Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Dusty on 27 September 2008, 12:17:46
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Can anyone help. I have been in this house for 4 years and have yet to bleed the system of air.
Just tried the system to see if everything was ok for the winter. It works, but the radiators are full of air upstairs. There is only 1 inch of heat at the very bottom.
Trouble is the previous owner put radiators upstairs without any bleed valves. :o :o :o
Can anyone let me know how to bleed the system of air another way.
Or it will be a cold winter for Mr & Mrs Dusty :'( :-* :-*
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Radiators without bleed valves, are you sure!
There not those where they are fitted to the rear are they?
Key question would be, how is the inhibitor......and is it air or Hydrogen (many moons ago we would light the gas to see what it was as you bled the rads!)
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If they don't have bleed valves how did they fill them when first installed ????????
Never seem one without, then again I'm not a plumber.
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Just read your message and there are a couple of questions I have to see if we can diagnose this problem.
1. Is the boiler a combi? (does hot water and heating from the same unit)
2. Is there a pressure gauge on the front control panel?
3. What is the pressure gauge reading when the system is cold.
4. Have you had any decoration work or alterations done that have had the radiators drained or removed for any reason?
If the answer to 4 is no it appears to me that your system is losing water some where.
If your boiler is a conventional wall mounted or back boiler type with a header tank (small tan approx16" x 12"x 14" tall) black and insulated or poss metal galvanised in the loft. Check that the ball valve has not stuck and the tank is empty. If this is the case move the valve up and down until the water flows and the system will start to fill with water. You can then vent the radiators don't run the pump when you do this it does not help.
The radiators will have vents on them if they are a rolled top metal they will have vents usually located on the inside face (facing the wall or other pannel if a double pannel) they are sometimes located behind a removable plastic cap.
Always remember to vent the system slowly I usually start at the bottom of the system and work up to the upper floor(s).
Try this and come back to me with your findings. :y
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Radiators without bleed valves, are you sure!
There not those where they are fitted to the rear are they?
Key question would be, how is the inhibitor......and is it air or Hydrogen (many moons ago we would light the gas to see what it was as you bled the rads!)
I agree, plumbing is one of my loved hobbies, and I have seen many radiators in my time but I have never seen ones without bleed valves! :o :o :o :o :o :o
As Mark states they could well be at the rear / in the middle of doubles. ;)
Systems must be bled when first filled and regularly thereafter, especially those at the top of the system so you always have bleed valves for that reason Dusty. :y :y :y
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Thanks for all your replies.
The central heating system is not a combi, but the old fashioned type, with a header tank in the airing cupboard. The water seems to be flowing normally. The air inside the radiators has never been bled, not since we have owned the house, so that is over 4 years. :o
Because I'm not sure what you mean, I've photographed the radiators. This is a picture of one radiator, and it is typical of all the ones upstairs.
(http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/5/9/9/8/5/6/webimg/177753091_o.jpg)
(http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/5/9/9/8/5/6/webimg/177753118_o.jpg)
(http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/5/9/9/8/5/6/webimg/177753072_o.jpg)
(http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/5/9/9/8/5/6/webimg/177753016_o.jpg)
(http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/5/9/9/8/5/6/webimg/177753045_o.jpg)
Here's hoping this can shed some light on it :) :-/ :-*
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Just as I suspected Dusty, on those particular radiators the bleed screws are recessed into the back of the top inside section either to the far left or right :y :y :y :y
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Run your hand accross the rear surface of the upper part of the rad, it'll certainly have a recessed bleed screw.. the rest is just simple, assuming it's a single circuit system, bleed the the lower rads first, progress to upper rads next, go all around them again in the same order, make sure the tank has refilled, then fire it up for an hour, let it cool down for an hour or so and re-bleed....
Pretty sure your winter will be a warm one ;)
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Just as I suspected Dusty, on those particular radiators the bleed screws are recessed into the back of the top inside section either to the far left or right :y :y :y :y
Thanks Lizzie.Yes I have found them about half an inch down from the top in the corner.
I can feel but not see them.They seem to be in a very awkward position .Do you know what tool fits them ( spanner or screwdriver)
It would be much easier to do if they were on the front rather than the back of the rad.
Did'nt realise how dusty(pardon the pun) the rads are in the pictures........how embarrassing . :-[ : :-* :-* :-*
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Just as I suspected Dusty, on those particular radiators the bleed screws are recessed into the back of the top inside section either to the far left or right :y :y :y :y
Thanks Lizzie.Yes I have found them about half an inch down from the top in the corner.
I can feel but not see them.They seem to be in a very awkward position .Do you know what tool fits them ( spanner or screwdriver)
It would be much easier to do if they were on the front rather than the back of the rad.
Did'nt realise how dusty(pardon the pun) the rads are in the pictures........how embarrassing . :-[ : :-* :-* :-*
That's good Dusty!! ;)
Neither of those tools are any good, you need a radiator key available in any good DIY store. :y
Ensure you do not undo the screw too far and have it come out as you can have water going everywhere whilst you try to find it and refit!! :o :o Just in case though always keep towels available for mpoing up any spills. In addition carryout the bleeding when the radiators are cold, as very quickly you can be trying to retighten the screw with very hot water burning your hands. ::) ::) ::) ::)
If you still have a header tank for your rad system, then double check the ballcock is free moving and allowing refil as if the system has not been refilled for at least four years as you state, the bullcock can become stuck in the closed position.
As already stated you require an inhibitor in your system, once more available from any good DIY, but I would always fully empty and flush the system out first before refilling with this mix as you would on a miggy!! :y :y ;)
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Pop into local DIY ask for "Radiator Bleed Key" :y
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Beat me to it Lizzie ;D ;D
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Just as I suspected Dusty, on those particular radiators the bleed screws are recessed into the back of the top inside section either to the far left or right :y :y :y :y
Thanks Lizzie.Yes I have found them about half an inch down from the top in the corner.
I can feel but not see them.They seem to be in a very awkward position .Do you know what tool fits them ( spanner or screwdriver)
It would be much easier to do if they were on the front rather than the back of the rad.
Did'nt realise how dusty(pardon the pun) the rads are in the pictures........how embarrassing . :-[ : :-* :-* :-*
That's good Dusty!! ;)
Neither of those tools are any good, you need a radiator key available in any good DIY store. :y
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2PCE-EASY-GRIP-SOLID-BRASS-RADIATOR-VALVE-BLEED-KEY-SET_W0QQitemZ380060996007QQihZ025QQcategoryZ303QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem?refid=store
Have a looky at this link ;)
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Just as I suspected Dusty, on those particular radiators the bleed screws are recessed into the back of the top inside section either to the far left or right :y :y :y :y
Thanks Lizzie.Yes I have found them about half an inch down from the top in the corner.
I can feel but not see them.They seem to be in a very awkward position .Do you know what tool fits them ( spanner or screwdriver)
It would be much easier to do if they were on the front rather than the back of the rad.
Did'nt realise how dusty(pardon the pun) the rads are in the pictures........how embarrassing . :-[ : :-* :-* :-*
That's good Dusty!! ;)
Neither of those tools are any good, you need a radiator key available in any good DIY store. :y
Please note Dusty the edited version of my last post :y :y
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Got it now .Thanks to Lizzie and every one else who has helped me.
Spanner or screwdriver.....you foolish woman Dusty....You can see that I would never make a plumber. :-[ :-* :-*
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Got it now .Thanks to Lizzie and every one else who has helped me.
Spanner or screwdriver.....you foolish woman Dusty....You can see that I would never make a plumber. :-[ :-* :-*
But you could learn Dusty and you are starting the process now :y :y :y.
I thought I couldn't 40 years ago, with electrics, plumbing, car mechanics and general building, but after some self training and advice from professions in each field, now I can!
All women, including yourself Dusty could do it; no prob :y :y ;) ;) ;)
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Plumbing is a doddle, and very theraputic I find!
Those type are often supplied with a flat spanner to actuate the bleed valve.
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::) Where are all the (usual) OOF-blokes with jokes about 'bleeding nipples' etc. ;D
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::) Where are all the (usual) OOF-blokes with jokes about 'bleeding nipples' etc. ;D
I was always aware of the possible double meanings Debs...so I picked my words very carefully. ;D ;D :-* :-*
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Hello again
Just looked at the photos especially the last one the valave appears to be passing water if other rads are the same this could be the cause of your water loss, though with the header tank working it should re-fill.
I'm not sure but the tank in the airing cupboard should be the tank for the hot water and not the central heating system (it should not run all the time only when drawing off hot water).
Is the system now full?
If the same header tank is the tank that also feed the hot water this will be the cause of the air and corrosion in the system whatever you do don't use inhibitor in this type of system because the two water mix and you will be bathing in central heating inhibitor.
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Hello again
Just looked at the photos especially the last one the valave appears to be passing water if other rads are the same this could be the cause of your water loss, though with the header tank working it should re-fill.
I'm not sure but the tank in the airing cupboard should be the tank for the hot water and not the central heating system (it should not run all the time only when drawing off hot water).
Is the system now full?
If the same header tank is the tank that also feed the hot water this will be the cause of the air and corrosion in the system whatever you do don't use inhibitor in this type of system because the two water mix and you will be bathing in central heating inhibitor.
Thanks for that. The header tank is separate from the tank feeding the hot water cylinder. We just had the ball joint replaced last year due to corrosion, so it is working ok. :-*
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Hello again
Just looked at the photos especially the last one the valave appears to be passing water if other rads are the same this could be the cause of your water loss, though with the header tank working it should re-fill.
I'm not sure but the tank in the airing cupboard should be the tank for the hot water and not the central heating system (it should not run all the time only when drawing off hot water).
Is the system now full?
If the same header tank is the tank that also feed the hot water this will be the cause of the air and corrosion in the system whatever you do don't use inhibitor in this type of system because the two water mix and you will be bathing in central heating inhibitor.
The hot water and central heating water supplies are two completely separate systems that go into and out of the same boiler unit Bob. ;)
The two do not have any connection with each other, with separate cold supplies, tanks, and the CH system has its own header tank which I was referring to before. This either is in the loft alongside the main cold water tank for the hot water system (If a non-direct system) or sited on top of the main hot water storage tank in say the airing cupboard or elsewhere. :y :y
There is absolutely no risk of the inhibitor ending up in your hot water Dusty. If it did it is either an illegal system or you have a leak from one system to another which is virtually impossible. :D ;)
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Header/expansion tank for the central heating should be a smaller size than the main tank that feeds your hot water system. This is usually located in the roof space, or maybe airing cupboard.
As stated earlier bleed all of your radiators starting with the one furthest away then end with the one closest to the boiler, or highest.
Get your system up and running properly and satisfy yourself it's working properly, then put some inhibitor in the system. You will need to partially drain down to do this as it seems you have no way of introducing this via a radiator, need to put it in via the tank. Don't forget to isolate the water feedpipe to the tank first before you drain down.
It's not a bad idea to completly flush the system out while you at it to do a good job. To do it properly take each radiator off in turn and flush out with a hosepipe, it's suprising how much black sludge comes out of them.
Mick
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Lizzy
Just to put the record straight some old systems filled the heating system through the copper hot water cylinder. It was not illegal at the time though the result of this was that the heating system filled with air due to the exchange of water when expansion due to heat up of the heating system pushed water from the heating system into the domestic hot water and the reverse on cooling. If I recall the system was called a Primatic.
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Lizzy
Just to put the record straight some old systems filled the heating system through the copper hot water cylinder. It was not illegal at the time though the result of this was that the heating system filled with air due to the exchange of water when expansion due to heat up of the heating system pushed water from the heating system into the domestic hot water and the reverse on cooling. If I recall the system was called a Primatic.
Thanks Bob! :y :y
In all my years of plumbing never encountered one of those, so thanks that is very interesting. 8-) 8-) 8-)
I think anyone still with one would be best to replace it asap! :D ;)
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Totally agree though when Dusty said the water was flowing through the tank it had me concerned. This system was used in copper cylinders and the Elson tank type units (rectangular copper tank with hardboard cover the one with the single break tank inside). It worked on the principle of and bell type housing with the system feed pipe inside it it relied on air trapped in the top of the bell and water exchanged between the system and the domestic water. British Gas excluded them from the star plan servicing because of the corrosion problems, hence when Dusty stated the rads were full of air????? One other thing don't know if you would agree flushing old systems can cause more harm than do good. Tend to treat each system on its merits and by the look of the rad valves a flush could dislodge the stuff thats preventing the valves leaking worse than they appear to be now.
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Totally agree though when Dusty said the water was flowing through the tank it had me concerned. This system was used in copper cylinders and the Elson tank type units (rectangular copper tank with hardboard cover the one with the single break tank inside). It worked on the principle of and bell type housing with the system feed pipe inside it it relied on air trapped in the top of the bell and water exchanged between the system and the domestic water. British Gas excluded them from the star plan servicing because of the corrosion problems, hence when Dusty stated the rads were full of air????? One other thing don't know if you would agree flushing old systems can cause more harm than do good. Tend to treat each system on its merits and by the look of the rad valves a flush could dislodge the stuff thats preventing the valves leaking worse than they appear to be now.
Yes Bob that can be quite true, especially with the old cast iron rad systems and to a lesser extent the modern steel ones. :y :y
However I always believe in doing a proper job or not at all, so if one of those radiators has any rust spots showing through, especially on the seams, I would always replace it anyway, as I would with any old valves especially in hard water areas such as mine. I would certainly recommend replacing Dusty's as they do appear to be showing their age by some leakage appearing.
Indeed in recent years I have ususally replaced the valves with thermastically controllable valves as I have found these ideal to control the climate in individual rooms. :y
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Pop into local DIY ask for "Radiator Bleed Key" :y
Bled ours about 2 years ago after having some work done. Just thinking now, where is the bleed key!
:-/