsung/Sony/Lumina etc .. basically anything that runs android, but haven't got a clue about apple software .. so if someone says they have an iphone I say sorry .. if the say they have a smartphone .. I'll take a look .. :)

but ... its your phone .. call it what you like :)  just expect others to think you have something you don't ....  :)
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: STEMO on 17 May 2017, 07:55:44
The terms 'iphone' and 'ipad' are patented by Apple, so, as Nigel says, you can call it whatever you like, but if you say iPhone, people will expect to see an Apple product.
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: grifter on 17 May 2017, 09:14:01
Probably still running unsupported Software, XP etc, what do they expect.  ::)

Can confirm NHS does use a lot of old unsupported software, and a lot of idiots mainly managers ;D. Part of the problem is they have so many old legacy systems that so many people are used to that they are struggling to come up with viable replacements quickly enough to enable them to switch off the old servers. Server 2003 is still running away on one of our machines believe it or not. There is also a lot of compatibility issues with Web based tools that will run on one browser and not another, including in that the auto update of IE which causes legacy systems to fail as they won't run on newer/latest versions of IE.
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: TheBoy on 17 May 2017, 13:57:34
LZ, calling a Windows phone an iPhone is similar to calling a Focus an Omega. They both sort of do similar things, but are completely different.


My stupid Windows phone, a MS badged Lumia, drives me mad
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: aaronjb on 17 May 2017, 14:04:55
LZ, calling a Windows phone an iPhone is similar to calling a Focus an Omega. They both sort of do similar things, but are completely different.


My stupid Windows phone, a MS badged Lumia, drives me mad

It's like saying you're going to do the hoovering when you own a Dyson.. oh, wait. Bad example! ;D
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 17 May 2017, 16:15:46
The "common" way of referring to phones such as yours is "Smartphone" for non-apple products and iPhone for apple products. Might sound pedantic but there are pretty major differences in what they can (and more often .. can't) do. Also .. I can help out folks with Samsung/Sony/Lumina etc .. basically anything that runs android, but haven't got a clue about apple software .. so if someone says they have an iphone I say sorry .. if the say they have a smartphone .. I'll take a look .. :)

but ... its your phone .. call it what you like :)  just expect others to think you have something you don't ....  :)

Ah, right. Thanks. Just proves my ignorance when it comes devices that were not around when I was young! ;D ;D ;D ;)
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 17 May 2017, 16:17:00
The terms 'iphone' and 'ipad' are patented by Apple, so, as Nigel says, you can call it whatever you like, but if you say iPhone, people will expect to see an Apple product.

Thanks. Yes I know I am ignorant when it comes to electronic things ;D ;D
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 17 May 2017, 16:18:17
LZ, calling a Windows phone an iPhone is similar to calling a Focus an Omega. They both sort of do similar things, but are completely different.


My stupid Windows phone, a MS badged Lumia, drives me mad

Yes, others have already highlighted my ignorance ;D  ;D :y
Title: Re: Massive ransomware attack on NHS
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 17 May 2017, 16:19:36
LZ, calling a Windows phone an iPhone is similar to calling a Focus an Omega. They both sort of do similar things, but are completely different.


My stupid Windows phone, a MS badged Lumia, drives me mad

It's like saying you're going to do the hoovering when you own a Dyson.. oh, wait. Bad example! ;D

There you are; I was not completely wrong then ;D ;D ;D ;)