Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: albitz on 06 February 2009, 18:53:08
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A lady at work has a Rover 25 which is losing water.The garage says it isnt the head gasket. Any ideas ?
:-/
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K series????
Bet it is the HG.......
If the water aint coming out on the road then.......
Try another garage
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K series????
Bet it is the HG.......
If the water aint coming out on the road then.......
Try another garage
Agreed, I would put money on it that it's HG try another garage
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Dont know enough to even know if it would be a K series,but apparently the garage it was bought from did the HG a while ago,its now losing water so they have had a look and said it definetely isnt the HG but they dont know what is causing it.I think one "mechanic"wore a stetson and the other one had spurs on his boots. ::) ::)
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25 will have the K series,or newer version thereof.......
There rubbish,very easy to damage the HG on rebuild,or not having it skimmed correctly...my money would be on poorly done repair or done on the cheap,therefore not done properly....
If its loosing water and its not pouring onto the road then i would be pretty confident its HG,either that or when it was done before the head itself has a crack and been put back together with the defect, the new gasket would just split again at the crack....
Probably this was the engine that killed Rover once and for all,
Some Landrover Freelanders had them,hence why you can buy a Freelander today for around £300 to £500! and thats for a 2001/2002 model.... :o
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the garage are trying to cover them selfs of any come backs ? i sounds hg for def take to another garage one that will do a proper job and know how to fill and bleed cooling system correctly have done loads never had a problem but know plenty of people that went to the wrong place
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Will pass the message on ,thanks. She is skint and in a panic as she needs a car to get to both her jobs.
Apparently the head wasnt skimmed,they just changed the gasket,remember reading a thread a while ago (by Lazydocker?) that there is a certain make of gasket with a spacer which cures this problem ? anyone any info on that?
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Not skimmed........?
Oh dear
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the best way to check if it is the HGF is to look at the dip stick and under the oil cap if you have chocolate milkshake then shes in the poo.
the other one is how much water is she loosing??????
it could be an airlock it is possible.
the best place to ask is on this website i use it for my rover 200 and the lads are great.
http://forums.mg-rover.org/
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check the thermostat housing as they are prone to breaking,also the cap on the expansion bottle can cause it problems
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A lady at work has a Rover 25 which is losing water.The garage says it isnt the head gasket. Any ideas ?
:-/
HG aside, the favourites on these for coolant leaks are rad, stat housing, or coolant transfer pipe, all of which leave visible signs.
If HG, the K series tends to show signs of water in oil.
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25 will have the K series,or newer version thereof.......
There rubbish,very easy to damage the HG on rebuild,or not having it skimmed correctly...my money would be on poorly done repair or done on the cheap,therefore not done properly....
If its loosing water and its not pouring onto the road then i would be pretty confident its HG,either that or when it was done before the head itself has a crack and been put back together with the defect, the new gasket would just split again at the crack....
Probably this was the engine that killed Rover once and for all,
Some Landrover Freelanders had them,hence why you can buy a Freelander today for around £300 to £500! and thats for a 2001/2002 model.... :o
The K series is actually a very good engine, despite its age (20yrs since its release this year), but unfortunately under the BMW years, never got the development it needed.
How many 20yr old engines could still meet today's emmissions standard? How many 20yr old engines can still match its main competitors current engines on performance?
Landrover did improve its HG issue massively towards the end of its production - sadly Rover chose not to do this (despite Powertrain - a Rover company - supplied both Rover and Landrover). A HG failure on a Rover K series is guaranteed in the same way as a crank sensor failure is on a GM V6. It WILL happen, just be prepared and try to catch it as early as possible.
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25 will have the K series,or newer version thereof.......
There rubbish,very easy to damage the HG on rebuild,or not having it skimmed correctly...my money would be on poorly done repair or done on the cheap,therefore not done properly....
If its loosing water and its not pouring onto the road then i would be pretty confident its HG,either that or when it was done before the head itself has a crack and been put back together with the defect, the new gasket would just split again at the crack....
Probably this was the engine that killed Rover once and for all,
Some Landrover Freelanders had them,hence why you can buy a Freelander today for around £300 to £500! and thats for a 2001/2002 model.... :o
The K series is actually a very good engine, despite its age (20yrs since its release this year), but unfortunately under the BMW years, never got the development it needed.
How many 20yr old engines could still meet today's emmissions standard? How many 20yr old engines can still match its main competitors current engines on performance?
Landrover did improve its HG issue massively towards the end of its production - sadly Rover chose not to do this (despite Powertrain - a Rover company - supplied both Rover and Landrover). A HG failure on a Rover K series is guaranteed in the same way as a crank sensor failure is on a GM V6. It WILL happen, just be prepared and try to catch it as early as possible.
To be honest if you look at the 1.4 in a 25 103ps model there are hardly any cars on the market at th minute that actualy match it's performance I was suprised good engine it was apart from HG's.
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all rovers have crap water pumps and crap heater matrix and the only place they can keep hold of water is in form of condenstion in inside of windows.
i should know cos i been using one as temporary cheap form of transport for past 2 month :-[
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all rovers have crap water pumps and crap heater matrix and the only place they can keep hold of water is in form of condenstion in inside of windows.
i should know cos i been using one as temporary cheap form of transport for past 2 month :-[
In that case, the 4 Rovers I have owned must have been the exception to the rule. Oh, plus the 2 Mrs TheBoy's dad had, not to mention the 3 here brother had. :-/
I will concede the R7 (wedge shaped hatchback) 200 series did seem to suffer condensation issues. It appeared to be water running down the aerial in the A post making carpets damp that caused it...
Never known water pump problems or heater matrix problems though :-/
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I'd put money on HG... Especially as they didn't skim the head! Never known a K series not need skimming, and I've done a lot of them!!
As for the water pump/matrix issues... News to me! The most common cause of HG fail has always been Thermostat IME... For some reason they always seem to fail closed on the K series ::) ::)
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hmm from my rover K series experiance
i have a theory to the headgasket!
The radiator fitted to K Series engines isnt particually very strong and so over time develops a leak! thus leaking all the water out.....
K series engines HG is a weak design it would seem to me that once a K Series engine overheats the HG is damaged!
thats why when i changed the mrs old rovers one i also done the thermo and the rad!
also dont put radweld in a kseries rad as again they use very narrow channels that radweld blocks up! creating more cooling issues!
thats my theory anyway!
HG is a easy DIYable job though on all K Series rovers
i should add that the thermostat didnt fail on the mrs's old rover! her's was the 1.4 14KN4 engine the radiator fitted to the 1.4 is the same that K series metros have an its tiny compared to the omegas
i must say though that the k series rover we had never missed a beat it never failed any mot and never broke down! apart from its HG it was a very reliable motor! and very very very cheap to run it did nearly 50mpg and had 130k on it before i sold it on!
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Your theory is a mile off the mark!
Its a fundamental engine design issue which no approach, parts or the like will sort.
There are some things that will lessen (slightly) the possibility of it happening again but, it cant be cured (without expensive machining!)
The bottom lin is that the liners are not to stable....that coupled with full bock head bolts and you get a little bit of 'walk' around the fire rings.
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Your theory is a mile off the mark!
Its a fundamental engine design issue which no approach, parts or the like will sort.
There are some things that will lessen (slightly) the possibility of it happening again but, it cant be cured (without expensive machining!)
The bottom lin is that the liners are not to stable....that coupled with full bock head bolts and you get a little bit of 'walk' around the fire rings.
The warranty engineers say it is to do with the tolerances around the temperatures around the block/head join that is the fundamental issue - further development of the engine could have overcome this in their opinion :-/
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I served my time at a college in Glasgow which was part funded by Arnold Clark and Rover,and i served my time on the K series,when they were pretty new to the automotive industry,
Basic set up,electronics,fuel injection systems,emmisions were all pretty much ahead of their time and were really pretty good......
Rover's big boo boo was they did not take the time to design decent set up to go with it...i.e thermostat set up,water pump,radiator,alternator all came from older set ups already on the market,which didn't really cut it with the new engine.....
As said above the K series did eventually suffer from heat problem,which was something that could have been rectified without too much expense or real hardship to the design teams......
Electronics and fuel injection set up,coupled with the emmision levels it produced were pretty much second to none......
But unfortunately they skimped on the ancillaries which made it 'overall' pretty much a let down......
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25 will have the K series,or newer version thereof.......
There rubbish,very easy to damage the HG on rebuild,or not having it skimmed correctly...my money would be on poorly done repair or done on the cheap,therefore not done properly....
If its loosing water and its not pouring onto the road then i would be pretty confident its HG,either that or when it was done before the head itself has a crack and been put back together with the defect, the new gasket would just split again at the crack....
Probably this was the engine that killed Rover once and for all,
Some Landrover Freelanders had them,hence why you can buy a Freelander today for around £300 to £500! and thats for a 2001/2002 model.... :o
The K series is actually a very good engine, despite its age (20yrs since its release this year), but unfortunately under the BMW years, never got the development it needed.
How many 20yr old engines could still meet today's emmissions standard? How many 20yr old engines can still match its main competitors current engines on performance?
Landrover did improve its HG issue massively towards the end of its production - sadly Rover chose not to do this (despite Powertrain - a Rover company - supplied both Rover and Landrover). A HG failure on a Rover K series is guaranteed in the same way as a crank sensor failure is on a GM V6. It WILL happen, just be prepared and try to catch it as early as possible.
With all due respect that quote must be from someone who has never worked in the motor trade, they are rubbish. They will meet any emission standards when they are parked up, broken down and won't run. Absolute rubbish the K series engine in my opinion and experience. A major contributory factor in Rovers decline.
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25 will have the K series,or newer version thereof.......
There rubbish,very easy to damage the HG on rebuild,or not having it skimmed correctly...my money would be on poorly done repair or done on the cheap,therefore not done properly....
If its loosing water and its not pouring onto the road then i would be pretty confident its HG,either that or when it was done before the head itself has a crack and been put back together with the defect, the new gasket would just split again at the crack....
Probably this was the engine that killed Rover once and for all,
Some Landrover Freelanders had them,hence why you can buy a Freelander today for around £300 to £500! and thats for a 2001/2002 model.... :o
The K series is actually a very good engine, despite its age (20yrs since its release this year), but unfortunately under the BMW years, never got the development it needed.
How many 20yr old engines could still meet today's emmissions standard? How many 20yr old engines can still match its main competitors current engines on performance?
Landrover did improve its HG issue massively towards the end of its production - sadly Rover chose not to do this (despite Powertrain - a Rover company - supplied both Rover and Landrover). A HG failure on a Rover K series is guaranteed in the same way as a crank sensor failure is on a GM V6. It WILL happen, just be prepared and try to catch it as early as possible.
With all due respect that quote must be from someone who has never worked in the motor trade, they are rubbish. They will meet any emission standards when they are parked up, broken down and won't run. Absolute rubbish the K series engine in my opinion and experience. A major contributory factor in Rovers decline.
You're entitled to your view, I'm entitled to mine :y
I made my mind up on not only have owned some, but also having access to the stats on warranties and breakdowns against numbers sold.
And it is fact that the K series can meet the lastest emissions standard, despite being first released 20yrs ago. It is also fact that it is more than a match for similar engines from other manufacturers performance wise, and with the additional bonus of being a very light engine, even when 'wet'.
Rover's (not Austen's) demise can be fairly squarely laid at BMW's door with a disjointed strategy - initially they bought it primarily to gain 2 key pieces of technology (4x4 and mass production techniques - both of which worked out quite well for BMW). Then they decided to try to take a mass market manufacturer upmarket, but using mass market components - ie simply overpricing (a trick carried on by MG Rover, which eventually killed it - not that it was ever viable business, as with no money for new designs, and the Rover designs being taken by BMW before the sale (Mini, and the then new R30 which became the BMW 1 series))
So, no, the engine - which, granted, did need futher development to increase reliability (as Landrover managed to improve, though not entirely fix) - was not Rover's demise.
BMW aside, Rover's other big problem, which stemmed back from the BL days, was Londbridge, and the mentality of the workforce there.
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25 will have the K series,or newer version thereof.......
There rubbish,very easy to damage the HG on rebuild,or not having it skimmed correctly...my money would be on poorly done repair or done on the cheap,therefore not done properly....
If its loosing water and its not pouring onto the road then i would be pretty confident its HG,either that or when it was done before the head itself has a crack and been put back together with the defect, the new gasket would just split again at the crack....
Probably this was the engine that killed Rover once and for all,
Some Landrover Freelanders had them,hence why you can buy a Freelander today for around £300 to £500! and thats for a 2001/2002 model.... :o
The K series is actually a very good engine, despite its age (20yrs since its release this year), but unfortunately under the BMW years, never got the development it needed.
How many 20yr old engines could still meet today's emmissions standard? How many 20yr old engines can still match its main competitors current engines on performance?
Landrover did improve its HG issue massively towards the end of its production - sadly Rover chose not to do this (despite Powertrain - a Rover company - supplied both Rover and Landrover). A HG failure on a Rover K series is guaranteed in the same way as a crank sensor failure is on a GM V6. It WILL happen, just be prepared and try to catch it as early as possible.
With all due respect that quote must be from someone who has never worked in the motor trade, they are rubbish. They will meet any emission standards when they are parked up, broken down and won't run. Absolute rubbish the K series engine in my opinion and experience. A major contributory factor in Rovers decline.
You're entitled to your view, I'm entitled to mine :y
I made my mind up on not only have owned some, but also having access to the stats on warranties and breakdowns against numbers sold.
And it is fact that the K series can meet the lastest emissions standard, despite being first released 20yrs ago. It is also fact that it is more than a match for similar engines from other manufacturers performance wise, and with the additional bonus of being a very light engine, even when 'wet'.
Rover's (not Austen's) demise can be fairly squarely laid at BMW's door with a disjointed strategy - initially they bought it primarily to gain 2 key pieces of technology (4x4 and mass production techniques - both of which worked out quite well for BMW). Then they decided to try to take a mass market manufacturer upmarket, but using mass market components - ie simply overpricing (a trick carried on by MG Rover, which eventually killed it - not that it was ever viable business, as with no money for new designs, and the Rover designs being taken by BMW before the sale (Mini, and the then new R30 which became the BMW 1 series))
So, no, the engine - which, granted, did need futher development to increase reliability (as Landrover managed to improve, though not entirely fix) - was not Rover's demise.
BMW aside, Rover's other big problem, which stemmed back from the BL days, was Londbridge, and the mentality of the workforce there.
The fact that the engine problems were never properly rectified says a lot about Rover. Having been at the sharp end of the motor trade in sales and repair for a lot of years I speak from experience and from a wallet severely dented by this awful engine. I estimate that for every K series equipped Rover I sold, 75% came back for a head gasket, that is about 300 out of 400 ( approx ) sold over a 10 year period. In many cases we gave the buyer their money back or an exchange and sent the cars to auction as they are never 100% right again, in fact they never were even when leaving the factory. Advertise a Rover ( petrol ) and the first question is " Has it got the Honda engine ? ) That again speaks volumes. We were Autocross racing at Croft a little while back and a competitor had put a K series in a car after being told how good they are, lasted 2 laps and guess what happened ? I fully agree that some people may have been fortunate and never suffered the problem during ownership, the fault tends to occur after a couple of years, well past Rovers ( at the time)12 months warranty which may explain their low figures.Also the statement last year from the new Chinese owners that they had spent considerable time " examining engine reliability issues " speaks volumes. I re-iterate, it doesn't matter how advanced something is, if it doesn't work its from the stone age.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
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The K is particularly prone to poor servicing. Neglect the coolant on a GM V6, the oil cooler fails. Do the same on a K, and dead cert HG failure will come knocking at your door.
Warranty claims aren't just for 12 months, and most Rover owners will take their car to Rover dealer (when they still existed), and thus on the stats ;)
As to the Honda (ie Had One Never Drive Another), had one, not a bad engine, but desperately uneconomical (my MV6 returns better economy) as you have to keep the revs above 4000 rpm else its gutless. Also, suffered with duff ignition electronics - thats guaranteed to let you down at least once in the same way a GM V6 will screw you with a crank sensor failure.
Every engine has its weakness, Rover K and earlier LR K, its the HG - fortunately dead easy to change :)
Now the early Rover KV6 engines, now that did have issues around block design (mostly resolved on later ones, but its reputation already destroyed by then)