Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: JamesV6CDX on 10 August 2008, 18:46:10
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On my 3.0, I was changing the spark plugs.
I removed the plug on no 4, and as I did so, a piece of rubber (from the end of the plug lead), has fallen into the Bore.
I can't get it out, I've tried all sorts.
Presumably I should now remove the cylinder head to get it out? ::)
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air gun on an airline? :) get it right in to the bore so it blows out of the well not in.
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Can you bowwow a compressor and try and blow it out.
If it's rubber cant you flush it out with a water jet. Not the best way to do things, and maybe not the most practiacl, but maybe far quicker than taking the head off. :y
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I can't get an airline anywhere nearby - I am at Maria's...
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I can't get an airline anywhere nearby - I am at Maria's...
Piece of windscreen washer pipe and a sharp blow down it?
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bit of pipe and blow like fock?
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I am wondering, maybe fill the bore with water and let it float up to the top....
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bah ... he keeps beeting me to it. ;D
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James pm sent
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bah ... he keeps beeting me to it. ;D
Type faster. PMSL
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How big a piece was it? If it was metal I might worry, but a piece off the spark plug boot will burn up in no time. If you can't get it out personally I would not be too phased. Certainly not to the extent of taking the head off. Mind you there is an excellent how to written by someone called JamesV6CDX :D ;D ;)
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How big a piece was it? If it was metal I might worry, but a piece off the spark plug boot will burn up in no time. If you can't get it out personally I would not be too phased. Certainly not to the extent of taking the head off. Mind you there is an excellent how to written by someone called JamesV6CDX :D ;D ;)
UNCALLED FOR ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
But i agree if it's just the rubber is may even drop past the open valve just by turning it over
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Lol, I'm not phased by taking the heads off... just unsure if Maria's nosey neighbour will call the Police ;D
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Lol, I'm not phased by taking the heads off... just unsure if Maria's nosey neighbour will call the Police ;D
Take his head off instead ;D ;D ;D ;D
If it's rubber I'd agree with the above, is may well burn off pretty quickly.... ;)
DC
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might sit by the cats and stink, cant see it doing to much damage tho??? :-/
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take the down pipes off of ten mins ;D ;D
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is it at TDC?
Since your not doing the cambelt... (are you?)
I would think about cranking it, watch and see the pot come up, then easier to get it out? :-/
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is it at TDC?
Since your not doing the cambelt... (are you?)
I would think about cranking it, watch and see the pot come up, then easier to get it out? :-/
At the moment the cams are locked in place and the crank is at TDC with the cambelt (or what was left of the cambelt) removed...
I really think this may have to be a belt and braces heads-off job. TBH it may be worthwhile...
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is it at TDC?
Since your not doing the cambelt... (are you?)
I would think about cranking it, watch and see the pot come up, then easier to get it out? :-/
At the moment the cams are locked in place and the crank is at TDC with the cambelt (or what was left of the cambelt) removed...
I really think this may have to be a belt and braces heads-off job. TBH it may be worthwhile...
Put the new belt on, time it up, then crank it up the top and fish it out?
Heads off (not an issue for you time or skills) but there is more cost involved...
I would try and fish it out if you can
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If it is no bigger than the screw tip on a spark plug - run the engine up.
Worst case - it gets stuck in the exhaust valve seal. It will probably burn off anyway but you lose nothing as you would have to take the head off anyway.
If it gets stuck in the cats it will burn up in no time. Natural rubber is a hydrocarbon - as is oil and petrol.
If it's too big for the squish gap, try turning over with a spanner. I would probably still start it up anyway as it will still burn up in the combustion chamber.
Good luck, from The Lone Ranger...
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You need one of these.......
www.acmerubbermagnet.com :y
Suprised AA hasnt suggested it ;D
Tho if they havent got any stock left......i carnt see any reason as others have said......start it up and hope it blows out....should do if it is fairly small :y
I carnt see a bit of rubber doing any harm bouncing around inside the cylinder......worth a go imo before taking the head off :y
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I carnt see a bit of rubber doing any harm bouncing around inside the cylinder......worth a go imo before taking the head off
I agree. Absolutely worst case scenario is that it gets jammed in a valve on the way out and wedges it open. Result - valve damage and the need to whip the head off. The likelihood is that it'll just burn up without doing any damage.
Alternatively, whip the head off anyway. :-/
Not a lot to lose.
Kevin
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How long do you think it'll take to burn up?
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I carnt see a bit of rubber doing any harm bouncing around inside the cylinder......worth a go imo before taking the head off
I agree. Absolutely worst case scenario is that it gets jammed in a valve on the way out and wedges it open. Result - valve damage and the need to whip the head off. The likelihood is that it'll just burn up without doing any damage.
Alternatively, whip the head off anyway. :-/
Not a lot to lose.
Kevin
I think that depends on how big the bit off rubber is......
Would have to pretty big i would have thought to get piston to valve kissing each other :-/
As to how long to burn off.......well its gets a tad warm inside the cylinder........my chips get burnt if i leave them in the oven for 5 mins too long ;D
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Start it... I doubt it'll even get as far as the valves... It's fookin hot in them combustion chambers ::) ::) :y :y
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Put 1 finger in plug hole other finger in HT lead and get Maria to turn the key James ;D ;D ;D ;D
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You may not have to burn it up. Leave the spark plug out and fire it up. I think it might just 'pop' out. :-/
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You may not have to burn it up. Leave the spark plug out and fire it up. I think it might just 'pop' out. :-/
Sounds like the voice of experience... I've had to do it too ::) ::) :y :y
Just start it and switch straight off though if you're going to do that... It's a bit noisy!!! ;D ;D ;D
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You may not have to burn it up. Leave the spark plug out and fire it up. I think it might just 'pop' out. :-/
That was going to be my suggestion...except disconnect something to stop it firing, just turn it over on the starter for a few seconds..
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You may not have to burn it up. Leave the spark plug out and fire it up. I think it might just 'pop' out. :-/
That was going to be my suggestion...except disconnect something to stop it firing, just turn it over on the starter for a few seconds..
You really need it to fire so that it gives the full OOMPH!!
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You may not have to burn it up. Leave the spark plug out and fire it up. I think it might just 'pop' out. :-/
That was going to be my suggestion...except disconnect something to stop it firing, just turn it over on the starter for a few seconds..
You really need it to fire so that it gives the full OOMPH!!
Yep. Just not for too long long, DIS pack's are a bit fussy about misfires.
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it will burn up in seconds james dont worry about it :y
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it will burn up in seconds james dont worry about it :y
That's my opinion... Just giving other options too :y :y :y
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it will burn up in seconds james dont worry about it :y
I think it might poison the cat.
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it will burn up in seconds james dont worry about it :y
I think it might poison the cat.
doubt it very much only a bit of silcone rubber which is a hydrocarbon and will fry instantly and turn to oil vapour :y
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Doesn't silicone kill Lambdas, though????
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Doesn't silicone kill Lambdas, though????
in massive amounts yes but not a small piece of rubber :y
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It is the size of a baked bean or two, so it's really not a lot. I would worry about it gumming up, but certainly not knackering the cat.
Is it likely to damage a piston ring? :-/
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I dont even know why we're debating this. James will pull the head off it, he just cant help himself.
I've told him he'll go blind
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It is the size of a baked bean or two, so it's really not a lot. I would worry about it gumming up, but certainly not knackering the cat.
Is it likely to damage a piston ring? :-/
no more likley to damage a valve james
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Hi,
Try vacuuming it out. If you can get a short length of 8 or 10 mm tube, even bit of thin wall electrical cable sleeving biggest you can get to go down spark plug hole, fix into the end of vacuum cleaner hose, and get seal with electrical or duck tape. "Wiggle" this around inside the cylinder.
I would have thought you would get enough of a vacuum for the piece of rubber, depending on size, to at least either get sucked out or at least get stuck over the end of the piece of tube so you could gently pull it out.
Failing that, I would go with the suggestion to leave plug out an start up when you can. I reckon it will take path of least resistance and get blown out of the plug hole. If you don't put something over to catch it, I don't reckon you'll even see it go.
HTH
Roger
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Is it really silicone rubber? Like bath sealant?
If not, it will burn up in to carbon and hydrogen.
If it is silicone rubber, it's melting point is much higher. Take the plug out, earth it on the block and give it 1,500 revs. It will blow out.
Your earthing needs to be good or you're in for a shock....
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it's whatever plug leads are made of...
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I dont even know why we're debating this. James will pull the head off it, he just cant help himself.
I've told him he'll go blind
You are probaly right ;D ;D
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1st post on this thread was 18:46, it's now 21:30...
James you could have have the head off and 1/2 way to being finished by now... :y :y :y ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi,
Try vacuuming it out. If you can get a short length of 8 or 10 mm tube, even bit of thin wall electrical cable sleeving biggest you can get to go down spark plug hole, fix into the end of vacuum cleaner hose, and get seal with electrical or duck tape. "Wiggle" this around inside the cylinder.
Now, that is a good plan. :y
Even if the tube isn't big enough to take the piece of rubber, you might well be able to use it as a "rubber magnet".
Kevin
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May have to get an extension lead to run across the road... I'm not sure a vaccum cleaner would run off my 300w inverter ;D
If all fails, and I take a chance - is there a risk of piston ring damage? If not, I am not worried about much else :y
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May have to get an extension lead to run across the road... I'm not sure a vaccum cleaner would run off my 300w inverter ;D
If all fails, and I take a chance - is there a risk of piston ring damage? If not, I am not worried about much else :y
Extremly unlikely James
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May have to get an extension lead to run across the road... I'm not sure a vaccum cleaner would run off my 300w inverter ;D
If all fails, and I take a chance - is there a risk of piston ring damage? If not, I am not worried about much else :y
deffo not james :y
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Think about the gap between the cylinder wall and the piston. A couple of thou? 0.002" = 0.05mm.
The possible force that 0.05mm of HT lead rubber can exert is?
Tiny, compared to a hardened steel ring sitting in an aluminium channel.
Even if you get a bit stuck down there - and even if it is silicone rubber (which I doubt - probably natural) it will be gone in 60 seconds.
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Vacuum wont work, imho, but an airline will.... If you overfill the chamber with air it will a) pressurise it and b) disturb the piece of pesky wubber such that it can be carried oot the wee hole left. Would suggest that air be applied via a tube so as to ensure the air is entering inside the bore rather than simply blasting it willy nilly at the plug 'ole mouth...
Or leave it be. Box it up and fire it up and let it burn.... ;)
Or use air and vacuum at the same time, to ensure the wubber bit knows where it should go..... :y
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It goes without saying that a piston engine is an air compressor. About 10:1, or 7.5 bar, or 110 psi with spark plug fitted and throttle open.
Probably about the same with the spark plug out and the throttle closed.
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Vacuum wont work, imho, but an airline will.... If you overfill the chamber with air it will a) pressurise it and b) disturb the piece of pesky wubber such that it can be carried oot the wee hole left. Would suggest that air be applied via a tube so as to ensure the air is entering inside the bore rather than simply blasting it willy nilly at the plug 'ole mouth...
Or leave it be. Box it up and fire it up and let it burn.... ;)
.. and if you're going to blast it with air, it'll probably be more effective if you turn that cylinder to TDC on the compression stroke so the valves are closed and the volume of the cylinder is minimised.
Kevin
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Vacuum wont work, imho, but an airline will.... If you overfill the chamber with air it will a) pressurise it and b) disturb the piece of pesky wubber such that it can be carried oot the wee hole left. Would suggest that air be applied via a tube so as to ensure the air is entering inside the bore rather than simply blasting it willy nilly at the plug 'ole mouth...
Or leave it be. Box it up and fire it up and let it burn.... ;)
.. and if you're going to blast it with air, it'll probably be more effective if you turn that cylinder to TDC on the compression stroke so the valves are closed and the volume of the cylinder is minimised.
Kevin
correct.
Took assumption that this would be done.... :y
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Have you not got any of those thin grabbers that kids use to steal stuff out of vending machines? (not that I ever did of course..... ::))
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So.....did it come out of the plug hole???
We need to know...
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Nope. still undecided what to do. Attempts to remove have failed.
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Nope. still undecided what to do. Attempts to remove have failed.
As I was away yesterday, only just followed this thread. ::) ::)
Personally, after taking all the great advice on board and you obviously still not being able to get the piece of rubber out, I would run the engine and go for the burn out solution! ;)
Yes there is a risk (I think very small), and I am one for taking such risks, but on balance as has been said what is there to lose? If it burns, you don't have to take the head off; if there is damage, which I doubt, then you will have to take the head off as you will have to if you do nothing else! :D :D :D
Sometimes James you have to go for these things, be bold and adventerous when all else fails! Go for it! LET IT BURN!! 8-) 8-) 8-) Burn, baby, burn!! ;)
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get a piece of 3mm welding wire, and grind it to a point, and try and spear it. or dab a bit of tigerseal/sikaflex on the end of a bit of welding wire and stick to it instead.i personally would not run a engine which has a compression ratio of 10.5 to one with a foreign object in it.your call!!
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get a piece of 3mm welding wire, and grind it to a point, and try and spear it. or dab a bit of tigerseal/sikaflex on the end of a bit of welding wire and stick to it instead.i personally would not run a engine which has a compression ratio of 10.5 to one with a foreign object in it.your call!!
But this is not a piece of metal, but a small item made of rubber which will very quickly disintegrate under the intense heat and compression ;)
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Been thinking about this and would like to retract my former advice, The reason is that the piece of rubber is sitting at the side if the piston, it being a V engine. (Looking diretly at the plug hole, it will lie in the 6 o'clock position).
The squish gap is what - 15 thou? Just over 0.5 mm. The rubber piece is maybe 6 mm in diameter? It could take a LOT of force to sqeeze it down to 0.5 mm. As all the force is applied to the side of the piston, you could break the skirt or bend a con rod.
In my now considered opinion - if you are thinking of turning the engine over - do it with a spanner first.
Apologies for earlier advice.
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I think after hearing that from yourself and Mr Sassanach I may just pull the heads off. It is, after all, a 150k engine... a couple of new HGs and a new oil cooler can't hurt it...
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I think after hearing that from yourself and Mr Sassanach I may just pull the heads off. It is, after all, a 150k engine... a couple of new HGs and a new oil cooler can't hurt it...
You knew all along that you couldn't resist the excuse of removing the heads! ;) ;) ;) :y :y
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I think after hearing that from yourself and Mr Sassanach I may just pull the heads off. It is, after all, a 150k engine... a couple of new HGs and a new oil cooler can't hurt it...
You knew all along that you couldn't resist the excuse of removing the heads! ;) ;) ;) :y :y
Actually, this one time, you are wrong. It's the last thing I wanna do, purely because I have some things I need the car for very soon. It's gonna be off the road for a couple of weeks now :'(
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Fibre optic lamp source - you got any Ikea fancy jobbies knocking about? - to get the light all the way into the cylinder without blinding you in the process.
Small piece of mirror on a metal rod, so it can be bent about a bit.
Thin metal rod with a gob of sticky grease - underwater type I know works well - to pick up the wubber with. Any extra gobs of grease dropped in the cylinder will cause no probs and be quickly spread around and burnt.
Yes, it will take improvisation. Yes, it will take perseverance. But it will save quite a few squids and work hours...
I know what I would be trying before whipping the head off....
You wouldn't know I served my time as an Engineer in the Merchant Navy, would you? Solutions such as this gave more time in the bar..... ;)
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I think after hearing that from yourself and Mr Sassanach I may just pull the heads off. It is, after all, a 150k engine... a couple of new HGs and a new oil cooler can't hurt it...
Shame to have to do all that work. for a pesky piece of rubber.
Following your line of thought, you could do the valve guide oil seals too. Although, I have to say that I have never seen a smokey Meega. They seem to have got that right. (Unlike old Fords - must be 10 years of Escort & Fiesta production that those seals would go at about 60,000 miles).
One last thought - an echo of an earlier post.
One of these (http://toolmonger.com/2006/07/29/flexible-grabber-tool/)
Would sort it, if fishing is your bag. Probably a tenner from your local spares shop.
Good luck James.