Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Bandit127 on 04 December 2008, 19:31:55
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The keeping of innocent people's DNA has been ruled a violation of our human rights.
Good. In my opinion, this was never right and one of the areas that the government has exceeded it's authority.
Liberty Director Shami Chakrabarti said: "This is one of the most strongly worded judgements that Liberty has ever seen from the Court of Human Rights..."
From the beeb.
Clicky (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7764069.stm)
Result :y :y :y :y
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I agree completely. :y
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ID Cards next?
NIR Next?
Wacquy Jacquy next
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Yes ..a good result. :-* :-*
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I agree to a point. But I also think that if a child was murdered, and then the killer went on to commit further offences, and it turned out his DNA was on the database and deleted.............
As is usual in these things, it's a difficult balance to strike.
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I agree to a point. But I also think that if a child was murdered, and then the killer went on to commit further offences, and it turned out his DNA was on the database and deleted.............
As is usual in these things, it's a difficult balance to strike.
No, it is really easy. Arrested and released you should have the same rights as never arrested. Innocent until proven guilty, at least that is the ideal where I'm from (not that they get it right there either).
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I agree to a point. But I also think that if a child was murdered, and then the killer went on to commit further offences, and it turned out his DNA was on the database and deleted.............
As is usual in these things, it's a difficult balance to strike.
No, it is really easy. Arrested and released you should have the same rights as never arrested. Innocent until proven guilty, at least that is the ideal where I'm from (not that they get it right there either).
Hmmm....I was talking about your lot last night with reference to the arrest of MP Green.
I said that if they searched his office without a warrant in America, some smartass lawyer would take it to a judge and, as they say on 'Law and Order'..It's out!!! ;D
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Watch them try to squirm their way out of it. >:(
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I agree to a point. But I also think that if a child was murdered, and then the killer went on to commit further offences, and it turned out his DNA was on the database and deleted.............
As is usual in these things, it's a difficult balance to strike.
No, it is really easy. Arrested and released you should have the same rights as never arrested. Innocent until proven guilty, at least that is the ideal where I'm from (not that they get it right there either).
Hmmm....I was talking about your lot last night with reference to the arrest of MP Green.
I said that if they searched his office without a warrant in America, some smartass lawyer would take it to a judge and, as they say on 'Law and Order'..It's out!!! ;D
I think that reality does not quite match up to the TV shows. ::) :-[
Warrantless searches are a big no-no over there though, the whole case goes out the window! And people make sure to ask for a warrant. :o ;D
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When Gorbals Mick made his speech yesterday,he said that although he knew about the search of the offices in advance ,he didnt know that they didnt have a warrant.Apparently it didnt occur to him to ask . ::) ::) ::)
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I think we should all carry papers, and have speed limiters on our cars. The Government should run all news agencies to keep morale up and why bother with elections that no-one votes in anyway.
Human rights are highly overrated, as long as the cattle trucks roll nowhere near me thats okay.
I hope you all realise that my tongue is firmly in my cheek! ;)
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I believe EVERYONE should be on the DNA database from birth. No innocent person has anything to fear from such a database.
My DNA has been voluntarily on a database for over 20 years in case of a "military mishap".
If scrotes knew ... really, really, knew... that they had an exceedingly high risk of being identified by DNA, many would think twice about what they do.. for example .... it would instantly negate the "hoody" culture.
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And also instantly negate any pretence of a free society, its the lesser of two evils scenario imo.
The argument that the innocent have nothing to fear only stands up if the current and future governments are all perfect/honest well intentioned/trustworthy as they are the lawmakers,and as we all know their version of right/wrong innocent/guilty very often bears no relation to justice.
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I am a strong believer in the 'Aint done anything so aint got anything to worry about' train of thought
Things like this help to protect the innocent, so it is only the guilty that should be worried, and that to me, is what it is all about??
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The "Free Society" is a myth ... you are NOT free to murder, steal, park where you want, drive how you want etc etc etc ...
You are free to ACT WITHIN THE LAW - so the dna database places no restrictions on your behaviour at all, and does NOT make you any "less" free, It just means you have more chance of being caught should you break the law.
What is so wrong with that ?? unless you are a lawbreaker ???
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Who decides who is innocent though,Governments can and do decide that people who disagree with them are criminals and have them imprisoned .
would you trust this and every future government to only have laws which punish the obviously immoral criminal elements The freedom of the individual has historically and rightly been a very precious thing to the British.much blood has been spilt in the battle to preserve this right and we should never let ourselves s;eepwalk our way into the type of society were the level of freedom is deceided by the chancers and liars who inhabit westminster.
Rant over (again) ;)
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Trouble is there was over 100 murderers tracked down thanks to this data. Thats 100 less people who are likely to kill again on the streets.
Ken
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I'm with albitz. I wouldn't trust this or any other goverment with details of my DNA ....... whether innocent or not.
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Trouble is there was over 100 murderers tracked down thanks to this data. Thats 100 less people who are likely to kill again on the streets.
Ken
agreed. And it took many years for them to catch the murderer of Shirley Leach (local murder victim) who was stopped & arrested for a motoring offence. But I still don't want my DNA on a gov date base 'just in case'
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We will never know wether they would have been caught by other methods.But we do know from looking at various countries around the world in the last 50 years or so what happens when you let your politicians take your freedom away "in your best interests.
Of course people who are arrested for serious crimes should have DNA taken to prove guilt or eliminate them from enquiries,but people who are found innocent or not even taken to court should not have DNA and figerprints held forever on a government database in a free society.
rant over didnt last very long. :-[ ;D
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er, unlike Americans who are citizens of a country with a consitution we are subjects of the state, and are 'allowed' such freedoms as the state deems fit :(
My problem isn't with holding DNA records it's with the outsourced private sector profiteers who run the database, believe me, some little 2 rupee a week programmer in Mumbai misses a digit in a bit of SQL code and you could be having your collar felt....
Computer says ... it was you !!!, computers don't make mistakes... but humans do
Have you ever seen the movie Brazil ? ::)
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We will never know wether they would have been caught by other methods.But we do know from looking at various countries around the world in the last 50 years or so what happens when you let your politicians take your freedom away "in your best interests.
Of course people who are arrested for serious crimes should have DNA taken to prove guilt or eliminate them from enquiries,but people who are found innocent or not even taken to court should not have DNA and figerprints held forever on a government database in a free society.
rant over didnt last very long. :-[ ;D
Why not ?? You give them your address, telephone number, date of birth, they give you your NI number, Birth certificate, Tax code.
Banks, building societies, Post Office, Insurance, all have access to your credit records, you agree to passwords with numerous sites and businesses.
You can't get your own money without a card and PIN
But something that could actually HELP society, DNA & fingerprints, is rejected as "taking away freedom ?? "
b*****ks comes to mind .. :)
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trouble is they say a lot of innocent people are on the data base. Well its not so much proved innocent, its more the case was not water tight and I understand the CPS don't waste their time on minor cases or ones they might loose.
I agree the worry about the clowns in government misusing data is ever present, along with the wholly inadequate sentences handed out. Perhaps the whole system needs overhaul, from the judges to the prisons, to punishments. There have been words passed about the police recently; they can only do as well as they can with the tools at their disposal. If they're short of resources their service will be limited, as long as they have to do the mountain of paperwork for each case.
There are so many things we could do to improve things, how about pubs/clubs supplying buses for their clients. I think society needs a giant shake up, put some values back. Perhaps we could get Lizzie Zoom to write one of her essays on it !.
Ken
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Its a big step too far and imo it wont stop there.
And if I had my way I wouldnt have all the pin number stuff etc; but we are left with very little choice.
Actually pin numbers for bank cards are a good example,we were told that this would make it very difficult for the bad guys to steal our money etc; the reality has turned out to be that bank fraud is rampant and no one seems to be able to do much about it. Meanwhile every big organisation from Tescos to the Government hold loads of data on us by tracking what we do with our our numbers.
And, if anyone can look back over the last ten years and tell me that this government is in any way serious about tackling crime I will say that they are talking 'dangle berries'.
The only thing they are serious about is power for its own sake.
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trouble is they say a lot of innocent people are on the data base. Well its not so much proved innocent, its more the case was not water tight ........
So, what you are saying that if even you were taken to court for something & was proved innocent, the very fact you were in court means that you were probably a little bit guilty anyway ..... :-?
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trouble is they say a lot of innocent people are on the data base. Well its not so much proved innocent, its more the case was not water tight ........
So, what you are saying that if even you were taken to court for something & was proved innocent, the very fact you were in court means that you were probably a little bit guilty anyway ..... :-?
You dont even need to be taken to court,as things stand, anyone who is arrested has DNA and fingerprints taken and it is put on the government database and kept for life
We are the only country in Europe who does this afaik and yet we almost certainly have the worst crimerecord (and rising) so it isnt working.
there always have been and always will be people who commit serious crime and are clever enough to get away with it.
It may be more to do with the fact that quite a few prominent new labour figures were card carrying members of the communist party before they discovered Savile Row tailors.
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No, what I am saying is some people who appeared guilty were never taken to court because there was a small bit of doubt. The police seem reticent to pursue some actions because you don't have cast iron proof of the culprit. If there was a spate of burglaries with evidence of tools being used, and they caught someone with a boot full of tools it would look suspicious. However if he were a builder by trade, and there was no stolen stuff in his car they couldn't do anything. The fact that the stolen stuff was in his mates car, if they couldn't link the 2 there would be no case, and the old money question would happen, if the value of goods nicked was below a certain value, it would cost too much to persue the case beyond a certain level, so it would be dropped.
Thats life, currently.
Ken
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The DNA record is not a complete listing but a checksum - the checksum is NOT unique.
It is being polluted with people who should not be on it.
It is getting more work to find the guilty from it.
DNA can be planted as well - there is a campaign to do this with Wacquie Jacquie.
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Another thing
You go on the DB unworried.
You have a slightly odd hobby - lets say photography.
Goverment bans it.
Do you carry on?
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Or being interested in old cars which dont hug many trees. ::) :D
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Having read through the posts on this subject, one thing becomes patently clear.
We share our secrets with friends, for we trust them. We do not share our secrets with those we do not trust.
There is no doubt that DNA sampling is a boon for the detection of crime. BUT, and this is a very big BUT, we no longer as a society have any trust in either the government or, it saddens me to say, the police. :(
Therefore, it is no wonder that the majority reject the idea of a universal DNA database.
Bring back honest government and a non-politicised police force and I would suggest that there would be wide support for such a database.
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Agree, although I seriously doubt an honest government and a un-politicised police force would be pushing for a national DNA database. :y
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I can see the objections, as Martin says if they start recording hobbies and defining certain ones as strange (servicing your own car strange, building your own car very strange!) . Before you know it you have 1984, a bit late but....
But what is the alternative ?. How many crooks, murderers have been put away thanks to DNA work ?. Until you come up with a better system I think we have to use what we got.
I think we are only starting to come to terms with the amazing power that technology can give us. The ability to shift dosh around, record months of video, data, people's actions, and amend it, would give any self respecting meglomaniac dreams of world domination. Trouble is when you look at the people controlling all this, and their actions in the houses of parliament, you think..........
Ken
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Having read through the posts on this subject, one thing becomes patently clear.
We share our secrets with friends, for we trust them. We do not share our secrets with those we do not trust.
There is no doubt that DNA sampling is a boon for the detection of crime. BUT, and this is a very big BUT, we no longer as a society have any trust in either the government or, it saddens me to say, the police. :(
Therefore, it is no wonder that the majority reject the idea of a universal DNA database.
Bring back honest government and a non-politicised police force and I would suggest that there would be wide support for such a database.
Yes great idea, but where do we get one of those ?. Every politician has his/her agenda, and you need some control/influence over the police force.
If we could improve values in our society, make working for a living fashionable again, then crime would hopefully decrease and we wouldn't need a database. Or am I living in pipe dream land again ?.
Ken
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and you need some control/influence over the police force.
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US style ellected po-lis chief? :-/
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and you need some control/influence over the police force.
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US style ellected po-lis chief? :-/
Andy B's got a point. The police and armed forces are, I thought, ultimately answerable ONLY to HM the Queen, not to any political administration. Thus, in theory, we should never fall into a state of dictatorship (e.g. if a government passes a law to give itself an unending term of office, the Queen could theoretically say "No"). Have I got that constitutionally correct?
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I can see the objections, as Martin says if they start recording hobbies and defining certain ones as strange (servicing your own car strange, building your own car very strange!) . Before you know it you have 1984, a bit late but....
But what is the alternative ?. How many crooks, murderers have been put away thanks to DNA work ?. Until you come up with a better system I think we have to use what we got.
I think we are only starting to come to terms with the amazing power that technology can give us. The ability to shift dosh around, record months of video, data, people's actions, and amend it, would give any self respecting meglomaniac dreams of world domination. Trouble is when you look at the people controlling all this, and their actions in the houses of parliament, you think..........
Ken
Very likely to be criminalised :o
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Yes, but when's the last time HM told Gorden he was making a mess and its was time to leave ?.
Isn't it time this country updated its method of government ?. The Queen still goes to open parliament, and that chap still has to bang on the door. Haven't they heard of electric door bells?.
Ken
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Yes, but when's the last time HM told Gorden he was making a mess and its was time to leave ?.
Isn't it time this country updated its method of government ?. The Queen still goes to open parliament, and that chap still has to bang on the door. Haven't they heard of electric door bells?.
Ken
Isn't that "cold calling". Whoops, wrong thread!! ;D ;D ;D
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Yes, but when's the last time HM told Gorden he was making a mess and its was time to leave ?.
Isn't it time this country updated its method of government ?. The Queen still goes to open parliament, and that chap still has to bang on the door. Haven't they heard of electric door bells?.
Ken
Isn't that "cold calling". Whoops, wrong thread!! ;D ;D ;D
::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D :y
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Double glazing anyone ? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Ken
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Can anyone clarify this forum - i thought it was Omega Owners NOT the Daily Mail Sheeple coral :( >:( :o
"think of the children" wail of the desperate
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constructive thoughtful debate always welcome. ::) ::) ::)
Just read on the BBC website "A dissident comedian serving a 59 year jail sentence in Burma has been moved to a remote prison"
This is what can happen when freedom and the democratic checks and balances of a free society are eroded,which is why it is good to be suspicious of the intentions of leaders, rather than just trust their judgement.We may be a long way from this,but we are also a long way from where we were 30 or 40 years ago,somewhere in between imo.
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Can anyone clarify this forum - i thought it was Omega Owners NOT the Daily Mail Sheeple coral :( >:( :o
"think of the children" wail of the desperate
You're now in 'general chat'! Tha can discuss owt tha wants t' 'ere .... ;)
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Freedom of speech and all that. :y
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Freedom of speech and all that. :y
:y :y :y :y :y
(int that wor I said? :-/ ;D ;D)
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Yep,just offering moral support. :y ;D
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reading this has made me think [thats a first!], the thing is i had a DNA test done at my house as they were looking for a murderer, as i owned a blue sierra at the time & that is apparently what the suspect was driving i was tested, the thing is is there anyway i can find out if my DNA has been kept or not?, it was quite a while ago [perhaps 5 years] so dont know if it was before this government or police lot got power crazy, so i would like to know if they have kept it or not.,,,,,,,oh & it wasnt me ;D [but was guilty of driving a crap car ;D]
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reading this has made me think [thats a first!], the thing is i had a DNA test done at my house as they were looking for a murderer, as i owned a blue sierra at the time & that is apparently what the suspect was driving i was tested, the thing is is there anyway i can find out if my DNA has been kept or not?, it was quite a while ago [perhaps 5 years] so dont know if it was before this government or police lot got power crazy, so i would like to know if they have kept it or not.,,,,,,,oh & it wasnt me ;D [but was guilty of driving a crap car ;D]
chances are it was keep :(
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I would have thought it would have been kept,not sure how you find out though, CAB ? :-/
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luckily my sister-in-law works for CAB so perhaps she`ll know, i never thought of that! derrrrr ;D