Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Lizzie_Zoom on 04 January 2009, 13:13:45
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This is one heavy subject, with many interpretations on the history involved, along with the rights and wrongs on both sides.
But do you believe Israel are justified to launch their land offensive today? :-?
Do we care? :-?
I have added a poll to gauge popular public opinion on the oof to aid my political studies.
Thanks! ;) ;)
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Poll Question: Do you believe Israel is justified to launch a land offensive today?
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Apart from all the unecesary death what I find really hard to stomach is the totally ineffectual UN. Once again they have met (no doubt at great expense) and failed to agree on a STATEMENT. What chance of a agreeing a resolution.
There is little hope for world peace and stability with such a toothless body. Perhaps if the UN met in this instance in a building in the Gaza strip they would be more effective. Just my tuppence.
varche
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More important is that it won't do any good. It will only inflame the situation.
I often come into contact with Israelis in my line of work. To me their natural characteristic coems across as one of aggression. It applies whether in business or talking about the security situation. You hear it from Israeli polititions as well. They actually think force will resolve Israel's security problem.
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Voted dont care. Even if I did my voicing an opinion would not be listed to and they would still do thier own thing.
I vote for the Wombles to over throw the government. :y
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Bad news for us though as it's pushing up the price of oil again :o
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None of our business, and as usual religion is the root cause. Same as Iraq / Afghanistan, let them get on with it, we have enough problems of our own.
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None of our business, and as usual religion is the root cause. Same as Iraq / Afghanistan, let them get on with it, we have enough problems of our own.
It's not religion, it's land. Religion is the excuse and the way to motivate extremism, but the underlying issue is land.
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[soapbox mode = ON]
What annoys me is the blatant hypocrisy of the so called "free press" ... all these reports/film/protests about what is happening to the folks in Gaza .. and insistence that the Israeli stop instantly .... but not a single report about the damage the rockets do, or a protest at Hamas firing rockets indiscriminately.
Why is it OK for Hamas to attack Israel ???
The politicians say Israel should compromise .... how do you compromise with someone who wants to kill you ??
"Ah Mr Arab, its OK .. just kill half of us this year and the other half next ??? " is that a good enough compromise ???
[soapbox mode = OFF]
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Yes you are right Lizzie the Israel/Palestine conflict is not an easy subject to approach.
There is no black and white....right or wrong....good or evil....the whole thing is really an ambiguous grey area.
But if I were to have my opinion............I would say that Israel is far more sinner than sinned against............In my opinion Israel should not be any where near Gaza or any other part of Palestine for that matter, it is not their land and they have occupied it illegally since 1967............with the consent of the USA.
Israel is a Super Power with I believe the 5th most powerful army in the world.....Palestine on the other hand has no air force.........no army........and just a few stone age rockets which they use in an effort to protect what is in my opinion rightfully theirs.
Also............we must remember that Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinian people......if the Americans do not like that then ........bad luck..........that is what democracy is.
Also the Israeli response is not proportional..........with approximately 1 Jewish death to every 1000 Arab deaths due to the overwhelming military power of a Super Power such as Israel against a poor, virtually undefended stone age country such as Palestine.
What I would like to see is far more condemnation of Israeli bully boy tactics by world leaders...........Foreign Secretary David Miliband has asked for an immediate cease fire, I think he should go further and unreservedly condemn Israeli actions.........On Sky news last night Tony Benn described the Israeli actions as "War Crimes"..........I agree.
I believe that the country of Israel should be allowed to exist.......in peace...............but a lot of the problems they encounter seem to be of their own making.
In summary............Israel more sinner than sinned against.
I think it is a cynical move that Israel have started this invasion while the cretinous George W Bush is still at the helm.
They may be aware that Obama may not be quite as willing to go along with similar Israeli actions.
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Yes you are right Lizzie the Israel/Palestine conflict is not an easy subject to approach.
There is no black and white....right or wrong....good or evil....the whole thing is really an ambiguous grey area.
But if I were to have my opinion............I would say that Israel is far more sinner than sinned against............In my opinion Israel should not be any where near Gaza or any other part of Palestine for that matter, it is not their land and they have occupied it illegally since 1967............with the consent of the USA.
Israel is a Super Power with I believe the 5th most powerful army in the world.....Palestine on the other hand has no air force.........no army........and just a few stone age rockets which they use in an effort to protect what is in my opinion rightfully theirs.
Also............we must remember that Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinian people......if the Americans do not like that then ........bad luck..........that is what democracy is.
Also the Israeli response is not proportional..........with approximately 1 Jewish death to every 1000 Arab deaths due to the overwhelming military power of a Super Power such as Israel against a poor, virtually undefended stone age country such as Palestine.
What I would like to see is far more condemnation of Israeli bully boy tactics by world leaders...........Foreign Secretary David Miliband has asked for an immediate cease fire, I think he should go further and unreservedly condemn Israeli actions.........On Sky news last night Tony Benn described the Israeli actions as "War Crimes"..........I agree.
I believe that the country of Israel should be allowed to exist.......in peace...............but a lot of the problems they encounter seem to be of their own making.
In summary............Israel more sinner than sinned against.
I think it is a cynical move that Israel have started this invasion while the cretinous George W Bush is still at the helm.
They may be aware that Obama may not be quite as willing to go along with similar Israeli actions.
Ah yes, the armchair experts on righteousness speak. ::)
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None of our business, and as usual religion is the root cause. Same as Iraq / Afghanistan, let them get on with it, we have enough problems of our own.
It's not religion, it's land. Religion is the excuse and the way to motivate extremism, but the underlying issue is land.
If it's not religion then what's so special about the land :-? Is it rich in some mineral?
I suspect it's down to our religion is better than yours & so we're gona kill you beause of it.
Stick your religion up your arse as far as i'm concerned, it causes more shit :( :( :(
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None of our business, and as usual religion is the root cause. Same as Iraq / Afghanistan, let them get on with it, we have enough problems of our own.
It's not religion, it's land. Religion is the excuse and the way to motivate extremism, but the underlying issue is land.
If it's not religion then what's so special about the land :-? Is it rich in some mineral?
I suspect it's down to our religion is better than yours & so we're gona kill you beause of it.
Stick your religion up your arse as far as i'm concerned, it causes more shit :( :( :(
I prefer the phrase "my imaginary friend is better that your's"
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It is land
Palestinian land stolen & given to Israel by the UK & US in 1947
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It is land
Palestinian land stolen & given to Israel by the UK & US in 1947
A nicely blinkered statement.
The Land of Israel, known in Hebrew as Eretz Yisrael, has been sacred to the Jewish people since Biblical times. According to the Torah, the Land of Israel was promised to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, by God, as their homeland; scholars have placed this period in the early 2nd millennium BCE. According to the traditional view, around the 11th century BCE, the first of a series of Israelite kingdoms and states established rule over the region; these Israelite kingdoms and states ruled intermittently for the following one thousand years. The sites holiest to Judaism are located within Israel.
Between the time of the Israelite kingdoms and the 7th-century Muslim conquests, the Land of Israel fell under Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Sassanian, and Byzantine rule. Jewish presence in the region dwindled after the failure of the Bar Kokhba revolt against the Roman Empire in 132 CE and the resultant large-scale expulsion of Jews. In 628/9, the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius conducted a massacre and expulsion of the Jews, at which point the Jewish population probably reached its lowest point. Nevertheless, a continuous Jewish presence in the Land of Israel remained. Although the main Jewish population shifted from the Judea region to the Galilee, the Mishnah and part of the Talmud, among Judaism's most important religious texts, were composed in Israel during this period. The Land of Israel was captured from the Byzantine Empire around 636 CE during the initial Muslim conquests. Control of the region transferred between the Umayyads, Abbasids, and Crusaders over the next six centuries, before falling in the hands of the Mamluk Sultanate, in 1260. In 1516, the Land of Israel became a part of the Ottoman Empire, which ruled the region until the 20th century.
But then again History means little to a closed mind. If memory serves, the "Palestine" as an area ... actually includes Israel .. in the geographic sense. It is only in recent times that the word has been linked to an attempt to form a "nation"
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I've tried to care...I really have.....
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Its far too complex a subject for a straight yes/no.
Ultimately, religion plays a big part, or at least the excuse of religion.
If you get largely religious populous adjacent to another, different, religious populous, there will be conflict. A lot of which may be about disputed land that was been won and lost so many times over the centuries, its impossible to say where the border should be.
Jewish Israel/Muslim Palestine
Muslim Pakistan/Hindu India
The whole bulcans problem
Africa
Historically - greeks v romans, egyptians V hitites etc
Thats before we mention the crusades - in effect, Christian terrorists conquering the middle east....
So, if you could draw a recent line, then the Palestinians are wrong to fire rockets into Israel. But this conflict goes back centuries, and so impossible to draw any lines without dialogue, and that isn't going to happen with the current Israelli and Hamas governments.
Remember what a breakthrough Northern Island was, and how surprising it was? That was a much simpler situation...
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Bad news for us though as it's pushing up the price of oil again :o
bingo..their #1 aim despite the facts they stated.. :y
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None of our business, and as usual religion is the root cause. Same as Iraq / Afghanistan, let them get on with it, we have enough problems of our own.
It's not religion, it's land. Religion is the excuse and the way to motivate extremism, but the underlying issue is land.
agreed #2 reason.. :y
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[soapbox mode = ON]
What annoys me is the blatant hypocrisy of the so called "free press" ... all these reports/film/protests about what is happening to the folks in Gaza .. and insistence that the Israeli stop instantly .... but not a single report about the damage the rockets do, or a protest at Hamas firing rockets indiscriminately.
Why is it OK for Hamas to attack Israel ???
The politicians say Israel should compromise .... how do you compromise with someone who wants to kill you ??
"Ah Mr Arab, its OK .. just kill half of us this year and the other half next ??? " is that a good enough compromise ???
[soapbox mode = OFF]
Hamas , though I never accept their behaviours, is the result of Israels long lasting violent behaviours..The main fight subject is land true but its been many years Palestinians live on those lands before they buy some and invade the remaining areas..
And now Palestinians are squeezed to the last breath..forced to live without any warmth , no water no food no doctor no electricity..
>:( >:(
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Yes you are right Lizzie the Israel/Palestine conflict is not an easy subject to approach.
There is no black and white....right or wrong....good or evil....the whole thing is really an ambiguous grey area.
But if I were to have my opinion............I would say that Israel is far more sinner than sinned against............In my opinion Israel should not be any where near Gaza or any other part of Palestine for that matter, it is not their land and they have occupied it illegally since 1967............with the consent of the USA.
Israel is a Super Power with I believe the 5th most powerful army in the world.....Palestine on the other hand has no air force.........no army........and just a few stone age rockets which they use in an effort to protect what is in my opinion rightfully theirs.
Also............we must remember that Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinian people......if the Americans do not like that then ........bad luck..........that is what democracy is.
Also the Israeli response is not proportional..........with approximately 1 Jewish death to every 1000 Arab deaths due to the overwhelming military power of a Super Power such as Israel against a poor, virtually undefended stone age country such as Palestine.What I would like to see is far more condemnation of Israeli bully boy tactics by world leaders...........Foreign Secretary David Miliband has asked for an immediate cease fire, I think he should go further and unreservedly condemn Israeli actions.........On Sky news last night Tony Benn described the Israeli actions as "War Crimes"..........I agree.
I believe that the country of Israel should be allowed to exist.......in peace...............but a lot of the problems they encounter seem to be of their own making.
In summary............Israel more sinner than sinned against.
I think it is a cynical move that Israel have started this invasion while the cretinous George W Bush is still at the helm.They may be aware that Obama may not be quite as willing to go along with similar Israeli actions.
couldnt say better.. :y
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Its far too complex a subject for a straight yes/no.
Ultimately, religion plays a big part, or at least the excuse of religion.
If you get largely religious populous adjacent to another, different, religious populous, there will be conflict. A lot of which may be about disputed land that was been won and lost so many times over the centuries, its impossible to say where the border should be.
Jewish Israel/Muslim Palestine
Muslim Pakistan/Hindu India
The whole bulcans problem
Africa
Historically - greeks v romans, egyptians V hitites etc
Thats before we mention the crusades - in effect, Christian terrorists conquering the middle east....
So, if you could draw a recent line, then the Palestinians are wrong to fire rockets into Israel. But this conflict goes back centuries, and so impossible to draw any lines without dialogue, and that isn't going to happen with the current Israelli and Hamas governments.
Remember what a breakthrough Northern Island was, and how surprising it was? That was a much simpler situation...
Actually its not a religion problem..But now Hamas started using it because its a powerful tool to be elected..
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It is land
Palestinian land stolen & given to Israel by the UK & US in 1947
A nicely blinkered statement.
The Land of Israel, known in Hebrew as Eretz Yisrael, has been sacred to the Jewish people since Biblical times. According to the Torah, the Land of Israel was promised to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, by God, as their homeland; scholars have placed this period in the early 2nd millennium BCE. According to the traditional view, around the 11th century BCE, the first of a series of Israelite kingdoms and states established rule over the region; these Israelite kingdoms and states ruled intermittently for the following one thousand years. The sites holiest to Judaism are located within Israel.
Between the time of the Israelite kingdoms and the 7th-century Muslim conquests, the Land of Israel fell under Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Sassanian, and Byzantine rule. Jewish presence in the region dwindled after the failure of the Bar Kokhba revolt against the Roman Empire in 132 CE and the resultant large-scale expulsion of Jews. In 628/9, the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius conducted a massacre and expulsion of the Jews, at which point the Jewish population probably reached its lowest point. Nevertheless, a continuous Jewish presence in the Land of Israel remained. Although the main Jewish population shifted from the Judea region to the Galilee, the Mishnah and part of the Talmud, among Judaism's most important religious texts, were composed in Israel during this period. The Land of Israel was captured from the Byzantine Empire around 636 CE during the initial Muslim conquests. Control of the region transferred between the Umayyads, Abbasids, and Crusaders over the next six centuries, before falling in the hands of the Mamluk Sultanate, in 1260. In 1516, the Land of Israel became a part of the Ottoman Empire, which ruled the region until the 20th century.
But then again History means little to a closed mind. If memory serves, the "Palestine" as an area ... actually includes Israel .. in the geographic sense. It is only in recent times that the word has been linked to an attempt to form a "nation"
Although i have no time for religon - I must object to the use of these PC acronyms
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Its far too complex a subject for a straight yes/no.
Ultimately, religion plays a big part, or at least the excuse of religion.
If you get largely religious populous adjacent to another, different, religious populous, there will be conflict. A lot of which may be about disputed land that was been won and lost so many times over the centuries, its impossible to say where the border should be.
Jewish Israel/Muslim Palestine
Muslim Pakistan/Hindu India
The whole bulcans problem
Africa
Historically - greeks v romans, egyptians V hitites etc
Thats before we mention the crusades - in effect, Christian terrorists conquering the middle east....
So, if you could draw a recent line, then the Palestinians are wrong to fire rockets into Israel. But this conflict goes back centuries, and so impossible to draw any lines without dialogue, and that isn't going to happen with the current Israelli and Hamas governments.
Remember what a breakthrough Northern Island was, and how surprising it was? That was a much simpler situation...
Actually its not a religion problem..But now Hamas started using it because its a powerful tool to be elected..
hence 'excuse of religion'
To say it was purely regilious, and cliches like religion is root of all evil, would be far too simplistic. But getting people to fight in the name of their gods is a powerful tool.
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Israelis have a long relation with oil companies since Rothschild..
They are probably one of the strongest 12 families ruling the world.. >:(
if you want proof just google it..
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Israelis have a long relation with oil companies since Rothschild..
They are probably one of the strongest 12 families ruling the world.. >:(
if you want proof just google it..
Loads of ex-Rothschild houses around where I live - Waddesdon Manor, Halton House, Hughendon Manor (think thats Rothschild)... ...they weren't short of a penny when they built them (all National Trust now, except Halton House which is RAF)
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Its far too complex a subject for a straight yes/no.
Ultimately, religion plays a big part, or at least the excuse of religion.
If you get largely religious populous adjacent to another, different, religious populous, there will be conflict. A lot of which may be about disputed land that was been won and lost so many times over the centuries, its impossible to say where the border should be.
Jewish Israel/Muslim Palestine
Muslim Pakistan/Hindu India
The whole bulcans problem
Africa
Historically - greeks v romans, egyptians V hitites etc
Thats before we mention the crusades - in effect, Christian terrorists conquering the middle east....
So, if you could draw a recent line, then the Palestinians are wrong to fire rockets into Israel. But this conflict goes back centuries, and so impossible to draw any lines without dialogue, and that isn't going to happen with the current Israelli and Hamas governments.
Remember what a breakthrough Northern Island was, and how surprising it was? That was a much simpler situation...
Actually its not a religion problem..But now Hamas started using it because its a powerful tool to be elected..
hence 'excuse of religion'
To say it was purely regilious, and cliches like religion is root of all evil, would be far too simplistic. But getting people to fight in the name of their gods is a powerful tool.
Here's my view:
TB's right, there is no easy yes/no. It's not all about religion as such, though. It's about cultures. Of course, such cultures are often easily characterised by religion since most states have an "official" mainstream religion. Mankind has always had a herd instinct. From local football club supporters clubs right up to state nationalist parties, there is a human need to belong to and be indentified with, a larger group. These groups often become fanatical and see any perceived danger to their group as a danger to themselves and their families. So it is around the world, whether in the Middle East, the former USSR, the Balkans, or wherever.
Currently, the Israelis see the rhetoric about wiping the state of Israel off the map, from Iran and Hamas, coupled with thousands of rocket attacks as a threat to their "club". The Palestinians see the ever present Israeli military and restrictions on their movement as a threat to their "club". Whipped up by their own media outlets and politicians, they end up having a fight, with many of those involved just being unwitting fodder.
It may seem odd to compare the behaviour of violent football supporters with the behaviour of nation states, but there is much in common, in my view.
Incidentally, for those who always blame religion, it should be noted that atheism itself is a religion, since it follows a dogma which is intolerant of others and to which any challenge is fiercely resisted. :(
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Incidentally, for those who always blame religion, it should be noted that atheism itself is a religion, since it follows a dogma which is intolerant of others and to which any challenge is fiercely resisted. :(
Is there a religion for people who do not believe in heavenly gods, but really don't care what others wish to worship?
Apart from my Patron Saint, St Ella, from Leuven in Belgium....
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How spooky, I'm reading this thread with my entire music collection on random play. Simple Minds Belfast Child just came on
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Incidentally, for those who always blame religion, it should be noted that atheism itself is a religion, since it follows a dogma which is intolerant of others and to which any challenge is fiercely resisted. :(
Is there a religion for people who do not believe in heavenly gods, but really don't care what others wish to worship?
Apart from my Patron Saint, St Ella, from Leuven in Belgium....
Yep, it's called TB-ism. Apparently, in that religion, you can be canonised for:
1) sacrificing one's caravan on a flaming pyre
and?......
;D ;D
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Israelis have a long relation with oil companies since Rothschild..
They are probably one of the strongest 12 families ruling the world.. >:(
if you want proof just google it..
Loads of ex-Rothschild houses around where I live - Waddesdon Manor, Halton House, Hughendon Manor (think thats Rothschild)... ...they weren't short of a penny when they built them (all National Trust now, except Halton House which is RAF)
In history this family earn too much money over British blood :-X
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Incidentally, for those who always blame religion, it should be noted that atheism itself is a religion, since it follows a dogma which is intolerant of others and to which any challenge is fiercely resisted. :(
Is there a religion for people who do not believe in heavenly gods, but really don't care what others wish to worship?
Apart from my Patron Saint, St Ella, from Leuven in Belgium....
Yep, it's called TB-ism. Apparently, in that religion, you can be canonised for:
1) sacrificing one's caravan on a flaming pyre
and?......
;D ;D
Buying me Stella Artois...
Avoiding Sony...
Not being afraid to call anything with blue LEDs gay...
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It is land
Palestinian land stolen & given to Israel by the UK & US in 1947
A nicely blinkered statement.
The Land of Israel, known in Hebrew as Eretz Yisrael, has been sacred to the Jewish people since Biblical times. According to the Torah, the Land of Israel was promised to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, by God, as their homeland; scholars have placed this period in the early 2nd millennium BCE. According to the traditional view, around the 11th century BCE, the first of a series of Israelite kingdoms and states established rule over the region; these Israelite kingdoms and states ruled intermittently for the following one thousand years. The sites holiest to Judaism are located within Israel.
Between the time of the Israelite kingdoms and the 7th-century Muslim conquests, the Land of Israel fell under Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Sassanian, and Byzantine rule. Jewish presence in the region dwindled after the failure of the Bar Kokhba revolt against the Roman Empire in 132 CE and the resultant large-scale expulsion of Jews. In 628/9, the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius conducted a massacre and expulsion of the Jews, at which point the Jewish population probably reached its lowest point. Nevertheless, a continuous Jewish presence in the Land of Israel remained. Although the main Jewish population shifted from the Judea region to the Galilee, the Mishnah and part of the Talmud, among Judaism's most important religious texts, were composed in Israel during this period. The Land of Israel was captured from the Byzantine Empire around 636 CE during the initial Muslim conquests. Control of the region transferred between the Umayyads, Abbasids, and Crusaders over the next six centuries, before falling in the hands of the Mamluk Sultanate, in 1260. In 1516, the Land of Israel became a part of the Ottoman Empire, which ruled the region until the 20th century.
But then again History means little to a closed mind. If memory serves, the "Palestine" as an area ... actually includes Israel .. in the geographic sense. It is only in recent times that the word has been linked to an attempt to form a "nation"
Although i have no time for religon - I must object to the use of these PC acronyms
Someone will have to enlighten me with what they mean :-[. I've only come across BC & AD :y
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This might help....
http://www.globalissues.org/article/119/the-middle-east-conflict-a-brief-background
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Voted dont care. Even if I did my voicing an opinion would not be listed to and they would still do their own thing.
I vote for the Wombles to over throw the government. :y
Little know fact...the Wombles are in fact and Elite band of assassins....hired out too the highest bidder. ;)
The litter picking and general bumbling around is all a front. :y
Well if Gaza has been invaded i hope he fights back better than he played football. :-?
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its the rather romans, they built the rds. if there was no rds you wouldnt know where to go. so they couldnt do a land assault as they wouldnt know how to get there. :y :y
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isreali president"no country on earth would tolerate 90 rockets a day"
No country would tolerate even one. An act of war in anyones language. Seems to me Hamas has the response it has been working for...the response it must have craved, what else did they think would happen. And still the rockets are launched.
Regardless, put yourself in Isreals position, how would you respond to even one rocket attack, never mind 90? I am suprised Gaza has not been leveled tbh. I dont buy the innocent by stander bs either. Millitary targets deliberately placed in built up areas, and those living there allow it, and support/hide hamas safe houses, hamas is a terrorist organisation, which i may add is embroiled in turmoil and in fighting. I dont see the palastinian point of view to the level of breaking laws and human rights, once a person/organisation crosses that line, they have lost in my eyes.
And now, as i sit here, reports of hamas leaders hiding in hospital basements, a fine upstanding organisation...ffs.
On the other hand, i know little of the history or the area. The people though, on both sides, away from their homeland, are a right pain in the arse to deal with, little wonder they are at each others throats. They would find something to fight about, even alone in an empty house.
From what i see, i agree with Entwood.
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You launch rockets, you get retaliation.
If they had any sense, they would not have fired them off.
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I see this as a straight black and white issue. Someone in Gaza is shooting at the Israelis, and won't stop. Israel has every right to go in there and stop them by any means whatsoever. There is no question of proportionality - if Israel doesn't react, and its citizens get killed, would the word complain about the Palestinians disproportionate tactics?
The question of whether or not Israel has a right to exist is a different matter. Despite having been brought up in the Jewish community in London, I have always been deeply opposed to Zionism, and I do not believe that because the Jews lived in that land two or three thousand years ago, the major powers had the right to expel the people who were living there 60 years ago.
In 1967, along with many of my friends, I seriously thought about flying off to Israel to see if we could help in the Six Day War. We didn't go, because we ultimately came to the conclusion that we really didn't know which side we'd be on.
But in 2009, it's quite clear to me - wipe out the bastards who are doing the shooting, and if the civilian population surrounding the militants won't control them, then they have no right to complain if they get hurt in the fighting.
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Problem is, long years before those rockets Israel invade their land..
Killing many children and women..
Still cant forget many years ago, Israel soldiers shooting childrens who throw them stones
there is no excuse for that..
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and look what they are using..
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x80/mecdv6/bm.jpg)
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Problem is, long years before those rockets Israel invade their land..
Sorry for taking just one part of your post.
The counter argument to that is that the formation of Palestine was an invasion of Jewish lands. Unless the history can be put aside, there will never be peace there...
That land has belonged to so many different peoples that nobody/everybody has a valid claim to it.
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Problem is, long years before those rockets Israel invade their land..
Sorry for taking just one part of your post.
The counter argument to that is that the formation of Palestine was an invasion of Jewish lands. Unless the history can be put aside, there will never be peace there...
That land has belonged to so many different peoples that nobody/everybody has a valid claim to it.
Historically they were living in tribes ..and owning the lands in small areas..and it was the same under Ottoman Empire control.
But after the formation of Israel they claim to have all those lands completely..
And being rich and powerful dont give them the right to have all those lands..As a result this will war will never stop..
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I note with interest that the US are sitting on the fence.....cant think why! ;D
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Problem is, long years before those rockets Israel invade their land..
Sorry for taking just one part of your post.
The counter argument to that is that the formation of Palestine was an invasion of Jewish lands. Unless the history can be put aside, there will never be peace there...
That land has belonged to so many different peoples that nobody/everybody has a valid claim to it.
Historically they were living in tribes ..and owning the lands in small areas..and it was the same under Ottoman Empire control.
But after the formation of Israel they claim to have all those lands completely..
And being rich and powerful dont give them the right to have all those lands..As a result this will war will never stop..
As said, the only way peace will prevail there (and in other regions such as the disputed Kashmir region of Pakisatn/India) is to try to put the history as history - which is unlikely to happen as there is too much hatred and distrust between them.
Over here, we had a similar situation - though far less complex, and far less history - in Northern Ireland. It took big people, who were heads of their followers, to actually sit down, agree to wipe slate clean, and form a coilition.
Although not the same as Northern Ireland by a long shot - although a few lose parallels could be drawn - I don't think anyone in the Isrealli or Palestinian Governments have got the balls. Nor do I think they want peace in that region... ...rather than discuss how the Isreallis and Palistians can live together, both want total control of those lands. That will never happen, so there will never be peace. If either side think they can gain those lands be anniliating the other side, well, that shows the people you are dealing with.
A few years ago, when Israel gave back the West Bank and Gaza Strip, there was a hope that a peaceful resolution, with both sides being prepared to compromise, would be found.
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I note with interest that the US are sitting on the fence.....cant think why! ;D
Despite Isreal being a strategically important ally in the Middle East, the yankee authorities wouldn't want to piss off the OPEC nations....
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Problem is, long years before those rockets Israel invade their land..
Sorry for taking just one part of your post.
The counter argument to that is that the formation of Palestine was an invasion of Jewish lands. Unless the history can be put aside, there will never be peace there...
That land has belonged to so many different peoples that nobody/everybody has a valid claim to it.
Couldn't agree more. The past is irrelevant. What matters now is the mutual security of both Israel and Palestine. Time for people to move on. :y :y
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I note with interest that the US are sitting on the fence.....cant think why! ;D
Despite Isreal being a strategically important ally in the Middle East, the yankee authorities wouldn't want to piss off the OPEC nations....
Israel is more than an ally..
they are directly effecting the congressmen and president elections..
most banks -including FEDERAL RESERVE BANK - is owned (some partially) by jewish..
Intelligency agencies are nearly married ;D
so can easily say Israel is half America.. >:(
and guess who killed Kennedy ;)
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Thanks greatly for all your opinions and observations, along with your voting in the poll. :y :y :y :y
This will prove very useful to me in my Political discussions and work at uni. ;)
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Thanks greatly for all your opinions and observations, along with your voting in the poll. :y :y :y :y
This will prove very useful to me in my Political discussions and work at uni. ;)
I would be interested in your opinion of the conflict Lizzie. :y :y
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Thanks greatly for all your opinions and observations, along with your voting in the poll. :y :y :y :y
This will prove very useful to me in my Political discussions and work at uni. ;)
I would be interested in your opinion of the conflict Lizzie. :y :y
I knew somebody would raise that question with me eventually!! ;D ;D ;)
As I stated when I started this thread, this is a very deep long standing historical and political issue in this part that has suffered so much strife and conflict seemingly over the last 2000 year plus that Jesus was recorded on commenting on, and predicted it would last, at least in respect of Jerusalem until Judgment Day! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
It is so embedded in the religious, political power, and yes land grabbing emotions of all sides, that no one I believe can possibly come up with a simple solution, unless they are God / Allah. :'( :'( :'(
Your early post to the thread Optimist came very close, in my humble opinion, to being a precise summary on the current situation, which I was very interested to see Cem agreeing with. ;) ;)
It has been also stated, I believe correctly, that this is, and probably always has been, far more than a religious conflict between Christians and Muslims, although both have had their extremists and "crusades" to convert the other!! I am in no way a theologian, but I have read both Holy Books, The Bible and an English translation of the Koran. As I understand it from my readings, and please would any of my Muslim brothers and sisters please correct me if I am wrong, but both Jesus (d. c33AD) and Mohamed (d.632AD) both preached love and forgiveness between men, and stressed killing another man was a sin. A point continually stressed by Islamic clerics and Christian leaders when discussing all the world's "religious" conflicts.
Therefore I believe, as others have stated, this latest conflict, and most previous ones, cannot be connected to religion, but instead due to land grabbing power politics, which on one side (Hammas) want the "Total eradication of Israel", and on the other (Israeli) the total security of their homeland, its people and way of life, but without Palestine / Arab influence anywhere, including of course Jerusalem.
God / Allah will eventually bring peace to the World, and especially the poor Middle East who's conflicts go back so far to at least pre-Roman times. None of us surely have the answer to the whole situation in this, or any part of the troubled World, and I believe that all we can do is pray for the eventual peace, love and understanding that both Jesus and Mohamed preached. :-* :-* :-* ;)
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Hamas have sent over 6000 rockets/missiles into Isreal in the last 7 years,while the Isrealis have excersised (by their standards at least) a lot of restraint.A similar scenario would have been during the Northern Ireland troubles for the government of the Repuplic of Ireland to have authorised their armed forces to fire thousands of rockets into the UK.
There was a truce in recent months and Hamas stated before it was due to expire that they had no interest in renewing the truce.They then commenced firing 80 rockets per day into southern Israel.
We didnt see Alexie (bolshy)Sayle and his champagne socialist buddies protesting in trafalgar square then did we ?
Israel is surrounded by nations who do not recognise its right to exist,despite the fact that the international community has done so for over half a century,and many of these peoples would like to see it and all its inhabitants wiped off the map.
In these circumstances Isreal usually meets fire with fire and Hamas must have known that this would happen at some point,the only war they can win is the propoganda war and they are well aware of this.They are using the people of gaza as pawns in their game .Its just such a shame that it is always the innocent civilians who suffer in these situations. just my tuppence woth,etc;
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Hamas have sent over 6000 rockets/missiles into Isreal in the last 7 years,while the Isrealis have excersised (by their standards at least) a lot of restraint.A similar scenario would have been during the Northern Ireland troubles for the government of the Repuplic of Ireland to have authorised their armed forces to fire thousands of rockets into the UK.
There was a truce in recent months and Hamas stated before it was due to expire that they had no interest in renewing the truce.They then commenced firing 80 rockets per day into southern Israel.
We didnt see Alexie (bolshy)Sayle and his champagne socialist buddies protesting in trafalgar square then did we ?
Israel is surrounded by nations who do not recognise its right to exist,despite the fact that the international community has done so for over half a century,and many of these peoples would like to see it and all its inhabitants wiped off the map.
In these circumstances Isreal usually meets fire with fire and Hamas must have known that this would happen at some point,the only war they can win is the propoganda war and they are well aware of this.They are using the people of gaza as pawns in their game .Its just such a shame that it is always the innocent civilians who suffer in these situations. just my tuppence woth,etc;
Yep, another good summary of the existing situation. :y :y
Just a pity the two sides cannot sit down and get beyond the historical tit for tat politics and finally sort their differences out for the point you correctly make Albitz; the sake of the innocent people of both countries. ;) ;)
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Hamas have sent over 6000 rockets/missiles into Isreal in the last 7 years,while the Isrealis have excersised (by their standards at least) a lot of restraint.A similar scenario would have been during the Northern Ireland troubles for the government of the Repuplic of Ireland to have authorised their armed forces to fire thousands of rockets into the UK.
There was a truce in recent months and Hamas stated before it was due to expire that they had no interest in renewing the truce.They then commenced firing 80 rockets per day into southern Israel.
We didnt see Alexie (bolshy)Sayle and his champagne socialist buddies protesting in trafalgar square then did we ?
Israel is surrounded by nations who do not recognise its right to exist,despite the fact that the international community has done so for over half a century,and many of these peoples would like to see it and all its inhabitants wiped off the map.
In these circumstances Isreal usually meets fire with fire and Hamas must have known that this would happen at some point,the only war they can win is the propoganda war and they are well aware of this.They are using the people of gaza as pawns in their game .Its just such a shame that it is always the innocent civilians who suffer in these situations. just my tuppence woth,etc;
Yep, another good summary of the existing situation. :y :y
Just a pity the two sides cannot sit down and get beyond the historical tit for tat politics and finally sort their differences out for the point you correctly make Albitz; the sake of the innocent people of both countries. ;) ;)
How can they when neither side can tolerate the other side existing...
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Hamas have sent over 6000 rockets/missiles into Isreal in the last 7 years,while the Isrealis have excersised (by their standards at least) a lot of restraint.A similar scenario would have been during the Northern Ireland troubles for the government of the Repuplic of Ireland to have authorised their armed forces to fire thousands of rockets into the UK.
There was a truce in recent months and Hamas stated before it was due to expire that they had no interest in renewing the truce.They then commenced firing 80 rockets per day into southern Israel.
We didnt see Alexie (bolshy)Sayle and his champagne socialist buddies protesting in trafalgar square then did we ?
Israel is surrounded by nations who do not recognise its right to exist,despite the fact that the international community has done so for over half a century,and many of these peoples would like to see it and all its inhabitants wiped off the map.
In these circumstances Isreal usually meets fire with fire and Hamas must have known that this would happen at some point,the only war they can win is the propoganda war and they are well aware of this.They are using the people of gaza as pawns in their game .Its just such a shame that it is always the innocent civilians who suffer in these situations. just my tuppence woth,etc;
Yep, another good summary of the existing situation. :y :y
Just a pity the two sides cannot sit down and get beyond the historical tit for tat politics and finally sort their differences out for the point you correctly make Albitz; the sake of the innocent people of both countries. ;) ;)
How can they when neither side can tolerate the other side existing...
Yes TB, and that about totally sums the subject up! 8-) 8-) ;)
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In my experience,including growing up in Belfast and travelling to various countries,including Israel,most people just want to get on with earning a living and generally getting on with day to day life and will,if reasonably possible get on with their neighbours no matter who they are.But there is always a trouble making minority element with their own agenda who spoil things for everyone. >:(
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I'm afraid most of TV channels and newspapers can not or dont reflect actually whats happening there..Reason is obvious..
And here I see ideas and views some are very close to the reality and some are far..no offense meant..
I must state that if the situation was reverse and Israel Lands was
under invasion and israel civils are destroyed in mass like Palestinians
no doubt I would defend them like everybody did during Nazi holocaust..
I believe no matter a persons religion is, nobody cant defence a nations destruction..
The difference between them is Palestinians are fighting for their EXISTENCE and land where Israel is for more land..
But to my surprise, holocaust now is done by jews which suffered the same..
And now Israel is saying they are defending their country against Hamas rockets.. Thats a lie with a long tail.. >:(
Hamas is a result which they created by their violence..
I will finish with a saying from my language translated:
You plant wind , you harvest storm..
Rant over..
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ultimately, forget whats gone before, the palastinians will achieve nothing with rocket attacks. How can that possibly achieve anything but misery for its own people? They sign their own death warrant. Madness, cluster bombs(?) and all.
Can anyone explane this "tac tic" to me?
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ultimately, forget whats gone before, the palastinians will achieve nothing with rocket attacks. How can that possibly achieve anything but misery for its own people? They sign their own death warrant. Madness, cluster bombs(?) and all.
Can anyone explane this "tac tic" to me?
The keyword is "safety".. Israel citizens can never feel this anywhere ..
thats a big price thay have to pay..