Omega Owners Forum

Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: JonArgraig on 02 October 2008, 20:34:17

Title: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: JonArgraig on 02 October 2008, 20:34:17
I really don't like having to do this, but I'm thinking I'm going to have to let one of my staff go, shame is that I know he's got a few problems in his personal life and he's really a nice guy.

I've sacked plenty of people in the past & its always been easy as they where often arseholes to boot. but this guy is not a bad bloke, just no good at the job.

I've offered him extra training, he turned it down

I made him take extra training, he was better for a week

I found him a place in a diffrent department, granted it was less wage but it would of been a sercure job as it fitted his skills fine. - He declined

Now its got to the point where we are having to carry him, and I can't cover his cock-ups any more, and the other department has filled there vacancy...


So how would you go about this ? I used to be a ruthless bastweard but this kinda getting to me, I know that once he's out of the building I wont have to see him, but still I feel I could of done more for him,
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: Gaffers on 02 October 2008, 20:37:54
you've done everything you can, he has declined every bit of help you have offered.  Even though he is a nice bloke you need to dislocate yourself and lay the facts out.  Logged dates and times of cock-ups are useful  :y

Good luck  ;)
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: Richie London on 02 October 2008, 20:38:18
i made my boss sack 2 in 1 night at b and q a couple of months ago, totally useless. it was either me or them, no sympathy for them  :y
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: theolodian on 02 October 2008, 20:43:14
Make sure that you're covered for the tribunal, it sounds like he just wants the payoff.  As for the rest of it, don't take it personally.  Not worth it.
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 02 October 2008, 20:44:18
Quote
I really don't like having to do this, but I'm thinking I'm going to have to let one of my staff go, shame is that I know he's got a few problems in his personal life and he's really a nice guy.

I've sacked plenty of people in the past & its always been easy as they where often arseholes to boot. but this guy is not a bad bloke, just no good at the job.

I've offered him extra training, he turned it down

I made him take extra training, he was better for a week

I found him a place in a diffrent department, granted it was less wage but it would of been a sercure job as it fitted his skills fine. - He declined

Now its got to the point where we are having to carry him, and I can't cover his cock-ups any more, and the other department has filled there vacancy...


So how would you go about this ? I used to be a ruthless bastweard but this kinda getting to me, I know that once he's out of the building I wont have to see him, but still I feel I could of done more for him,

Hate to say it, but it seems like you have bent over backwards for him.

Either give him a no holes bars bollocking once and for all, or switch off your feelings and do the job knowing you have given him every chance.

If his personal problems are bereavment or relationship failure, then do the former oprtion and tell him to use up some holiday time to sort his head out.

Either way He needs shake up or ship out. :-/
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: Golfbuddy on 02 October 2008, 20:59:20
I've dismissed many people over the years. The thing is, I never, ever feel bad about it. If someone has got to the stage that they warrant dismissal, they have brought it on themselves.

If someone's personal problems are affecting their ability to do their job, they are a liability that threatens the whole team. You only have to ask yourself how their colleagues feel who have to spend their time at work covering up for a substandard performer.
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 02 October 2008, 21:00:05
Quote
I really don't like having to do this, but I'm thinking I'm going to have to let one of my staff go, shame is that I know he's got a few problems in his personal life and he's really a nice guy.

I've sacked plenty of people in the past & its always been easy as they where often arseholes to boot. but this guy is not a bad bloke, just no good at the job.

I've offered him extra training, he turned it down

I made him take extra training, he was better for a week

I found him a place in a diffrent department, granted it was less wage but it would of been a sercure job as it fitted his skills fine. - He declined

Now its got to the point where we are having to carry him, and I can't cover his cock-ups any more, and the other department has filled there vacancy...


So how would you go about this ? I used to be a ruthless bastweard but this kinda getting to me, I know that once he's out of the building I wont have to see him, but still I feel I could of done more for him,

In my time as a senior manager, with 3,500 staff under my control I had to make many unpleasant decisions for the sake of the company, my division, my staff and also for the sake of mine own career!  I lost count how many had to depart from the companies employment by way of my action. ;)

You have done everything you can it would seem to try and rescue this guy from his doom.  It is commendable that you have tried the retraining approach which was always my favoured option, unless it was a question of integrity and I had to sack many for that including another field manager! :y

However, now I would suggest you fully implement, or finalize if that is applicable, your companies disciplinary proceedure.  This must be followed by the book, and if the employee does not finally respond to this he will have to have his employment terminated.  It is vital of course that throught this process you are not the person who act as judge, jury and executioner.  I do not know how big or small your company is, but it is important other, different, managers are used throughout each stage of the disciplinary process, and the employee is given every opportunity to ammend their ways.  By the sounds of it this has already started to happen. 8-) 8-)

If you follow these vital rules, if the case end up in front of an industrial tribunal your decisions to dismiss should be upheld.  I had to attend personally in excess of seven in my time as ex-employees appealed against my decisions, and not one case was successful. :D ;)

One things for sure in management today you cannot afford to take the soft option ever, ::) ::) if you value your team's viability and your own career.  You have to take the correct legal action as soon as possible. ;)
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: JonArgraig on 02 October 2008, 21:01:17
Quote
Make sure that you're covered for the tribunal, it sounds like he just wants the payoff.  As for the rest of it, don't take it personally.  Not worth it.


Agency staff... No rights with us, it's up to his company to re job him.

Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: Golfbuddy on 02 October 2008, 21:02:32
Quote
Quote
Make sure that you're covered for the tribunal, it sounds like he just wants the payoff.  As for the rest of it, don't take it personally.  Not worth it.


Agency staff... No rights with us, it's up to his company to re job him.


I would seriously check your facts on that one.  :y
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: JonArgraig on 02 October 2008, 21:03:55
Quote

In my time as a senior manager, with 3,500 staff under my control I had to make many unpleasant decisions for the sake of the company, my division, my staff and also for the sake of mine own career!  I lost count how many had to depart from the companies employment by way of my action. ;)

You have done everything you can it would seem to try and rescue this guy from his doom.  It is commendable that you have tried the retraining approach which was always my favoured option, unless it was a question of integrity and I had to sack many for that including another field manager! :y

However. now I would suggest you fully implement, or finalize if that is applicable, your companies disciplinary proceedure.  This must be followed by the book, and if the employee does not finally respond to this he will have to have his emploment terminated.  It is vital of course that throught this process you are not the person who act as judge, jury and executioner.  I do not know how big or small your company is, but it is important other, different, managers are used throughout each stage of the disciplinary process, and the employee is given every opportunity to ammend their ways.  By the sounds of it this has already started to happen. 8-) 8-)

If you follow these vital rules, if the case end up in front of an industrial tribunal your decisions to dismiss should be upheld.  I had to attend personally in excess of seven in my time as ex-employees appealed against my decisions, and not one case was successful. :D ;)

One things for sure in management today you cannot afford to take the soft option ever, ::) ::) if you value your team's viability and your own career.  You have to take the correct legal action as soon as possible. ;)


massive reach, medium sized staff - but mostly unheard of... I would guess most of us have our software in your home and don't know about  :y
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 02 October 2008, 21:04:13
Quote
Quote
Make sure that you're covered for the tribunal, it sounds like he just wants the payoff.  As for the rest of it, don't take it personally.  Not worth it.


Agency staff... No rights with us, it's up to his company to re job him.


Agency staff I believe have employment protection, so be careful! :y


Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: JonArgraig on 02 October 2008, 21:06:13
Quote
Quote
Quote
Make sure that you're covered for the tribunal, it sounds like he just wants the payoff.  As for the rest of it, don't take it personally.  Not worth it.


Agency staff... No rights with us, it's up to his company to re job him.


I would seriously check your facts on that one.  :y

Already called them...

besides, he's not been with us very long at all
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: Bandit127 on 02 October 2008, 21:09:58
The following assumes that you don't have a written disciplinary procedure... If you do, invoke it and follow it.

What you seemingly haven't done is sat him down for a formal chat and told him that if he doesn't shape up he may be shipped out. Tell him, in detail, what is expected and how he comes up short. And what the consequences MAY BE if he doesn't. Be prepared to explain how to get from B to A and entertain his request for support to do so if it is practical and fits in with business needs.

This is a formal chat and documented, copy in his record.

Give him a reasonable amount of time to shape up. This could be a week in a small, agile business to a couple of months in a bigger business.

If he hasn't changed his ways after this time, go straight for a final written warning. Make the consequences of his failure to adapt very clear. The warning stands for the same amount of time as the chat did.

If he still doesn't shape up, give him his concractural notice. Again, face to face and documented. You can send him home immediately (with time to collect belongings under supervision) but you must pay the notice.

Don't feel sorry for him.

Process him.

 

P.S. This may seem a bit tough to a lot of you, but most of you know just one or two people where you work that if they weren't there your workplace and the health of the business you work in would be greatly improved.
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: Golfbuddy on 02 October 2008, 21:12:23
Alternatively, tell everyone in the office to point and laugh everytime he walks through the door. He'll soon get the message and leave.

HTH  :y
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: JonArgraig on 02 October 2008, 21:16:04
Quote
The following assumes that you don't have a written disciplinary procedure... If you do, invoke it and follow it.

What you seemingly haven't done is sat him down for a formal chat and told him that if he doesn't shape up he may be shipped out. Tell him, in detail, what is expected and how he comes up short. And what the consequences MAY BE if he doesn't. Be prepared to explain how to get from B to A and entertain his request for support to do so if it is practical and fits in with business needs.

This is a formal chat and documented, copy in his record.

Give him a reasonable amount of time to shape up. This could be a week in a small, agile business to a couple of months in a bigger business.

If he hasn't changed his ways after this time, go straight for a final written warning. Make the consequences of his failure to adapt very clear. The warning stands for the same amount of time as the chat did.

If he still doesn't shape up, give him his concractural notice. Again, face to face and documented. You can send him home immediately (with time to collect belongings under supervision) but you must pay the notice.

Don't feel sorry for him.

Process him.

 

P.S. This may seem a bit tough to a lot of you, but most of you know just one or two people where you work that if they weren't there your workplace and the health of the business you work in would be greatly improved.

He's had the chat,

My self and the HR Rep sat him down and made it clear he had to step up his game or take the other job, failing that it was good night vienna.

He was placed on a 2 week review to step up, and it ends on Tuesday.

Oh well he's going one way or another. still feel a arse about it though - maybe I should of not made it a option moving to another department and just sent him.


Thanks for the imput guys
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: JonArgraig on 02 October 2008, 21:16:48
Quote
Alternatively, tell everyone in the office to point and laugh everytime he walks through the door. He'll soon get the message and leave.

HTH  :y

We do that for fun with the development team already...
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: amigov6 on 02 October 2008, 21:23:23
It would appear you've gone the whole 9 yards for this bloke so try not to feel bad about it. Being a truck driver it's not my place to hire & fire, but i worked at a small timberyard in my pre HGV days forklifting, doing the odd delivery in a 7.5 t bedford tk & dealing with some phone calls, answerable to management so i suppose i was a like a foreman. work picked up & i spent more time on the phone in my hut or on the road so they took on an assistant to help me out. He was a good lad, kept the yard clean, learned forklifting quickly (no tickets needed then).
     After 3 or 4 months an area gaffer called in resulting in my gaffer telling me to finish him....cost effective etc.
    I felt awful, he was visibly shaken & his hand was shaking as he handed me his yard keys back.
      First & last time. The management left me to do thier dirty work. :(
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: Bandit127 on 02 October 2008, 21:30:49
Previous post deleted as irrelevant, I seem to be 3 replies behind...

You have made it clear to him Jon and followed the process. That is fair.

Jon - you know he has to go and you need to reconcile that. If it helps, think what the rest of the team feel like with having his incompetence around. If he is that bad then it affects the health of the whole business.

Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: Chopsdad on 02 October 2008, 21:56:02
I've "let go" many people over the years - all for either incompetence or apathy.

Only 1 ever bothered me as she had a huge mortgage and I felt responsible for her future.

I had to remind myself, as you do, it's not your fault.

She came back in 6m later to see me to say thankyou, she now has a job she can do, she enjoys and gets paid more.

Don't sympathise, empathise.

He's clearly less bothered than you are so shake his hand and wish him well. ;)
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: pete.h on 02 October 2008, 23:42:28
There's a useful website , emplaw.co.uk , which has a lot of free info.

I used it when I had to sack someone for theft a few years back , which admittedly is esier than your case as long as there is proof.

You've got to watch problems such as "constructive dismissal" , where if an employees life at work is made unbearable , so that he feels he has to leave , it can count as unfair dismissal, where the compensation can get a bit serious.

The guy I sacked got "no win no fee" solicitors involved , even though he was obviously guilty , but it still dragged on for about 6 months , not much fun !!

Good luck
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: Danny on 02 October 2008, 23:56:43
never had to sack anyone but constantly had to tell one girl off for just being careless with her standard of work, she never took it to heart and barely improved, but was always cheerful

...and tasty!! oh if i could turn back time, punishment would have a whole new meaning!
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: Entwood on 02 October 2008, 23:59:03
Quote
never had to sack anyone but constantly had to tell one girl off for just being careless with her standard of work, she never took it to heart and barely improved, but was always cheerful

...and tasty!! oh if i could turn back time, punishment would have a whole new meaning!

mmm  is that punishment or sexual harassment !!!!!! (or bloody good fun !! )

PC brigade have muddied the water too far for this old brain   :(
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: omegaman2 on 03 October 2008, 17:36:37
i sacked the windy cleaner for ripping my pir light off the wall with his ladders >:(
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: Kevin Wood on 03 October 2008, 17:40:28
Quote
i sacked the windy cleaner for ripping my pir light off the wall with his ladders >:(

You should have kept hold of him. Our cleaner doesn't "DO" ladders any more. He stands on the ground and cleans them with a brush on the end of a ruddy great long pole. Apparently he has some special treated (read: softened) water that doesn't need soap either. Hasn't reduced his prices though, and the whites don't get cleaned at all now.

That reminds me. Meant to paint the window frames this summer. >:( Spent most of it pi$$ing around with the Omega instead. ::)

Kevin
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: Danny on 03 October 2008, 18:35:40
Quote
Quote
never had to sack anyone but constantly had to tell one girl off for just being careless with her standard of work, she never took it to heart and barely improved, but was always cheerful

...and tasty!! oh if i could turn back time, punishment would have a whole new meaning!

mmm  is that punishment or sexual harassment !!!!!! (or bloody good fun !! )

PC brigade have muddied the water too far for this old brain   :(

the latter ;)
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: chrisdb on 03 October 2008, 18:36:06
When I was younger I was ruthless and would have sacked someone no problem. Now I'm older I would find it harder to do.

Listen carefully about the advice as few people have given - my sister is a personnel manager and spends a lot of time at tribunals. Sometimes they loose cases where the evidence is so damning it makes you realise the world has gone mad.

Does this guy know that the sack is imminent? A really common thing for someone in that kind of position is to go long term sick with stress. Tread carefully and if you need to, get professional legal advice.

Good luck, hope it works out for all concerned.
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: miggy on 03 October 2008, 18:38:34
Quote
I really don't like having to do this, but I'm thinking I'm going to have to let one of my staff go, shame is that I know he's got a few problems in his personal life and he's really a nice guy.

I've sacked plenty of people in the past & its always been easy as they where often arseholes to boot. but this guy is not a bad bloke, just no good at the job.

I've offered him extra training, he turned it down

I made him take extra training, he was better for a week

I found him a place in a diffrent department, granted it was less wage but it would of been a sercure job as it fitted his skills fine. - He declined

Now its got to the point where we are having to carry him, and I can't cover his cock-ups any more, and the other department has filled there vacancy...


So how would you go about this ? I used to be a ruthless bastweard but this kinda getting to me, I know that once he's out of the building I wont have to see him, but still I feel I could of done more for him,

Unfortunatly you cannot help some people, you have bent over backwards for him, looks like you need to let him go and replace with someone who wants to work and learn. I do many appraisals and i have one or two who just dont want to know, unfortunatly you have a job to do also, and it is sometimes unplesant.
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: CaptainZok on 03 October 2008, 19:32:12
Quote
Quote
i sacked the windy cleaner for ripping my pir light off the wall with his ladders >:(

You should have kept hold of him. Our cleaner doesn't "DO" ladders any more. He stands on the ground and cleans them with a brush on the end of a ruddy great long pole. Apparently he has some special treated (read: softened) water that doesn't need soap either. Hasn't reduced his prices though, and the whites don't get cleaned at all now.

That reminds me. Meant to paint the window frames this summer. >:( Spent most of it pi$$ing around with the Omega instead. ::)

Kevin
When we get a summer you mean.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: CaptainZok on 03 October 2008, 19:41:47
Been on the opposite side of the fence many times defending colleagues in disciplinary situations. Some people seem to do their damndest to get into trouble even when the threat of dismissal is written in 10 foot high neon lettering.
It's never an easy situation when someones life is in your hands but it would seem that you've done your best to get this person into a job they are capable of doing all to no avail so make sure you've followed the legal proceedures to the letter and it can't come back to bite you.
If you need to do some more research on employment law let me know and I'll put you on to a site I use.
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: jereboam on 03 October 2008, 19:53:54
Quote
Quote
Make sure that you're covered for the tribunal, it sounds like he just wants the payoff.  As for the rest of it, don't take it personally.  Not worth it.


Agency staff... No rights with us, it's up to his company to re job him.


Sorry to come in on the end of this discussion, but surely if the guy is Agency staff, you can ask for him to be replaced because he is unsatisfactory.  It would then become the Agency's business to deal with.  

If he is not an employee of your company, I'm not sure that the Employment Tribunal could be involved.  I think that it is also unlikely that your company's Disciplinary procedures would apply to him.  

***Usual disclaimer - I'm not a lawyer - don't take my word for it!***
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: JonArgraig on 21 October 2008, 19:50:05
Just incase any one was interested a quick update...

I talked my Guv to let me give the guy till the end of the month, before we sacked him. he agreed

I took the guy to the pub after work and made it clear

"Unless there is a major change, your sacked - simple as, I've got you a repre of a couple of weeks... Even then I cant promiss you that we can keep you on..."

I pointed out what he had done, what we had done to try and help him and how his work was below the standed required.

This week he has the best performance stats we have seen on the team, I had to give writen warnings to all but the team for dicking around on the net, bar him.

And tonight my Guv has said that unless he cocks up this week, he can stay - but under caution so to speak

Really chuffed he pulled it back :)
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: Bandit127 on 21 October 2008, 19:56:36
Quote
Just incase any one was interested a quick update...

I talked my Guv to let me give the guy till the end of the month, before we sacked him. he agreed

I took the guy to the pub after work and made it clear

"Unless there is a major change, your sacked - simple as, I've got you a repre of a couple of weeks... Even then I cant promiss you that we can keep you on..."

I pointed out what he had done, what we had done to try and help him and how his work was below the standed required.

This week he has the best performance stats we have seen on the team, I had to give writen warnings to all but the team for dicking around on the net, bar him.

And tonight my Guv has said that unless he cocks up this week, he can stay - but under caution so to speak

Really chuffed he pulled it back :)
Well done Jon. Nicely sorted.

You knew it was in there to be picked out....
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: bertiecbx550 on 21 October 2008, 21:04:39
Can i come and work for you jon???? ;D ;D i promise i wont put you youtube when you fall off the segway.... ::) ::)
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 21 October 2008, 21:26:57
Nice one :y  Sometimes all it needs is a bit of straight talking.
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: JonArgraig on 21 October 2008, 21:32:29
Quote
Can i come and work for you jon???? ;D ;D i promise i wont put you youtube when you fall off the segway.... ::) ::)

Im not the Segway pilot!

But I do have jobs going...
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: chrisdb on 23 October 2008, 19:11:52
Well done mate! You should quite rightly feel very pleased with yourself - and flattered - he obviously made a freal effort because he was grateful and didn't want to let you down.

I reckon if you can find a way to motivate everyone else individually, you might get the same productivity improvements accross your team :y
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: JonArgraig on 23 October 2008, 19:16:30
Quote
Well done mate! You should quite rightly feel very pleased with yourself - and flattered - he obviously made a freal effort because he was grateful and didn't want to let you down.

I reckon if you can find a way to motivate everyone else individually, you might get the same productivity improvements accross your team :y

I've got a busy couple of weeks ahead of me, Got 2 new controllers to train, a team leader to train and my partner so to speak, Phil, he does the same as me on opposing shifts is off for a month...

I tell ya, it's like a bloody school yard
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: tmx on 23 October 2008, 19:22:25
just goes to show a quiet word in the ear can work wonders!!

ideal :y
Title: Re: Ever had to sack some one?
Post by: ARH1 on 23 October 2008, 21:08:08
Yep I had to offload, I did feel bad about it until I realised for every cock I covered up for them I had to take action or it would seem I was weak , the other staff would play on it and things would soon be out of control and then I would be the one getting sacked. Why put myself and my family in that position? This geezer may have have an agenda to be out of work and if dont want to be part of the team, give him his wish. but do it by the book m8
ARH1