Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: TheBoy on 28 September 2017, 07:55:05
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Should have closed the lot, then I wouldn't be suckered into using such a crap service, and being £70 lighter for the privilege. I make that 50p per mile, give or take, not taking into account t the taxpayer subsidies
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Obviously, that's standing room only
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I rarely use the trains, TB, so I'm with you on that, but I do use the roads. I've often thought that railways would be best concreteded over and used as roads - nice and straight, gentle gradients and right into city centres.
The stations themselves would make good (free) car parks, too!
Governt policy is to encourage more people to use railways and other public transport, but what if they got wwhat they claim to want? The already overcrowded trains and buses simply could not cope.
Just another item to add to my Manifesto as prospective Minister for Transport! :y 8)
Ron.
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A good policy, I will 2nd, when TB is our glorious leader, there's an awful lot of railway employees that would need to be included in the cull.
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When Comrades Corbyn and McDonnell get in and nationalise the railways, the service will become so abysmal that no one will use them, the whole lot will become bankrupt (along with the rest of us) and will be shut down. ::)
British Rail sandwich anyone? :)
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When Comrades Corbyn and McDonnell get in and nationalise the railways, the service will become so abysmal that no one will use them, the whole lot will become bankrupt (along with the rest of us) and will be shut down. ::)
British Rail sandwich anyone? :)
Shut down? Oh, I don't think the unions will let them get away with that!
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Ooooops I disagree. I often travel to London from West Wales, very rarely any problem, and with a senior discount card it's cheap. About £54 return. I can't drive for that, even taking into consideration tube fares.
If I stay in London, I stay a bit out of town as the hotels are cheaper, and take the train. Again rarely any problem.
It's you. They've just got it in for you. CCTV picks you up, facial recognition, train delay protocol is automatically initiated. ;)
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When Comrades Corbyn and McDonnell get in and nationalise the railways, the service will become so abysmal that no one will use them, the whole lot will become bankrupt (along with the rest of us) and will be shut down. ::)
British Rail sandwich anyone? :)
Shut down? Oh, I don't think the unions will let them get away with that!
Ah yes I forgot about them. ::) OK well if you don't mind getting on a filthy train that is 10 minutes late and delivers you to your destination 30 minutes later than advertised it'll be fine because there will be plenty of seats! ;)
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Public transport only works if it is state owned and run, and heavily subsidised.
Any train travel within a 100 mile radius should cost £3 or less. Any train travel nationwide should cost £10 or less.
You will still travel in 'cattle class' conditions much the same as now, but the price will reflect this so people will be more chilled out. :y
.......and don't get me started on why we, the taxpayer, are subsidising privately run train companies which were supposed to be mean and lean and therefore not be a drain on the taxpayer. :( :( :(
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When Comrades Corbyn and McDonnell get in and nationalise the railways, the service will become so abysmal that no one will use them, the whole lot will become bankrupt (along with the rest of us) and will be shut down. ::)
British Rail sandwich anyone? :)
Shut down? Oh, I don't think the unions will let them get away with that!
Ah yes I forgot about them. ::) OK well if you don't mind getting on a filthy train that is 10 minutes late and delivers you to your destination 30 minutes later than advertised it'll be fine because there will be plenty of seats! ;)
You could avoid all those embarrassing empty seats by paying the drivers to stay at home. Problem solved. :y
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Public transport only works if it is state owned and run, and heavily subsidised.
Any train travel within a 100 mile radius should cost £3 or less. Any train travel nationwide should cost £10 or less.
You will still travel in 'cattle class' conditions much the same as now, but the price will reflect this so people will be more chilled out. :y
.......and don't get me started on why we, the taxpayer, are subsidising privately run train companies which were supposed to be mean and lean and therefore not be a drain on the taxpayer. :( :( :(
Actually the opposite will happen... the less people pay, the more they demand.
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Public transport only works if it is state owned and run, and heavily subsidised.
Any train travel within a 100 mile radius should cost £3 or less. Any train travel nationwide should cost £10 or less.
You will still travel in 'cattle class' conditions much the same as now, but the price will reflect this so people will be more chilled out. :y
.......and don't get me started on why we, the taxpayer, are subsidising privately run train companies which were supposed to be mean and lean and therefore not be a drain on the taxpayer. :( :( :(
Actually the opposite will happen... the less people pay, the more they demand.
A bit like flying
"Wot do you mean I have to pay extra for my bags ? I paid £5 for this flight !!"
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The railways, once rebuilt and extended with HS2, 3, 4, etc are the future for the continual mass movement of people and goods.
This is a car Forum, so I expect TB and almost everyone to disagree with me. But what have your experiences been driving long distance in this country now, especially travelling to the North West or North East from the London direction, or crossing the Pennines or travelling from Liverpool and going around Manchester to the East?
During much of the day the motorways involved become giant car parks. You sit there in the never ending queue thinking why am I doing this? I also have thought repeatedly the age of long distance motoring is over. I have watched, since the 1970's, whilst motoring long distances in the UK, a constant build up of traffic no matter how many new motorways have been built, or how they have "improved" them, to bring a repetition of traffic queues, with the only change that they are getting longer and longer, with travelling times extending beyond acceptability. Our population is rapidly increasing, with of course a corresponding escalation in the number of new drivers taking their vehicles onto the road. This cannot continue, and the one way we as humans can transport ourselves en mass, apart from teleporting, is to use trains. Thousands of people can be transported very quickly, and that is why so much investment is going into the railways now, at last thank God.
As for freight, why are we putting up with our roads being clogged by long distance lorries? The loads being carried by them should be moved to the railways. It makes perfect sense, but of course there is a anti-railways lobby that is getting in the way of all this.
Beeching did what he thought was right for his political masters at the time, but as usual the politicians were only thinking ahead by 5 or 10 years. If they had had real insight the railways would have been rebuilt in the 1970's, but they were so convinced the railways were old hat and obsolete and the car was the future. How wrong they were, and how wrong they were in closing down railway routes like the Great Central main line, or the Somerset and Dorset, or the Waverley Route, and then there is more local lines that now would have been vital links in our transport system, but no were closed. Some of those, like the Polegate Line in Sussex, are now the subject of reviews to rebuild and re-open. Thank God the heritage lines have been saved and now survive with the ability to give locals an alternative transport system, with many rebuilding their main line connections.
The new age of the railways is with us and that is why the demands on them are doubling, not decreasing, and in fact are proving so successful that sometimes they just cannot cope with the numbers. That is why billions are being pumped into them to rebuild, extend, and greatly improve the Customer experience. HS1 has already made a big difference here in the South East; HS2 onwards will only spread that improvement across the Country, with far greater capacity and faster journeys.
Long live the railways! :y :y
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Oh Lizzie, you were right to predict disagreement!
The problem with railways, especially for freight, is that their end points are rarely where the goods need to be. I'm afraid I am old enough to remember the depots with their delightful Scammel vehicles, designed to be able to turn as tightly as the horse-drawn carts they replaced. Guess what they did once loaded with the freight from the trains?
Motorways and other major (and minor, really) roads have always been built long after they were desperately needed. If our planners had actually planned, we would have a network better than the Germans and your long distance journeys would be relaxing and pleasurable.
When I implement my policy of concreting them over, I would leave the overhead power supply in place, so that there would always be plentiful charging facilities for the electric vehicles, although the 25kV supply might need to be calmed down a bit!
Lizzie, I don't mind trains - especially steam - but as curiosities for the tourism and leisure industries, not to go anywhere in comfort, conveniently.
Ron.
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Oh Lizzie, you were right to predict disagreement!
The problem with railways, especially for freight, is that their end points are rarely where the goods need to be. I'm afraid I am old enough to remember the depots with their delightful Scammel vehicles, designed to be able to turn as tightly as the horse-drawn carts they replaced. Guess what they did once loaded with the freight from the trains?
Motorways and other major (and minor, really) roads have always been built long after they were desperately needed. If our planners had actually planned, we would have a network better than the Germans and your long distance journeys would be relaxing and pleasurable.
When I implement my policy of concreting them over, I would leave the overhead power supply in place, so that there would always be plentiful charging facilities for the electric vehicles, although the 25kV supply might need to be calmed down a bit!
Lizzie, I don't mind trains - especially steam - but as curiosities for the tourism and leisure industries, not to go anywhere in comfort, conveniently.
Ron.
Yes, I remember those days, but they were handling loose coal and freight in small quantities. We need to return to the idea of major rail freight head distribution centres that handle bulk freight, nowadays mostly in containers, with major companies being encouraged through normal commercial considerations to build those centres, helped by governmental "incentives".
Currently, 44 tonne lorries drive up and down our motorways to distribution centres where they are unloaded. The goods head out again on local delivery lorries to the customer. Instead the initial 44 tonne lorry haul should be phased out, with rail delivered long distance freight instead, then onto the local delivery fleet. That alone would rid the M20, M25, M4, M1, M5, M6, etc, etc, of lines of 56 mph lorries clogging the system. Pollution would be dramatically cut , and costs reduced, and with Continental Channel traffic reduced, the chance for illegal immigrants boarding lorries would also be cut. ;)
A win, win situation all round, with even car drivers being given a reprieve by the newly opened up space on the motorways being available, with their pollution and costs cut. :y :y
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You may well think that, Lizzie, but if it were economically viable, don't you think that they would already be doing just that?
Ron.
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Got to say we went to London from Peterborough 3 weeks ago on a Virgin train & it was excellent clean comfortable & very punctual £20 return each ,thought that was a fair price.
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The railways, once rebuilt and extended with HS2, 3, 4, etc are the future for the continual mass movement of people and goods.
This is a car Forum, so I expect TB and almost everyone to disagree with me. But what have your experiences been driving long distance in this country now, especially travelling to the North West or North East from the London direction, or crossing the Pennines or travelling from Liverpool and going around Manchester to the East?
During much of the day the motorways involved become giant car parks. You sit there in the never ending queue thinking why am I doing this? I also have thought repeatedly the age of long distance motoring is over. I have watched, since the 1970's, whilst motoring long distances in the UK, a constant build up of traffic no matter how many new motorways have been built, or how they have "improved" them, to bring a repetition of traffic queues, with the only change that they are getting longer and longer, with travelling times extending beyond acceptability. Our population is rapidly increasing, with of course a corresponding escalation in the number of new drivers taking their vehicles onto the road. This cannot continue, and the one way we as humans can transport ourselves en mass, apart from teleporting, is to use trains. Thousands of people can be transported very quickly, and that is why so much investment is going into the railways now, at last thank God.
As for freight, why are we putting up with our roads being clogged by long distance lorries? The loads being carried by them should be moved to the railways. It makes perfect sense, but of course there is a anti-railways lobby that is getting in the way of all this.
Beeching did what he thought was right for his political masters at the time, but as usual the politicians were only thinking ahead by 5 or 10 years. If they had had real insight the railways would have been rebuilt in the 1970's, but they were so convinced the railways were old hat and obsolete and the car was the future. How wrong they were, and how wrong they were in closing down railway routes like the Great Central main line, or the Somerset and Dorset, or the Waverley Route, and then there is more local lines that now would have been vital links in our transport system, but no were closed. Some of those, like the Polegate Line in Sussex, are now the subject of reviews to rebuild and re-open. Thank God the heritage lines have been saved and now survive with the ability to give locals an alternative transport system, with many rebuilding their main line connections.
The new age of the railways is with us and that is why the demands on them are doubling, not decreasing, and in fact are proving so successful that sometimes they just cannot cope with the numbers. That is why billions are being pumped into them to rebuild, extend, and greatly improve the Customer experience. HS1 has already made a big difference here in the South East; HS2 onwards will only spread that improvement across the Country, with far greater capacity and faster journeys.
Long live the railways! :y :y
I agree wholly with you. I find motoring when I visit the Uk a truly miserable experience. The journey from Leeds to Scarborough takes as long as it did in the seventies and that included the bottle necks of Malton, Tadcaster and York.
Mrs V is in the UK visiting her Aunt in Portpatrick. It was an easy choice between collecting our car and the six hours (on a good day) drive up there using the M69, M6 car park and that awful trucking road from Gretna Green to Stranraer OR fly into Glasgow and hire a car for the 2 and a half hour journey again held up by endless truckers going back to Northern Ireland.
The only bit I disagree with is investing for more trains and lines. Can't see where the money is going to come from to do the job properly - HS2 is just playing at what is needed. We missed the boat unlike the Spanish who have the finest high speed trains and network in the world after China. Probably built with your EU money. Maybe Corbyn would have the money off the magic money tree!
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Oh Lizzie, you were right to predict disagreement!
The problem with railways, especially for freight, is that their end points are rarely where the goods need to be. I'm afraid I am old enough to remember the depots with their delightful Scammel vehicles, designed to be able to turn as tightly as the horse-drawn carts they replaced. Guess what they did once loaded with the freight from the trains?
Motorways and other major (and minor, really) roads have always been built long after they were desperately needed. If our planners had actually planned, we would have a network better than the Germans and your long distance journeys would be relaxing and pleasurable.
When I implement my policy of concreting them over, I would leave the overhead power supply in place, so that there would always be plentiful charging facilities for the electric vehicles, although the 25kV supply might need to be calmed down a bit!
Lizzie, I don't mind trains - especially steam - but as curiosities for the tourism and leisure industries, not to go anywhere in comfort, conveniently.
Ron.
Yes, I remember those days, but they were handling loose coal and freight in small quantities. We need to return to the idea of major rail freight head distribution centres that handle bulk freight, nowadays mostly in containers, with major companies being encouraged through normal commercial considerations to build those centres, helped by governmental "incentives".
Currently, 44 tonne lorries drive up and down our motorways to distribution centres where they are unloaded. The goods head out again on local delivery lorries to the customer. Instead the initial 44 tonne lorry haul should be phased out, with rail delivered long distance freight instead, then onto the local delivery fleet. That alone would rid the M20, M25, M4, M1, M5, M6, etc, etc, of lines of 56 mph lorries clogging the system. Pollution would be dramatically cut , and costs reduced, and with Continental Channel traffic reduced, the chance for illegal immigrants boarding lorries would also be cut. ;)
A win, win situation all round, with even car drivers being given a reprieve by the newly opened up space on the motorways being available, with their pollution and costs cut. :y :y
If the railways hooked up directly to the large distribution centre this would be a good idea.
Sadly, they don't.
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LZ, as I sit on the floor of this (already late) slug with several other people (and a dog) trying to get some comfort for the next hour, I can say I do not feel I've had a remotely good service, or value for money for my £70.
Yesterday I drive be to Kingston - much further - it it was quicker, more comfortable and a damn sight cheaper.
Tuesday is went to Sheffield. Faster, cheaper and far more comfortable
Last Thursday was Ealing. Well, you get the picture.
And that's before the 40-50% subsidy.
HS2 we already know will be a flop, as soon t does nothing useful or unique, or needed. And will never be finished
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And I'm comparing the heavily subsidised trains with the awful state of the roads, and the self centred morons using them
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Oh dear, current speed for last 5 mins is 0mph. Did over just announced he can see a stream from f reds, and that's unusual for this section. Sigh.
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Of course, there is a far easier solutions to road transport congestion...
Derestrict the lorries and call it done :y
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LZ, as I sit on the floor of this (already late) slug with several other people (and a dog) trying to get some comfort for the next hour, I can say I do not feel I've had a remotely good service, or value for money for my £70.
Yesterday I drive be to Kingston - much further - it it was quicker, more comfortable and a damn sight cheaper.
Tuesday is went to Sheffield. Faster, cheaper and far more comfortable
Last Thursday was Ealing. Well, you get the picture.
And that's before the 40-50% subsidy.
HS2 we already know will be a flop, as soon t does nothing useful or unique, or needed. And will never be finished
I really do sympathize with you TB. I often had all that discomfort in the past. But, the country IS going through a huge new investment in the railways, with new track, stations and longer trains, which means it will get much better. HS1 has already given greater mileage capacity in the South East, and this will be even more true once HS2, 3, 4 etc are built. Thousands of miles of additional track, built for high speed running. It can only get better, and will give a far better alternative of sitting in a traffic jam every time we travel anywhere in the country. Toilet facilitates (ask any women how important that is!), coffee, tea, alcohol and food available; how attractive that all is when you are on the M6 in a jam stretching 10 miles!
As for freight, yes it MUST be encouraged with future financial and practical planning to go (back!) onto the railways. Then Varche, I and many tens of thousands of people will not be regularly caught up in endless, and lengthening, jams.
I would also add that history could be repeating itself. The railways were a big advance to goods, and people, travelling quickly, in comfort (relatively) rather than going by slow moving horse and carts or stage coaches over terrible "roads". Railways are again going to prove a big advance to goods, and the mass movement of people, travelling quickly, in comfort (actual) rather than going by very slow moving lorries and cars over highly congested, falling apart, roads. 8) 8) :D :D :y
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Rather than spending billions on Victorian technology with HS2 etc we should be investing in MagLev trains! :y
Just give the Magic Money Tree another shake, it'll be fine! ::) ;D
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freight[/highlight], why are we putting up with our roads being clogged by long distance lorries? The loads being carried by them should be moved to the railways. It makes perfect sense, but of course there is a anti-railways lobby that is getting in the way
.
Written by someone who has no idea about road haulage and freight,
How do you get the freight to and from the railhead, how do you get the goods to the customers,how do you get 20,000 boxes of a product to a rdc.
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freight[/highlight], why are we putting up with our roads being clogged by long distance lorries? The loads being carried by them should be moved to the railways. It makes perfect sense, but of course there is a anti-railways lobby that is getting in the way
.
Written by someone who has no idea about road haulage and freight,
How do you get the freight to and from the railhead, how do you get the goods to the customers,how do you get 20,000 boxes of a product to a rdc.
And this has not been written by someone who has properly read my post #15 when I particularly specified:
"Currently, 44 tonne lorries drive up and down our motorways to distribution centres where they are unloaded. The goods head out again on local delivery lorries to the customer. Instead the initial 44 tonne lorry haul should be phased out, with rail delivered long distance freight instead, then onto the local delivery fleet. That alone would rid the M20, M25, M4, M1, M5, M6, etc, etc, of lines of 56 mph lorries clogging the system. Pollution would be dramatically cut , and costs reduced, and with Continental Channel traffic reduced, the chance for illegal immigrants boarding lorries would also be cut."
In the same post I also stated:
" We need to return to the idea of major rail freight head distribution centres that handle bulk freight, nowadays mostly in containers, with major companies being encouraged through normal commercial considerations to build those centres, helped by governmental "incentives". "
As I was in the retail industry for 35 years I also understand goods distribution, having had involvement in central distribution "hubs". I know what I am suggesting could be done, if there was the political will.
;)
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Of course, there is a far easier solutions to road transport congestion...
Derestrict the lorries and call it done :y
the thought of a 70mph truckdriver, watching porn or TV worries me,
they will need better drivers.
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freight[/highlight], why are we putting up with our roads being clogged by long distance lorries? The loads being carried by them should be moved to the railways. It makes perfect sense, but of course there is a anti-railways lobby that is getting in the way
.
Written by someone who has no idea about road haulage and freight,
How do you get the freight to and from the railhead, how do you get the goods to the customers,how do you get 20,000 boxes of a product to a rdc.
And this has not been written by someone who has properly read my post #15 when I particularly specified:
"Currently, 44 tonne lorries drive up and down our motorways to distribution centres where they are unloaded. The goods head out again on local delivery lorries to the customer. Instead the initial 44 tonne lorry haul should be phased out, with rail delivered long distance freight instead, then onto the local delivery fleet. That alone would rid the M20, M25, M4, M1, M5, M6, etc, etc, of lines of 56 mph lorries clogging the system. Pollution would be dramatically cut , and costs reduced, and with Continental Channel traffic reduced, the chance for illegal immigrants boarding lorries would also be cut."
;)
.
I stand by my comments,
The size of the areas needed to accept, the freight in every city would be huge, or let's try this your average 24hr, 364 day a year rdc has about 500 trucks, per day delivering stock in, it has 150 own trucks delivering 24/7 to store.
Putting trucks on trains works in Europe, because the bridges are higher, to take standard 4.0m high outfits, you can drive on a train in northern Germany and drive off in Italy.
British rolling stock is to narrow, Stobart and Tesco's tried failed. Containers by rail does work, the reason not widely used, is strikes, and capacity, o and speed.
You can quote from google, or any other reference book, but in the real world it doesn't work.If it did we would be using it.
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We are too small a country geographically for rail distribution to be efficient Lizzie. I used to drive for Sainsbury's and you can think of their and other big supermarkets distribution network like a spiders web, with lorries picking up and dropping off all over the place. ;)
So if they needed a container of goods to go from Bristol to Manchester, first a truck would have to take it from Sainsbury's RDC to the nearest rail yard, where it would probably sit around for a few hours before being loaded onto the train. The train would probably take a day to load! Then the train would probably take 5 or 6 hours to get to Manchester as freight trains are slower and passenger trains have priority. It would then sit in the yard at Manchester for a few hours before it was unloaded and loaded onto the truck that would take it to Sainsbury's nearest RDC. I think realistically you would have to allow 48 hours for that single container to get from Sainsbury's Bristol Depot to their Manchester depot. ::)
Meanwhile a truck has done the round trip from Bristol to Manchester in about 12 hours which includes getting stuck in jams, drivers break and waiting to get unloaded and reloaded with a new load to take back to Bristol from Manchester. ;)
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freight[/highlight], why are we putting up with our roads being clogged by long distance lorries? The loads being carried by them should be moved to the railways. It makes perfect sense, but of course there is a anti-railways lobby that is getting in the way
.
Written by someone who has no idea about road haulage and freight,
How do you get the freight to and from the railhead, how do you get the goods to the customers,how do you get 20,000 boxes of a product to a rdc.
And this has not been written by someone who has properly read my post #15 when I particularly specified:
"Currently, 44 tonne lorries drive up and down our motorways to distribution centres where they are unloaded. The goods head out again on local delivery lorries to the customer. Instead the initial 44 tonne lorry haul should be phased out, with rail delivered long distance freight instead, then onto the local delivery fleet. That alone would rid the M20, M25, M4, M1, M5, M6, etc, etc, of lines of 56 mph lorries clogging the system. Pollution would be dramatically cut , and costs reduced, and with Continental Channel traffic reduced, the chance for illegal immigrants boarding lorries would also be cut."
;)
.
I stand by my comments,
The size of the areas needed to accept, the freight in every city would be huge, or let's try this your average 24hr, 364 day a year rdc has about 500 trucks, per day delivering stock in, it has 150 own trucks delivering 24/7 to store.
Putting trucks on trains works in Europe, because the bridges are higher, to take standard 4.0m high outfits, you can drive on a train in northern Germany and drive off in Italy.
British rolling stock is to narrow, Stobart and Tesco's tried failed. Containers by rail does work, the reason not widely used, is strikes, and capacity, o and speed.
You can quote from google, or any other reference book, but in the real world it doesn't work.If it did we would be using it.
No. You still do not understand what I am saying. Putting trucks on rail is only good for short distances, like going through the Chunnel. I am talking about containers being loaded at factories that are producing the goods, then they travel to the central distribution centres of the retailers or suppliers. Then they go from them on lorry to the goods point of sale. There is no complication with the more generous rail gauge in Europe, as the current standard containers will be used.
This was done once, with most factories having rail links. Some still have, like Ford who's container trains I have see going through Ashford from Europe to Ford's plants in the UK. It cannot be done overnight, but more factories / distribution centres must have a rail link.
With vision it can be done to produce a better world for us all on many levels. ;)
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I really do sympathize with you TB. I often had all that discomfort in the past. But, the country IS going through a huge new investment in the railways, with new track, stations and longer trains, which means it will get much better.
This is post the £250m rail improvements spent by Network Rail just on the Chiltern section. Which was money pissed up the wall as I've noticed precisely zero difference. The service is still crap and expensive.
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freight[/highlight], why are we putting up with our roads being clogged by long distance lorries? The loads being carried by them should be moved to the railways. It makes perfect sense, but of course there is a anti-railways lobby that is getting in the way
.
Written by someone who has no idea about road haulage and freight,
How do you get the freight to and from the railhead, how do you get the goods to the customers,how do you get 20,000 boxes of a product to a rdc.
And this has not been written by someone who has properly read my post #15 when I particularly specified:
"Currently, 44 tonne lorries drive up and down our motorways to distribution centres where they are unloaded. The goods head out again on local delivery lorries to the customer. Instead the initial 44 tonne lorry haul should be phased out, with rail delivered long distance freight instead, then onto the local delivery fleet. That alone would rid the M20, M25, M4, M1, M5, M6, etc, etc, of lines of 56 mph lorries clogging the system. Pollution would be dramatically cut , and costs reduced, and with Continental Channel traffic reduced, the chance for illegal immigrants boarding lorries would also be cut."
;)
.
I stand by my comments,
The size of the areas needed to accept, the freight in every city would be huge, or let's try this your average 24hr, 364 day a year rdc has about 500 trucks, per day delivering stock in, it has 150 own trucks delivering 24/7 to store.
Putting trucks on trains works in Europe, because the bridges are higher, to take standard 4.0m high outfits, you can drive on a train in northern Germany and drive off in Italy.
British rolling stock is to narrow, Stobart and Tesco's tried failed. Containers by rail does work, the reason not widely used, is strikes, and capacity, o and speed.
You can quote from google, or any other reference book, but in the real world it doesn't work.If it did we would be using it.
No. You still do not understand what I am saying. Putting trucks on rail is only good for short distances, like going through the Chunnel. I am talking about containers being loaded at factories that are producing the goods, then they travel to the central distribution centres of the retailers or suppliers. Then they go from them on lorry to the goods point of sale. There is no complication with the more generous rail gauge in Europe, as the current standard containers will be used.
This was done once, with most factories having rail links. Some still have, like Ford who's container trains I have see going through Ashford from Europe to Ford's plants in the UK. It cannot be done overnight, but more factories / distribution centres must have a rail link.
With vision it can be done to produce a better world for us all on many levels. ;)
not to mention a truly staggering amount of money. Where is that going to come from apart from the taxpayer( e.g. motorist) or the customer in the form of higher prices for goods?
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Lizzie, you can but dream ;D
The scenario you present is unworkable in the unlimited space of North America. Once from factory to central hubthe goods still need distributing to the RDCs and onto stores. One train might manage the first leg. But the rest is by truck.
Trains simply don't work unless you're moving a whole train from A to B... ie Solihull to Southampton ::)
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freight[/highlight], why are we putting up with our roads being clogged by long distance lorries? The loads being carried by them should be moved to the railways. It makes perfect sense, but of course there is a anti-railways lobby that is getting in the way
.
Written by someone who has no idea about road haulage and freight,
How do you get the freight to and from the railhead, how do you get the goods to the customers,how do you get 20,000 boxes of a product to a rdc.
And this has not been written by someone who has properly read my post #15 when I particularly specified:
"Currently, 44 tonne lorries drive up and down our motorways to distribution centres where they are unloaded. The goods head out again on local delivery lorries to the customer. Instead the initial 44 tonne lorry haul should be phased out, with rail delivered long distance freight instead, then onto the local delivery fleet. That alone would rid the M20, M25, M4, M1, M5, M6, etc, etc, of lines of 56 mph lorries clogging the system. Pollution would be dramatically cut , and costs reduced, and with Continental Channel traffic reduced, the chance for illegal immigrants boarding lorries would also be cut."
;)
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I stand by my comments,
The size of the areas needed to accept, the freight in every city would be huge, or let's try this your average 24hr, 364 day a year rdc has about 500 trucks, per day delivering stock in, it has 150 own trucks delivering 24/7 to store.
Putting trucks on trains works in Europe, because the bridges are higher, to take standard 4.0m high outfits, you can drive on a train in northern Germany and drive off in Italy.
British rolling stock is to narrow, Stobart and Tesco's tried failed. Containers by rail does work, the reason not widely used, is strikes, and capacity, o and speed.
You can quote from google, or any other reference book, but in the real world it doesn't work.If it did we would be using it.
No. You still do not understand what I am saying. Putting trucks on rail is only good for short distances, like going through the Chunnel. I am talking about containers being loaded at factories that are producing the goods, then they travel to the central distribution centres of the retailers or suppliers. Then they go from them on lorry to the goods point of sale. There is no complication with the more generous rail gauge in Europe, as the current standard containers will be used.
This was done once, with most factories having rail links. Some still have, like Ford who's container trains I have see going through Ashford from Europe to Ford's plants in the UK. It cannot be done overnight, but more factories / distribution centres must have a rail link.
With vision it can be done to produce a better world for us all on many levels. ;)
not to mention a truly staggering amount of money. Where is that going to come from apart from the taxpayer( e.g. motorist) or the customer in the form of higher prices for goods?
I am not going to pretend I have all the answers; that is why we have "experts" and people with real vision, who then kick the politicians into action.
However, I have suggested concrete ways we could go forward from where we are now. I will ask what alternative do we really have? Our roads are packed, and ever increasingly so producing pollution and creating ever increasing costs. Just look at the pot hole situation, and the fact many of our roads are worn out. So do we Tarmac the whole of the U.K., still finding that is never enough? Do we continue to pour billions into a failing transport system where to move the goods we do we need ever bigger lorries that smash up our roads even more, let alone fill them up?
As I stated before, this is a car forum so the car is #1 to many of us. But how can this continue. Look at the facts today, then think as to what it will be like when our population reaches 70 million.
We need a plan B before 2050. ;)
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Besides LZ, you don't HAVE to live on the channel freight corridor ::)
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I have a plan to sort out things for me before 2050, as do you Lizzie. We’ll both be dead. :)
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Lizzie, you can but dream ;D
The scenario you present is unworkable in the unlimited space of North America. Once from factory to central hubthe goods still need distributing to the RDCs and onto stores. One train might manage the first leg. But the rest is by truck.
Trains simply don't work unless you're moving a whole train from A to B... ie Solihull to Southampton ::)
I am not speaking about the USA; I am talking about the UK. I have also explained twice that the train should be used for the first journey from factory to distribution centre, then lorry to retail outlet/customer (at least until we can deliver light goods by air!), as that is the only option so far.
Nothing I am suggesting is revolutionary. In the 1950's goods were often taken from factory / or production area by train from their back doors. This method greatly assisted the Industrial Revolution, and served us well until the railway distribution system was cut and the road lobby took over, with little appetite by the governments of the day to give the railways what they desperately required; massive investment. I am suggesting reversing this and, for the right reasons for the economy, British industry, and our environment, including our mental health (sitting in long queues of traffic does this no good!) bringing the railways to the forefront of both freight and people movement. If we think we can afford the current system, we most certainly can afford to build/rebuild the railways to 21st century standards. ;)
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Besides LZ, you don't HAVE to live on the channel freight corridor ::)
Thanks for deciding I do not have to live down here. You obviously know everything about me!! ::) ::)
I actually do HAVE to live down here.
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I have a plan to sort out things for me before 2050, as do you Lizzie. We’ll both be dead. :)
Yep my funeral plan is in place, so what happens in 2050 will be too late for me as well STEMO. I just want my grand children to enjoy a better World :y
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Have a read of this, Lizzie, should keep you quiet for a while. Pay particular attention to the quick response part.
http://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/full/10.1108/09590551011085975?mobileUi=0&
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Besides LZ, you don't HAVE to live on the channel freight corridor ::)
Thanks for deciding I do not have to live down here. You obviously know everything about me!! ::) ::)
I actually do HAVE to live down here.
No-one has to live in Ashford...
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Have a read of this, Lizzie, should keep you quiet for a while. Pay particular attention to the quick response part.
http://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/full/10.1108/09590551011085975?mobileUi=0&
Thanks for that STEMO. That is an excellent report :y :y
Much of it was known about when I was last involved in retail distribution. I remember the days when manufacturers delivered direct to our stores, but then we as retailers re-organised that to them delivering to distribution centres to improve our stock holdings and to better meet customer demands in a fast moving sector of retail. We retained our direct margins and bonuses, whilst the manufacturers saved on their distribution costs. It was win win all round.
That report does not rule out the initial product distribution from factory to CD centre by train. It does highlight speed, correctly, as being an essential factor in the retail supply chain. With a redirection of investment and redrawing the plans of the logistics world, there is no reason why the railways cannot be used if the new railways are faster than road distribution. I remember Cadburys at their Borneville plant still having a rail link. So this is just one example of how, with a new approach, the raw materials could go into a production plant, with the finished goods going out, all by rail.
Fresh eyes and imagination is all that is required. The rest I have said already ;)
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Might I refer you back to my proposal as future Minister of Transport, now slightly modified: concreting over the railways and devoting them to lorries would ease a lot of the congestion they create on normal roads.
Incidentally, if they run on ex-railway lines, they can then rightly be called "trucks" - on the road they are LORRIES in this country.
Also of course, our road network could be massively expanded if ALL monies collected in taxation of the motorists were spend on the roads - about ten times what is currently spent!
Ron.
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I am very supportive of the trains, they take people off the roads I want to use. Only on Tuesday a colleague and I had a a "race" to the Grant Thornton offices in London (Zone 1, near Moorgate)for a 0930 meeting. We started at Watford where we were hotelling it due to a meeting on weds.
He took the "fast" train and tube, plus a 5 minute walk either end. I took the Swede He arrived about 30seconds before I did, looking like he had taken a shower in someone else's sweat. He paid £23 for a return ticket plus zone 1 tube. My parking was a hefty £24 at an NCP 75yards from the office.
For me, a cost of £1 (plus a few quid in fuel) and 30 seconds was worth the comfort and relaxation of my own personal space, even had the company not paid my parking. :y this experience mirrors what I found when I worked in London for 18months. If you took a bit of care about where you parked and used door to door times rather than TFL fabrications, there was basically nothing in it, either cost or time wise.
However, I do acknowledge that this would not be the case if everyone thought as I do. These days, if I were in central London I'd buy a motorbike (and learn to ride it).
Where I do think rail has a place is for "inland ports" where you can ship entire trains of containers at once and relieve the choke points around out major freight ports.
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The big problem is politics. It is all so short term.
Imagine being the party that said you are all going to be worse off each year for years to the tune of £2000 each so that our grandchildren have a better life. They would be out next election. That is precisely the reason that our transport and NHS etc haven't ben addressed. Imagine being the politician that introduces road mile charging(inevitable) or pay for appointments with doc/consultant (inevitable). They would be vilified.
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In principle, I'm with Lizzie on this. If possible take a lot of the freight off the roads. Then ban stupid drivers from the roads for life, leaving them only public transport to get around.
We would then be back to where we were a few decades ago, when the roads weren't constantly log jammed with vehicles, many of which are driven by utter morons.
Happy days are here again. :D :)
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In principle, I'm with Lizzie on this. If possible take a lot of the freight off the roads. Then ban stupid drivers from the roads for life, leaving them only public transport to get around.
We would then be back to where we were a few decades ago, when the roads weren't constantly log jammed with vehicles, many of which are driven by utter morons.
Happy days are here again. :D :)
Oh yes, those glorious days in the 1970's when I drove out on business and, with the exception of Greater London, rarely joined a long queue of traffic. Mostly I drove relaxed and arrived at my destination bang on time. Since then it has just got worse and worse, and now I rarely NOT join a lengthy queue of traffic ::)
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But you were doubtless sitting in a horrendous mustard-coloured velour box built by brummy communists.
Some elements of the past are best left there. ;D
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I was sitting in a Chevette HS, looking out the side window while steering it on the throttle. They were definitely happy days. :P ;D
Liverpool docks to Colchester in in 3 hours 20, when the last 100 miles from the M1 to Colchester was all single carriage way.
We don't just think it was better in the old days. It was better. :)
Oh, and I had hair. Lots and lots of hair. Now have a 9 inch centre parting. ;D
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I remember Nottingham to Scarborough in the 70's in times always less than now.
So progress is more comfortable cars but slower journey times.
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Lizzie in the next few years trucks will be driverless and working 23/7 while the rail unions will let £80k+pa train drivers be phased out at about the time as hell freezes over, making the railways even less competitive. :( :( :(
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Wait on, driverless trains, better signalling and more trains per hour. Ive seen the future ( well i cant sleep)
In 1980 i remember they had damn fine driverless underground trains in Russia.
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Besides LZ, you don't HAVE to live on the channel freight corridor ::)
Thanks for deciding I do not have to live down here. You obviously know everything about me!! ::) ::)
I actually do HAVE to live down here.
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Ar the penny just dropped.
Miss LZ wants all the smelly big lorries banned, because all them lorries, exiting the channel tunnel, are adding 5 minutes to her journey times.
Sorry LZ but even after brexit, them trucks will still come streaming in every 45mins, and I think 60 trucks per train.
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In principle, I'm with Lizzie on this. If possible take a lot of the freight off the roads. Then ban stupid drivers from the roads for life, leaving them only public transport to get around.
We would then be back to where we were a few decades ago, when the roads weren't constantly log jammed with vehicles, many of which are driven by utter morons.
Happy days are here again. :D :)
Oh yes, those glorious days in the 1970's when I drove out on business and, with the exception of Greater London, rarely joined a long queue of traffic. Mostly I drove relaxed and arrived at my destination bang on time. Since then it has just got worse and worse, and now I rarely NOT join a lengthy queue of traffic ::)
Traffic congestion has been deliberately engineered by the hotel industry. Big hotel chains employ arrmies of drivers to just clog up the roads, so that if you really absolutely must be somewehere with 100% certainty and on time, you stay over the night before ;)
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But you were doubtless sitting in a horrendous mustard-coloured velour box built by brummy communists.
Some elements of the past are best left there. ;D
.....and I was in a brand new red Escort Mk1 1100, feeling like I was the bees-knees. What happy memories. 8) 8) 8) ;)
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Besides LZ, you don't HAVE to live on the channel freight corridor ::)
Thanks for deciding I do not have to live down here. You obviously know everything about me!! ::) ::)
I actually do HAVE to live down here.
.
Ar the penny just dropped.
Miss LZ wants all the smelly big lorries banned, because all them lorries, exiting the channel tunnel, are adding 5 minutes to her journey times.
Sorry LZ but even after brexit, them trucks will still come streaming in every 45mins, and I think 60 trucks per train.
Too true! ;D ;D ;D ;D :y
Seriously though you should see how those lorries are parking anywhere and everywhere down here during their driving breaks. They are also smashing up the roads! ::) ::) Of course they are still considering building a 3,000 lorry park on lovely green fields for when "Operation Stack" is required. Better than the M20 being used as a lorry park though, when we all have to use diversions to get anywhere, and you have 44 tonne Continental trucks going through local housing estates in a bid to bypass the road jams due to the M20 being closed! >:( >:( >:(
There must be a better way, and that is the railways! ;)
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Besides LZ, you don't HAVE to live on the channel freight corridor ::)
Thanks for deciding I do not have to live down here. You obviously know everything about me!! ::) ::)
I actually do HAVE to live down here.
.
Ar the penny just dropped.
Miss LZ wants all the smelly big lorries banned, because all them lorries, exiting the channel tunnel, are adding 5 minutes to her journey times.
Sorry LZ but even after brexit, them trucks will still come streaming in every 45mins, and I think 60 trucks per train.
Too true! ;D ;D ;D ;D :y
Seriously though you should see how those lorries are parking anywhere and everywhere down here during their driving breaks. They are also smashing up the roads! ::) ::) Of course they are still considering building a 3,000 lorry park on lovely green fields for when "Operation Stack" is required. Better than the M20 being used as a lorry park though, when we all have to use diversions to get anywhere, and you have 44 tonne Continental trucks going through local housing estates in a bid to bypass the road jams due to the M20 being closed! >:( >:( >:(
There must be a better way, and that is the railways! ;)
I think the answer to that is to move the offload point for the trucks somewhere else - probably a dedicated 'port' somewhere close to the M25 junction with the M2/M20. After all, I'd bet that the vast majority of the trucks go that way, and after BREXIT there is probably going to have to be a large customs clearance point anyway. What's the point of offloading all the lorries from the train at Folkstone and then the lorries all drive up the M2/M20 when the train could 'drive' up much closer to London/M25 and offload there?
After the M25 it's more difficult because the lorries routes would spread out like a herd of cats.
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Rail distribution can and does work, the 8 trains a day to/from Dirft confirm that (and the fact its being expanded with increased rail capacity included).
As for road congestion, ban lorries from overtaking in daylight hours would make a big difference (and given their speed deltas are bog all wont impact the haulage side)
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Actually, just checked, the 8 trains is the Tescos only, there are up to another 10 or so to the main railhead
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Continental 44t lorries are exactly the same size as UK 44t lorries ;D
Incidentally that the roads are breaking up suggests a lack of foresight on behalf of your planners... Hundreds of trucks a day shouldn't be a surprise given the proximity to one of the busiest ports in the country... Being halfway between said port and the only available motorway with connections to the rest of the UK (M25) notwithstanding.
Modern Ashford has only grown because of the Channel Tunnel, and being a large area relatively flat land makes it ideal for building a supersized truck Park. It's about time UK lorryists had some decent facilities.
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Actually, just checked, the 8 trains is the Tescos only, there are up to another 10 or so to the main railhead
Where do they originate?
Presumably carrying bulk consignments of non perishables from a n other container port. The incoming goods the presumably leave on lorries :-\
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Rail distribution can and does work, the 8 trains a day to/from Dirft confirm that (and the fact its being expanded with increased rail capacity included).
As for road congestion, ban lorries from overtaking in daylight hours would make a big difference (and given their speed deltas are bog all wont impact the haulage side)
Yes indeed, a brilliant example of what I have been saying can work if political minds and cash can be put behind it. :y :y :y :y
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Continental 44t lorries are exactly the same size as UK 44t lorries ;D
Incidentally that the roads are breaking up suggests a lack of foresight on behalf of your planners... Hundreds of trucks a day shouldn't be a surprise given the proximity to one of the busiest ports in the country... Being halfway between said port and the only available motorway with connections to the rest of the UK (M25) notwithstanding.
Modern Ashford has only grown because of the Channel Tunnel, and being a large area relatively flat land makes it ideal for building a supersized truck Park. It's about time UK lorryists had some decent facilities.
Did I say any different? :-\
The difference is that foreign plated lorries make a huge percentage of the overall 44 tonne traffic.
As for planning stronger roads; that has been done, but as lorries have grown in size and number, they are not strong enough. But, instead of spending huge sums reinforcing all roads, let us spend that money on the new railway system. ;)
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Actually, just checked, the 8 trains is the Tescos only, there are up to another 10 or so to the main railhead
Where do they originate?
Presumably carrying bulk consignments of non perishables from a n other container port. The incoming goods the presumably leave on lorries :-\
Ports and other rail connected distribution points (Scotland, London Gateway etc). :y
Makes sense as the there is no better means of moving the bulk items
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Actually, just checked, the 8 trains is the Tescos only, there are up to another 10 or so to the main railhead
Where do they originate?
Presumably carrying bulk consignments of non perishables from a n other container port. The incoming goods the presumably leave on lorries :-\
Ports and other rail connected distribution points (Scotland, London Gateway etc). :y
Makes sense as the there is no better means of moving the bulk items
Like this you mean?:
http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=British%20Transport%20Commission&objid=1996-7038_BTF_52_24
That is how it was done! :D ;)
Now they would move them by road, holding up thousands of motorists and costing the economy and them tens of thousands of pounds in extra costs >:(
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As for planning stronger roads; that has been done, but as lorries have grown in size and number, they are not strong enough. But, instead of spending huge sums reinforcing all roads, let us spend that money on the new railway system.
Extra spending which would have been avoided if planners could see past the end of their noses.
Growth makes the world go round... Failing to at least acknowledge that fact, let alone allow or prepare for it was a criminal waste of public money brought about from pandering to left wing nimbyism.
The only way to remove those trucks would be to run a double width truck train straight to Birmingham. Good luck selling the idea though... ;)
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Actually, just checked, the 8 trains is the Tescos only, there are up to another 10 or so to the main railhead
Where do they originate?
Presumably carrying bulk consignments of non perishables from a n other container port. The incoming goods the presumably leave on lorries :-\
Ports and other rail connected distribution points (Scotland, London Gateway etc). :y
Makes sense as the there is no better means of moving the bulk items
Presumably all non urgent due to load/unload times.
Big difference between single oversized loads and mixed consignment bulk loads.
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As for planning stronger roads; that has been done, but as lorries have grown in size and number, they are not strong enough. But, instead of spending huge sums reinforcing all roads, let us spend that money on the new railway system.
Extra spending which would have been avoided if planners could see past the end of their noses.
Growth makes the world go round... Failing to at least acknowledge that fact, let alone allow or prepare for it was a criminal waste of public money brought about from pandering to left wing nimbyism.
The only way to remove those trucks would be to run a double width truck train straight to Birmingham. Good luck selling the idea though... ;)
DG, Isambard Kingdom Brunel designed just that with his 7'1" gauge railway, but it it wasn't taken up by other operators, so we are stuck with 4'8.5" standard gauge. If his gauge prevailed, think of the extra capacity - and safety - we could have had. 8)
Ron.
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Actually, just checked, the 8 trains is the Tescos only, there are up to another 10 or so to the main railhead
Where do they originate?
Presumably carrying bulk consignments of non perishables from a n other container port. The incoming goods the presumably leave on lorries :-\
Ports and other rail connected distribution points (Scotland, London Gateway etc). :y
Makes sense as the there is no better means of moving the bulk items
Presumably all non urgent due to load/unload times.
Big difference between single oversized loads and mixed consignment bulk loads.
It would appear that's not necessarily the case, a reasonable mix of container types (they are unloaded to the main distribution centre within 1-2 hours and vary from standard through to chilled). I guess when your feeding a supply chain such as Tesco then bulk work well like this and lorries then take over once the goods are sorted into store drops. :y
As an example, there is a few a day that travel Coatbridge to Felixstowe calling at container drop/pickup points (including Crewe, Dirft, Wembley, Ipswich and then Felixstowe) so its very possible to move them pretty quickly and efficiently.
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I cannot resist posting this other fine example of bulk load rail movement of the past:
http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Liverpool%20Street&objid=1995-7233_LIVST_FE_157
But the railways moved massive quantities of loose freight:
http://www.railwayarchitecture.org.uk/Location/Newcastle/Forth%20Goods/Forth-Goods-7.jpg
You wonder how they kept track of it all before computers, but they did! With containers and computers now it is so much easier to move almost anything by rail :y
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Actually, just checked, the 8 trains is the Tescos only, there are up to another 10 or so to the main railhead
Where do they originate?
Presumably carrying bulk consignments of non perishables from a n other container port. The incoming goods the presumably leave on lorries :-\
Ports and other rail connected distribution points (Scotland, London Gateway etc). :y
Makes sense as the there is no better means of moving the bulk items
Presumably all non urgent due to load/unload times.
Big difference between single oversized loads and mixed consignment bulk loads.
It would appear that's not necessarily the case, a reasonable mix of container types (they are unloaded to the main distribution centre within 1-2 hours and vary from standard through to chilled). I guess when your feeding a supply chain such as Tesco then bulk work well like this and lorries then take over once the goods are sorted into store drops. :y
As an example, there is a few a day that travel Coatbridge to Felixstowe calling at container drop/pickup points (including Crewe, Dirft, Wembley, Ipswich and then Felixstowe) so its very possible to move them pretty quickly and efficiently.
Further great examples of how it can be done! :y :y
But of course there will still be people who say it cannot, like there were when the building of railways and their structures was taking place. "they will never take on; it cannot be done; that bridge will collapse with the first train, etc, etc". It was all said! ::) ::) ::)
Nothing with time, money, vision and enterprise is impossible! ;)
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Shame that the same vision wasn't applied to Ashford ::)
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Shame that the same vision wasn't applied to Ashford ::)
Oh really?
That is why we have Ashford International Station on the HS1 coming through the town, and the South Eastern Railway original had the foresight to not only build a successful railway network, but they had their main engine building facility here as well. Now Hitachi service their trains here as well. So, that is vision. All it needs is others to have the same. ;)
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As for planning stronger roads; that has been done, but as lorries have grown in size and number, they are not strong enough. But, instead of spending huge sums reinforcing all roads, let us spend that money on the new railway system.
Extra spending which would have been avoided if planners could see past the end of their noses.
Growth makes the world go round... Failing to at least acknowledge that fact, let alone allow or prepare for it was a criminal waste of public money brought about from pandering to left wing nimbyism.
The only way to remove those trucks would be to run a double width truck train straight to Birmingham. Good luck selling the idea though... ;)
DG, Isambard Kingdom Brunel designed just that with his 7'1" gauge railway, but it it wasn't taken up by other operators, so we are stuck with 4'8.5" standard gauge. If his gauge prevailed, think of the extra capacity - and safety - we could have had. 8)
Ron.
Being fussy, it was strictly speaking 7' 0 1/4", having been increased from 7' to ease movement across junctions and tight curves.
But, you are right. I have long stated what advantages there would have been if all UK main line railways had operated on the Broad Gauge. The additional loading capacities would have made railways a lot more profitable, faster and safer.
However, due to political lobbying by Stevenson supporters and other railway operators the decision was made in 1845 for all new railways to be built to a Standard, 4' 8 1/2 gauge. Thus the Broad gauge was relegated to history, but lines of this gauge survived until 1892. Today however, the advantages of wide lines and track space can still be seen along the old GWR routes. ;)
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Shame that the same vision wasn't applied to Ashford ::)
Oh really?
That is why we have Ashford International Station on the HS1 coming through the town, and the South Eastern Railway original had the foresight to not only build a successful railway network, but they had their main engine building facility here as well. Now Hitachi service their trains here as well. So, that is vision. All it needs is others to have the same. ;)
Really... HS1 doesn't have the capacity for truck trains... And the sheer inability to adequately plan for growth is staggering.
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Shame that the same vision wasn't applied to Ashford ::)
Oh really?
That is why we have Ashford International Station on the HS1 coming through the town, and the South Eastern Railway original had the foresight to not only build a successful railway network, but they had their main engine building facility here as well. Now Hitachi service their trains here as well. So, that is vision. All it needs is others to have the same. ;)
Really... HS1 doesn't have the capacity for truck trains... And the sheer inability to adequately plan for growth is staggering.
Yes, I agree with you on that one because if the governments of this country got away from the road haulage lobby they would build the HS lines to carry high speed freight. But no, when the HS 1 line was planned it was all about passenger traffic, which actually has increased nicely with the line being shared by South Eastern Javelin Trains alongside Eurostars. The political masters of the day accepted that freight lorries would travel through the Chunnel on trains, but then unload at Folkestone to drive up the M20. Fxcking stupid!
The only saving grace is that because passenger capacity is available on the HS1, freight has more pathways on the old lines.
So yes, this is a good example that you have raised of how minds must change to avoid such diabolic short term planning! ;)
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Wait on, driverless trains, better signalling and more trains per hour. Ive seen the future ( well i cant sleep)
In 1980 i remember they had damn fine driverless underground trains in Russia.
Likewise, the Docklands Light Railway has been driverless since it opened in 1987. It is also much safer where there is a platform barrier with doors that only open when a train is on the platform. :y :y :y
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Yep they had them in either Leningrad or Moscow. Very mpressive.
With better signalling could you run double the number of trains?
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that is why we have "experts" and people with real vision, who then kick the politicians into action.
Which is exactly why HS2 is going ahead... ...because by their own admission, its the "experts" who make a dollop of cash, and secure their futures.
Every "expert" I spoke to at the various HS2 events I went to pretty much said that, unprompted, after I ran circles around their figures and business plan (which was, even to the stupid, non university educated village idiot like me, randomly made up statements to get the figures so they only needed a 60-70% running subsidy from the taxpayer).
So, once you accept the "experts" have completely different agendas to the general good of the country, and make wild shit up randomly to try to justify it, you will understand all you need to understand to see its a woefully wasteful idea.
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I was sitting in a Chevette HS, looking out the side window while steering it on the throttle. They were definitely happy days. :P ;D
Liverpool docks to Colchester in in 3 hours 20, when the last 100 miles from the M1 to Colchester was all single carriage way.
We don't just think it was better in the old days. It was better. :)
Oh, and I had hair. Lots and lots of hair. Now have a 9 inch centre parting. ;D
When I lived in Aylesbury, and had my Fifi van, whose top speed as 100mph, never a mph more, I used to go to Colchester 3 times a week. Took a shade over an hour to do a shade under 100 miles. Clearly not much slowing down.
But then the dear lord invented 2 things that really oppsed the world up
1) The MPG chasers
2) Those "badge" drivers who think its prohibited to use the inner lanes.
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And why everything ends up being a half arsed, cost doubling and generallynotcomingclosetomeetinganyobjectives compromise ::)
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Of course they are still considering building a 3,000 lorry park on lovely green fields for when "Operation Stack" is required.
...
There must be a better way, and that is the railways! ;)
The same railways that want to destroy far more land through the Chilterns AOB, and even more of our green and pleasant land further up to provide a service which, lets be honest, is of no use to anybody at all.
Yeah, that's common sense. Not. ;)
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Yup. HS2 is a Cameron / Osborne vanity project that Theresa doesn't have the balls to cancel.
Once someone deems themselves "an expert", I usually stop listening to them at that point. :)
I still think that stupid people who cant drive (in all class of vehicles) should be banished to rail travel. Therefore, we need a lot more trains. :D
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Yup. HS2 is a Cameron / Osborne vanity project that Theresa doesn't have the balls to cancel.
Once someone deems themselves "an expert", I usually stop listening to them at that point. :)
I still think that stupid people who cant drive (in all class of vehicles) should be banished to rail travel. Therefore, we need a lot more trains. :D
Actually, a Blair/Brown production. That's when the plan was made and the "experts" (that being HS2 Ltd, so no conflict there then!) were assembled.
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Of course they are still considering building a 3,000 lorry park on lovely green fields for when "Operation Stack" is required.
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There must be a better way, and that is the railways! ;)
The same railways that want to destroy far more land through the Chilterns AOB, and even more of our green and pleasant land further up to provide a service which, lets be honest, is of no use to anybody at all.
Yeah, that's common sense. Not. ;)
There were diehards like you TB before the railways dramatically increased the output and length of the Industrial Revolution. Like then, the building of new lines will create 100's of thousands of new jobs, boost local economies, and build new opportunities for British Industry along their routes.
With Brexit apparently happening I think we need this marvellous opportunity to boost our industry, and what we do not need is short sighted NIMBY's like some of the aristocracy in Victorian Britain who blocked railways going over their precious lands and spoil their view with riff raff travelling far and wide. Others made fortunes by being positive, going along with it and taking full advantage of the opportunities.
In other words people in this country are either "little Englanders" or have a global horizon. ;)
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I suspect it will allow a lot of people from Birmingham to travel to London for work, if it works as well as its supposed to.
For the life of me, I cant see it working the other way round.
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I suspect it will allow a lot of people from Birmingham to travel to London for work, if it works as well as its supposed to.
For the life of me, I cant see it working the other way round.
e
The answer is that hopefully more firms will move out of hyper expensive London and workers who like living there will commute in the other direction. Other firms will spread their centres of business and their workers will commute backwards and forwards to that work.
The new routes will open up many possibilities ;)
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Won't have started HS2 before Brexit ::)
And I would wager that Gatwick has it's second runway open before the first passenger uses HS2 :D
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Lizzie, the difference between now and the Victorian era is that trains are one of several means of moving bulky/heavy freight, not just two - the other being canals and rivers.
So we need some joined up thinking to combine ALL methods in an efficient way. Britain is too small for trains to be the answer to general distribution as that's what road freight is best at. Rail is excellent for commuting into and between big cities, but it needs to be subsidised to be affordable which it certainly isn't now. We don't need more roads or tracks, we need to use what we have better.
And even if a motorway has all the lanes full of slow moving traffic it is still working.
I wasn't driving in the seventies, but all of the common trips we used to do are now possible in under a third of the time they used to take. And it's now perfectly possible to have a day trip to the NEC(for example) and still have dinner in my favourite restaurant at home.
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Indeed, my house to John O'Groats takes 12hrs25 minutes and costs1 tank of devil juice, say £70.
By train, the same journey takes anything from 16 to 26 hours, involves five or six changes and costs a minimum of £195. I still then have to catch a bus to John O'Groats ::)
A truck could hypothetically cover the same distance in 23 hours with two one hour breaks and minimum daily rest and no change of driver. Which gives the passenger train a bloody good run for its money :-X
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Lizzie, the difference between now and the Victorian era is that trains are one of several means of moving bulky/heavy freight, not just two - the other being canals and rivers.
So we need some joined up thinking to combine ALL methods in an efficient way. Britain is too small for trains to be the answer to general distribution as that's what road freight is best at. Rail is excellent for commuting into and between big cities, but it needs to be subsidised to be affordable which it certainly isn't now. We don't need more roads or tracks, we need to use what we have better.
And even if a motorway has all the lanes full of slow moving traffic it is still working.
I wasn't driving in the seventies, but all of the common trips we used to do are now possible in under a third of the time they used to take. And it's now perfectly possible to have a day trip to the NEC(for example) and still have dinner in my favourite restaurant at home.
Nick. I would be interested in why all of the common trips you used to do are now possible in under a third of the time. Maybe you use a bypass or a new stretch of Motorway.?
I have just finished reading an excellent book on the complete history of Scarborough. My dad rightly moan about the terrible snarl ups the town suffers. Years ago they thought about improving the main roads into the town but never got around to it.
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Nick. I would be interested in why all of the common trips you used to do are now possible in under a third of the time. Maybe you use a bypass or a new stretch of Motorway.?
Nick has become a bat and now flies between belfries. ;)
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Nick. I would be interested in why all of the common trips you used to do are now possible in under a third of the time. Maybe you use a bypass or a new stretch of Motorway.?
Living in Kent the biggest improvement to getting anywhere is the M25. Before that opened, visiting my grandparents in Crawley meant a tedious 2 1/2 hour journey through Tonbridge, Tunbridge Wells, East Grinstead etc. Going via Sevenoaks and down was no better. Once it opened, that became a 45minute trip. Plymouth which used to take 13 or 14 hours is easily doable in 4 1/2.
As I've frequently written, if a motorway is full of slow moving traffic, the routes nearby are always much worse. Nobody would drive through a big city(any big city) if there is a ring road.
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Ms zoom, you have this image, of an England powdered by by steam, and using canals, for transport. In the oldern days, which you seem to think are brilliant, those forms of transport did work, then they realised the road was quicker, and less unionised, goods could be ordered on a Monday, and delivered on Tuesday, unlike the rails, order Monday might get to the closest station by Friday, if there's no strike.
In Europe, the canals are wider and deeper and can accommodate larger vessels, hence why bulk cargo goes from Holland to Germany via the rhur, wind turbines destined for England travel on barges from Germany to Goole, were they are transferred to trucks.
Ford Dagenham had a rail head for coal and steel, they stopped using this due to unions and cost.
Jaguar land rover no longer use the rail link at Bromwich..
Why. It's not efficient.
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And Corbyn wants us to return to those halcyon days, when unions f*ucked everything up! >:(
Ron.
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I've often thought that railways would be best concreted over and used as roads - nice and straight, gentle gradients and right into city centres.
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Already happened in the town where I live :y , except that they turned it in to a dedicated path/cycle route away from the main traffic, complete with stopping points and picnic tables when you need a rest. Not quite what you had in mind though is it. ;D
The freight line used to run slap bang in to the centre of the Industrial area from the mainline in Princes Risborough but they concreted/covered the entire length of it ....... all seven miles of it, to make a lovely quiet path/cycle path that they named The Phoenix Trail.
So, we won't be using trains for freight anytime soon from our industrial area. ;D
As for needing the loo on a train, as a male you have to match your body movements to the sway of the trains clickety clack over the rails and fire when you are in synch with the trains movements. Sadly, the ten people that used it before you weren't aware of this method and pissed all over the seat and floor. ::) ;D
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
That reminded me of a time when I told my oldest and dearest friend a joke. George wasn't very worldly, although very clever, and I said "What do you call a dog with no tongue?"
"What?" said George.
"Smelly boll*cks", I replied.
Silence from George.
Then he went upstairs for a pee, and came down cursing me, because he got the point of the joke whilst p*ssing, and shook with laughter so much that he soaked the bathroom floor!
Ron.
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And Corbyn wants us to return to those halcyon days, when unions f*ucked everything up! >:(
Ron.
British management and governments were equally culpable.
But the description is accurate.
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Ms zoom, you have this image, of an England powdered by by steam, and using canals, for transport. In the oldern days, which you seem to think are brilliant, those forms of transport did work, then they realised the road was quicker, and less unionised, goods could be ordered on a Monday, and delivered on Tuesday, unlike the rails, order Monday might get to the closest station by Friday, if there's no strike.
In Europe, the canals are wider and deeper and can accommodate larger vessels, hence why bulk cargo goes from Holland to Germany via the rhur, wind turbines destined for England travel on barges from Germany to Goole, were they are transferred to trucks.
Ford Dagenham had a rail head for coal and steel, they stopped using this due to unions and cost.
Jaguar land rover no longer use the rail link at Bromwich..
Why. It's not efficient.
If you had read my posts fully you would know that is far from the case, and "canels"!! When did I mention them?? ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
I have a vision of freight being distributed via a modern high speed railway system on the revitalised tracks now being laid, along with High Speed routes, to massive central distribution centres that factories and warehousing would be built next to. From there electric trucks, possibly driven by computers would deliver the goods to point of sale, with other means, like the trial drones, being used to an increasing extent.
I envisage a world, well at least the UK, where we have roads free of thousands of heavy lorries and the pollution that comes with them with millions of working hours saved by people being able to travel freely on a joined up transport system. Key to that is the High Speed Railway system which will be able to equal the speed of going by air and, once more, reduced pollution. Those that want to still drive, their electric / hydrogen / hybrid cars, will be able to on clear very fast running motorways, as was envisaged way back when the M1 was opened.
Many are worried about how much land the High Speed links will require, but that is relatively a small price to pay to save millions of acres being concreted over under yet more new motorways / motorway upgrades, lorry parks, new airport runways and facilities smashing over peoples houses.
Now if you think that vision is in anyway close to a "Victorian" view of life then clearly you do not study or read history. ;)
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Nick. I would be interested in why all of the common trips you used to do are now possible in under a third of the time. Maybe you use a bypass or a new stretch of Motorway.?
Nick has become a bat and now flies between belfries. ;)
Currently flitting between 5 towers in and around Croydon. But by bus not wings
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......
I've often thought that railways would be best concreted over and used as roads - nice and straight, gentle gradients and right into city centres.
.......
Already happened in the town where I live :y , except that they turned it in to a dedicated path/cycle route away from the main traffic, complete with stopping points and picnic tables when you need a rest. Not quite what you had in mind though is it. ;D
The freight line used to run slap bang in to the centre of the Industrial area from the mainline in Princes Risborough but they concreted/covered the entire length of it ....... all seven miles of it, to make a lovely quiet path/cycle path that they named The Phoenix Trail.
So, we won't be using trains for freight anytime soon from our industrial area. ;D
As for needing the loo on a train, as a male you have to match your body movements to the sway of the trains clickety clack over the rails and fire when you are in synch with the trains movements. Sadly, the ten people that used it before you weren't aware of this method and pissed all over the seat and floor. ::) ;D
And that is the nonsense of the past when the political masters of the time (like now so often!) could see no further than 10 years time. People with no vision did that and helped create the mess we are now in. It must all be reversed for the latter half of this century. ;)
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And finally the crux...
In order to progress we must first recede fifty years ::)
Keep taking those halcyon pills, they clearly work a treat ;D
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And finally the crux...
In order to progress we must first recede fifty years ::)
Keep taking those halcyon pills, they clearly work a treat ;D
No, perhaps you want to take cyanide pills and just roll over and die, as you might as well with that negative attitude. If people like you had been the only ones around before the Industrial Revolution then that would not have happened and we would now be a back water island of Europe without any of our modern day luxeries ::) ::) ::)
Listening to your negative approach I look forward to, and thank God for, the new exciting generations. Shame I will not be around long enough to see the new age. ;)
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Well that's terribly Christian of you... ;D ;D ;D
With that pious attitude, it's no wonder the world is constantly at war ::)
When it comes to getting shit done to solve problems I am actually much better at it than you might think... :-X Also I am far from negative when it comes to the future...
It's just that you're too blinkered to notice ::)
Besides, you'll be ahead of me in the queue for TBs end game. ;)
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Play nicely, children..... ::)
Ron.
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Play nicely, children..... ::)
Ron.
Don't worry Ron. DG and I are used to playing these games when we get bored!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Whatever him and I say will not make a jot of difference about anything! Life goes on for all of us and we make the best of it :y :y
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UK elites are still in the Victorian era when it comes to new railway lines, when they should have been thinking 450mph Maglev or even faster Hyperloop. Done right they would compete with aircraft for speed and can be made more energy efficient and therefore cheaper. Practical daily commuting means a maximum of 1hr of traveling each way with 450mph making Edinburgh to London daily commuting practical. :y :y :y
Now, this really would spread the London economic effect all over the country. :y :y :y
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UK elites are still in the Victorian era when it comes to new railway lines, when they should have been thinking 450mph Maglev or even faster Hyperloop. Done right they would compete with aircraft for speed and can be made more energy efficient and therefore cheaper. Practical daily commuting means a maximum of 1hr of traveling each way with 450mph making Edinburgh to London daily commuting practical. :y :y :y
Now, this really would spread the London economic effect all over the country. :y :y :y
I agree Rod, but we have seen the backlash about the costs of the HS lines in planning, can you imagine the furore generated with the public when increasing the costs by many billions for a Maglav.
That would be the future for passenger traffic, but at the moment it could be difficult to send freight by it, although that must be the final goal :y
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UK elites are still in the Victorian era when it comes to new railway lines, when they should have been thinking 450mph Maglev or even faster Hyperloop. Done right they would compete with aircraft for speed and can be made more energy efficient and therefore cheaper. Practical daily commuting means a maximum of 1hr of traveling each way with 450mph making Edinburgh to London daily commuting practical. :y :y :y
Now, this really would spread the London economic effect all over the country. :y :y :y
I wonder if that's true. Aircraft have the unique advantage of operating in very thin air where drag is low.
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UK elites are still in the Victorian era when it comes to new railway lines, when they should have been thinking 450mph Maglev or even faster Hyperloop. Done right they would compete with aircraft for speed and can be made more energy efficient and therefore cheaper. Practical daily commuting means a maximum of 1hr of traveling each way with 450mph making Edinburgh to London daily commuting practical. :y :y :y
Now, this really would spread the London economic effect all over the country. :y :y :y
I wonder if that's true. Aircraft have the unique advantage of operating in very thin air where drag is low.
Mr Musk would concur... looking at an hour for London-Sydney and for the same price as a standard economy fare by 2022...
Interesting times ahead 8)
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I envisage a world, well at least the UK, where we have roads free of thousands of heavy lorries and the pollution that comes with them with millions of working hours saved by people being able to travel freely on a joined up transport system. Key to that is the High Speed Railway system which will be able to equal the speed of going by air and, once more, reduced pollution. Those that want to still drive, their electric / hydrogen / hybrid cars, will be able to on clear very fast running motorways, as was envisaged way back when the M1 was opened.
Many are worried about how much land the High Speed links will require, but that is relatively a small price to pay to save millions of acres being concreted over under yet more new motorways / motorway upgrades, lorry parks, new airport runways and facilities smashing over peoples houses.
It's interesting that you think a 16.5 metre long truck carrying 25 tons of stuff is a worse use of the road space than 3 cars that probably only have one occupant. Especially if that occupant is commuting 50 miles to work or travelling to a meeting that could probably be done over the phone(if it needs doing at all) both uses that are very common.
Vehicles that aren't fully loaded are an incredibly poor use of resources; solving that would be the best improvement we could make to transport issues. Unfortunately that would require a massive social change, and no politician in history would even consider trying to force such a thing.
A High Speed rail link can only be between two places a fair distance apart; if it has to stop at any point on that route it's no longer high speed. In a country where the biggest cities are only 200 miles apart that means such infrastructure is appallingly inefficient even before considering the enormous cost or environmental impact.
Any new transport scheme needs to be convienient, fast and cheap. Nobody is ever going to manage all three of those.
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UK elites are still in the Victorian era when it comes to new railway lines, when they should have been thinking 450mph Maglev or even faster Hyperloop. Done right they would compete with aircraft for speed and can be made more energy efficient and therefore cheaper. Practical daily commuting means a maximum of 1hr of traveling each way with 450mph making Edinburgh to London daily commuting practical. :y :y :y
Now, this really would spread the London economic effect all over the country. :y :y :y
Ahem! Reply #24. ::)
Rather than spending billions on Victorian technology with HS2 etc we should be investing in MagLev trains! :y
Just give the Magic Money Tree another shake, it'll be fine! ::) ;D
:)
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LZ, for the record, HS2 Ltd have absolutely, categorically stated that no freight whatsoever will be carried on HS2. Obviously, it won't be carrying many passengers either, but at least it will create artificial employment which will be heavily subsidised at our expense.
The subsidy levels HS2 Ltd have claimed they will need (which is already high) is based on their business case of *EVERY* train full to capacity on every trip (which, IIRC, is every 3 minutes (which it can't be, as it takes 20 mins to load a train, so you'll need more platforms than they have space)). Assuming absolute best case scenario that you might get a couple of full trains at peak time, then you can see its a financial disaster, that a new Beeching - if we have anyone visionary enough - will quickly close :y
As to there being full trains from Lichfield to West London, well, it doesn't happen now, so why should it happen in the future?
And as to speed, before HS2 was planned, even Chiltern could get a train from Moor Street to Marylebone in 1hr15 (obviously Network Rail have gone out of their way to increase that, seeing as their people are the seniors at HS2 which will only do it in an hour). Its all a bit too cosy, and jobs for the boys, and utterly corrupt.
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when they should have been thinking 450mph Maglev or even faster Hyperloop.
That would likely mean buying in the technology and skills. HS2 Ltd want to develop their own unique rails and bogies for HS2, rather than use cheaper, proven solutions from across the world.
So we'll end up stumping Maglev costs for HST speeds. Grand.