Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 22 September 2024, 12:25:35
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Dropped in at my local Jaguar/land Rover dealer yesterday afternoon.
I noticed they had 4 or 5 brand new unregistered I -Pace EV400 looking forlorn and unloved. The car in the showroom, an HSE with posher Windsor leather trim and larger 22 inch wheels had a sticker price of £82414 OTR.
How much if I buy this today, I asked. I'll ask the sales manager was his reply. Five minutes later he returns with a figure of £61414 OTR....a saving of £21000 off list.
This morning he emailed to say he would be willing to drop to exactly £60,000 if I made a decision today.
Sounds good in isolation but they also have a used 10,000 mile June 2023 car for sale at £36950. :o :o
The moral of the story being don't pay anything like the full asking price for a new electric car.
Nice milk float though, and at £36950 for a 15 month old car it 'almost' makes sense. :)
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I've been reading a lot of articles about EVs, mainly because it amuses me. They are just not selling, neither are they holding any sort of value. Lease companies are losing money hand over fist on three year contracts, because the future value of the cars is nothing like what was predicted. These lease companies, along with business users, are the ones buying most of the EVs that get sold each month, domestic consumers are only about 25% of the total. Now that they are depreciating so quickly, sales of new ones will plummet. Tee hee.
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There are not many public chargers in Barnsley, unsurprisingly. The ones I come across are in three groups of two chargers. One group in a public car park and two in supermarkets (Asda and Lidl). I've seen a taxi charging at Lidl once, the other two locations, presuming they are working ok, have never had a car parked in them. Draw your own conclusions.
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I also, earlier this week, saw a chart about which fuel type depreciated most quickly. Although diesels accounted for the least number of new cars sold, they depreciated less than any other fuel type which, of course, pleased this old dinosaur. :)
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The Stalinist fines that will be levied against the car manufacturers for not selling enough EV's in our Brave New World command economy will really start to bite! ::) :-X
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The Stalinist fines that will be levied against the car manufacturers for not selling enough EV's in our Brave New World command economy will really start to bite! ::) :-X
I'm afraid if I were an overseas mainstream car manufacturer, I'd be telling Starmer to go and pork himself. We're not paying your fines and, if you don't want our cars, up yours.
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There are not many public chargers in Barnsley, unsurprisingly. The ones I come across are in three groups of two chargers. One group in a public car park and two in supermarkets (Asda and Lidl). I've seen a taxi charging at Lidl once, the other two locations, presuming they are working ok, have never had a car parked in them. Draw your own conclusions.
Yep, the same in Waitrose near us. Three posts and six chargers, so the cars are nose to nose, and on the rare occasion we see the odd car in one bay. The rest are empty, which is a waste of those empty bays.
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The Stalinist fines that will be levied against the car manufacturers for not selling enough EV's in our Brave New World command economy will really start to bite! ::) :-X
I'm afraid if I were an overseas mainstream car manufacturer, I'd be telling Starmer to go and pork himself. We're not paying your fines and, if you don't want our cars, up yours.
I might be wrong on this, but as I understand it, it's a certain percentage of their sales have to be EV's, and that percentage goes up every year? :-\
Think I read somewhere that manufacturers are rationing or manipulating deliveries of ICE cars to boost the EV percentage so that they avoid the fine. ::)
It's unbelievable that such a policy was brought in by the effing Tories! >:( Keir Stalin and the clown Red Ed Millipede maybe.... :-X ::)
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The Stalinist fines that will be levied against the car manufacturers for not selling enough EV's in our Brave New World command economy will really start to bite! ::) :-X
I'm afraid if I were an overseas mainstream car manufacturer, I'd be telling Starmer to go and pork himself. We're not paying your fines and, if you don't want our cars, up yours.
I might be wrong on this, but as I understand it, it's a certain percentage of their sales have to be EV's, and that percentage goes up every year? :-\
Think I read somewhere that manufacturers are rationing or manipulating deliveries of ICE cars to boost the EV percentage so that they avoid the fine. ::)
It's unbelievable that such a policy was brought in by the effing Tories! >:( Keir Stalin and the clown Red Ed Millipede maybe.... :-X ::)
The mandate sets out that 22% of manufacturers' new-car sales will need to come from ZEVs this year. This increases to 28% in 2025, and 33% in 2026. By 2027, the targeted percentage will climb to 38%, then 52% in 2028, 66% in 2029 and then 80% in 2030.
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The Stalinist fines that will be levied against the car manufacturers for not selling enough EV's in our Brave New World command economy will really start to bite! ::) :-X
I'm afraid if I were an overseas mainstream car manufacturer, I'd be telling Starmer to go and pork himself. We're not paying your fines and, if you don't want our cars, up yours.
I might be wrong on this, but as I understand it, it's a certain percentage of their sales have to be EV's, and that percentage goes up every year? :-\
Think I read somewhere that manufacturers are rationing or manipulating deliveries of ICE cars to boost the EV percentage so that they avoid the fine. ::)
It's unbelievable that such a policy was brought in by the effing Tories! >:( Keir Stalin and the clown Red Ed Millipede maybe.... :-X ::)
A couple of weeks back I went to a few Audi and BMW dealerships and to be fair not one of them mentioned EV’s when I enquired about the vehicles. I guess they thought that it would be a waste of time talking about EV’s to someone looking at three litre diesel’s. ;D
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The Stalinist fines that will be levied against the car manufacturers for not selling enough EV's in our Brave New World command economy will really start to bite! ::) :-X
I'm afraid if I were an overseas mainstream car manufacturer, I'd be telling Starmer to go and pork himself. We're not paying your fines and, if you don't want our cars, up yours.
I might be wrong on this, but as I understand it, it's a certain percentage of their sales have to be EV's, and that percentage goes up every year? :-\
Think I read somewhere that manufacturers are rationing or manipulating deliveries of ICE cars to boost the EV percentage so that they avoid the fine. ::)
It's unbelievable that such a policy was brought in by the effing Tories! >:( Keir Stalin and the clown Red Ed Millipede maybe.... :-X ::)
The mandate sets out that 22% of manufacturers' new-car sales will need to come from ZEVs this year. This increases to 28% in 2025, and 33% in 2026. By 2027, the targeted percentage will climb to 38%, then 52% in 2028, 66% in 2029 and then 80% in 2030.
All this was dreamt up by the Climate Change Committee. The government is mandated to implement the recommendations of the CCC by the Climate Change Act, which makes the CCC probably the most powerful body in the land. They are unelected, unaccountable, and one of the members a Baroness Brown also sits on the board of Orsted, the Danish wind farm company that has been building some of the huge offshore windfarms in the North Sea. You can draw your own conclusions... :-X
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I think that most of us on here were of the opinion ages ago that fully electric vehicles would never appeal to the majority of motorists, we now have a hybrid Toyota which I researched well into before purchasing it , we've not had it that long but at this moment in time can't fault it at all .
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The Stalinist fines that will be levied against the car manufacturers for not selling enough EV's in our Brave New World command economy will really start to bite! ::) :-X
They will just get added to the new non EV car prices (In fact AML have already stated that it their intention)
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Synthetic fuel for ICE,s is the answer, but it may be too late to turn back from the wrong path now.
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There are not many public chargers in Barnsley, unsurprisingly. The ones I come across are in three groups of two chargers. One group in a public car park and two in supermarkets (Asda and Lidl). I've seen a taxi charging at Lidl once, the other two locations, presuming they are working ok, have never had a car parked in them. Draw your own conclusions.
Could the reason for not being many cars at supermarket chargers, it's the same here at the Sainsbury near me where the chargers rarely have any takers. due to the fact that owners charge at home due to the high cost of using these public ones. :-\
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There are not many public chargers in Barnsley, unsurprisingly. The ones I come across are in three groups of two chargers. One group in a public car park and two in supermarkets (Asda and Lidl). I've seen a taxi charging at Lidl once, the other two locations, presuming they are working ok, have never had a car parked in them. Draw your own conclusions.
Could the reason for not being many cars at supermarket chargers, it's the same here at the Sainsbury near me where the chargers rarely have any takers. due to the fact that owners charge at home due to the high cost of using these public ones. :-\
I thought supermarket chargers were free.
Also, in addition to the prohibitive cost of most chargers you need to add the cost of coffee and a sticky bun while waiting for the PP9 to charge.
Also, you may need to queue up only to find the charger is f*ucked, or the app won't work. ;D
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There are not many public chargers in Barnsley, unsurprisingly. The ones I come across are in three groups of two chargers. One group in a public car park and two in supermarkets (Asda and Lidl). I've seen a taxi charging at Lidl once, the other two locations, presuming they are working ok, have never had a car parked in them. Draw your own conclusions.
Could the reason for not being many cars at supermarket chargers, it's the same here at the Sainsbury near me where the chargers rarely have any takers. due to the fact that owners charge at home due to the high cost of using these public ones. :-\
I thought supermarket chargers were free.
Also, in addition to the prohibitive cost of most chargers you need to add the cost of coffee and a sticky bun while waiting for the PP9 to charge.
Also, you may need to queue up only to find the charger is f*ucked, or the app won't work. ;D
Seems they charge (no pun meant) between 25p and 75p per kWh. A few are free though.
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Germany and Italy are rebelling against the ridiculous ev quotas so maybe traditional fuels will get a reprieve.
New car sales are down and redundancies are around in the car makers.
Now will Britain follow suit or stick with the pain?
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Germany and Italy are rebelling against the ridiculous ev quotas so maybe traditional fuels will get a reprieve.
New car sales are down and redundancies are around in the car makers.
Now will Britain follow suit or stick with the pain?
Given we now have Mad Red Ed Millipede in charge, I expect he will stick with it come hell or high water! ::)
Apparently he's bringing back the Boiler Tax which are the same kind of fines levied against the boiler manufacturers for not selling enough heat pumps. Tosser! :-X
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I don t think anyone has mentioned it yet, but one reason for the lack of interest in electric cars by private buyers is the great concern over the cost of a replacement battery system after about 10 years. The shortage of those battery units is also an issue.
But with a cost of around £10,000 (so I have heard) for a new unit, who is going to be mad enough to buy a car with that possible cost hanging over your head? Second hand petrol cars have their expensive "issues" that you encounter after purchase, but the threat of a huge cost with a used electric car is beyond any level of common sense. In addition, as the majority of ev's are being bought for company use, their potential high mileage will mean that the battery will become life extinct at an early age. So the potential huge cost of a new battery will come sooner than anyone would want! ::) ::) ::)
Thank goodness my Omega can last another good few years, God willing, and I will not want one of these millstones on wheels! ;D ;D ;)
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One of our storage engineers had a hybrid Golf that developed a battery issue that caused problems driving even in non hybrid modes.
So at 5 years old, he was presented with a £17k bill to supply and fit a new battery pack and controller.
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The depreciation alone would pay for an actual car.
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There's a lot more to worry about than depreciation, depending on which EV you buy:
The HUGE differences in electric car efficiency revealed https://mol.im/a/13882577
That's a bit of a long read, but when you get down to the bit about cost per mile, home charging just about beats diesel, public charging is much more expensive than diesel or petrol.
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I could charge one for free at work, but still dont fancy having one.
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There's a lot more to worry about than depreciation, depending on which EV you buy:
The HUGE differences in electric car efficiency revealed https://mol.im/a/13882577
That's a bit of a long read, but when you get down to the bit about cost per mile, home charging just about beats diesel, public charging is much more expensive than diesel or petrol.
Interesting that they chose not to show any data from the 'affordable' Chinesey EVs :-X
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That's a bit of a long read, but when you get down to the bit about cost per mile, home charging just about beats diesel, public charging is much more expensive than diesel or petrol.
Due to various circumstances, we have now taken the iX Fugly wagon to just over 6,000 miles since late June. In that time we have mostly charged at home with a smattering of free charging at my work (competition for the small number of spaces means I often CBA to get there early enough to guarantee a space).
Excluding freebies, the car costs 7p/kwh to charge at home and is doing an average of 2.8 miles /kwh. Which is not amazing but means it costs me 2.5p/mile worst case. A diesel equivalent car (assuming diesel is £1.39/l) would have to do around 253mpg to deliver the equivalent fuel cost.
In terms of overall cost, the car is £560pcm for a fully maintained lease for 20,000 miles per year. Add in the electrons to do those miles (assuming no freebies) and you get a total cost of £602pcm. Compared to my chrysler, doing the same at 35mpg
Fuel £301pcm
Insurance (£560pa) £47pcm
Tax (£415pa) £36pcm
DIY servicing & MOT (£150 pa) £13pcm
Depreciation (£1000 pa assuming £4k car goes to £1k over 80,000 miles & 4yrs) £83pcm
Total: £480pcm
This also doesn't include any repairs, tyres, wiper blades etc etc.
So I am paying at most £122 per month (likely much less in reality) to ride around in something that's quicker, quieter, more comfortable, brand new and never needs me to lie underneath it on a wet afternoon because something has stopped working. In my book that's pretty good value, and if I went for something less upmarket like a tesla, that £600pcm would be more like £400. For me, the BMW actually worked out cheaper as it meant I could persuade SWMBO out of her Evoque so we went from three cars to two :y (Or we will do as soon as I can get shut of the enormous american lawn ornament I currently have the misfortune of owning!).
So I would say they do work financially, but only really as a lease proposition. I would never buy a new one with my own money; but then again I wouldn't buy a new petrol/diesel car either. I would 100% buy something like a 3yr old ev that has been hammered by depreciation as I think they would be very cost effective to run and actually, as a commuter car, are much nicer than a diesel.
Clearly there are horror stories going around with battery packs, many of which I am sure are accurate. But I also think a lot of that is to do with a lack of independents specialising in EVs. So owners' only recourse is main dealers, who don't have mechanics any more, only children with laptops and component changers, and the only component they can change is the entire battery pack. So that's what you get, a new pack.
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One of our storage engineers had a hybrid Golf that developed a battery issue that caused problems driving even in non hybrid modes.
So at 5 years old, he was presented with a £17k bill to supply and fit a new battery pack and controller.
Yep. That confirms my fear. Who privately, apart from the likes of Elon Musk, can afford that?! ::) ::) :P
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Saw this pop up in a Twitter/X thread. Someone has definitely saved their money in petrol/diesel. Be interested to know if the car made it that far on its original internals. :-\
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202406120677042 (http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202406120677042)
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Saw this pop up in a Twitter/X thread. Someone has definitely saved their money in petrol/diesel. Be interested to know if the car made it that far on its original internals. :-\
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202406120677042 (http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202406120677042)
At that mileage I would not touch it. As I have said, the battery pack will always be a worry, and this is especially true of this one. I note that in the description it is stated there is a “BATTERY FAULT” right at the start, so a real concern about this vehicle. :o :o
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Probably one reason why it was disposed of through BCA where the CarShop 365 bought it from...... be interesting to know if the battery fault was actually declared by the seller or whether it was sold with no appraisal report and therefore no redress....
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One of our storage engineers had a hybrid Golf that developed a battery issue that caused problems driving even in non hybrid modes.
So at 5 years old, he was presented with a £17k bill to supply and fit a new battery pack and controller.
Yep. That confirms my fear. Who privately, apart from the likes of Elon Musk, can afford that?! ::) ::) :P
If one example confirms your fear. Then I guarantee you would be afraid to buy any car premium on the road today, you can find singular/rare examples of massive bills with every premium car out there.
The problem with EVs is that when they go wrong people take them back to the manufacturer,.who's stock answer is to change the whole battery pack for a brand new one. Which is very rarely required.
To give you a similar example, look at Porsche 996/997s and their bore scoring issues. Porsche's answer is to sell you a new crate engine for well north of £20k. A good specialist can make a better-than-new repair for a fraction of that. So is it true to say that no one other than Oliver Blume can afford to run a 997? Obviously not. But it is true to say that if you take a complicated used car back to the main dealer for a major repair, you will end up with a massive bill.
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Probably one reason why it was disposed of through BCA where the CarShop 365 bought it from...... be interesting to know if the battery fault was actually declared by the seller or whether it was sold with no appraisal report and therefore no redress....
Every car I've ever bought from auction has given me a little surprise on the way home. :( Some have been easy fixes, some have been expensive disasters. ::)
I think you'd have to be extremely brave to buy an EV at auction. :-X :-\
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One of our storage engineers had a hybrid Golf that developed a battery issue that caused problems driving even in non hybrid modes.
So at 5 years old, he was presented with a £17k bill to supply and fit a new battery pack and controller.
Yep. That confirms my fear. Who privately, apart from the likes of Elon Musk, can afford that?! ::) ::) :P
If one example confirms your fear. Then I guarantee you would be afraid to buy any car premium on the road today, you can find singular/rare examples of massive bills with every premium car out there.
The problem with EVs is that when they go wrong people take them back to the manufacturer,.who's stock answer is to change the whole battery pack for a brand new one. Which is very rarely required.
To give you a similar example, look at Porsche 996/997s and their bore scoring issues. Porsche's answer is to sell you a new crate engine for well north of £20k. A good specialist can make a better-than-new repair for a fraction of that. So is it true to say that no one other than Oliver Blume can afford to run a 997? Obviously not. But it is true to say that if you take a complicated used car back to the main dealer for a major repair, you will end up with a massive bill.
True enough... The Proper car was knocking on the door of £80k new, 18 years later, the bills are still £80k car sized rather than the £6k it cost me. That's not a complaint btw I knew that when I bought it but it's an easy trap to walk into if you're not prepared.
That Jag is well overpriced considering the mileage and issues, but if someone is prepared to swallow the cost of repair*, then it will be a decent car for what it is and for significantly less than a comparable new car.
* Assuming of course that parts are actually available.
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Yes, I suspect it is the price it is because that's basically what the dealer paid at auction (£6500 plus auction extras) and they don't want to swallow a loss. Given its age and mileage (and fault) I'd estimate its value to be parts plus not a lot. Unless they can find a youTuber wanting to do a series on it of course! ::)
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Trouble is, they over paid... The battery is the only thing of real value and it's dead... Which is much the same as worthless.
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This is all keeping me grounded. When browsing through auto trader, looking for a possible astra dog kennel replacement, I often wander into the mercs, bmws and jags. Silly, I know, but I can't help myself.
At my age, the insurance would probably be ridiculous as well.
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I have just been reading up on the regulations for working on electric vehicles and found two interesting entries:
1. Electric vehicles need servicing and maintenance just like petrol and diesel cars. But not every mechanic can work on EVs. In fact, they need specialist qualifications and training from the Institute of the Motor Industry (IMI) - the Professional Body for people working in the automotive sector.24 Jan 2023
and 2.
https://www.hse.gov.uk/mvr/topics/electric-hybrid.htm
Blimey! Our electricians skills are insufficient for working on these potential killers! ::) ;D ;D ;D
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I have just been reading up on the regulations for working on electric vehicles and found two interesting entries:
1. Electric vehicles need servicing and maintenance just like petrol and diesel cars. But not every mechanic can work on EVs. In fact, they need specialist qualifications and training from the Institute of the Motor Industry (IMI) - the Professional Body for people working in the automotive sector.24 Jan 2023
and 2.
https://www.hse.gov.uk/mvr/topics/electric-hybrid.htm
Blimey! Our electricians skills are insufficient for working on these potential killers! ::) ;D ;D ;D
.. alternatively, some common sense. Oh, wait! It's been phased out. So, back to some self-appointed "jobs for the boys" outfit.
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We have to receive MV training at work, I think for the basic course its an online job that takes about 30 mins to do, that allows me to work on cars with HV but, not on the HV system (I did an 11kV live wiring course in 1996 and have been working on HV a lot during my career, it was not a tricky course!).
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Only training I had was stay away from the Orange wires and pull the main fuse before doing any work!!