Omega Owners Forum

Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Mr Skrunts on 24 September 2008, 10:30:13

Title: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 24 September 2008, 10:30:13
Have been reading M_DTM's Engine Theory's with great interest. it started me thinking if the changes I have seen over the years on production cars,Carbs to fuel injection, diesel cars becoming an everyday thing (cant remember any diesel cars as I was drowing up, points/condensor to electronic ignition.

2 valves to 4 and even 5 valve heads, 5 cylinder, V5 and V10 engines.  Modded cars with engines bolted together, cars introducd with W Formation engines. Turbo's NOS etc etc

Then on Sky TV I see the old racing cars with the old straight eights, V12's then the Bentlys with the old blowers on.  Seen many cars with the magnetto ignition, then dual dizzys (Ferrari Daytona we had at work for example, V12, twin distributors and twin oil systems)

Front wheel drive, 4 wheel drive, the list goes on.

So having a nosey arround the net I found this.  Maybe not the only engine ever built with twin cranks but certainly the 1st I have ever seen.
(http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk106/skruntie/F1/BRM%20Type%2075/2007_04_27_h16.jpg)

(http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk106/skruntie/F1/BRM%20Type%2075/764px-BRM_H16_engine.jpg)

(http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk106/skruntie/F1/BRM%20Type%2075/BRMH161.jpg)
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Kevin Wood on 24 September 2008, 10:47:54
Ahh, yes. BRM. Where Colin Chapman of Lotus' motto was "add lightness and simplicate" BRM's must have been "add cylinders and complicate".  ;D

Still, their V16 is probably the most soul-stirring engine I've ever heard, even though it was not reliable enough to win races.

There's not much new in engines. The concepts we consider "modern" today all date back to pre-war days. Twin cams heads with 4 valves per cylinder, forced induction, fuel injection, etc. all saw service really early on in applications that were less cost-sensitive than day to day cars, and have only filtered down has they have become cheaper to implement, and due to the need for good fuel consumption and emissions performance.

Kevin
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 24 September 2008, 10:59:53
If we go by design, we have the square 4, or boxer engine. the 4 pot, , 5 pot inline six, V6, straight 8, V12, V5, V8, V16.  Then W12 and W16.

So up from the boxer, square 4 (that is if I am calling them correcly that is) or flat 4 as I could/will say, I maybe could assume there have been flat 6's, flat 8.s and maybe even flat 12's  Silly me (sleep deprevation (Porche = Flat 6)

But as the type 75 BRM is 2 flat 8's stacked, then what would it be classed as. if that is it does fall under anything other than the "Type 75" named by BRM
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Kevin Wood on 24 September 2008, 11:09:21
Quote
But as the type 75 BRM is 2 flat 8's stacked, then what would it be classed as. if that is it does fall under anything other than the "Type 75" named by BRM

It's a H16.

.. and to add to the confusion you mustn't forget this :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_deltic

Appologies if it gets Martin Imber all excited.  ;D

Kevin
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 24 September 2008, 11:13:38
Makes total sence

Not read the link yet, line up the con ronrods and connect with the idler ger and I see the "H" Pattern.   :y :y
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 24 September 2008, 11:17:10
Just looked at the link, Thats interesting stuff, never even thought to find out any info on "The Delta"  layout.  Of to have a read through.

Did they ever build a small one for a car, Lizzie might fancy one for a Miggy transplant.    :y :y
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: jereboam on 24 September 2008, 11:18:59
Wot about the Wankel?

Sorry, should have said  "Vot about the Wankel?"
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Kevin Wood on 24 September 2008, 11:21:35
Quote
Wot about the Wankel?

Sorry, should have said  "Vot about the Wankel?"

Ahh, good point. :y

Kevin
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 24 September 2008, 11:23:30
Ah yes.

First one I remember is the RO80
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: jereboam on 24 September 2008, 11:28:39
Quote
Ah yes.

First one I remember is the RO80

That's the only one I've ever heard of. :)
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 24 September 2008, 11:32:47
Mazda RX 6/7/8 :y
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: The Red Baron on 24 September 2008, 11:36:34
another interesting engine for you scruntie is the commer TS3 2 stroke diesel.  :y
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 24 September 2008, 11:41:41
Dont forget the H24 Napier Sabre engine with sleeve vales of the 1940's:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/Napier_Sabre01.jpg/800px-Napier_Sabre01.jpg)
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Kevin Wood on 24 September 2008, 11:51:02
Quote
Dont forget the H24 Napier Sabre engine with sleeve vales of the 1940's:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/Napier_Sabre01.jpg/800px-Napier_Sabre01.jpg)

You can really see from that photo the advantage of H formation engines  in aircraft if you compare it with a radial - low frontal area!

Oh, we forgot radials:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/Pratt_%26_Whitney_R-2800_Engine_1.jpg/180px-Pratt_%26_Whitney_R-2800_Engine_1.jpg)

The Pratt and Whitney R2800 double wasp.  :-*

Kevin
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 24 September 2008, 11:56:45
Yep, trouble is that cranks are one of the heaviest single components in an engine.....and to have 2 of them with connecting gears!
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 24 September 2008, 11:57:02
Wait while Lizzie comes online, she will be in her elemrnt. :) :y
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 24 September 2008, 12:01:38
Quote
Just looked at the link, Thats interesting stuff, never even thought to find out any info on "The Delta"  layout.  Of to have a read through.

Did they ever build a small one for a car, Lizzie might fancy one for a Miggy transplant.    :y :y

It was actually developed as a small powerful and light weight engine for military use!
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: The Red Baron on 24 September 2008, 12:07:11
Quote
Quote
Just looked at the link, Thats interesting stuff, never even thought to find out any info on "The Delta"  layout.  Of to have a read through.

Did they ever build a small one for a car, Lizzie might fancy one for a Miggy transplant.    :y :y

It was actually developed as a small powerful and light weight engine for military use!
a marine engine if i remember correct.
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Martin_1962 on 24 September 2008, 12:28:10
Started as a marine engine then EE thought they would try it out in a railway loco - and ended up with the prototype Deltic

The engine note on the Deltics is amazing and like nothing else.

Look for clips on youtube, preferably mainline clips where they are on both engines, rather than on 1 like my clip
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: The Red Baron on 24 September 2008, 12:33:05
its the next best engine noise to a merlin in my opinion.  :D
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Kevin Wood on 24 September 2008, 12:47:05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tK8BfoTLG4

Now tell me that doesn't raise the hackles on the back of your neck - during the odd few seconds when it's actually firing on all 16!

Kevin
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 24 September 2008, 12:49:49
Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tK8BfoTLG4

Now tell me that doesn't raise the hackles on the back of your neck - during the odd few seconds when it's actually firing on all 16!

Kevin

Smart, Where can I get one.  ;D ;D :y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZMPDCNyQxE
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Ken T on 24 September 2008, 13:00:17
another amazing engine was the Brough Superior Golden Dream, http://jeffdean2.home.att.net/brough.htm . Is this H4 in configuration ?. There used to be one in the Brum motorcycle museum, until it burnt down.  :'(

Ken
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 24 September 2008, 13:03:26
And similarly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iffnw_rbB1Q

Only 2260bhp on that one and not the full 5000bhp of the final production units!
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Ian_D on 24 September 2008, 15:25:10
bet his neighbours love him...
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=N0f3TbWWMKA&feature=related
 ;D
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 24 September 2008, 15:41:45
A Radial Engined Car

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=f2V7B7-gdRA

http://pl.youtube.com/user/dwerke
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Jay w on 24 September 2008, 16:08:01
I WANT THE GOGOMOBILE  :o :o :o :o
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Kevin Wood on 24 September 2008, 16:42:58
Quote
bet his neighbours love him...
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=N0f3TbWWMKA&feature=related
 ;D

That's the chap from PPC mag who dropped that engine into an SD1, IIRC. 8-)

Kevin
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: LaserLance on 24 September 2008, 17:35:05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd_ZUgbu-DU&feature=related this one that makes you think christ how they build this in the 60 's when everyone run a bonneville and stuff like it . Amazing engineering really , 20k rpm with pistons the size of thimbells
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: pete.h on 24 September 2008, 17:42:47
Didn't someone put a gas turbine engine in a car in the 60's , might have been Rover but I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 24 September 2008, 19:26:45
Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd_ZUgbu-DU&feature=related this one that makes you think jings how they build this in the 60 's when everyone run a bonneville and stuff like it . Amazing engineering really , 20k rpm with pistons the size of thimbells

Motorbike engines dont interest me much.....cant say I am a fan of a screamer
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: STMO123 on 24 September 2008, 19:38:09
Quote
Didn't someone put a gas turbine engine in a car in the 60's , might have been Rover but I'm not sure.

I remember seeing one in a truck on Tomorrows World.
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 24 September 2008, 19:39:08
Engine wise on the Bikes I like the Honda CDX1000 and Z1300 Kwak with thier 6 Cylinder lumps.  (big cruisers)

Or from a different point of view what about this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFGy-A68_vY
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: craykent on 24 September 2008, 19:43:29
has anyone seen or heard of the two rotary diesels in wroughton science museum they are well built engines twin rotor i wonder what they would have pulled like  ;)
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: bedders on 24 September 2008, 19:44:49
Does anyone remember the Honda with oval pistons? (ceramic I think)
Strokers were ruling the roost & Honda came up with this 4 stroke with oval pistons, Mick Grant crashed the thing on its debut & it burst into flames, I'd bet they were pleased with him.
The Honda 6 (250 & 297) & Honda 5 (125) were light years ahead of anything in the sixties, & the Guzzi v8 was something special in the 50's also.
So far in advance of anything on 4 wheels.
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: LaserLance on 24 September 2008, 19:50:48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFGy-A68_vY saw that thing on one of discory channels the other day they raced it up against a jet trainer over a mile from standing start it beat the plane .....just . Yank comedian Jay Leno's got one he said some guy pulled up by him at a set off lights got to close and it started to melt his bumper  :) :) 1200* /c heat comes from pipe  
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: The Elite on 24 September 2008, 19:52:06
Quote
Didn't someone put a gas turbine engine in a car in the 60's , might have been Rover but I'm not sure.

Didn't the police use them for a bit but gave up because the crims could here them coming and did a runner? I seem to remember my dad telling me this...
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: bedders on 24 September 2008, 19:58:34
Quote
Quote
Didn't someone put a gas turbine engine in a car in the 60's , might have been Rover but I'm not sure.

Didn't the police use them for a bit but gave up because the crims could here them coming and did a runner? I seem to remember my dad telling me this...

No, the gas turbine is vitually silent, apart from a slight whistle, Rover put one into a modified P4, but they didn't go into production.
The railways experimented with them for a while, I saw GT3 at an exhibition in Marylebone many years ago, it had coupling rods, and was designed to look similar to a steam loco.
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: LaserLance on 24 September 2008, 20:01:27
Quote
Does anyone remember the Honda with oval pistons? (ceramic I think)
Strokers were ruling the roost & Honda came up with this 4 stroke with oval pistons, Mick Grant crashed the thing on its debut & it burst into flames, I'd bet they were pleased with him.
The Honda 6 (250 & 297) & Honda 5 (125) were light years ahead of anything in the sixties, & the Guzzi v8 was something special in the 50's also.
So far in advance of anything on 4 wheels.
Yeah i remember it it had pistons like cans of Spam , double conrods and host technical stuff , but typical Big H well over enginerred and slow as hell compared to the 500 strokers ,didnt take long for them to drop it and revert to a 2 stroke
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: mickh on 24 September 2008, 20:03:26
Quote
If we go by design, we have the square 4, or boxer engine. the 4 pot, , 5 pot inline six, V6, straight 8, V12, V5, V8, V16.  Then W12 and W16.

So up from the boxer, square 4 (that is if I am calling them correcly that is) or flat 4 as I could/will say, I maybe could assume there have been flat 6's, flat 8.s and maybe even flat 12's  Silly me (sleep deprevation (Porche = Flat 6)

But as the type 75 BRM is 2 flat 8's stacked, then what would it be classed as. if that is it does fall under anything other than the "Type 75" named by BRM
hi the only time this engine won a race it was in a lotus  ;D it was built for the 3 l f1 in 1966 at the works it was know as the H16
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: LaserLance on 24 September 2008, 20:03:52
i vaguely remember some one putting a RR merlin engine in a Roller and taking it down the autobahn in the 70's ,was a kid out in germany then and remember it being mentioned on BFBS but i could be wrong as it was a long time ago
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: bedders on 24 September 2008, 20:10:37
Quote
i vaguely remember some one putting a RR merlin engine in a Roller and taking it down the autobahn in the 70's ,was a kid out in germany then and remember it being mentioned on BFBS but i could be wrong as it was a long time ago

I'm sure your correct, one even raced in vintage/classic events, not too good in the corners, but "nippy" along the straights. :o
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 24 September 2008, 20:52:20
Quote
Quote
Quote
Didn't someone put a gas turbine engine in a car in the 60's , might have been Rover but I'm not sure.

Didn't the police use them for a bit but gave up because the crims could here them coming and did a runner? I seem to remember my dad telling me this...

No, the gas turbine is vitually silent, apart from a slight whistle, Rover put one into a modified P4, but they didn't go into production.
The railways experimented with them for a while, I saw GT3 at an exhibition in Marylebone many years ago, it had coupling rods, and was designed to look similar to a steam loco.

To start with engine changes have involved the change from push rods and tappets, from the side to the centre of the engine, to cams.


As for Turbines this has a very interesting history; from Parson experimental boat the Turbinia at the Royal Navy Spithead Review in 1897, to the revolutionary battleship HMS Dreadnought in
1907 :y:

(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/Dreadnought.jpg)

To one of the three engines in the Titanic :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

then to the railway steam powered Turbomotive LMS Princess Class
Pacific 6202 of 1936 :y:

(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/turbom1.jpg)

with its inner turbine set up:

(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/turbsect.jpg)

which was rebuilt as BR 46202 Princess Anne in 1952, due to the turbine experiment with steam railway engines being dropped, before she was wrecked in the terrible Harrow & Wealdstone rail disaster (122 dead) of 8th October 1952, after running just 11443 miles. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Then to, as mentioned the Rover Jet 1 car (converted P4:

(http://
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/RoverJetCar.jpg
)

before the modern applications in many forms to the present day. :y :y
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: bedders on 24 September 2008, 21:02:40
http://www.railwayarchive.org.uk/stories/getobjectstory.php?rnum=L3522&enum=LE130&maxp=18&pnum=11

This was the GT3 to which I referred to in an earlier post.
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 24 September 2008, 21:04:14
Quote
i vaguely remember some one putting a RR merlin engine in a Roller and taking it down the autobahn in the 70's ,was a kid out in germany then and remember it being mentioned on BFBS but i could be wrong as it was a long time ago

That was "The Beast" he oridinally had the engine in a capri.  There is a thread about it a month or so back (try a search for john Dodd)

(http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk106/skruntie/Cars%20-%20Other/Thebeast02.jpg)

(http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk106/skruntie/Cars%20-%20Other/Thebeast03.jpg)

(http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk106/skruntie/Cars%20-%20Other/Thebeast.jpg)
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 24 September 2008, 21:05:12
Quote
http://www.railwayarchive.org.uk/stories/getobjectstory.php?rnum=L3522&enum=LE130&maxp=18&pnum=11

This was the GT3 to which I referred to in an earlier post.


Thanks Bedders! :y  Great picture of an interesting experimental period with alternative methods of power for railway engines other than steam. 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) :y :y :y
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 24 September 2008, 21:08:51
The Beast

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxMxFE37Sxw
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 24 September 2008, 21:13:08
Quote
Quote
http://www.railwayarchive.org.uk/stories/getobjectstory.php?rnum=L3522&enum=LE130&maxp=18&pnum=11

This was the GT3 to which I referred to in an earlier post.


Thanks Bedders! :y  Great picture of an interesting experimental period with alternative methods of power for railway engines other than steam. 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) :y :y :y

A former colleague of mine (Ross Lowry) worked on that for English Electric and always commented on how it was the most effective fuel burner he had ever seen!
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: bedders on 24 September 2008, 21:17:33
Quote
Quote
Quote
http://www.railwayarchive.org.uk/stories/getobjectstory.php?rnum=L3522&enum=LE130&maxp=18&pnum=11

This was the GT3 to which I referred to in an earlier post.


Thanks Bedders! :y  Great picture of an interesting experimental period with alternative methods of power for railway engines other than steam. 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) :y :y :y

A former colleague of mine (Ross Lowry) worked on that for English Electric and always commented on how it was the most effective fuel burner he had ever seen!

Yes I bet it was.
Isn't it typical of the British to dump an idea, at just the point where it is almost perfected. :'(
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 24 September 2008, 21:20:52
Quote
The Beast

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxMxFE37Sxw


25 GALLONS of oil!
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 24 September 2008, 21:21:25
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
http://www.railwayarchive.org.uk/stories/getobjectstory.php?rnum=L3522&enum=LE130&maxp=18&pnum=11

This was the GT3 to which I referred to in an earlier post.


Thanks Bedders! :y  Great picture of an interesting experimental period with alternative methods of power for railway engines other than steam. 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) :y :y :y

A former colleague of mine (Ross Lowry) worked on that for English Electric and always commented on how it was the most effective fuel burner he had ever seen!

Yes I bet it was.
Isn't it typical of the British to dump an idea, at just the point where it is almost perfected. :'(


Lol, far from perfected and far from practical sadly!
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: bedders on 24 September 2008, 21:47:06
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
http://www.railwayarchive.org.uk/stories/getobjectstory.php?rnum=L3522&enum=LE130&maxp=18&pnum=11

This was the GT3 to which I referred to in an earlier post.


Thanks Bedders! :y  Great picture of an interesting experimental period with alternative methods of power for railway engines other than steam. 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) :y :y :y

A former colleague of mine (Ross Lowry) worked on that for English Electric and always commented on how it was the most effective fuel burner he had ever seen!

Yes I bet it was.
Isn't it typical of the British to dump an idea, at just the point where it is almost perfected. :'(


Lol, far from perfected and far from practical sadly!

Well I don't know the ins & outs of the thing, it was a bit before my time, but the damn gas turbine engine is now the industry standard for warships, aircraft & smaller power stations. With more research at the time, (something we're not noted for) the same may have happened in the rail sector. But then sadly, we may not have had the glorious arrowhead Deltic engine. :(
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Martin_1962 on 24 September 2008, 22:12:20
Quote
Does anyone remember the Honda with oval pistons? (ceramic I think)
Strokers were ruling the roost & Honda came up with this 4 stroke with oval pistons, Mick Grant crashed the thing on its debut & it burst into flames, I'd bet they were pleased with him.
The Honda 6 (250 & 297) & Honda 5 (125) were light years ahead of anything in the sixties, & the Guzzi v8 was something special in the 50's also.
So far in advance of anything on 4 wheels.


NR500 - basically a 32v V8 using 4 pistons
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Martin_1962 on 24 September 2008, 22:15:59
GT3 was too thirsty, needed turntables, had a lot of the same problems as steam locos, yet proved gas turbines could be simple
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: mickh on 24 September 2008, 22:21:45
1963 Rover-BRM gas turbine. The open top car was set to average 93.2 mph. It ran with the number 00 as no official class could be agreed for it. After the rest of the field had left via the traditional start with driver running to the car angled at the side of the track "00" was flagged off seperately . Graham Hill and Richie Ginther covered 2582.96 miles at an average of 107.84 mph.The cars fastest lap was 113.62 mph by Ginther. They would have been 8th.if classified.

 

1965 Rover-BRM gas turbine. Using this updated coupe version of the 1963 car Graham Hill and Jackie Stewart averaged 98.88 mph to finish 10th. overall, third in class and 9th in the Index of Thermal Efficiency. The addition of a heat exchanger helped the car to cover 2,370.7 miles in the 24 hours for the consumption of 176.5 gallons of paraffin - giving 13.52 mpg.

Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 24 September 2008, 22:25:26
Quote
Wot about the Wankel?

Sorry, should have said  "Vot about the Wankel?"


Yes Jereboam, what has been the development of this "revolutionary" engine of the 1960s? :-/

I know Mazda once had the worldwide patent rights, and used it in some models, with, as understood it, problems developing on its tri-rotor contact points with the master 'cylinder / chamber'.

Was it further developed with these issue resolved?  Is it installed in any cars in 2008?  Is it still Mazda who have sole rights on it?
What, if any, are still the challenges with this engine design? :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/

 :y :y
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: bedders on 24 September 2008, 22:28:35
Quote
GT3 was too thirsty, needed turntables, had a lot of the same problems as steam locos, yet proved gas turbines could be simple

That is my point, with development, it would have had a cab at each end (as a diesel) therefore not requiring a turntable. It didn't have to have a fire lit hours before it was rostered, and i'm sure the fuel consumption could have been addressed in time.
But as a steam fan, i'm glad it went the way it did, although it just sums up the"British way" remember tilting trains, linear motor trains etc etc. We built the worlds railways, but now we import just about everything we use, sadly.  
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: bedders on 24 September 2008, 22:36:44
Quote
Quote
Wot about the Wankel?

Sorry, should have said  "Vot about the Wankel?"


Yes Jereboam, what has been the development of this "revolutionary" engine of the 1960s? :-/

I know Mazda once had the worldwide patent rights, and used it in some models, with, as understood it, problems developing on its tri-rotor contact points with the master 'cylinder / chamber'.

Was it further developed with these issue resolved?  Is it installed in any cars in 2008?  Is it still Mazda who have sole rights on it?
What, if any, are still the challenges with this engine design? :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/

 :y :y

Norton developed a highly creditable rotary engine for motorcycle racing & swept all before them for a period. All that with 3 men in an old shed somewhere, where it took £m's & hundreds of engineers in Japan to do something similar.
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Jay w on 24 September 2008, 22:37:59
Quote
Quote
Wot about the Wankel?

Sorry, should have said  "Vot about the Wankel?"


Yes Jereboam, what has been the development of this "revolutionary" engine of the 1960s? :-/

I know Mazda once had the worldwide patent rights, and used it in some models, with, as understood it, problems developing on its tri-rotor contact points with the master 'cylinder / chamber'.

Was it further developed with these issue resolved?  Is it installed in any cars in 2008?  Is it still Mazda who have sole rights on it?
What, if any, are still the challenges with this engine design? :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/

 :y :y

Mazda still produce the RX8 which has a rotary engine it in, but its emissions are very high and this could effectively see the end of it, which is a shame as it is now a engine that has it's issues pretty much sorted out.

The original Rotary engine in the RO80 was prone to burning it's rotor tips, this was very expensive and so people ended up putting ford V4 engines is as a replacement, Mazda were still having issues when the RX7 first came out, but during the life of the RX7 they ironed out a lot of the issues...

i believe it's swept capacity is about 1300/1400 CC and puts out approx 190bhp!!
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: mickh on 24 September 2008, 22:38:01


In Britain, in the 1960s, Rolls Royce Motor Car Division at Crewe, Cheshire, pioneered a two-stage Diesel version of the Wankel engine.[2]

Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 24 September 2008, 22:41:47
Quote
Quote
Quote
Wot about the Wankel?

Sorry, should have said  "Vot about the Wankel?"


Yes Jereboam, what has been the development of this "revolutionary" engine of the 1960s? :-/

I know Mazda once had the worldwide patent rights, and used it in some models, with, as understood it, problems developing on its tri-rotor contact points with the master 'cylinder / chamber'.

Was it further developed with these issue resolved?  Is it installed in any cars in 2008?  Is it still Mazda who have sole rights on it?
What, if any, are still the challenges with this engine design? :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/

 :y :y

Mazda still produce the RX8 which has a rotary engine it in, but its emissions are very high and this could effectively see the end of it, which is a shame as it is now a engine that has it's issues pretty much sorted out.

The original Rotary engine in the RO80 was prone to burning it's rotor tips, this was very expensive and so people ended up putting ford V4 engines is as a replacement, Mazda were still having issues when the RX7 first came out, but during the life of the RX7 they ironed out a lot of the issues...

i believe it's swept capacity is about 1300/1400 CC and puts out approx 190bhp!!


Thanks! :y  
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: JueV6 on 24 September 2008, 22:43:04
shmnbo deleted my post ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 24 September 2008, 22:43:14
Quote

In Britain, in the 1960s, Rolls Royce Motor Car Division at Crewe, Cheshire, pioneered a two-stage Diesel version of the Wankel engine.[2]


Thanks, but what happened about the patent rights then?  Did Rolls Royce sell them on to Mazda? :-/ :-/
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: albitz on 24 September 2008, 22:46:22
Quote
Quote
Does anyone remember the Honda with oval pistons? (ceramic I think)
Strokers were ruling the roost & Honda came up with this 4 stroke with oval pistons, Mick Grant crashed the thing on its debut & it burst into flames, I'd bet they were pleased with him.
The Honda 6 (250 & 297) & Honda 5 (125) were light years ahead of anything in the sixties, & the Guzzi v8 was something special in the 50's also.
So far in advance of anything on 4 wheels.


NR500 - basically a 32v V8 using 4 pistons
with2 conrods per piston and iirc 2 crankshafts (?)
further to the wankel engine info-suzuki had a wankel engined road bike in the 70,s RE5 -not a huge sucess,but probably very collectable now.
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Martin_1962 on 24 September 2008, 22:51:45
Some NSU RO80s are now Mazda powered
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Kevin Wood on 24 September 2008, 23:19:28
Quote
i believe it's swept capacity is about 1300/1400 CC and puts out approx 190bhp!!

More like 240 BHP @ 9,000 RPM from the Jap spec models IIRC. 8-)

A little bit thirsty due to the low compression inherent in a Wankel engine (they're just begging for forced induction really).

Kevin
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 25 September 2008, 02:28:30
Quote
Quote
i believe it's swept capacity is about 1300/1400 CC and puts out approx 190bhp!!

More like 240 BHP @ 9,000 RPM from the Jap spec models IIRC. 8-)

A little bit thirsty due to the low compression inherent in a Wankel engine (they're just begging for forced induction really).

Kevin

2 models (specs) available in UK (Engine power wise)

RX-8 (192ps)       
RX-8 (231ps)
Title: Re: Engines With A Differnce
Post by: bedders on 25 September 2008, 08:04:45
Quote
Quote
Quote
Wot about the Wankel?

Sorry, should have said  "Vot about the Wankel?"


Yes Jereboam, what has been the development of this "revolutionary" engine of the 1960s? :-/


I know Mazda once had the worldwide patent rights, and used it in some models, with, as understood it, problems developing on its tri-rotor contact points with the master 'cylinder / chamber'.

Was it further developed with these issue resolved?  Is it installed in any cars in 2008?  Is it still Mazda who have sole rights on it?
What, if any, are still the challenges with this engine design? :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/

 :y :y

Norton developed a highly creditable rotary engine for motorcycle racing & swept all before them for a period. All that with 3 men in an old shed somewhere, where it took £m's & hundreds of engineers in Japan to do something similar.


Some info on the Norton rotary engine.

Launched a year ago at Britain's Birmingham Show, and after a season of development held back by the dismal British summer's constant rain, the NRV588 currently produces 165 horsepower at 11,450 rpm from its liquid-cooled twin-rotor engine, yet weighs just 289 pounds with all fluids but fuel. Crighton's ultimate rotary racer offers a power-to-weight ratio comparable to today's factory superbikes, with performance enhanced by current technology that includes a ride-by-wire throttle, fuel injection with a range of usable maps and traction control. "This is the bike I wanted to build for 1995 after we'd beaten the Yamahas and Ducatis plus the RC45 Honda to win the 1994 championship," says Crighton. "I wanted fuel injection for the road bikes to cope with emissions and ride-by-wire throttle to make it easier to ride in the wet via traction control. But they changed the rules to get rid of the Nortons, and anyway the company was fizzling out, so it never got built. But [a British magazine] published an article about my ideas back in August 1994, and when Roy Richards hired me three years ago to restore all his rotary Nortons for the museum, after I'd been working for him for a while I showed him the article. After reading it he said, 'Well, would you like to build it to finish the story off?' He said that he'd finance it personally, and that's how it's come about."