Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: largecol on 05 May 2009, 11:20:30
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Not wishing to start another scrap between OOfers, but is anyone else suprised by figures like this?? :o :o :-/
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090504/tuk-police-cause-nine-crashes-a-day-dba1618.html#share
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OK BUT you have to consider ........
How many cars are there on the roads at one time?
How many miles do they cover in just one day?
How often are they having to drive at speed?
You also have to consider that everytime a police car (or any emergency services vehicle for that matter) is involved in an accident it is front page news if not nationally but locally.
Apart from the arsehole who acted like an idiot and knocked the girl down personally I think they do a tremendous job and having seen the training they have to go through be assured if they were not so well trained there would be one hell of a lot more!
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No, not surprised at all. Even with all the training, driving at speed trying to stop the bad guys is inherently dangerous.
I know, due to the bad publicity after an accident, some forces now no longer do pursuits except in extreme circumstances. What kind of message does that send out? If you are a scumbag, do what you like because the old bill won't chase you?
Rather than always picking on these guys, why don't we (as a country) support the people trying to uphold the law in difficult circumstances.
Also, I wonder how many of these were 'carpark' type shunts?
And lastly, I used to work for a company with a large fleet, similar in size to police force. I would say we had 10 times as many daily shunts
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Rather than always picking on these guys, why don't we (as a country) support the people trying to uphold the law in difficult circumstances.
Couldn't agree more :y
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Rather than always picking on these guys, why don't we (as a country) support the people trying to uphold the law in difficult circumstances.
Couldn't agree more :y
While i agree with you chaps in principal, regarding the fleet cars and numbers on the road etc, these guys supposed to be highly trained advanced drivers, not just your average sales rep handed mondeo keys and told to hit the roads.
Dont get me wrong i`ve every respect for all the emerency services (not just the boys in blue) and the difficult jobs they ALL do, but perhaps, just perhaps there should be a little more accountability when they should be abiding by the same rules of the road as we all have to?
Again, i`m NOT having a pop at them, but some of the `manouvres` i`ve seen with vehicles obviously not responding to a `situation` leaves alot to be desired, and i feel if i`d been spotted doing the same on a public road i would have been relieved of my licence a long time ago. :-/
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Our local police smashed an omega into a traffic light system at a roundabout caused major cahos they were chasing some "Bad Guys" and so they gave the omega to much stick round a corner and the inevitable happend
was very very funny the police got quite upset with people taking pictures
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw4BFd7zn7o
The car the misrecriants were in was a Subaru WRX impreza so they didnt stand a chance really!
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I'm a bit shocked by those figures but it may be down to the wording of the report. The crash count is followed immediately by some examples of careless driving and says these accounted for some of the crashes. The implication is that several of the total may have been due to these reasons but that is not what is actually said.
I think I may have been duped into making 2 + 2 = 5 subconsciously.
I'd also like to know what 'causing' means in reality (1st para of report and headline).
Here's to better training for all drivers.
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Rather than always picking on these guys, why don't we (as a country) support the people trying to uphold the law in difficult circumstances.
Couldn't agree more :y
While i agree with you chaps in principal, regarding the fleet cars and numbers on the road etc, these guys supposed to be highly trained advanced drivers, not just your average sales rep handed mondeo keys and told to hit the roads.
Dont get me wrong i`ve every respect for all the emerency services (not just the boys in blue) and the difficult jobs they ALL do, but perhaps, just perhaps there should be a little more accountability when they should be abiding by the same rules of the road as we all have to?
Again, i`m NOT having a pop at them, but some of the `manouvres` i`ve seen with vehicles obviously not responding to a `situation` leaves alot to be desired, and i feel if i`d been spotted doing the same on a public road i would have been relieved of my licence a long time ago. :-/
I'm no expert, but was under the impression that only traffic had the advanced training. Std PC Plod driving a Focus panda may well have little extra driver training.
Also, remember some of the most experienced high speed drivers are racing drivers, and they make mistakes ;).
Yes, the police are highly trained, invariably more so than the people they are chasing, which is why its more likely the bad guys stuff it more often than plod...
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Firstly it is an interesting news headline as it doesn't provide you with
the sample data
the sample period
total number of police vehicles sample taken from
doesn't consider forces have different policies as TB says
which are all necessary criteria when using statistics and interpreting them.
Consider this headline
100 % increase in burglaries in area, in the last year!!!
What this could mean - there has been 1 and it has increased to 2 or more worringly there was 20 and it has increased to 40. Both scenarios fit the headline though.
In relation to police driving,
Police officers are not exempt from road traffic legislation and this has to be adhered to unless specific exemptions are claimed under the road traffic act.
These broadly summarised are; speed exemptions, red traffic lights - to be treated as give ways, keep left and keep right sign - can be deviated from and the use of seat belts IF it were to hinder the vehicle for a policing purpose (and that doen't include getting lunch!).
Any use of the exemption has to be justifiable and the driver and possibly others are accountable for their use and application of it.
A court can also retrospectively remove the right for them to claim their exemptions under the road traffic act as previously described, if there is other evidence of driving which is either inconsiderate, careless or dangerous driving. Therefore, an officer in court for any of these offences and also claiming an exemption under legislation, can expect to also be prosecuted for the matter to which the exemption applied.
Like anyone, officers if caught, are dealt with, either informally or formally, no different to any other motorist. Largecol, you obviously saw a police officer carrying out an illegal manoeuvre - did you take the trouble to report them? If not, then you only have yourself to take issue with. A person will only amend their behaviour if it is challenged or they receive a sanction.
If this debate/ discussion is to continue then applications to all 43 police services need to be made under the freedom of information act asking for
the number of police authority owned leased or hired vehicles in their fleet within the last tax year
the number of reported collisions that occured with breakdown of injury, non injury, fatal, vicinity (where a suspect is being pursued and crashes but the police vehicle does not collide)
the number of instances of complaints against officers contravening road traffic legislation
the number of those resolved informally
the number of those resolved through the judicial process
Only once we are in possession of the data are we in a position to comment, as to what the statistics mean and represent. No I am not volunteering!!!!
Police officers like anybody else are human, they make mistakes or errors of judgement (too fast etc), and have to live with themselves and the consequences of them, very much like the latest road safety campaign suggests. Any accident occurring through work prosecution or pending prosecution must be declared to an individuals insurance company; as they ask the question 'have you been involved in any accidents in the last x years'; failure to declare is fraud. Mr Mondeo man has his insurance provided by his company, police officers have their own private policies to which they must declare any accidents either at work or in their own vehicle.
We all commit wrong doings every now and again, whether it be speeding, or dropping a piece of litter (throwing a fag end out of the car is littering) but it doesn't make the news unless it is very serious. There have been some interesting admissions and comments on here if you look back.
The police are in the public eye and have the support of them, this headline does nothing to help that support them.
How about publicising the heroic work of the police such as diving into raw sewage to recover a murder weapon, giving mouth to mouth to someone unknown to the officer, no of course not, these aren't news worthy headlines.
Notice you only get the good news stories when there is no bad news.
:-?
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....... are dealt with, either informally or formally, no different to any other motorist. Gareth, you obviously saw a police officer carrying out an illegal manoeuvre
Sorry 3.2 Omegaestate - wrong person. It wasn't my post. ;)
I have nothing but praise for what the vast majority do. :)
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Gareth
Sorry that I misquoted.
I misread the forum, and the way it quotes people.
Once again my apologies.
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I'm sure if you took the accident statistics from any large national companies fleet you could create a story to paint their drivers in as bad if not worse a picture but that wouldn't sell newspapers would it?
Lies, damned lies, and statistics as the saying goes.
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This is the reason I would never ever ever buy an ex plod car.....whoever believes they are cherished, well maintained cars is kidding themselves....
They are tools that the coppers use to do a job, and if needs must, the copper will think nothing of thrashing the car or damaging it if need be too........
:y
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Since the omega incident our local lot have had T5 Estates they still have an omega saloon out ledbury way
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No, not surprised at all. Even with all the training, driving at speed trying to stop the bad guys is inherently dangerous.
I know, due to the bad publicity after an accident, some forces now no longer do pursuits except in extreme circumstances. What kind of message does that send out? If you are a scumbag, do what you like because the old bill won't chase you?
Rather than always picking on these guys, why don't we (as a country) support the people trying to uphold the law in difficult circumstances.
Also, I wonder how many of these were 'carpark' type shunts?
And lastly, I used to work for a company with a large fleet, similar in size to police force. I would say we had 10 times as many daily shunts
Thank you TB :y :y
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Firstly it is an interesting news headline as it doesn't provide you with
the sample data
the sample period
total number of police vehicles sample taken from
doesn't consider forces have different policies as TB says
which are all necessary criteria when using statistics and interpreting them.
Consider this headline
100 % increase in burglaries in area, in the last year!!!
What this could mean - there has been 1 and it has increased to 2 or more worringly there was 20 and it has increased to 40. Both scenarios fit the headline though.
In relation to police driving,
Police officers are not exempt from road traffic legislation and this has to be adhered to unless specific exemptions are claimed under the road traffic act.
These broadly summarised are; speed exemptions, red traffic lights - to be treated as give ways, keep left and keep right sign - can be deviated from and the use of seat belts IF it were to hinder the vehicle for a policing purpose (and that doen't include getting lunch!).
Any use of the exemption has to be justifiable and the driver and possibly others are accountable for their use and application of it.
A court can also retrospectively remove the right for them to claim their exemptions under the road traffic act as previously described, if there is other evidence of driving which is either inconsiderate, careless or dangerous driving. Therefore, an officer in court for any of these offences and also claiming an exemption under legislation, can expect to also be prosecuted for the matter to which the exemption applied.
Like anyone, officers if caught, are dealt with, either informally or formally, no different to any other motorist. Largecol, you obviously saw a police officer carrying out an illegal manoeuvre - did you take the trouble to report them? If not, then you only have yourself to take issue with. A person will only amend their behaviour if it is challenged or they receive a sanction.
If this debate/ discussion is to continue then applications to all 43 police services need to be made under the freedom of information act asking for
the number of police authority owned leased or hired vehicles in their fleet within the last tax year
the number of reported collisions that occured with breakdown of injury, non injury, fatal, vicinity (where a suspect is being pursued and crashes but the police vehicle does not collide)
the number of instances of complaints against officers contravening road traffic legislation
the number of those resolved informally
the number of those resolved through the judicial process
Only once we are in possession of the data are we in a position to comment, as to what the statistics mean and represent. No I am not volunteering!!!!
Police officers like anybody else are human, they make mistakes or errors of judgement (too fast etc), and have to live with themselves and the consequences of them, very much like the latest road safety campaign suggests. Any accident occurring through work prosecution or pending prosecution must be declared to an individuals insurance company; as they ask the question 'have you been involved in any accidents in the last x years'; failure to declare is fraud. Mr Mondeo man has his insurance provided by his company, police officers have their own private policies to which they must declare any accidents either at work or in their own vehicle.
We all commit wrong doings every now and again, whether it be speeding, or dropping a piece of litter (throwing a fag end out of the car is littering) but it doesn't make the news unless it is very serious. There have been some interesting admissions and comments on here if you look back.
The police are in the public eye and have the support of them, this headline does nothing to help that support them.
How about publicising the heroic work of the police such as diving into raw sewage to recover a murder weapon, giving mouth to mouth to someone unknown to the officer, no of course not, these aren't news worthy headlines.
Notice you only get the good news stories when there is no bad news.
:-?
Thank you 3.2 :y :y
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OK BUT you have to consider ........
How many cars are there on the roads at one time?
How many miles do they cover in just one day?
How often are they having to drive at speed?
You also have to consider that everytime a police car (or any emergency services vehicle for that matter) is involved in an accident it is front page news if not nationally but locally.
Apart from the arsehole who acted like an idiot and knocked the girl down personally I think they do a tremendous job and having seen the training they have to go through be assured if they were not so well trained there would be one hell of a lot more!
Thank you Gareth :y :y
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Statistics cannot be relied upon to paint an accurate picture. For example, a very high percentage of pedestrians are run down on pedestrian crossings --- does that make the crossings more dangerous than anywhere else on the road ??? No -- it's just that many more use the crossings in the first place!!!!!
I would also add that, yes the police drivers ( on the whole) are better trained and / or experienced .... but the highway is FULL of other idiots who are basically accidents waiting to happen .... emergency vehicles are often where they aren't expected to be and how other drivers react is instrumental in whether there is an accident or not.
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10-15 years ago I would have said that the traffic police were the best trained drivers in the world. As a former Special Constable I have had the privilege of spending time on attachment to the Traffic Division and being the observer in traffic cars (Senators) on the way to shouts, and I'm sure those guys (and the ladies) can see round corners and can see into the future, because their driving was absolutely fantastic. (At the time I was heavily involved in advanced driver training as an IAM observer, so I had some idea what I was looking at.) I also have to say that I spent considerable time with ordinary coppers as well, mostly in Escorts and Maestros, and I certainly wouldn't have lent my car to some of them, because they were dreadful. Unfortunately as well as being awful drivers they thought they were in an episode of Starsky and Hutch, so I've had some terrifying experiences in police cars.
Since then I understand that things have changed. The Traffic Divisions have gone, for a start (replaced by those nasty little yellow boxes, but don't get me started on them!). The five-week basic course, to qualify as a panda driver, has I gather been replaced by a series of one-hour sessions carried out over a few weeks at your local police station, so the standard there is going to be even lower than before, and the training for the high-speed pursuit drivers has also been severely diluted. Couple this with what appears, now I'm back in Civvy Street, to be a much more aggressive attitude on the part of at least some police drivers, and it's easy to see how that could lead to more accidents.
Yes they have a difficult job to do - I've been with them and seen them doing it - but some of them seem to regard themselves as above the law. Unfortunately some of them seem to think they're above the laws of physics as well, but whether you're a copper or a civilian your tyres have only got so much grip on the road...
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Statistics cannot be relied upon to paint an accurate picture. For example, a very high percentage of pedestrians are run down on pedestrian crossings --- does that make the crossings more dangerous than anywhere else on the road ??? No -- it's just that many more use the crossings in the first place!!!!!
I would also add that, yes the police drivers ( on the whole) are better trained and / or experienced .... but the highway is FULL of other idiots who are basically accidents waiting to happen .... emergency vehicles are often where they aren't expected to be and how other drivers react is instrumental in whether there is an accident or not.
The voice of great wisdom and balance for which, on bended knee, I thank you HC :y :y :y
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To be fair guys, all excellent points, and all are valid. As i said previously, i`m fully behind ALL emergency services, in respects to the hard - sometimes dirty, stressful work they do to keep us safe. I suppose its the same as any profession, the minority get the majority a bad name through their actions.
Largecol, you obviously saw a police officer carrying out an illegal manoeuvre - did you take the trouble to report them? If not, then you only have yourself to take issue with.
Indeed i did report an unmarked Skoda RS racing a full-liveried Volvo (twice between 2 roundabouts on a dual carriageway - i gave full details of time, location and (since they came past twice i had time) both registrations, that incident occurred over 6 months ago. Never had any feedback since . . . . . :-X
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To be fair guys, all excellent points, and all are valid. As i said previously, i`m fully behind ALL emergency services, in respects to the hard - sometimes dirty, stressful work they do to keep us safe. I suppose its the same as any profession, the minority get the majority a bad name through their actions.
Largecol, you obviously saw a police officer carrying out an illegal manoeuvre - did you take the trouble to report them? If not, then you only have yourself to take issue with.
Indeed i did report an unmarked Skoda RS racing a full-liveried Volvo (twice between 2 roundabouts on a dual carriageway - i gave full details of time, location and (since they came past twice i had time) both registrations, that incident occurred over 6 months ago. Never had any feedback since . . . . . :-X
They used to do some pursuit training on the public roads. Is that still the case does anyone know?
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10-15 years ago I would have said that the traffic police were the best trained drivers in the world. As a former Special Constable I have had the privilege of spending time on attachment to the Traffic Division and being the observer in traffic cars (Senators) on the way to shouts, and I'm sure those guys (and the ladies) can see round corners and can see into the future, because their driving was absolutely fantastic. (At the time I was heavily involved in advanced driver training as an IAM observer, so I had some idea what I was looking at.) I also have to say that I spent considerable time with ordinary coppers as well, mostly in Escorts and Maestros, and I certainly wouldn't have lent my car to some of them, because they were dreadful. Unfortunately as well as being awful drivers they thought they were in an episode of Starsky and Hutch, so I've had some terrifying experiences in police cars.
Since then I understand that things have changed. The Traffic Divisions have gone, for a start (replaced by those nasty little yellow boxes, but don't get me started on them!). The five-week basic course, to qualify as a panda driver, has I gather been replaced by a series of one-hour sessions carried out over a few weeks at your local police station, so the standard there is going to be even lower than before, and the training for the high-speed pursuit drivers has also been severely diluted. Couple this with what appears, now I'm back in Civvy Street, to be a much more aggressive attitude on the part of at least some police drivers, and it's easy to see how that could lead to more accidents.
Yes they have a difficult job to do - I've been with them and seen them doing it - but some of them seem to regard themselves as above the law. Unfortunately some of them seem to think they're above the laws of physics as well, but whether you're a copper or a civilian your tyres have only got so much grip on the road...
I dont think that is the case for all forces, some I believe had have their standard traning increased but with greater restrictions imposed on drivers as well. Certainly our local force still has a traffic "rebranded to roads policing dept", the driver policy is also available publicy - see here
http://www.thamesvalley.police.uk/pub-policiesandprocedures-driver.pdf
I can't get the pursuits policy since I would imagine it talks about police tactics and therefore exemptions are available under the freedom of information act. They don't want the 'baddies' knowing all their tactics I suppose.
;)
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but some of them seem to regard themselves as above the law. ........
:-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
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you can see all of thames valleys antics on Sky 1 most evenings programs called Road Wars
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you can see all of thames valleys antics on Sky 1 most evenings programs called Road Wars
Such a sweeping generalisation!!!!!!!!
:o
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Only my view.
This kind of news gets your attention, and we all think what the hell is going on.
Yes the policeman that killed the girl really deserves to lose his license for life. But that is just a very small minority of the whole picture.
Statistics are a very dangerous thing to quote in my view, as they can be manipulated to fit what you want.
How many Newspapers are actually 'Newspapers' these days, with all the supplements in them, there more like magazines.
I feel its all about selling newspapers these days, not the actual fact of the 'news' par say. And there are a few out there that will knock something one day, yet praise them the next.
What about mobile phones ?.
Moms and dads will complain about drivers racing down their roads, and their worried for their kids safety, yet their also the same people using their mobile phones when their driving their kids to school, beggars belief, not only they risking their own kids lives, but risking others lives to - Where's the newspapers for that ?.
We have to put this into perspective with regards to the police.
If they don't pursue someone, they're in the wrong, if they do, they're in the wrong. It's a topic that will always cause passions to run high.
If it's a matter of life and death, reason to use higher than normal speeds, if there's a valid reason then maybe YES.
If someone's been burgled half an hour ago, the criminals vanished, and they can't get there for the next 20mins, then NO !.
The driving attitude of 'all' on the roads today needs changing, maybe then the roads would be safer.
Nuff said by me anyhow.
M
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OK BUT you have to consider ........
How many cars are there on the roads at one time?
How many miles do they cover in just one day?
How often are they having to drive at speed?
You also have to consider that everytime a police car (or any emergency services vehicle for that matter) is involved in an accident it is front page news if not nationally but locally.
Apart from the arsehole who acted like an idiot and knocked the girl down personally I think they do a tremendous job and having seen the training they have to go through be assured if they were not so well trained there would be one hell of a lot more!
Well said Gareth and I fully agree with you, The police do a fantastic Job :y
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OK BUT you have to consider ........
How many cars are there on the roads at one time?
How many miles do they cover in just one day?
How often are they having to drive at speed?
You also have to consider that everytime a police car (or any emergency services vehicle for that matter) is involved in an accident it is front page news if not nationally but locally.
Apart from the arsehole who acted like an idiot and knocked the girl down personally I think they do a tremendous job and having seen the training they have to go through be assured if they were not so well trained there would be one hell of a lot more!
Well said Gareth and I fully agree with you, The police do a fantastic Job :y
Well said yourself Maria, thank you :y :y
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It seems that they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. The officer on the street can't seem to win. The amount of vehicles, miles covered and time spent on the road means that some shunts will occur. It is the same for every large fleet. I totally agree that the non traffic officers are not as well trained, they don't need to be. Unfortunately plod is trying to do the job with one hand tied behind their back, I won't mention Health & Safety etc. The sentences imposed are a joke and are more to do with cost and prison space than justice. Traffic car numbers are being reduced, cameras are used to replace traffic cars, cameras can't spot drunk drivers, and have you ever heard of a case of tailgating ( my pet hate ) being brought using fixed camera evidence ?
Having said all that, there is no excuse for poor driving by people who should know better, up here a " Panda " driver has just been done, and rightly so, for parking on zig - zags whilst going to Greggs for a sandwich. Expensive sandwich.
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I think they do a very good job .in the nottinghamshire area the traffic cops use the T5 volvo's and if a perssute is dangerous they pull back and bring the helicopter in .most of the car theives are kids joyriding and they do not give a damn if they kill anybody or not .the traffic cops have a lot to put up with >:(
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To be fair guys, all excellent points, and all are valid. As i said previously, i`m fully behind ALL emergency services, in respects to the hard - sometimes dirty, stressful work they do to keep us safe. I suppose its the same as any profession, the minority get the majority a bad name through their actions.
Largecol, you obviously saw a police officer carrying out an illegal manoeuvre - did you take the trouble to report them? If not, then you only have yourself to take issue with.
Indeed i did report an unmarked Skoda RS racing a full-liveried Volvo (twice between 2 roundabouts on a dual carriageway - i gave full details of time, location and (since they came past twice i had time) both registrations, that incident occurred over 6 months ago. Never had any feedback since . . . . . :-X
Largecol you have identified one of the issues about modern day policing, there is not two way commuinication all of the time; you expected to, and rightly so, get an explanation for the officers driving. Whether it be driver training, responding (they do not need to use blues and twos to utilise the exemptions, like the horn they are warning instruments and sirens should not be used during the hours of darkness) or was it two officers acting illegally, outside of force policy and irresponsibly. You did not receive an explanation for whatever reason, and understandably your feelings are one of what appears to be resentment (maybe slight, I don't know) and a marred image of the police service as a whole, despite having support and praise for them generally.
Your experience Largecol, possibly, is representative of a large proportion of the uk public and this is impacting on the public perception of the police.
A change in how the management within the police view and implement effective performance measures will take the pressure of officers to achieve quantifiable key performance indicators (KPI).
This, together with effective challenges of unacceptable and/ or inappropriate behaviour, by officers, should redirect the scales in favour of quality of service. There is a lot of support for the police, managers need to embrace this support and nurture it.
Unfortunately, KPI's are laid down by the home office from government, but that's another debate for a cold long wet rainy day !!
::)
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Statistics are a very dangerous thing to quote in my view, as they can be manipulated to fit what you want.
Agreed, and the police themselves have become very good at manipulating statistics, for example to justify carpet-bombing the country with cameras and speeding tickets.
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There is a lot of support for the police, managers need to embrace this support and nurture it.
There WAS a lot of support for the police, but it's dwindled now. I make no secret of the fact that I have very little time for the police, but for 14 years I had so much time for the police that I gave up a lot of that time to wear the uniform and serve alongside them out on the streets. (I have a long service medal to prove it!) Now, if they've lost MY support what do they think has happened to their support from the general public, who at the best of times may have regarded them as something of a necessary evil?
Okay, people argue that it's not the fault of the police when prolific burglars are let off with suspended sentences, etc etc, and this is quite true. However, it IS the fault of the police when they don't bother to come out when your house is burgled or your car stolen, you're just given a crime reference number over the phone by a civilian employee. It IS their fault when they don't bother to investigate burglar alarms which have been set off in houses and business premises. It IS their fault when they don't seem to be interested in protecting us from society's low-lifes yet pursue you to the end of the Earth to get their sixty quid when you've done 34 in a 30.
They could start by dropping the idea of 'managers'. They're not running a branch of Boots, they're a uniformed service which is supposed to be protecting us. They even refer to 'customers'. Customers! I never had customers, I swore an oath to protect the Queen's subjects. 'Customers' are people who have a choice whether they use your services, but people have no choice about using the services of the police - they're either forced into contact with the police because someone has committed an offence against them, or they're brought in in handcuffs.
When I joined the police in 1980 the overriding ethos, right from the Chief Constable down to me, was that we were there to serve the public. By the time I left 14 years later I was starting to get the impression, which has grown stronger over the years I've been a civilian again, that the police are there mainly to serve the police.
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I used to have more respect for the Police than I do now, I never see any around these days, where are they?
I remember them turning up after I called them after a break in near where I used to live, another woken up person caught the burglar - I saw the chase from the comfort of a phone box. Police turned up in a couple of minutes.
I called while the crim was still bumburglaring a laundarette, ran to nearest phone.
I kept away as I was armed for self defence.
Police were good here.
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I used to have more respect for the Police than I do now, I never see any around these days, where are they?
I remember them turning up after I called them after a break in near where I used to live, another woken up person caught the burglar - I saw the chase from the comfort of a phone box. Police turned up in a couple of minutes.
I called while the crim was still bumburglaring a laundarette, ran to nearest phone.
I kept away as I was armed for self defence.
Police were good here.
at the station, filling in paperwork explaining why they entered a pursuit :P
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I used to have more respect for the Police than I do now, I never see any around these days, where are they?
I remember them turning up after I called them after a break in near where I used to live, another woken up person caught the burglar - I saw the chase from the comfort of a phone box. Police turned up in a couple of minutes.
I called while the crim was still bumburglaring a laundarette, ran to nearest phone.
I kept away as I was armed for self defence.
Police were good here.
Theyre All At Hindlip Hall Martin Doing Training Courses :y
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Rather than always picking on these guys, why don't we (as a country) support the people trying to uphold the law in difficult circumstances.
Couldn't agree more :y
While i agree with you chaps in principal, regarding the fleet cars and numbers on the road etc, these guys supposed to be highly trained advanced drivers, not just your average sales rep handed mondeo keys and told to hit the roads.
Dont get me wrong i`ve every respect for all the emerency services (not just the boys in blue) and the difficult jobs they ALL do, but perhaps, just perhaps there should be a little more accountability when they should be abiding by the same rules of the road as we all have to?
Again, i`m NOT having a pop at them, but some of the `manouvres` i`ve seen with vehicles obviously not responding to a `situation` leaves alot to be desired, and i feel if i`d been spotted doing the same on a public road i would have been relieved of my licence a long time ago. :-/
I'm no expert, but was under the impression that only traffic had the advanced training. Std PC Plod driving a Focus panda may well have little extra driver training.
Also, remember some of the most experienced high speed drivers are racing drivers, and they make mistakes ;).
Yes, the police are highly trained, invariably more so than the people they are chasing, which is why its more likely the bad guys stuff it more often than plod...
Indeed TB :y :y
In Kent many PC's are at 'basic' driving level, which means they cannot respond to any call other than driving as a civilian would, obeying the speed restrictions, stopping at red lights, etc, along with not being permitted to use the two's & blue's whilst in motion, and only using the blue lights when stationery protecting the scene, or dealing with an incident. But every shift should have at least one 'standard' trained driver on duty.
The 'standard' trained PC's can respond to calls using the blue & two's and, as has been already stated, are allowed certain exemptions under the Road Traffic Act when responding to an emergency situation, but are still held responsible when things 'go wrong'.
The Advanced 'A' drivers only are permitted to enter into high speed pursuits, which their training has given them the tools to do. However, they are still held responsible in law when 'things go wrong'.
Overall police officers have to do a very difficult job, where life or death situations can arise, with crucial speedy decisions having to be made, to give assistance to the public. Sometimes things go wrong, although the PC has just been trying to do their job to the best of their ability. 8-) 8-)
Life is not perfect, even for police officers!! ::) ::) :D ;)
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Indeed TB :y :y
In Kent many PC's are at 'basic' driving level, which means they cannot respond to any call other than driving as a civilian would, obeying the speed restrictions, stopping at red lights, etc, along with not being permitted to use the two's & blue's whilst in motion, and only using the blue lights when stationery protecting the scene, or dealing with an incident. But every shift should have at least one 'standard' trained driver on duty.
The 'standard' trained PC's can respond to calls using the blue & two's and, as has been already stated, are allowed certain exemptions under the Road Traffic Act when responding to an emergency situation, but are still held responsible when things 'go wrong'.
The Advanced 'A' drivers only are permitted to enter into high speed pursuits, which their training has given them the tools to do. However, they are still held responsible in law when 'things go wrong'.
Overall police officers have to do a very difficult job, where life or death situations can arise, with crucial speedy decisions having to be made, to give assistance to the public. Sometimes things go wrong, although the PC has just been trying to do their job to the best of their ability. 8-) 8-)
Life is not perfect, even for police officers!! ::) ::) :D ;)
Most of the Police drivers do a good enough job, (the motorcyclists tend to better for obvious reasons - they don't want to get hurt), but I often feel they could do with some real racing experience.
It is all well being 'trained' to drive at speed, and to control a car on a skid pan, but there is nothing like a real chase, as the adrenalin rush that follows can make the most reasoned and level-headed Cop do silly things - sometimes with fatal consequences. Those with racing experience are well used to this effect, and so know how to deal with it, sometimes over long distances, and don't let it cloud their judgement.
To illustrate this, some years ago I was out on my bike (a very well fettled 350 LC Yamaha) early one Saturday morning , and was enjoying the fast, sweeping curves and long straights on the A272 between Petersfield and the A31 at Winchester. (This was before they spoilt it with silly roundabouts and the like).
Anyhow, as I came into Winchester itself, I was aware of a Police bike coming up rapidly behind me, so as I was entering a 30 limit I slowed down to 30 MPH, and just cruised along trying to look innocent. It was a good try, but I got pulled over all the same, and the Copper was shaking so violently with adrenalin that I had to put his bike (a Police Norton) on it's stand for him and sit him down on a nearby bench!
It turned out that he had been chasing me all the way from Petersfield, and had been hitting 120 plus on the straights, but every time we got to the bendy bits he 'had to slow down in the interests of safety'. He admitted that at one point he thought he had lost me, (just after the East Meon Hut), but he could still smell the Castrol R from my bike, so he knew I was somewhere ahead. ;D
Once he calmed down he gave me a good bollocking, and was going to throw the book at me, but thankfully I managed to persuade him that he was probably a greater risk to himself than I was. He also gave me a lecture about using tyres with 'not for highway use' stamped on them, but that is another story. ;D ;D ;D
NN
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There is a lot of support for the police, managers need to embrace this support and nurture it.
There WAS a lot of support for the police, but it's dwindled now. I make no secret of the fact that I have very little time for the police, but for 14 years I had so much time for the police that I gave up a lot of that time to wear the uniform and serve alongside them out on the streets. (I have a long service medal to prove it!) Now, if they've lost MY support what do they think has happened to their support from the general public, who at the best of times may have regarded them as something of a necessary evil?
Okay, people argue that it's not the fault of the police when prolific burglars are let off with suspended sentences, etc etc, and this is quite true. However, it IS the fault of the police when they don't bother to come out when your house is burgled or your car stolen, you're just given a crime reference number over the phone by a civilian employee. It IS their fault when they don't bother to investigate burglar alarms which have been set off in houses and business premises. It IS their fault when they don't seem to be interested in protecting us from society's low-lifes yet pursue you to the end of the Earth to get their sixty quid when you've done 34 in a 30.
They could start by dropping the idea of 'managers'. They're not running a branch of Boots, they're a uniformed service which is supposed to be protecting us. They even refer to 'customers'. Customers! I never had customers, I swore an oath to protect the Queen's subjects. 'Customers' are people who have a choice whether they use your services, but people have no choice about using the services of the police - they're either forced into contact with the police because someone has committed an offence against them, or they're brought in in handcuffs.
When I joined the police in 1980 the overriding ethos, right from the Chief Constable down to me, was that we were there to serve the public. By the time I left 14 years later I was starting to get the impression, which has grown stronger over the years I've been a civilian again, that the police are there mainly to serve the police.
Very well put Cyber. Policing has been overtaken by politics, target hunting and economics. the public they are sworn to protect have become an obstacle to all of the above and the police officers themselves have become jaded by being blocked at every avenue from actually doing the job.
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The police are being destroyed from the top - a writer in the Daily Mail said "One of the most dangerous organisations in Britain is ACPO - the Association of Chief Police Officers." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/columnists/article-418721/Now-chief-constables-work-soppy-liberals.html. The Daily Mail! Surely if any paper is going to support the police it's going to be the Mail! They've really lost it if the paper of middle-class Middle England describes Chief Constables as "One of the most dangerous organisations in Britain".
Mind you, they don't spend all their time remodelling the police along the lines of 1960's sociology lecturers, they manage to find time to feather their own nests. How many of you know that ACPO has set up a private company, currently turning over 18 million a year, doing things like selling information from the Police National Computer (charging £70 for information which costs them 60p to obtain) and training speed camera operators? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1145581/Body-charge-UK-policing-policy-18m-year-brand-charging-public-70-60p-criminal-records-check.html
How can anyone respect an organisation run by these people?