Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Dave G on 05 March 2025, 11:36:50
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Morning, just got the Omega (2.6 V6 auto) out of the garage this morning - no problems. Left it turned off on the drive for 30 mins or so.
Got back in to go out and the engine's making a terrible clattering noise. Switched off - looked for anything obvious, saw nothing - tried again and the noise is worse. One more try to get it back in the garage and the noise was terrible then the engine completely died.
In the old days I'd have said the noise was like very slack tappets, but louder. No codes showing except for a 1612 from ages ago.
Can anyone shed any light? I obviously can't move it now for fear of causing terminal damage.
Many thanks.
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inpossible to say realy but sounds like a tensioner has failed or a valve . a drained tappet or two wouldnt cause a stall .
this needs a good investigation !
l
the only way to be sure is to remove the aux belt and undo the timing belt cover .( even a bit to look inside !)
if belt seems ok then maybee try gently turning engine on front crank bolt (clockwise only)
try to find something before attempting any further cranking '
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Cambelt :-\ ;(
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Thanks for the advice guys. What you say makes perfect sense.
I’ll try to get the car back into the garage to work on it, but the drive’s uphill. Grrrr.
The engine hadn’t been started for 8 weeks before today. Relevant??
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Cambelt :-\ ;(
I didn't want to say that because I'm not experienced enough, but it certainly sounds like. :(
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Unfortunately, once it's past the 4 year mark it becomes a lottery, especially if the car is lightly used.
Had you said it's a bit tappety, then that might be normal for a car stood as it can take a good 10 minutes to get the oil to all the lifters.
Clattery getting worse followed by cutting out is never going to end well, but as it was idling, any damage should be minimal rather than catastrophic.
Strip the front down and report back :y
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Doesn't sound good - no pun intended. Could be a number of things, but I think I'd try seeing if it starts without aux belt on, in case something on the aux belt is dragging. I wouldn't hold out too much hope TBH. Then remove timing belt cover. If that looks OK, oil starvation?
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Thanks again.
Going to try to get the car back in the garage tomorrow. Then start on the checks you guys have suggested.
Just checked codes again, and a new one from the last abortive start was 0340 - cam belt related, so I’m expecting the worst.
Car’s done 67k, last belt 10k ago, but 7 years.
I’ll post more info when I have it.
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Mileage and condition would suggest that even an in-depth repair will be worthwhile.
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Mileage and condition would suggest that even an in-depth repair will be worthwhile.
That's ok if you are capable yourself. Wouldn't like to have to pay a garage to do it.
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OK, car back in the garage thanks to a helpful neighbour with a block and tackle to pull it in!
Most of the front engine components removed. I can see that the cambelt is still in place and is tight. As suggested I tried to turn the crank by hand - it moved maybe 15-20 degrees then stopped. This wasn’t compression, it got solid. I did not force it.
I can’t seem to remove the cambelt cover. It’s loose but won’t wiggle out. Water pump pulley is off. Do I also need to remove the aux belt tensioner- looks like the cover goes behind it? If so, how is it secured?
Cheers.
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Do I also need to remove the aux belt tensioner- looks like the cover goes behind it? If so, how is it secured?
Cheers.
The aux belt tensioner is secured by two bolts on the tensioner bracket on the side of the cylinder head. You can feel them easier than you can see them.
It could be that your cambelt has jumped a couple of teeth. ;(
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Do I also need to remove the aux belt tensioner- looks like the cover goes behind it? If so, how is it secured?
Cheers.
The aux belt tensioner is secured by two bolts on the tensioner bracket on the side of the cylinder head. You can feel them easier than you can see them.
It could be that your cambelt has jumped a couple of teeth. ;(
This...
A pair of E10s from memory just above the alternator.
Don't try and force the cover... You will break it.
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I think its E14's actually, but never trust my memory!
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The engine now in my Austin had the top roller collapse and belt jumped 2 teeth, ended up replacing all the intake valves and one conrod!
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From memory, 2 teeth is about the absolute limit you can still get away with it (sometimes) on those v6.
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Yep 2 x E14 for tensioner assembly :y
I think a belt tensioner / idler has let go on the Cambelt setup and slipped out of time
Summer is coming, if the belt has slipped and bent valves we could do an OOF top end overhaul on this for nostalgia sake :y
As it was during idle speed, I think the piston crowns will be fine, so damage limited to top end.
When the Cambelt failed on my 3.2 the pistons were fine - have driven it to Gibraltar and back since then! :y
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Thanks for that Countrywoman - cheered me up no end!!
And yes, E14 is more like it.
I dropped a socket in the underpan and when I fished it out with a magnet two steel pins came up too. About 12mm long by 4mm in diameter. If they’d been there for any length of time they’d have dropped out. Could this be related to something?
I’m going to have a hard think about what to do next. My ambition may have exceeded my ability here…
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Sounds like needle roller bearings------------
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Sounds like needle roller bearings------------
Yep.
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I thought they might be locking pins to secure a gear to a shaft somewhere. Like a keyway but through the centre of the shaft. But there were only two.
Do the camshaft pulleys use locking pins like this?
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dont jump to conclusions just yet . lets see what you find once the cover is off !
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I’m going to have a hard think about what to do next. My ambition may have exceeded my ability here…
Don't knock yourself, you've done well to get this far. :y At least get the cover off to see what let go. It'll bug you otherwise. :)
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Did they look like these?
(https://i.ibb.co/ynQzjyvK/IMG-0732.png) (https://ibb.co/fYx3wp6Z)
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My ambition may have exceeded my ability here…
But you're on a forum of people who know these cars inside out, and will be wiling to roll up their sleeves - especially with the warmer weather coming :y
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The pins do look like those Stemo.
As I say, 12mm x 4mm diameter
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It's no use guessing, you're going to have to strip it down as far as the cambelt
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Here's those pins.
Oh Lord I hope this works, otherwise 40+ years of software development have just gone down the toilet...
https://i.postimg.cc/sX2wRN5p/Pins.jpg
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Here's those pins.
Oh Lord I hope this works, otherwise 40+ years of software development have just gone down the toilet...
https://i.postimg.cc/sX2wRN5p/Pins.jpg
Nope ;D
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cant think of anything in there that has a needle roller bearing on it ??
the tensioner and guide bearings are ball bearings , as is the aux tensioner .
are we into the belt area yet and howz it look ?
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That’s odd Stemo, because when I click on the link it displays fine…
Never mind.
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That’s odd Stemo, because when I click on the link it displays fine…
Never mind.
It's loaded for me now. They look too fat to have come from a bearing
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That’s odd Stemo, because when I click on the link it displays fine…
Never mind.
It's loaded for me now. They look too fat to have come from a bearing
They look like dowels to me. :-\
Anyway, we want the cover off so forget about these pins for now. :y
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We'll know a lot more when the cover comes off
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Yep look very much like dowels.
Cant think where theyve come from though. :-\
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OK, so an update. I don't remember Mark having to remove the aux belt tensioner and the compressor pulley, but maybe I'm wrong.
So the cover is away, and some pix here:
Parts removed (scary - for me anyway)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Ls4N0zJp/Parts.jpg)
And the view of the front - left it full size in case anyone needs to zoom in... (if they're too big I'll resize and retry)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gjtMvrzW/Belt.jpg)
I did manage to turn the crank a little before it locked again - suppose it could be compression...
Where should I be looking next?
Apart from in the beer fridge!
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well nothing looks obvoiusly wrong . the tensioner is a little out but within its range . if you cannot get the engine to tdc it will be hard to say 100% . also if those dowels were from the cams(cannot omment on what they look like!) then all the bolts and washers appear intact (unless they have been missing all this time / highly unlikely !)
maybee next step would be to look inside camcovers ?
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Might the dowels be the locking/shipping dowel used on the auxiliary belt tensioner, used to keep the roller at minimum for easier installation of the belt and then removed? That said there is only one dowel, not two. I used to use a drill bit as a dowel substitute, if I removed the belt.
And can you get a more head on picture of the top roller between the heads. I'm wondering if the eccentric is rotated too far clockwise.
And a more head on pic of the adjuster on the tensioner backplate.
The bottom roller looks like it's the type with no eccentric so can't be wrong.
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Have you tried removing the plugs and then cranking it slowly? :-\
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Cam timing needs checking with the correct kit.
Engine needs looking at by someone who knows these engines. I think James V6 volunteered further up the thread.
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Is it worth calculating how many teeth of each cam is to timing marks and check if they match and match with crank mark?
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Cam timing needs checking with the correct kit.
This level of diagnosis can be done with the marks on the cam pulleys and the backing plate, together with the crank pulley mark. While not exact enough to time an engine to run properly, it is close enough to show if anything has slipped badly.
The engine can be quite hard to turn over by hand; I much prefer to do it with a long handled ratchet instead of a normal short one.
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Cam timing needs checking with the correct kit.
This level of diagnosis can be done with the marks on the cam pulleys and the backing plate, together with the crank pulley mark. While not exact enough to time an engine to run properly, it is close enough to show if anything has slipped badly.
The engine can be quite hard to turn over by hand; I much prefer to do it with a long handled ratchet instead of a normal short one.
Pulling the plugs removes the compression aspect, but even then, if it won't turn freely after running recently then it's not a good sign.
Either way don't force it.
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Hi, here are photos that Enceladus asked for - as close to head-on as I can get.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vHq1CSRQ/IMG-2763.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYnbcn1q/IMG-2764.jpg)
I'll be back on the case in the morning - I need to find which of these timing marks to look for.
There are lines on the gears and a couple of notches on the backplate. I'll look up the right ones.
When I've got all the info I can, I'll PM James V6 (If that's OK James)...
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Hi, here are photos that Enceladus asked for - as close to head-on as I can get.
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I'll be back on the case in the morning - I need to find which of these timing marks to look for.
There are lines on the gears and a couple of notches on the backplate. I'll look up the right ones.
When I've got all the info I can, I'll PM James V6 (If that's OK James)...
The tensioner is showing as slack but if the crank has been rotated by hand it doesn’t always return to the same spot so may not be representative of an issue.
As for the timing marks, each cam number should line up with its respective cam. Cam 1 (long notch) and cam 2 (short notch) are straightforward enough but cams 3 and 4 should line up as follows .
Cam 3 shows the left notch as 3 so line cam 3 to the left (long) notch and cam 4 shows the 4 as the right hand (short) notch so cam 4 should be lined up with the right hand (short) notch. You will need a mirror on a stick and a torch to be able to see the crank marking. Hope that makes sense. :y
As mentioned, I think that I’d remove the spark plugs to reduce compression and see how it rotates without forcing it.
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The eccentric on the top idler roller isn't right. The point should be at around 11 o'clock and it seems to be more like 2 o'clock. So it's moved. The bolt must be loose. So the belt has lost tension between the inlet cams.
Take out the plugs if necessary and turn the crank to TDC on cylinder one but be careful and stop if you feel resistance. Take another picture of the tensioner when at TDC. When the crank mark is at TDC then the timing marks on the cam pulleys should line up with the timing marks on the backplate. Ignore any markings on the belt itself. Check both banks with the proper timing gauge.
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The eccentric on the top idler roller isn't right. The point should be at around 11 o'clock and it seems to be more like 2 o'clock. So it's moved. The bolt must be loose. So the belt has lost tension between the inlet cams.
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Surely this depends on the backplate fitted. If it was a like for like backplate with the same marking, and with the 2.6 kit having a fixed lower idler, the tip of the direction arrow being sat at 7 o’clock/8 o’clock is about right. It’s certainly how my 3.2 was set up whenever I changed mine anyway. :y
I do agree that this is a potential issue when fitting the belt in the first place though, as the adjustment nut goes one way and the bolt goes the other way, hence the importance of holding the nut whilst tightening the bolt. :y
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Hi, after very carefully turning the crankshaft to align the camshaft marks, here are the photos.
This is the 1-2 pulleys - they line up perfectly with the backplate dents - any variation in the pic is down to parallax. Nothing is obviously loose - everything is tight
Highlighted the marks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s1dgPsRy/1-2.jpg)
Similarly with the 3-4 pulleys. There's some muck in the centre idler, circled.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PMh2CcR/3-4.jpg)
The only mark I can find on the crankshaft pulley is this - I rubbed some chalk into it. It's obvioiusly not needing a mirror to see it, so is this the right mark?
Anyway, it's to the right of vertical by maybe 10 degrees - relevant?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y24NxRwy/Crank-Pulley.jpg)
(Wasted 2 hours trying to locate a water pump bolt and a socket that I'd dropped.)
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If you remove the crank, is there anything obvious a miss there?
There's a mark at 6 o'clock on the crank. But so far no smoking gun re timing.
Did you remove the plugs? And if so, what state were they in?
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Hi, after very carefully turning the crankshaft to align the camshaft marks, here are the photos.
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The only mark I can find on the crankshaft pulley is this - I rubbed some chalk into it. It's obvioiusly not needing a mirror to see it, so is this the right mark?
Anyway, it's to the right of vertical by maybe 10 degrees - relevant?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y24NxRwy/Crank-Pulley.jpg)
That’s not the timing mark, it’s behind that big crank aux pulley as shown in this video clip at 3.45 minutes. :y The big pulley needs to come off but for ficks sake DON’T try to undo the big bolt in the middle. :y Undo the six bolts holding it on and it will tap off, the timing mark UNDERNEATH the crankcase cog should align with the crankcase notch, hence the need for a mirror and a torch. :y
https://youtu.be/YCF1feeUyc0?si=WWLjd7psqXmA1J54
The cam notches and top idler look ok, the lower idler is fixed. :y Does the crank turn a full revolution, obviously with the plugs out, with no resistance. :-\ If it does, we could be chasing a red herring here and the fault could be elsewhere. :-\
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......
Parts removed (scary - for me anyway)
Fair play for having a go at investigating, you're doing a cracking job so far. :y
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Thanks for that YZ250...
Now here's a pic of the bottom sprocket - nothing turned since the cam sprocket pix earlier. I assume the line at about 4:30 should be vertical to align with the notch on the back plate?
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvnGW8WD/bottom-sprocket.jpg)
And here's another - spooky one...
(https://i.postimg.cc/3w9yxvJr/detritus.jpg)
These bits were in the space under the cam belt sprocket...
Two MORE 12mm pins (now I've got 4), a stiff-looking piece of something, and some torn rubber bits. So those pins from further up the topic must be relevant...
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Shit, the timings slipped. Not sure what the other bits are (looks like part of the cam cover) :-\ but what would be really annoying for you is if those bits fell into the path of the belt and got between the belt and bottom pulley. That’s shit luck that is. ;(
Now the question is, what damage has it done. We’d have to guess that the clattering was the bits flying about in there until the belt slipped and stopped the engine. If the crank will go to TDC without force, you’ll be able to see roughly how many teeth it has jumped by the cam positions.
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That’s exactly what I was thinking when I saw the next two pins.
They would seriously derail the belt…
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So am I right saying that line should be vertical??
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So am I right saying that line should be vertical??
Sadly yes, it should be.
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Where are the pins from then ?
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Where are the pins from then ?
I’ve tried zooming in to the steel backplate as the only thing I can think of is the fixing lugs.
Edit: They still look like dowels to me. :-\
This is a kicker as it appears that nothing has let go, but more like the loose parts have derailed the belt.
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Here you go.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdhszrPC/PinsX4.jpg)
No threading, slightly bevelled ends - very shiny.
Centre sections quite dull as if they were load bearing?
Whatever they've come out of there must be more - nothing with a roller bearing has just four rollers...??
Does anyone know if either the belt tensioner or idler uses this kind of thing?
Or maybe someone has a scrap one to take apart to check??
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Searching for engine breakdown drawings now. :-\
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I believe the crankshaft front bearing is a roller bearing but don’t quote me on that. :-\
If it's proven that it isn't a roller bearing at all, I will quote you, every time you think you're right when I am obviously right. And I've quoted you so you can't delete it.
If it is a roller bearing, lucky guess ;D
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I believe the crankshaft front bearing is a roller bearing but don’t quote me on that. :-\
If it's proven that it isn't a roller bearing at all, I will quote you, every time you think you're right when I am obviously right. And I've quoted you so you can't delete it.
If it is a roller bearing, lucky guess ;D
;D
I searched for Vauxhall Omega 2.6 V6 crankshaft bearings and it flagged up the front bearing as roller. ;D I’ve never had the need to delve into the crank of my 3.2 but logic tells me I’m wrong, as for the bearings to escape into the cover they’d have to get past the front oil seal, which would be messy.
I tried to delete it but as usual you beat me to the quote. ;D :y
If an idler was missing 4 of those, I’m guessing it would wobble a bit. ;D
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I seem to have started something I can’t control..!
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Looks very much like a rear spigot bearing but of course it couldn’t have travelled to the front🤣 I think they do have them on the front and apparently there was an upgrade available 🤷♂️
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I seem to have started something I can’t control..!
At least we know where you’re at now cam belt wise, apart from how many teeth it’s jumped. Hopefully someone can help/guide you on what action to take.
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I seem to have started something I can’t control..!
He's always causin trouble that YZ fella, Dave. He used to drive too fast an all, but I believe he's a model citizen now :-X
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(https://i.postimg.cc/yNjpGDhr/20250310-185426.jpg)
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Ball?
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I seem to have started something I can’t control..!
He's always causin trouble that YZ fella, Dave. He used to drive too fast an all, but I believe he's a model citizen now :-X
I thought you slept in the afternoons. ::) ;D
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I seem to have started something I can’t control..!
He's always causin trouble that YZ fella, Dave. He used to drive too fast an all, but I believe he's a model citizen now :-X
I thought you slept in the afternoons. ::) ;D
Not today. Bit of excitement this aft, I had to stay awake for the Amazon man to knock ;D
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Oops......this thread seems to be drifting a wee bit. Sorry, Dave ;D
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No worries lads.
It’s sometimes good to not take life too seriously!
Can I just throw one out there…?
So there’s a good possibility that the Y26SE is terminally ill.
How about if I lock anything belt-related as best I can, then release the tensioner and idler and ‘see what falls out’..??
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I seem to have started something I can’t control..!
He's always causin trouble that YZ fella, Dave. He used to drive too fast an all, but I believe he's a model citizen now :-X
I thought you slept in the afternoons. ::) ;D
Not today. Bit of excitement this aft, I had to stay awake for the Amazon man to knock ;D
;D ;D
Regarding the crankshaft bits, we’ll have to hope that either Mark or James can throw some light on it, or anyone else who can identify the parts. It’s a long time since I did complete engine rebuilds and only one of my Omegas required head gasket work so my knowledge is fairly limited.
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I seem to have started something I can’t control..!
He's always causin trouble that YZ fella, Dave. He used to drive too fast an all, but I believe he's a model citizen now :-X
I thought you slept in the afternoons. ::) ;D
Not today. Bit of excitement this aft, I had to stay awake for the Amazon man to knock ;D
;D ;D
Regarding the crankshaft bits, we’ll have to hope that either Mark or James can throw some light on it, or anyone else who can identify the parts. It’s a long time since I did complete engine rebuilds and only one of my Omegas required head gasket work so my knowledge is fairly limited.
That's it, lad. Hedge it. :)
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No worries lads.
It’s sometimes good to not take life too seriously!
Can I just throw one out there…?
So there’s a good possibility that the Y26SE is terminally ill.
How about if I lock anything belt-related as best I can, then release the tensioner and idler and ‘see what falls out’..??
To be honest, your cams are set ok but your crank is out so it doesn’t really matter when you remove the belt. Might be worth waiting a bit to see if anyone more knowledgeable of this engine has any suggestions in the meantime. :y
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The rubbery bits could well be excess from previous cam cover gasket work.
The pins look like locating dowels, but wouldn't like to say where from ???
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The rubbery bits could well be excess from previous cam cover gasket work.
The pins look like locating dowels, but wouldn't like to say where from ???
Hmm, 4 dowels and 4 camshafts. Surely not, the odds on them all falling out together would be astronomical. :-\
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Have never removed the cam sprocket from an Omega engine... But that's one hell of a coincidence...
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Have never removed the cam sprocket from an Omega engine... But that's one hell of a coincidence...
Likewise. :y
Something like this, but these are allegedly performance cams so may differ. :-\ They are apparently for a Vauxhall Omega/Vectra V6 etc according to the description. Main focus is on the dowels sticking out of the end.
(https://i.ibb.co/B2p6F2M2/IMG-2131.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SwjmGwCw)
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Or not ;D
Sorry :-[
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Have never removed the cam sprocket from an Omega engine... But that's one hell of a coincidence...
Likewise. :y
Something like this, but these are allegedly performance cams so may differ. :-\ They are apparently for a Vauxhall Omega/Vectra V6 etc according to the description. Main focus is on the dowels sticking out of the end.
(https://i.ibb.co/B2p6F2M2/IMG-2131.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SwjmGwCw)
That's not a bad shout, but both ends of the wayward pins look to be 'shiny', as if only the central piece was metal on metal. On those cams only one end seems to protrude.
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Doesn’t the original camshafts use a woodruff key fitting?
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Following this with interest, even if I'm no help in knowing where those dowels / rollers have come from. The following pics show the cam sprockets and camshafts, so I doubt that the dowels would come adrift when the sprockets are fitted and all 4 timing marks aligned.
(https://www.emgauge70s.co.uk/camsprockets.jpg)
(https://www.emgauge70s.co.uk/camsprockets2.jpg)
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So, with the crankshaft line mark pointing vertically down (6 o’clock) I would say the belt has moved three teeth to the right away from the backplate notch - on both sides.
The pins do look very similar to that last post. But I can’t see all of them dropping out without huge damage.
In other news, I’m going to have to suspend my investigations for a few days. Brother in law taken ill yesterday. Very poorly in hospital. So it’s the train down to Epsom. Lovely.
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So has some moron fitted a new belt and took the pins out as they had trouble lining the timing marks up? Just a thought
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Whoa there. Steady on with the moron bit…!
A few points here to clear up some previous questions from along the topic:
- I’ve had the car from new so I know its history. It was my company car and then I bought it at the end of the term.
- Camshaft covers have never been removed.
- All my previous belt changes have been done by Marks DTM Calib (most definitely NOT a moron). I watched him do a perfect job - and some other maintenance too.
- As for me, I’ve replaced alternator, HBV, door lock motors, thermostat, brake discs, calipers (cleaned/painted), brake pads, rear shocks, water pump and of course regular oil and all filter changes (regardless of miles). But I did give up at wishbones.
All of these jobs on a Vauxhall Omega 2.6 V6.
So I’m not completely stupid - just moderately stupid - for tackling this at my age!!!
See, I CAN be grumpy at times…
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…………..
All my previous belt changes have been done by Marks DTM Calib (most definitely NOT a moron). I watched him do a perfect job - and some other maintenance too.
……….
Certainly nobody on here would doubt Marks work so no worries there. :y As the cambelt is around three teeth out, and the fact that the engine died whilst idling, the heads will have to come off to rectify any valve damage. As for costs to get it back on the road, JamesV6CDX would probably have a good idea of roughly how much as he’s done a few now. I’m not implying that he’d be interested in doing it, just that he’d have a better perspective of costs having done it himself on his own vehicle.
With that mileage , and if it’s in reasonable condition, it’s certainly worth repairing if costs can be kept to DIY and a bit of outside help/guidance. :y
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Following this with interest, even if I'm no help in knowing where those dowels / rollers have come from. The following pics show the cam sprockets and camshafts, so I doubt that the dowels would come adrift when the sprockets are fitted and all 4 timing marks aligned.
……….
Good find with the photo. :y When the heads come off things should become clearer. :y
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No idea, just putting it out there, waterpump bearings on roller bearings?
But as others have suggested, 3 teeth is going to need, as DTM himself would say "Off with its head!"
If no piston damage, I'd imagine that would be new valves and stem seals (which you'd always do on a 2.6 anyway, due to GM fitting poor ones), gaskets (various, such as exhaust manifold, HG and cam gaskets) and bolts, and of course a new timing belt.
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So today I locked the cams with a locking kit and released the belt tension.
I took off the tensioner and the top idler/adjuster (not sure what it’s called) and could find no fault with either.
Put the belt back on with the crankshaft back in the 6 o’clock position. Timing obviously by eye but couldn’t be any worse than it was.
Not looked at the water pump yet - I can’t see how anything could escape from that. It’s solid and spins freely with no wobble.
To get the plugs out for a manual turnover is going to mean a lot more disassembly, plenum, piping etc. but if it has to be done…
Once again, I’m very grateful for all your suggestions on here.
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Waterpump sounds fine - if it had lost rollers out of bearings, it'd be like a cock in a sock.
The extra strip down isn't wasted effort, as I think we all know the heads have to come off anyway.
With the timing not more or less in the right place, can you spin the crank through 360 degrees now - you'll get compression, but not a hard lock (hopefully)
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Just been back out to check that.
Turned the crankshaft through 2 revolutions. There was lurching as compression came and went, but no clicking, clanking or knocks that I could hear or feel.
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.......
To get the plugs out for a manual turnover is going to mean a lot more disassembly, plenum, piping etc. but if it has to be done…
.......
If you want to remove the spark plugs, and bearing
in mind I'm working from memory here, but to remove the coil packs covering the spark plugs, remove the 2 bolts holding it on, find 2 more suitable bolts that fit the top thread in the coil pack and pull it up. When it has a bit of freedom, undo the multi-plug connection under the scuttle area. The 1,3,5 bank is easy but the 2,4,6 bank is slightly more awkward as some pillock designed it so that the cable tray is in the way. Once the cable tray is removed, hold the cables clear with a bungee, but make sure the cables aren't stressed. Remove anything else in the way that I've overlooked. :y If you get that far, I expect you to report back that plug 6 is an arse to access. ;D
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as a basic check seeing as it seems to turn fine by hand would it be worth pulling the fuel relay and unplugging the coils and going for a starter motor spin over ? this would show (by sound) if there was a good equal basic compression rather than a fast spot . cant see how there would be no damage but if it turns fine by hand then trying shouldnt cause any extra damage !
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as a basic check seeing as it seems to turn fine by hand would it be worth pulling the fuel relay and unplugging the coils and going for a starter motor spin over ? this would show (by sound) if there was a good equal basic compression rather than a fast spot . cant see how there would be no damage but if it turns fine by hand then trying shouldnt cause any extra damage !
A compression test would be worthwhile as well. :y
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Indeed although a leak down test would be more revealing
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Indeed although a leak down test would be more revealing
Most definitely. :y
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Indeed although a leak down test would be more revealing
Yes, leak down testing allows for accurate, detailed diagnosis, whereas compression testing is for more basic, quicker, what approach should we be taking? thinking
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How does the PAS pump turn, by hand? It's an incredibly long shot, and I think they will be too big, but I am wondering if it's the internal vanes from the PAS pump. Not that I can see how they could / would escape.
I also wonder if they have come from the water pump. I'll see if I've got one I can take apart and have a look inside.
I can confirm that they are definitely not from: Camshafts, Aux belt tensioner/idler, or any of the cambelt tensioner wheels.
I suspect that one of these has got in between the belt and bottom sprocket and caused it to jump teeth.
The bad news: It's heads have to come off, for a repair (It will have bent valves)
The good news: unlikely to be piston / rod damage, knowing for sure the failure was at idle speed. As I said, I drove mine to Spain after a cambelt failure, and never touched bottom end.
As said already.... summer is coming, and I am now semi retired :y
Here is the link from my repair back last summer, before the Spain road trip :y https://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=151019.0
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Also, I don't think they are any engine internals. They would be unlikely to exit / penetrate the block or sump at idle speed!
But, it is by far preferable to find the source of them, because if something is duff, and there are more of these pins left in it, another one could drop down and cause the same thing :y
I think it's unlikely in your case, but I did once visit a chap who had a cambelt 3 teeth out, about the same as yours. He asked me to take a shit or bust punt, time it back up properly and turn the key.
I spent an hour muttering about how it was a waste of time, wouldn't work and we should just strip it down - and, it ran bloody lovely. ;D Can't say it didn't harm valves/seating, but not enough to cause a misfire, and compression was "in the green" (about 170 PSI). He drove it for years afterwards.
What you want to do is get that timing mark in the 4pm position and leave it there. The one on the crank, the small toothed pulley - not the bigger one. (This is the position where all of the pistons are safe from the valves, partially down the cylinders)
And then, using a TX50 socket, gently rotate each cam clockwise, and report back as to whether any of them encounter any resistance.
If they don't, I would then set all of the cams into the locked positions (marks 1,2,3,4 lined up with the backplate), set the crank to TDC, and then see if it'll time up properly and spin over freely by hand.
If it does, I'd take a chance and compression test it.
If it doesn't, or you meet resistance by hand, then it's got to come apart.
I'm pretty sure it's coming apart anyway, but.... that's the approach to take.
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Happy to come up and spend a day in the not too distant future to work with you and check it all out.
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Hello, thanks all for the posts last night...
Didn't want to post back until I'd done some more work.
Disassembly progressing - steadily.
Cams 1-2 were a tiny bit out so corrected that. I thought about trying to turn on the starter, but until I know what those pins are I don't want any more of them flying around.
Plenum now off, fuel lines disconnected, pump fuse removed (in case).
Followed James' instructions re: 4 o'clock positioning. No resistance felt, but still have three plugs to remove before trying plugless.
First bank, plug wells nice and clean. Cam cover this side not off yet, the circled bolts I could undo with my fingers, which I thought was odd.
Not checked the PAS pump yet - I'll do that before I undo more bits.
It's starting to get a bit scary now, with all the pieces I've taken off.
Thanks James for your offer of help - It's looking more and more likely that I'll need it !!
Here's the pix...
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJXHJQyq/wells.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NgFrRdT/covers.jpg)
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Hold tight a bit Dave. I thought that you were just going to remove the belt, turn the crank to 4 o’clock and then turn each individual cam to see how they turned.
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Ah yes, you’re right. Crank is at 4 at the moment so that test won’t take long.
I’ll do that before removing anything else.
(When the hailstones give me a break.)
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Turning the cams needs a bit of effort - then they seem to lurch forwards in the direction I’m turning them (clockwise). No clanking or metallic noises.
First, both PAS pump and A/C compressor turn freely with no wobbles or noise.
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The lurching and slight resistance is normal - in fact is good - its valve spring pressure.
Ok so …
With the crank sprocket mark still at 4pm:
Thoroughly check Cambelt kit (belt for missing teeth or damage, and ensure the tensioners and idlers turn ok and don’t feel rough)
If all good -
Align and lock cams in their positions (numbers 1,2,3,4 on the cogs aligning with the backplates)
Installl and set up the Cambelt kit
Ensure engine turns over through several revolutions okay by hand
If it does, I’d be tempted to fire it up.
NB to achieve correct tension this must be done with the spark plugs fitted
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I’m still at an absolute loss as to what those pins are though.
All I can suggest is ensuring that all of ancillaries above the crank pulley are ok.
If you’re not confident setting up the belt I’m sure I can make time in the very near future to pop up for a half day or whatever is needed :y
In reality though you’re making great progress and if you have time on your side there’s zero barrier to you even achieving a head-off job with us all to support and advise as you go :y
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If your cams turn through 360 deg with the engine at 4pm then you may have dodged a bullet. Mine got completely stuck with metallic resistance (although it didn’t sleep 3 teeth, it shed its belt)
I wouldn’t like to guess how well your valves will seat after slipping 3 teeth - but your post does suggest they are all going up and down.
Which makes me think it’s definitely worth timing up and compression testing it.
As I said before I worked on one which slipped exactly 3 teeth in that same direction - and it came back from the dead once set up correctly
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Huge thanks again James.
I’ll follow your instructions - to the letter this time! I got a bit ahead of myself yesterday I think.
Those pins - I was showing them to my son yesterday and he just said ‘where are those magnets from?’ Yes they are all stuck to each other. It didn’t strike me before but they are little magnets.
Is there a Hall effect or induction type sensor in the vicinity?
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Interesting - I’ll have a think on the pins
Only Hall effect sensors are cam and crank and they don’t resemble anything like those
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Alternator ? :-\
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Here you go.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdhszrPC/PinsX4.jpg)
No threading, slightly bevelled ends - very shiny.
Centre sections quite dull as if they were load bearing?
Whatever they've come out of there must be more - nothing with a roller bearing has just four rollers...??
Does anyone know if either the belt tensioner or idler uses this kind of thing?
Or maybe someone has a scrap one to take apart to check??
I have been staring at this for ages trying to work it out.
To get into the bottom sprocket area they would HAVE to have been from something behind the plastic Cambelt cover - and from above
Literally the only thing there is the water pump.
If anything fell off the PAS / alternator etc then it would have no way of getting into the Cambelt cover without penetrating it.
I’m going to see if I’ve got an old water pump laying around and take it apart, watch this space
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How are rollers that big going to fit inside the water pump? ???
When you get a pump apart, you'll find the impeller runs in bushes, not bearings.
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My earlier suggestion of the locking/shipping pin for the aux belt tensioner is clearly wrong as there are now four pins.
I now suspect that the pins are camshaft sprocket locking pins. GM# 90501111. Four per V6 engine. The later sprocket design is a one size fits all. One mark for inlet timing and one mark for exhaust timing. And two positions for the locking pin.
If so, at some point at least the sprockets and maybe the cam shafts have been removed and replaced/reinstated. Perhaps the pins were dropped or otherwise not reinstated or left somewhere by magnetism and fell down.
Anyway I'd want to be certain that the sprockets, as fitted now, each have the pin in-situ. I suspect they must be in place since the cams haven't been disturbed for years. Or have they been disturbed recently?
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Hi. Well I’ve had the car from new - Oct 2002 - and camshafts have never been removed or disturbed.
I did mention earlier that 4 of the 1-2 bank cam cover bolts were only finger tight, but that may be irrelevant.
I don’t suppose access to the pin's location is a) easy or b) possible?
Once the sprocket is fitted, do the pins still have a purpose on this engine? Or are they just for installation alignment?
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Maybe me being a bit thick, but if two components are locked by a pin going into each component, then wouldn’t those components have to come a long way apart before the pin could drop out?
Unless it’s been pushed in through an open hole I suppose…
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… and all 4 at once?
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Or taken apart.
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Russian sabotage?🕵🏿♂️
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Hi. Well I’ve had the car from new - Oct 2002 - and camshafts have never been removed or disturbed.
I did mention earlier that 4 of the 1-2 bank cam cover bolts were only finger tight, but that may be irrelevant.
I don’t suppose access to the pin's location is a) easy or b) possible?
Once the sprocket is fitted, do the pins still have a purpose on this engine? Or are they just for installation alignment?
The pins are a permanent feature. They lock the sprocket orientation on the camshaft. At least until the bolt is fully tightened.
I agree, I can't see how they can fall out unless the sprocket bolts are removed and the sprockets are loose enough. That would probably wreck the valves if the engine was running. So they must have been removed and lost/mislaid when the sprockets were removed in the past for maintenance, which you are certain hasn't happened. If the pins were mislaid it doesn't mean they are not now present. Perhaps new pins were installed when the originals were mislaid. I doubt if it happened at the factory.
It is not usually necessary to remove the sprockets unless you want to work on the camshafts or valves. EG routine changing of the timing belt doesn't require sprocket removal.
As to the cam cover bolts, the torque is 8Nm. That's finger tight and a bit.
The pins you found look like the cam sprocket pins but they may well be from something else.
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One can only be certain about things they have seen or experienced first hand.
Dave may not have removed the sprockets, nor Mark, but that doesn't categorically mean that they haven't been.
Under the circumstances there's a reasonable argument for checking them.
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But the witness marks don’t fit with the cam pin idea🤷♂️
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One can only be certain about things they have seen or experienced first hand.
Dave may not have removed the sprockets, nor Mark, but that doesn't categorically mean that they haven't been.
Under the circumstances there's a reasonable argument for checking them.
I’d have to check a cam sprocket to satisfy my curiosity but having studied exploded view drawings of this engine, the cam pin (the sizes match) can only fall out, from what I can tell, if the bolt is removed. The slot that the pin sits in does indeed go all the way through the sprocket but there’s a ruddy great washer at the front stopping it from escaping. :-\
I’m guessing that the rubber/plastic fragments with the pins are part of GM#90571618 Gasket, timing belt cover NLS. :-\ I’d forgotten that the timing belt cover had a gasket on it. The pins are the mystery though.
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From memory the camshaft locating “pins” are an integral feature of the camshaft (eg, part of the “mould” for want of a better word, and not an insertable pin.
And I think it’s inconceivable that all four would come out.
And actually - they can’t - because behind the bolts holding the pulleys onto the camshafts, there’s a huge washer which would prevent them coming out
I like the thinking but I think it’s barking up the wrong tree sadly :(
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From memory the camshaft locating “pins” are an integral feature of the camshaft (eg, part of the “mould” for want of a better word, and not an insertable pin.
And I think it’s inconceivable that all four would come out.
And actually - they can’t - because behind the bolts holding the pulleys onto the camshafts, there’s a huge washer which would prevent them coming out
I like the thinking but I think it’s barking up the wrong tree sadly :(
The exploded view of the engine show the pins as the part number that Enceladus posted earlier. :y I fully agree James, as I posted above, if there was the remote chance of one falling out (all 4 at once nigh on impossible), the pin would be trapped between the solid camshaft on one side and the big washer on the other side. :y
The plot thickens as the part number GM# 90501111 that Enceladus posted are 12. something long and 4.6 diameter.. Spooky.
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I would undo one sprocket bolt just to make sure the pin was there.
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We do need to identify what they are, it’s pointless getting it running again if there are more dodgy pins likely to fall onto the Cambelt :(
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Morning. I can’t see any missing plastic or gasket on the belt cover. It doesn’t quite go all the way around. The last 6cm or so is absent on the 3-4 cam side, but then it has no slot to go into.
Am I safe taking off a sprocket? In terms of getting it back on accurately I mean.
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Morning. I can’t see any missing plastic or gasket on the belt cover. It doesn’t quite go all the way around. The last 6cm or so is absent on the 3-4 cam side, but then it has no slot to go into.
Am I safe taking off a sprocket? In terms of getting it back on accurately I mean.
Safe to remove with the crank at 4pm
You’ll need to remove the cam cover to hold the cam still (24mm from memory, spanner on cam)
1-3-5 bank is easier
I still don’t think it’s from The camshaft though
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No it’s not James. Locked the sprocket and took it off. The pin is about 6.2mm diameter, awkward to get the micrometer in, mine are 4.2mm.
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I think there's too much thought going into where the pins came from, and I've a feeling we'll never know. One of them has obviously got between belt and roller/tensioner and caused the belt to slip.
I would get it timed up and, hopefully, running, then the mystery of the pins can be debated till kingdom come.
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I tend to agree. That was my plan this morning but there was so much uncertainty about the cam sprocket pin that I thought a look wouldn’t hurt. And now it’s ruled out.
I’ll put back some of my over-enthusiastic dismantling and get the belt back on as accurately as possible.
Cheers.
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Quick update. Belt back on as accurately as I can.
Turned over several times by hand and nothing nasty. All marks came back to the same positions.
Just tried a few seconds on the starter and that was OK too.
Need a new water pump now. Last one was a QH QCP3255.
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Quick update. Belt back on as accurately as I can.
Turned over several times by hand and nothing nasty. All marks came back to the same positions.
Just tried a few seconds on the starter and that was OK too.
Need a new water pump now. Last one was a QH QCP3255.
Ooooo.....it's getting exciting now ;D
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I think it’ll fire up and run. Possibly on all 6 :y
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BINGO...!!
I know you're all probably sick and tired of me and my pins, and rightly so, but look here...
I took the water pump off to replace it and noticed the front seal was all the way out of its housing and right up to the nose of the pump.
So I cut off the shaft and guess what I prised out? A load more pins, and plastic from the roller cage that matches the other pieces :Din my collection!
I'm chuffed to bits.
So many thanks to everyone who helped me. Just a massive reassembly and test now. Then a brand new belt etc... (assuming no permanent damage has been done)
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0Jn2NSg/Culprits.jpg)
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That could have a lot worse, Dave. You might just get away with it :y
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/Smug mode: *Cough* Reply #88
Excellent find, and I bet you're chuffed to bits you've managed to find the fault, and strip it down that far. Brilliant news.
Obviously, we know the belt jumped some teeth, so we're not completely out of the woods, but I'd get a new pump on, reassemble (cambelt locking kit needed if you don't want to revisit, or slap on as best you can to test, with a view to correctly time it shortly after) and see if you should be buying a lotto ticket or not!
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Yep. I leant on the pump end flange and I was sure it moved slightly.
Not exactly “cock in a sock” but a little movement.
So this pump had balls at the engine end and rollers at the flange end. Or it did have.
I am chuffed to bits, different bits this time…
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BINGO...!!
I know you're all probably sick and tired of me and my pins, and rightly so,
........
Not at all, it needed resolving and you've resolved it. :y Fingers crossed for you getting away with it, and you must feel good for having done it yourself. :y Thanks for the update.
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How old is the water pump ?
If newish I would be asking for a lot of money from the supplier.
Great that youve found the cause of the issue though. :y
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Oh no. Looking at my records it’s 10 years - (a lot of covidness). But only 16k miles.
I feel like a right tw@ now.. all my own fault.
Just popping down the garden to find a stone to crawl under and there to die…!
I’ll continue to clean pices and prepare them for reinstatement.
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Oh no. Looking at my records it’s 10 years - (a lot of covidness). But only 16k miles.
I feel like a right tw@ now.. all my own fault.
I don’t see how you could have predicted that. It’s usually the impeller that fails, or grumbly bearings, not the pump spitting its bits out. :)
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Well done!
You've mentioned installing a new belt. What about the idler rollers and the tensioner? Are they being renewed or just the belt?
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Very rare occurrence, but, everyone here now is that much wiser, well done and keep us updated… as you undoubtedly will👍
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/Smug mode: *Cough* Reply #88
Excellent find, and I bet you're chuffed to bits you've managed to find the fault, and strip it down that far. Brilliant news.
Obviously, we know the belt jumped some teeth, so we're not completely out of the woods, but I'd get a new pump on, reassemble (cambelt locking kit needed if you don't want to revisit, or slap on as best you can to test, with a view to correctly time it shortly after) and see if you should be buying a lotto ticket or not!
I also said it had to be something behind the Cambelt cover to end up in the sprocket and the pump was the only logical option :y :y
Let’s hope it runs and that Dave gets a good outcome :y :y
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Morning.
I’m cleaning everything I took off before replacing. Then at least if it won’t run it’ll look nice.
Assuming a good start, my plan is to get the complete CT990K2 kit. New belt, backplate, tensioner, idlers and bolts.
Holiday next week, for which I’ve had to hire a car. >:(
I’ll update when there’s something interesting to report.
Thanks again everyone.
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Well done Dave! :y What an awesome thread! 8) The spirit of OOf lives on! :)
Now we're all waiting with baited breath for you to get back from your holidays! ;D
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Thanks for your kind words Sir T!
Just a bit more before setting off. A little bling never hurt anyone...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hk1CzFR1/bling.jpg)
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Absolutely brilliant thread. Reminds me of the help I got from the forum about 15 years ago doing my cam belt change in the wilds of rural Spain.
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Dont forget i have a good engine in my car if you soulld need it. Ron
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Hi, back from hols so a quick update.
Everything back together, checked all connectors, pipes, hoses and so on, refilled coolant, then tried a test turnover with no fuel. No nasty loud metallic noises but obviously no start.
Replaced fuel pump fuse and after waiting for everything to get primed, tried a start.
Fired first time and ran but really lumpy.
Turned off, checked everything again, reseated connections etc., and tried again. This time no firing just churning over. Sounds like it wants to fire every now and then but no joy. Exhaust smelled of fuel so must be getting fuel.
I’ve had error codes 1110, 1111 and 1120, but that’s most likely due to testing engine turnover with no bagpipes, plenum, or throttle bodies etc.
Just before posting this I tried one more time and persisted on the starter. Eventually fired up again, very lumpy and ticky-ticky but kept turning and accepted a gentle increase in revs to about 1500.
I’m hoping I’ve missed something along the way, but…
I have a sound recording of the engine but no idea how to post it!!
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are you 100 % sure everything is plugged in correctly and where it should be
and
what did the relative compression sound like when you first spun it on the starter .was it completely even or did it sound to have any low compression cylinders .( a quickening of starter speed )
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I will check everything again in the morning about the connections. Battery is on permanent charge.
Well, no it did sound a bit uneven on the starter when I first tried it
Again, I’ll check first thing and (if I may) PM you the sound…
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that may be showing the issue then . its called a relative compression test and whilst programs exist and tuning machines to show it resonably accurate (some code readers will show it as a starter current draw )
a starter spin should sound nice and even with a slowing of the starter by a certain amount as each cylinder has compression . so a cylinder with lower compression (for any reason) will sound faster . i think you know what i mean .
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Yeah I know what you mean.
Checked everything again - when I start up there's quite a low thumpy noise and a ticky-ticky noise. I still reckon there's contact happening somewhere - maybe if valves were bent, they wouldn't seat properly and make a click noise. And let gases past - sure I could smell exhaust under the bonnet...
As I see (hear) it, there's at least valve damage, possibly more. My choices seem to be a) have the engine rebuilt/replaced, b) bite the bullet and sell the car as is, which could well be scrap value. There's no way I could take on cylinder head work and so on - arthritis in my hands will see to that!
I'm very grateful for offers of help - James, Alan and of course TheBoy, but surely this is more substantial than 'a bit of weekend work' ?
I have to decide what to do now - been without transport for a month and it's starting to become a problem. I need to cost out my options this weekend. Perhaps at 23 years old and 67k miles done I should call it a day! Apart from this issue and a small NSF wing dent there's nothing else wrong with it.
Incidentally, does anyone know what a rebuild would cost?
Thanks for reading another of my rants...
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I would say before writing off the valves, get a cheap compression tester (one suitable for deep 16v heads) and see what that says. I'd send you mine, but it's not been seen since "the garage incident" ;D
Dead easy to use - remove plugs, screw tester into plug socket, remove fuel pump relay or eco fuse to prevent it fuelling, then spin the starter.
That will prove if you have an issue with compression, and aid with next steps.
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Would you be able to recommend one? So I don’t buy a lemon…
Machine Mart sell a CLARKE CHT693 which looks quite comprehensive.
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as mentioned above yes that would be the best step then you can af least find which head (if only one) has issues and someone will have a useable head to swap as a whole . pistons may well be fine ?
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.....
, but it's not been seen since "the garage incident" ;D
.....
I didn't think we were allowed to mention that! ::) ;D ;D
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I think there’s something going on here that I don’t understand!!
(Perhaps it’s best if I don’t?)
Anyway, the Clarke CHT693…
Any good for what I need…??
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Would you be able to recommend one? So I don’t buy a lemon…
Machine Mart sell a CLARKE CHT693 which looks quite comprehensive.
Not sure, the plug sits quite deep in the head on the Omega (and most 4 valves per cylinder engines), so not sure how you can get it tight enough to seal for the test.
Hoping somebody can recommend one that works on an Omega.
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Would you be able to recommend one? So I don’t buy a lemon…
Machine Mart sell a CLARKE CHT693 which looks quite comprehensive.
Not sure, the plug sits quite deep in the head on the Omega (and most 4 valves per cylinder engines), so not sure how you can get it tight enough to seal for the test.
Hoping somebody can recommend one that works on an Omega.
If the plug well is clean, very often hand tight will do, as it will be the same method for each cylinder. Most of the testers appear to be very similar, although the Sealey kit does have a hex on all adapters, whereas the Clarke/Amtech type have a knurled adapter. Not particularly relevant unless the adapter gets stuck in the spark plug thread and the flexi unscrews from it. ::) ;D
I believe Albs has a compression tester so maybe he can confirm fitment. :y
So, as said, all spark plugs out, fuel relay out and WOT. Omega V6 thread is M14x1.25 from memory.
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You have a better memory than me. I forgot I had one until I read your post. ;D
I think I bought it to use on my project estate about 12 years ago and havent used it since.
At work tonight, but will try and find it tomorrow and provide some details.
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Compression Test results. Not good reading I think…
1 - 9.5 bar
3 - 9 bar (4.5 on subsequent tests - wait a while then it’s back to 9)
5 - 9.5 bar
2 - 9.5 bar
4 - 9.5 bar
6 - 0 bar (repeated tests several times still zero). Engine spins freely with tester in this plug - all others at least ‘churn’ with some compression.
Even the 9.5s are a bit low aren’t they?
Cyl 6, put my thumb over the tester pipe and there was no noticeable pressure.
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;( ;(
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9.5 is fine, even 9 as it's within 10% :y
The odd one out is obviously #6. So when it comes to it, you've only one head to remove and no more than 4 valves...
How far you go while you're there is up to you, remove and clean both heads and replace the oil cooler would be belts and braces but it's up to you as to how much time/money you want to spend.
Also I doubt you can buy a single head gasket or head bolts for one head...
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The head bolts for my engine came as just one side, chances are its just intake valves. Check the piston height as found a bent rod on my engine.
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also please
does the water pump have a make on it ? just so others know what to avoid in the future .
hopefully yours should be easy to fix now you know . confirmed better once head is off .
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Hi. Both old and new pumps are Quinton Hazell QCP3255.
However, on the failed pump, the nose of the pump was short of the pulley flange by a fair bit - enough for me to comfortably get a grinding disc in to cut it off (see reply 135). And for a roller to be ejected.
On the new pump the nose of the pump goes almost all the way into the step of the flange, leaving no possible escape route for a failed roller from the bearing.
If I’ve not explained that very well I could do a drawing.
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ok thanks for that info . wont be using a qh pump then if mine ever needs changing again . cant renember what i put on cos it was 10 years ago . a pic would be good if you can to identify it from the front !
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Hello, an update on the Y26SE head strip-down...
Following JamesV6CDX detailed instructions for head removal I'm now at this point:
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKbnHd2x/IMG-E2861.jpg)
(BTW - everything is now oiled and cling-filmed nicely)
Now I have a couple of questions.
Firstly, James says: "Working at the back of the engine (from above) remove the 2 torx bolts holding the rear coolant transfer pipe onto the rear of the engine, and remove any other supporting bolts/brackets."
So, do these bolts go in a forwards direction looking from the bulkhead or downwards somehow? It's very difficult to see round there because of all the other tubing in the way.
Secondly, and less important at the moment, the B*bolt is a bit manked up due to me using a regular ring spanner on it a few years ago. Looks like it's a T12 Torx head and M8, but if anyone knows the exact thread I'll put another on my shopping list in due course.
Cheers and thanks,
Dave
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The coolant pipes go in forwards looking from the bulkhead. A mirror can be very useful for things like this.
Cant help on the B bolt thread.
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:y
Cheers mate. Appreciate your help, and thanks for that info.
I will try to get my knuckles in there…
Dave.
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Dont remember it being that difficult (although its been a while) but do remember using a mirror to see what was where.
Im sure there were some pics somewhere on here that showed all this stuff, but cant locate them now. :-\
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https://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90552.0
Can it be seen here?
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………….
Now I have a couple of questions.
Firstly, James says: "Working at the back of the engine (from above) remove the 2 torx bolts holding the rear coolant transfer pipe onto the rear of the engine, and remove any other supporting bolts/brackets."
So, do these bolts go in a forwards direction looking from the bulkhead or downwards somehow? It's very difficult to see round there because of all the other tubing in the way.
You can just about see the torx bolts in this photo.
(https://i.ibb.co/QyV13tF/IMG-2025-04-22-203301.png) (https://ibb.co/mfKMVgC)
And this photo shows the actual pipe. It may help with the orientation.
(https://i.ibb.co/ccTfH7VM/IMG-2025-04-22-203427.png) (https://ibb.co/Y7jnMqwY)
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Crikey, that makes it clearer, but not necessarily easier!
Grateful for those photos, especially of the actual pipe.
Superb pics by the way - where do you get those from ??
As always, grateful for the help YZ…
Dave.
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So, in an ideal world I would never want to see this pipe again…
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNmtp7jg/IMG-2875.jpg)
Ever!
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………….
Superb pics by the way - where do you get those from ??
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I’d like to say that I had a secret source but in reality it was just a pot luck google search. :)
So, in an ideal world I would never want to see this pipe again…
……………
Ever!
;D
Well done. :y It helps if you’re a double jointed contortionist for jobs at the rear of the engine. ;D
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So, in an ideal world I would never want to see this pipe again…
.....
I watched Mark remove that pipe in a field somewhere (Newent ???) ..... he'd obviously done it a few times even back then! ;D ;D
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So, in an ideal world I would never want to see this pipe again…
If it needs a new gasket, it's a 2x37mm. You're welcome to one - I can probably find the little packet of them in the garage, if necessary. :y
https://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=149577.0;all (https://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=149577.0;all)
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Thanks for the offer Stu. I’ll bear that in mind.
At the moment I’m just compiling a list of parts I will need when (if?) everything works out.
Cheers,
Dave
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Progress! 1-3-5 head is off.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YS8QH0Cp/IMG-2883.jpg)
Slight shiny patches on the inlet valves. Matching shiny on the piston crowns. All others are very dark.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZKXqXnm/IMG-2882.jpg)
Bores are very, very smooth.
Any damage opinions so far ?
2-4-6 next.
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If the valves are still true, then reseat them, if not replace them.
Pistons will take much worse to be actually damaged :y
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A quick update. Second head off now, and cyl 6 is clearly showing daylight through the valve seat. So they’re all coming out for checking over.
(https://i.postimg.cc/52zDrcbS/IMG-2902.jpg)
Can anyone recommend a suitable valve spring compressor for these engines ?
Bearing in mind I might only use it 24 48 times…
Cheers.
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That's your smoking gun alright :o
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I used my generic one with swappable end, different dia. Draper or something like that, you will need to tap the end with a hammer to release the collets and a small stick magnet to pick them out. Dab of grease to hold them to the valve when they go back in
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OK. I have a little hammer, a stick magnet (very handy given the number of parts and sockets I’ve dropped), and I have grease.
I’ll have a look at what Machine Mart have to offer for the tool.
Thanks CountryWoman, at least it feels like I’m getting somewhere.
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Can anyone recommend a suitable valve spring compressor for these engines ?
Bearing in mind I might only use it 24 48 times…
Cheers.
Here you go: LINK (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186064861206?_skw=valve+spring+compressor&itmmeta=01JTXFFPVSX5VY8BSMT79YMM6R&hash=item2b52547816:g:OQAAAOSwgplk9oCH&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA0FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1dNpkhuNI8uUydEHr%2Fzr6EfW%2BHU%2B3npBCIN0rfdMshLZrKy7QS4KthNqCNCxeM2Uukmkzrm2UudTe9p%2BynJrfMh4%2BZQHvwzXMtTvTI0ZCCowfT2jqX74u9Fb6B0tGsZgHHIYBICaPL3Iio0lX93O1WXNIiDdbpKRU%2B4m6XFtzEm4h%2BFI9MgOQG%2BciOmmUtfeftjLg2m%2Bw4362BVyOJC%2Bpmzitygujqs3%2Bg1DZjpxUf%2BLqV06tt7fGllSe97BdLwo7M%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR4Tuvq_XZQ)
Used on my V6, several K-series and an A-series. The lever action ones are slightly quicker, but the one I bought in 1990 won't reach modern heads.
I don't use magnets, but cheap pointed tweezers to remove the collets, with a dab of grease to refit them
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Thanks for the suggestion Nick, ordered one Sunday, arrived this morning and all valves now out.
Only 11 quid too.
Cheers :y
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Apologies, but I need to ask a dumb question. Just trying a trial fit of camshaft & head parts this afternoon.
I know I have the right shafts for the sprockets etc. but it's just the elongated holes at opposite sides of the retaining bolt holes that I'm unsure about.
Am I right in thinking that the '3' stamp on sprocket 3 (for example) close to the slot means that the locating dowel on camshaft 3 should go into that slot? Similarly on no. 4 and so on.
I've attached a pic and a diagram of what I mean. Hope it makes sense.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKCLHd6C/Cam-3.jpg)
BTW, valve stem collets are an invention of Satan...
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....
BTW, valve stem collets are an invention of Satan...
;D ;D
Not sure if you mean when removing or refitting, but if refitting, I ''glue'' them to them end of a screw driver with a dab of grease & stick them to the valve with a dab of grease.
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Ha! Yes it was refitting. Removing just took seconds with my little mega-magnet.
First pair took me over an hour to get in then I had a tantrum and called it a day.
Next morning I got them all in using the screwdriver and grease tactic in, maybe, a couple of hours.
But my fingers are just not made for that kind of tiny work any more.
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......
But my fingers are just not made for that kind of tiny work any more.
join the club ;) ;) :y
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(https://i.postimg.cc/xTNf6N4c/20250414-184530.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xMKVrs9/20250414-183950.jpg)
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Thanks for that mate!
Really appreciate your photos.
Looks like I had the right idea, but not the right photos of my own.
:y :y
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You’ve probably already done it by now but this may help. It’s in the workshop manual on Section 2C:12, or page 74 on the pdf. :y Did I send you a link to the workshop manual pdf? :-\ If not, I’ll send you a link. :y
(https://i.ibb.co/rV33Cs0/IMG-2025-05-26-133301.png)[/url (https://ibb.co/WL00bt5)
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Hi. No, not done it yet. Still cleaning up exhaust manifolds.
Link to the workshop manual would be brilliant.
Thanks.
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Link sent. :y
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Hi, a short update and a couple of questions, if I may.
Heads on, camshafts etc. installed, sprockets on and tensioner & idlers on. I've fitted the belt - right way round - and lined up the belt lines as accurately as I can with the the backplate and sprocket marks.
So this is a Y26SE, and the lower idler is not adjustable. The upper one was installed at 11 o'clock then moved to 9, and the tensioner is at 1.5mm above the reference mark. I've NOT turned the engine by two revolutions yet.
My concern is this: the double line mark on the belt does not align with the TDC notches on the engine and the crankshaft pulley, which is spot-on at 6 o'clock. The belt lines are a little up towards the tensioner.
So my questions are:
1. Should I be concerned about this given that everything else looks (to me anyway) to be correct? Even using the gauge on the 1/2 and 3/4 sprockets shows them bang on.
2. Does everything else look OK before I rotate the engine? In particular the 3/4 belt lines don't quite line up with the sprocket lines. If I were to move the belt to the left by one tooth, then it would be slightly out in the other direction.
A couple of pix will show where I'm at.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y62L2Xxc/cam1-2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDSTzQG8/cam3-4.jpg)
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Look at the location of the belt marks relative to the teeth...
They're never going to line up with the pulley marks which are the marks that matter.
You're wasting all that work by not using the locking/timing kit though :-\
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But I did use it…!
I took it off to take the photos more clearly.
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My advice is simple:
the marks on the timing belt are a distraction, and aren't helpful even to position the belt initially.
Use a timing tool kit, and keep turning the engine through and adjusting the belt until all the marks on the tools line up every time.
Torque all of the relevant fasteners, and turn the engine through one more time.
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My advice is simple:
the marks on the timing belt are a distraction, and aren't helpful even to position the belt initially.
Use a timing tool kit, and keep turning the engine through and adjusting the belt until all the marks on the tools line up every time.
Torque all of the relevant fasteners, and turn the engine through one more time.
Agree with this advice. But the fact that white marks are located in a place that will never match the teeth, makes me think the belt is mounted the wrong way. Check the writings references if they point to the right side (clockwise). I did this mistake the first time :D . Or those marks are only for the pre-98 timing scheme and in this case forget what I just said before :-X
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What make and model of timing belt kit did you use?
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It’s a Contitech CT990 K2.
Same type Mark has used a couple of times.
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Just to add. Belt is definitely on the correct way round.
All marks on cam sprockets, gauge, tensioner and crank line up exactly where they should.
I’ve rotated two turns, and repeated this 3 times. As far as I can see everything looks bang on.
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Just to add. Belt is definitely on the correct way round.
All marks on cam sprockets, gauge, tensioner and crank line up exactly where they should.
I’ve rotated two turns, and repeated this 3 times. As far as I can see everything looks bang on.
That's about all you can do :y
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………..
My concern is this: the double line mark on the belt does not align with the TDC notches on the engine and the crankshaft pulley, which is spot-on at 6 o'clock. The belt lines are a little up towards the tensioner.
………..
I’m a little confused here, as the double line on the belt is the first point to align with the crank pulley, hence the wedge in the alignment kit to hold it there, but no matter, it’s not important, as once rotated the lines will be irrelevant anyway. The thing that is important is that there is no slack between cam 4 and the crank pulley when dealing with a fixed idler, hence the anti-clockwise suggestion.
If you’ve rotated it a few times by hand, and the binnacle gauge is still spot on with all of the cam notches when returned to TDC, then that’s a good sign.
Although obvious, another critical point is to confirm that you held the adjuster nut whilst tightening the adjuster bolt. As they go opposite directions one can potentially loosen the other when tightening.
Otherwise, you’ve done a cracking job for someone that initially felt it was a daunting task. :y
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……….
Agree with this advice. But the fact that white marks are located in a place that will never match the teeth, makes me think the belt is mounted the wrong way. …….
I did wonder first of all but now think it’s marked wrong, which is odd as it’s as easy to mark it right as it is to do it wrong.
Not that it’s particularly relevant but:
Cam 1 = Long notch, so white line between teeth
Cam 2 = Short notch so white line on a tooth
Cam 3 = Long notch so white line between teeth (it’s not in the photo)
Cam 4 = Short notch so white line on a tooth (it’s not in the photo)
So it would still be wrong if turned around. :y
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Thanks for your input again.
I took the general advice and ignored the lines. As everyone said, after a couple of turns they’re pretty useless anyway.
So as I say, I locked the crank bang on, wedged, ran the belt to 3&4, used the gauge to get it accurate, then aligned 1&2 on the gauge, using the upper idler to bring them into line.
Couple of turns, then adjusted again, reset the tensioner and turned again.
Every rotation test since then (about 4 I think) has brought the alignment back accurately.
No nasty noises on the rotations either…
Everything’s going back together now.
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IT’S ALIVE…!!!
Huge thanks to everyone for helping me through this.
Tried with no fuel and sounded OK. Fuel pump fuse in and first time! A bit ticky and smoky but after 10-12 minutes it’s sweet.
I’ll compose a better ‘thank you’ when I’m less emotional…!!!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kz3Ww6zB/IMG-2970.jpg)
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Well I bet you are pretty chuffed at sorting that out!
I've been following with constant anticipation - this thread has been like those OOF threads of old. Fascinating and a testament to what forums can achieve.
Epic news :y
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Job very well jobbed :y
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Fantastic news. :y I bet you're well chuffed. :)
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I am mate. Well chuffed. Can’t stress enough how grateful I am for all the advice and encouragement on here.
A few jobs left. Drain and refill coolant. Change oil and filter. And a damn good clean next!
I think that if I could do this at almost 70, hip replacement, arthritis in hands and knees - well, anyone should be able to do it…!! With the help of OOF of course.
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Well done, Dave. You've been methodical and patient, and it's certainly payed off :y
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Well done Dave. :y
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Really nice to hear! You did it.
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:y Beer!!
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And of course… kiitos paljon.
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Oli ilo olla mukana
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Well done to you, don't think i could have but the advice that you get from here is always top notch. :y
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Well done👍 now make sure you test and reward yourself handsomely, you deserve it.
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Well done👍 now make sure you test and reward yourself handsomely, you deserve it.
I think he's tested himself alright...
Time for a treat 8)
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Ha ha trust you ;D rest up Dai👍
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Must have been a bit fuzzy then💥
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I have no time to rest up lads !!
Too busy tasting the fruits of the hop.
Oil and filter. Tick.
Coolant flush and refill. Tick.
Scuttle back on. Tick.
Wipers: can’t be arsed until tomorrow.
Wheels: OK. I’ll I’ll clean them soon.
P. S. I haven’t been called Dai for some years now.
Holiday in New Quay…